I don't believe anything I read anymore...

**NorthernSpotted...** · 10-03-2009, 06:16 PM

...or is it, anymore, I don't believe anything I read?

Really, I don't believe much of what I don't know to be true first hand. It's a real fucking problem. I've basically given up trusting all the sources I've been taught to trust, you know, like TV and the internet. Now, I know you're not all in the same camp as me, but how do you deal with this shit? How do you know who's bullshit you can trust and who's you can't? I don't have time to know everything. Some of you seem to, though. How do you do it?

**bklyn** · 10-03-2009, 06:37 PM

You don't need to know everything... you just need to be able to recognize bullshit when you see it.

**Rubicon** · 10-03-2009, 06:58 PM

Learn to separate commentary and analysis from factual reporting. Use the internet and TV to keep up with current events and get your education from books.

Smokey McPole · 10-03-2009, 07:02 PM

I've been relying on the I Ching a lot lately.

**Rasputin** · 10-03-2009, 07:28 PM

**NorthernSpotted...** · 10-03-2009, 07:37 PM

Thanks, Raspy. It's good to know one of you kooks is speaking my language.

**highangle** · 10-03-2009, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Rubicon

Learn to separate commentary and analysis from factual reporting. Use the internet and TV to keep up with current events and get your education from books.

i really don't think a lolzcow like you needs to be givin advice about how to separate fact from bullshit

**NorthernSpotted...** · 10-03-2009, 11:54 PM

You're the one who's bullshit, highangle. I bet that's technically a steer.

**tone capone** · 10-04-2009, 12:06 AM

Really, I don't believe much of what I don't know to be true first hand. It's a real fucking problem. I've basically given up trusting all the sources I've been taught to trust, you know, like TV and the internet. Now, I know you're not all in the same camp as me, but how do you deal with this shit? How do you know who's bullshit you can trust and who's you can't? I don't have time to know everything.

/word buddy, word.

**mock vomit** · 10-04-2009, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by NorthernSpotted...

...or is it, anymore, I don't believe anything I read?

Really, I don't believe much of what I don't know to be true first hand. It's a real fucking problem. I've basically given up trusting all the sources I've been taught to trust, you know, like TV and the internet. Now, I know you're not all in the same camp as me, but how do you deal with this shit? How do you know who's bullshit you can trust and who's you can't? I don't have time to know everything. Some of you seem to, though. How do you do it?

This whole thing up here ^^^ is a BIG part of the problem in the first place!!!

You see, the whole way we gather information about events, then sift thru to glean facts, whilst trying to see any reporting bias is all so OLD MEDIA. [/Mr. Burns voice}

All the hip new kids are rocking NEW MEDIA now!!!! You are suppose to find a news source that espouses the same political beliefs you have, even if those beliefs have no basis in reality, then you can just agree with everything you are told. It helps make you are 1,000% sure everything you repeat to others is gospel, and so then everyone thinks you are super smart 'n stuff too. Soooooooo much easier than that OLD MEDIA and facts crap.

You're welcome.

**NorthernSpotted...** · 10-04-2009, 08:22 AM

^^^

Yeah, I guess I should have posted this in the "WTF is wrong with America thread..."

Guess what, brah? Even old media is going new media. There isn't much purely fact-based reporting left, at least when it comes to matters of politics. Everything is spun or selectively reported to shine up (w/shinola of course) one particular side. I don't want to read the WSJ and the NYT everyday just to be sure I'm getting all the facts. It's just too fucking much. These days, I am skeptical of everything I read/hear in any sort of news media. Shit, I find it hard to form an opinion that I trust. Do you know how frustrating that is? I don't want to, but sometimes I feel like giving up. That's what my OP was about, whining. Yes, I was whining.

**Downbound Train** · 10-04-2009, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by mocwvmit

This whole thing up here ^^^ is a BIG part of the problem in the first place!!!

You see, the whole way we gather information about events, then sift thru to glean facts, whilst trying to see any reporting bias is all so OLD MEDIA. [/Mr. Burns voice}

All the hip new kids are rocking NEW MEDIA now!!!! You are suppose to find a news source that espouses the same political beliefs you have, even if those beliefs have no basis in reality, then you can just agree with everything you are told. It helps make you are 1,000% sure everything you repeat to others is gospel, and so then everyone thinks you are super smart 'n stuff too. Soooooooo much easier than that OLD MEDIA and facts crap.

You're welcome.

It sure was nice for you when the only available viewpoint was your viewpoint. The free market works. Even in media. Too bad for the left. Don't worry. The right's window of freedom in the press will soon be closed by our oppressive government/industrial complex...And the left, champions of the first amendment, will be glad.

**splat** · 10-04-2009, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

It sure was nice for you when the only available viewpoint was your viewpoint. The free market works. Even in media. Too bad for the left. Don't worry. The right's window of freedom in the press will soon be closed by our oppressive government/industrial complex...And the left, champions of the first amendment, will be glad.

I think the question was whether anyone can tell the truth anymore due to the free market's marketability factors taking precedent.

As Jer indicated, throwing coins, sticks and banking on religious prophecy might as well be the news these days. It's as if they pull headlines out of a hat every morning based on what mind control conditioning each side wants to project on the masses. The terror warning color for today is....

**Downbound Train** · 10-04-2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by splat

I think the question was whether anyone can tell the truth anymore due to the free market's marketability factors taking precedent.

As Jer indicated, throwing coins, sticks and banking on religious prophecy might as well be the news these days. It's as if they pull headlines out of a hat every morning based on what mind control conditioning each side wants to project on the masses. The terror warning color for today is....

It comes down to core beliefs. For example, I believe in free markets, and a very limited government version of the constitution. I believe what I read that re-enforces those beliefs. There are no "facts" anyone could show me that would change my mind on my core beliefs.

I realize "facts" can come from anywhere and everywhere to help or hurt any position. In that regard "facts" are over rated because you can never get all the "facts" on anything. You can never be fully informed.
You rely on your core beliefs to guide you. Show me miles of documents that show government run healthcare is a good idea and I will only scoff at you. Why? Because my core belief is that Government run anything that is not specifically required in the constitution is wrong, Period. It really doesn't matter if gov or private works better, because one is right and one is wrong.

The only victims of media/education system bias from either side are the people who are to dim or uninterested to have core political beliefs, and those who were never exposed to both sides. Unfortunately, for people not paying attention, the default reality is liberalism not conservatism.

**Triage** · 10-04-2009, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

It comes down to core beliefs. For example, I believe in free markets, and a very limited government version of the constitution. I believe what I read that re-enforces those beliefs. There are no "facts" anyone could show me that would change my mind on my core beliefs.

I realize "facts" can come from anywhere and everywhere to help or hurt any position. In that regard "facts" are over rated because you can never get all the "facts" on anything. You can never be fully informed.
You rely on your core beliefs to guide you. Show me miles of documents that show government run healthcare is a good idea and I will only scoff at you. Why? Because my core belief is that Government run anything that is not specifically required in the constitution is wrong, Period. It really doesn't matter if gov or private works better, because one is right and one is wrong.

The only victims of media/education system bias from either side are the people who are to dim or uninterested to have core political beliefs, and those who were never exposed to both sides. Unfortunately, for people not paying attention, the default reality is liberalism not conservatism.

Meh. Based on what we’ve seen, your understanding of economics and the attending free market is so limited that what you are describing—in your case—is a religion, not a principle.

And, I can prove it! In thread after thread, you have blamed regulators for regulating poorly and for ignoring warning signs that banks and investors were growing reckless. You have said that if regulators had only done their job then none of this would have happened. A true core value free market acolyte would have never blamed a lack of government regulation for the economic crisis, which makes you a dim-witted-fraud.

**Spats** · 10-04-2009, 01:23 PM

Media is captured by its advertisers.

I have a Wall Street Journal article from 1997 where publishers of all the major magazines (e.g. Time) cheerfully admit that their major advertisers vet all the magazine's content, with veto power over content. Every single article.

That's right: nothing appears in Time, Newsweek, or any other "news" magazine without first being approved by Ford, GM, Bank of America, Chevron, BP, Citibank, Pfizer, Microsoft...and so on.

I believe that the way to read media is to find sources which have a known ideological bias, and take that bias into account. That way, instead of depending purely on "mainstream" sources, which impartially defend all of US corporate hegemony, you will find sources willing to address SOME part of the issues with the current power structure. (Probably while defending others, but that's your responsibility to figure out which.)

And sometimes you get lucky and find news sources that are biased in a pro-freedom way.

News in general is too large a topic, but here are some good sources for financial news and information:
http://www.zerohedge.com
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com
http://market-ticker.denninger.net

**Downbound Train** · 10-04-2009, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Triage

Meh. Based on what we’ve seen, your understanding of economics and the attending free market is so limited that what you are describing—in your case—is a religion, not a principle.

And, I can prove it! In thread after thread, you have blamed regulators for regulating poorly and for ignoring warning signs that banks and investors were growing reckless. You have said that if regulators had only done their job then none of this would have happened. A true core value free market acolyte would have never blamed a lack of government regulation for the economic crisis, which makes you a dim-witted-fraud.

Does the constitution allow for a 100% free market? No. It does not mandate pure survival of the fittest caplitalism.

To your other point, it's not a religion. I'd say it is more related to generic blind faith. Everyone has it. Since you can not have every bit of information and know every unintended consiquence of government action, you MUST have the same blind faith in government action that I do in limited government and as free a market as possible. The problem with your perspective is that you can fool yourself into thinking you understand what will be the full long term result of government action.

**Triage** · 10-04-2009, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

Does the constitution allow for a 100% free market? No. It does not mandate pure survival of the fittest caplitalism.

To your other point, it's not a religion. I'd say it is more related to generic blind faith. Everyone has it. Since you can not have every bit of information and know every unintended consiquence of government action, you MUST have the same blind faith in government action that I do in limited government and as free a market as possible. The problem with your perspective is that you can fool yourself into thinking you understand what will be the full long term result of government action.

Your defense is rather feeble, yes? Even Milton Friedman became increasingly focused on policy rather than inanely arguing as you put it, "It really doesn't matter if gov or private works better, because one is right and one is wrong."

Now you are arguing that, "[I] MUST have the same blind faith in government action that [you] do in limited government and as free a market as possible" which is simply false. I have argued against the twin dangers overarching government (i.e. socialism) on one end of the spectrum and monopolistic (i.e. oligopolists) on the other.

It's a real balancing act, one that Milton Friedman and a host of other classical economists understand through a dialectical thought process that seeks to integrate multiple viewpoints rather than religiously relying on self reinforcing points of view.

The fact is, much of what government does actually works as it should, sometimes on a frighteningly large scale, but ultimately, I believe that both the corporation and the government should be held accountable for its failures.

**Phill** · 10-04-2009, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

It comes down to core beliefs. For example, I believe in free markets, and a very limited government version of the constitution. I believe what I read that re-enforces those beliefs. There are no "facts" anyone could show me that would change my mind on my core beliefs.

I realize "facts" can come from anywhere and everywhere to help or hurt any position. In that regard "facts" are over rated because you can never get all the "facts" on anything. You can never be fully informed.
You rely on your core beliefs to guide you. Show me miles of documents that show government run healthcare is a good idea and I will only scoff at you. Why? Because my core belief is that Government run anything that is not specifically required in the constitution is wrong, Period. It really doesn't matter if gov or private works better, because one is right and one is wrong.

Holy shit. That is fucking scary.

**wcf3** · 10-04-2009, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by NorthernSpotted...

...or is it, anymore, I don't believe anything I read?

Really, I don't believe much of what I don't know to be true first hand. It's a real fucking problem. I've basically given up trusting all the sources I've been taught to trust, you know, like TV and the internet. Now, I know you're not all in the same camp as me, but how do you deal with this shit? How do you know who's bullshit you can trust and who's you can't? I don't have time to know everything. Some of you seem to, though. How do you do it?

This is really a big subject, but I can see how it comes up now. The many media sources one has these days, all blaring different bits and pieces of a story, attaching more or less spin by selecting different parts of the story to underline, disguising opinions as facts, interviewing individuals with a particular viewpoint and implying their opinion or version of events is generally accepted can lead one to think that there is no "truth" or "reality" to be found out there.

This differs from the pre-internet, pre-cable TV days, when most people got their information about the world from a couple of TV news shows, a local newspaper and possibly one of a couple of national news magazines. These outlets, besides holding to certain common 'journalistic standards', tended for a number of reasons to have fairly consistent representations of events, which tended to reinforce people's impression that they were getting a well vetted, non-partisan and unbiased version of events.

One can certainly decry the lack of 'journalistic standards' (attempting to vett facts, keep opinion and reporting seperate, look at both sides of an issue, etc.) in the current media, but to think that one was better informed by the limited number of media channels of the old days is, I believe, misguided. If one considers how often 'facts' get revised in other areas with generally much higher standards for establishing whether something is a fact or not (i.e. the legal or scientific communities) one can hardly expect journalism to do much better.

I agree with Spats, that probably the best method to get to the bottom of of a story is to try and find at least reasonably competent sources on different sides of a story, take the bias into account, weigh the different versions for credibility, then form an opinion. (Sort of a media version of the adversarial system practiced in the courts). Doesn't always lead to the 'truth', but at least one isn't as easily misguided by opinions masquerading as facts. Often enough, one finds oneself with a 'hung-jury' in one's own head, but that's probably better than uncritically accepting the version presented by a single source.

**highangle** · 10-04-2009, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by wcf3

This is really a big subject, but I can see how it comes up now. The many media sources one has these days, all blaring different bits and pieces of a story, attaching more or less spin by selecting different parts of the story to underline, disguising opinions as facts, interviewing individuals with a particular viewpoint and implying their opinion or version of events is generally accepted can lead one to think that there is no "truth" or "reality" to be found out there.

Pilate: "Quid est veritas?" (What is truth?)
Jesus: no answer

if Jesus was God He'da said: "Quisque creat suus veritatem proprium" (Each creates his own truth)

**Spats** · 10-04-2009, 03:44 PM

Good points, wcf3.

One other important fact to keep in mind: the truth is NEVER the average of the two most extreme "mainstream" positions. The truth is usually outside both, because all "mainstream" positions have been vetted and approved by Corporate America -- so if you assume the truth is near the middle, you've fallen into a very common trap.

**wcf3** · 10-04-2009, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Spats

Good points, wcf3.

One other important fact to keep in mind: the truth is NEVER the average of the two most extreme "mainstream" positions. The truth is usually outside both, because all "mainstream" positions have been vetted and approved by Corporate America -- so if you assume the truth is near the middle, you've fallen into a very common trap.

Too true. I lived in Europe for a long time back before the wall came down. It was interesting to compare the different flavors news depending on origin: US origin news (having various liberal/conservative spins, but all sharing a common US bias), western European news outlets with their own, local flavors of liberal/conservative spin, but all having a Euro spin that was different than the US and finally the news from the east block itself, which clearly followed the party line, but often delivered information you didn't get in the west.

**Hott Butt Mud** · 01-25-2012, 09:11 PM

OCCUPY POLYASS 2012!!!

**Downbound Train** · 04-27-2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by NorthernSpotted...

...or is it, anymore, I don't believe anything I read?

Really, I don't believe much of what I don't know to be true first hand. It's a real fucking problem. I've basically given up trusting all the sources I've been taught to trust....

Good idea.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...hool-Economics

...This economics book is only a microcosm of the indoctrination children are receiving in today’s public schools, as unionized teachers push a liberal-leaning agenda. Many textbooks fail to present students with both sides of an issue. Students are being pushed toward an education that demonizes free enterprise while advocating top-down government, deficit spending and class warfare. The continuation of this propaganda will create a youth so misinformed and clueless that they will have no choice but to turn to the government. And that is exactly what the liberals want.

That pretty well explains most of the lefties here.....Brainwashed

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