Thread: Berthoud Photo/Conditions Thread (2009-2010)

^^^^ Exactly. That shoulder's really a totally different story than the gut in the middle.

Marshal... is your phone working?

Tension release may or may not have happened as the aspect turns a corner. And a thin corner at that. If the tension on the slope was released then it's a great line selection.

Just looking for other opinions, not saying that it's terrible but...... The lines in the shadow just off the point and next to the slide seem to be flirting with disaster (they may have been there before the slide). In my more conservative opinion, I probably would not have skied this slope on this day with the current conditions.

I watched the three guys, who you can see at the top in the photo, drop in and ski the line, looked pretty sweet.

I think this would be a great photo to discuss in an avy class. There's a lot going on there.

The shoulder may have very similar wind load as the area under the cornice, that would depend on the lee side and the wind direction. Just because there isn't a cornice doesn't mean that there isn't substantial wind loading.

I just wonder whether the tension would be relieved around the thin corner. I know snow is ductile but...

Originally Posted by KillingCokes

The shoulder may have very similar wind load as the area under the cornice, that would depend on the lee side and the wind direction. Just because there isn't a cornice doesn't mean that there isn't substantial wind loading.

I just wonder whether the tension would be relieved around the thin corner. I know snow is ductile but...

both of which things you could actually only tell be being there, and not by looking at a picture on the internet or from across valley.

seemingly, those standing up there had confidence in their ability to gauge these things.

True and True. I might have to go up and investigate for myself

that shoulder is also less steep than no name proper ...

True, you need to be there to make a definitive decision....but based on the day, avy level (considerable at the time), the fact there is a crown next to your line, and that on sunday there were two large avalanches on similar easterly aspects above treeline two drainages to the north...

I would vote its a bad idea. But we've all seen way too many bad idea lines on Berthoud pass.

Originally Posted by fastfroggy

that shoulder is also less steep than no name proper ...

I was just thinking the same thing. Substantially less steep.

As far as there being a crown line, in many cases this is a positive in my opinion. I'm not saying it is in this instance but in many situations after the area slidse the relief of tension on the slope makes the margins safe for turns

We watched that group drop in. I was pretty amazed by their bold line on that day. I realize that the aspect is a bit different, but from afar it looked bold. My only beef with that group is the choice to take a dog down. WTF, the poor guy took a LONG time to get down and he cut different slopes that a skier would normally choose not to ski. Was the dog beeping? Leave your dog home on days like that, its irresponsible.

I think a lot of people ski that section of No Name under the impression that right along the shoulder rarely (if ever) slides. Even the old guidebook to the Pass says something along those lines. However, about two weeks ago, there was a pretty major natural slide right in the middle of that shoulder....

Originally Posted by adrenalated

I think a lot of people ski that section of No Name under the impression that right along the shoulder rarely (if ever) slides. Even the old guidebook to the Pass says something along those lines. However, about two weeks ago, there was a pretty major natural slide right in the middle of that shoulder....

That can be a good thing. Cleaning up the mess that is our snowpack.

Here's the pic again so it's on this page

id call it pretty bad line selection, even if historically that slope doesnt slide all that much, the lower concavity that has two big tracks going into it looks to me like a primo trigger point. And even though its much less steep up there it's still in that crucial 28 to 35 area (i believe).

Fritz-looks as if the tracks going into that concavity might be those of that snowboarder who told us it was uber safe up on no name on saturday?

^^hot dam that looks boney. shallow snowpack....be careful out there kids....

Originally Posted by guest

Dude, we've spent roughly ten hours in the same car.

I was laughing at his line as I recently saw you post a pic of him (in manpris no less).

^^^^
Franz sums up most of my thoughts well. Yes, less steep than the main face, but still in that prime avy slope angle window. Likely still a fair bit of loading. It's maybe a NE aspect - that's really in the same boat as E. And the rollover by the rock outcropping would be a prime trigger point.

I'd need to be there firsthand to stamp it as a poor choice, but given all the other pieces, I probably wouldn't have even gone over there in the first place. My approach is more of going after things I have a high level of confidence will be safe, with a willingness to back off, as opposed to "I'm pretty sure this won't be safe, but let's go take a look". And I think you can have a pretty good idea of what's safe before you even put skins on the skis if you've been getting out regularly, know the terrain, follow weather & avy trends, etc. - but still willing to modify as needed once actually out on the slope and looking at the pack firsthand.

the 3 people in the picture are ColoSkier and his buddies, they backed off. The track down the gut was totally that snowboarder we picked up!

rad. interesting aside to throw in to the conversation, first thing written on todays avy report is

Monday: Skier caught in cornice fall / avalanche on No Name, Berthoud Pass. Carried ~500 vertical feet, no burial, no serious injuries.

'nuff said.

I'm not saying that I would ski it, just thinking about why it didn't slide.

I might go up and check it out just to dig in the crown and the gut of the shoulder. That might be an interesting comparison.

Originally Posted by guest

Dude, we've spent roughly ten hours in the same car.

I've really nothing to add as my camera battery was defunct. Lo siento. Anyway, good day up there Saturday, thanks friends!

Ah yes, how could I forget the Daywalker mix sessions. Glad to see you're getting out.

I'll add my 2cents. We saw a single line on No Name Fri am, thought it was pretty aggressive given the snowpack so far this season. To see the follow up in this pic speaks to the lemming dynamic that occurs on BP. Did these others ski it just because somebody else did? Fair assumption givin my experience in the past.

As for evaluating the line itself, too many convexities and trigger points for me to be comfortable skiing that thing. This has been a season of remote releases, thin snowpack and obvious trigger points. I'll pass. But hey, they did their own eval, skied and walked away.


I remember skiing Sniktau with Killingcokes a few seasons back, when we dug a pit on the S Face and backed out, unhappy with the depth of the sugar layer we found. Guessing whether the snowpack on top of it would bridge was a risk we didn't want to take. We skied a safer line to the basin and watched 3 skiers approach and drop the very line we had just backed out of. We questioned their judgement, and shook our heads as they skied over to us. Turned out to be Spencer and couple other guys from CAIC, folks who know their snow science a hell of a lot better than I ever will. Our opinions changed quickly. Only you ultimately can make judgements for yourself.

I agree with Woolbury's comment about the "lemming dynamic".

I was out on Sunday, saw some peeps accross and above where we were skinning, and we stopped to watch as the first person stood there and let other people go in front of him. Eventually he skied down, but I couldn't help to wonder why he finally decided to ski down. Was he now confident that the slope wouldn't release because 4 other people had skied it? Was he waiting for perfect light so warren miller could film him? Or was he just not confident in the situation he placed himself in and he was second guessing his decision?

If I get to the top of a line and I start to question my safety, I back off ASAP. If you are still 50/50 on your decision to ski the slope after you transformed into "skier mode", you probably didn't make an educated decision, and you are rolling the dice. I think I watched the "lemming dynamic" unfold right before my eyes on Sunday.

As for the lines in the picture that were skied safely... Not so sure I would have skied them on that day, but I wasn't up there with those people. I'd also be pretty fearful that if the slope did break while I was skiing it, where would I try and exit for safety? Wouldn't be too fun to take a ride over those rocks on the left just below everyone elses big right hand turn.

On another note, we dug a pit on an E/NE aspect in current creek and it wasn't good. The snowpack was about 110 cm deep and the bottom 40cm was all sugar.

Originally Posted by Dobish

the 3 people in the picture are ColoSkier and his buddies, they backed off. The track down the gut was totally that snowboarder we picked up!

The three people in the pic dropped a few seconds after the pic was taken. Must not have been the guys you are thinking of.

Here's another angle of No Name:

is this from last jan?