Thread: binding pull out..what to do

Hi.

I have a pair of Prophet 130's, the binding was pulled out of the right ski (FKS heel) and now I am wondering what my options are. Here are some pictures so that you can deliberate. The ski seems flush when you look at it up close, but from afar, when the light reflects off of the ski just right, you can see that the entire area between the holes is raised/bubbled up slightly. The wood is definitely a little bit softer in the small areas directly around each screw hole. The ski was originally mounted 2 or 3 cm back from "boot sole" recommended center on the ski. Should I mount a longer binding (PX 15) in the same spot, so that the holes are in front of and behind the existing pull out spot (helicoil the new holes for the PX binding to even reinforce the area further). Will the ski be strong enough after the binding pull out. What are some other options? Should I try to fill the holes with wood glue or epoxy?

Let me know what experience you have with this.






Link To Large Picture 1

Link To Large Picture 2

holy H-scroll batman! how about some thumbnails for those badboys eh?

Originally Posted by Adamantium

holy H-scroll batman! how about some thumbnails for those badboys eh?

sorry, fixed...thanks

helicoils should solve that.

Originally Posted by mntlion

helicoils should solve that.

do you think that mounting a Axial2 150 over the top of that area would put the new screws (heli-coiled of course) far enough away from the damaged holes?

heli coil the pulled out holes if you can and just re-use the bindings that it is drilled for>

10-15mm from any hole is usually far enough.

x2 on what mtnlion said

What's the consensus of FKS on fat skis these days? Bad idea? Bad idea on a weak-core ski?

For helicoils and the alternatives check out this thread:

[ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137073"]Helicoil info - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]

a little birdie just whispered in my ear that this was a super common problem on the 2008 line skis, so if you are the original owner w/ receipt, you might want to warranty them.

mntlion and marshal know their stuff. Still, if it were me, I'd play it safe and mount a different binding on there, preferably with >4 screws (helps prevent 2nd pullout) and also with a more spread-out hole pattern (helps prevent 2nd pullout AND snapping the ski). Like high-end 5-screw sally, etc. Bindings on fat skis (130mm underfoot) face higher torques on not-so-soft snow.

Likely does not matter exactly how you fill unused holes, as long as it's waterproof: epoxy fill, or epoxy some wood golf tees in there, or epoxy with steel wool "rebar" in it.

.

Originally Posted by BamBam_540

What's the consensus of FKS on fat skis these days? Bad idea? Bad idea on a weak-core ski?

Also interested in this. I've heard mixed opinions.

Originally Posted by DHogg

Also interested in this. I've heard mixed opinions.

Well for starters you will have to bend the 70mm break to fit.

Another approach.
holmenkol sells a pound in brass insert that works pretty damn good.
Basically you drill the hole out, pound in the insert, then the binding screw makes the insert expand into the core. The inserts have raised ridges on them that work like a barb on a fish hook, they go in, but don't come out. Also due to the size of the insert relative to the screw, you get triple the contact area. Any decent shop can order these for you, or may have them on hand.

Edited to add, as skis get wider, generally the cores are getting thiner to keep weight down. As a result shorter screws are necessary. Bindings with a wider mounting footprint (Duke or Jester type) will help to spread out the forces applied to the binding to a greater area.

Originally Posted by DHogg

Also interested in this. I've heard mixed opinions.

fks on praxis pow 136 = fat and rx 115 = not so fat X2 on both mounts at 1 cm apart pound the shit out of them -- good mount + good ski = cool runnin.

for binder pullout boy here is another option
If you lifted the area around the pulled heal mount, and it sounds like you did. Gizmo has a nice fix -- if your up to it.
1 revers your air compressor = vacum pump
2 mix up a batch of good epoxy
3 cut a hose and with vacum pump running place cut hose end over one pulled screw hole and put resin in other 3 holes. if core is wet run acetone through first to chase out h2o.
4 shut of compressor, don't suck all the resin out. check for resin penetration by clamping in center of area you should see some resin return to holes. jam I MEAN JAM glass roving in screw holes with non grease tool fill with resin corer with wax paper block top and bottom and clamp over night.
5 remount in repaired holes using 4.1 bit and epoxy.

Disclaimer don't try this at home. NEVER alter power equipment
be fuckin careful with vacum setup depending on the compressor and hose it can suck your flesh off right of to the bone, think uncontrolled home liposuction. so have someone stand by the power switch.

Originally Posted by samhop

fks on praxis pow 136 = fat and rx 115 = not so fat X2 on both mounts at 1 cm apart pound the shit out of them -- good mount + good ski = cool runnin.

for binder pullout boy here is another option
If you lifted the area around the pulled heal mount, and it sounds like you did. Gizmo has a nice fix -- if your up to it.
1 revers your air compressor = vacum pump
2 mix up a batch of good epoxy
3 cut a hose and with vacum pump running place cut hose end over one pulled screw hole and put resin in other 3 holes. if core is wet run acetone through first to chase out h2o.
4 shut of compressor, don't suck all the resin out. check for resin penetration by clamping in center of area you should see some resin return to holes. jam I MEAN JAM glass roving in screw holes with non grease tool fill with resin corer with wax paper block top and bottom and clamp over night.
5 remount in repaired holes using 4.1 bit and epoxy.

Disclaimer don't try this at home. NEVER alter power equipment
be fuckin careful with vacum setup depending on the compressor and hose it can suck your flesh off right of to the bone, think uncontrolled home liposuction. so have someone stand by the power switch.

wow..that sounds like it would work...but...wow....really intense.

Your vacuum idea got me to thinking though. I know that Gorilla glue doesn't have too many uses in skiing, since it expands and bubbles. However.. what if you were to wet the core of the ski where it is raised up. Then applied gorilla glue to the holes. Would the gorilla glue seek out the water in that area and make the wood much stronger in that area?

just a thought


Thanks for all the options so far. I am deliberation mode now!

Originally Posted by 123ski

wow..that sounds like it would work...but...wow....really intense.

Your vacuum idea got me to thinking though. I know that Gorilla glue doesn't have too many uses in skiing, since it expands and bubbles. However.. what if you were to wet the core of the ski where it is raised up. Then applied gorilla glue to the holes. Would the gorilla glue seek out the water in that area and make the wood much stronger in that area?

just a thought


Thanks for all the options so far. I am deliberation mode now!

Gorilla Glue is great for filling voids but the expanded foam is a weak link the resin or glue is jest there to hold the structural material together glass, carbon fiber, Kevlar, wood, --- less resin or glue is better that's what pre-preg and vacuum bagging is all about. the best solution is to reduce or eliminate the void. the ski core is structural not jest a core that is providing the base for 2 horizontal plains like end grain balsa core panel for boat building. so you are trying to re-adhere the internal structure not fill a void in a de-lamination. if it will take resin you might add some fine chopped glass if you are concerned about adding strength. the heal screw footprint on the fks is small enough that you probably don't have to be concerned about creating a "hard spot". This is an excepted method of repairing large de-lamination on cored structural panels.
you can do it this ant rocket science.

Originally Posted by samhop

Disclaimer don't try this at home. NEVER alter power equipment
be fuckin careful with vacum setup depending on the compressor and hose it can suck your flesh off right of to the bone, think uncontrolled home liposuction. so have someone stand by the power switch.

Originally Posted by samhop

...revers your air compressor = vacum pump...

Sweet. I can't believe I never thought of vacuum principle to get epoxy to flow. Duh. I have 4 skis gathering dust awaiting repairs and no more excuses now (well, I need to make it happen without a compressor). Thanks!

.

Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Sweet. I can't believe I never thought of vacuum principle to get epoxy to flow. Duh. I have 4 skis gathering dust awaiting repairs and no more excuses now (well, I need to make it happen without a compressor). Thanks!

.

jest take the intake air filter of your compressor and put a barbed adapter in it's place stick on a piece of vacuum hose (stiff wall straw will work with short peace of rubber over end for seal) and leave the output end clear so no pressure can build up. if your going to do a lot of resin like a vac-bag job make a pot out of scd40 pvc and 2 pressure caps then drill and tap over the joint its X2 thick there so the extra resin wont end up killing your air compressor. this method of core repair only works if the core has some de-lamination. mask out the area gob resin on 3 of 4 holes and with compressor running hit the dry hole, you will see the resin get sucked right in if the core is compromised. I recently mounted an expensive set of carbon ski for myself and when i used a wood matchstick to work the resin into the holes you could see that there was a void in the core. push the resin coated matchstick in one hole and the other hole would blow a bubble worked both ways = there connected by a void in the core. put some resin in a syringe squirt it in and filed. use suction for bigger job or where the core is more resistant to flow. fuck glassers lay up high end boats dry = no resin, and then suck the resin in with a vacuum pump its nothing new.

I was talking to my local shop today, and they told me that they have seen someone fill a hole with JB weld and drill right back into the same spot, and it held up. I obviously don't need to drill into the same spot, but has anyone used JB weld to fill up 4 holes in a binding rip out. Is it flexible enough? Does it flow enough? Is it better than a slow-curing Marine Grade epoxy?

Thanks

I have used JB to glue golf tees into some old dynafit holes and personaly I preffer slow set 2 part for that particular app of messing with holes in skis cuz it just flows better

I have used 2 part and chopped up fibreglass strands on a 4 hole tele binding which IMO would have more forces on it than an alpine binding and its still good 5 yrs later

If I wanted to fill a big void I could see using JB

JB Weld is more often used on ski bases for core shots, I would use epoxy in the holes, then mount a binding with a wider base, such as a jester or salmon, at least 1 cm away from the old holes. Also it wouldn't hurt to use epoxy and/or a helicoil in the holes for the next mount.

Originally Posted by samhop

for binder pullout boy here is another option
If you lifted the area around the pulled heal mount, and it sounds like you did. Gizmo has a nice fix -- if your up to it.
1 revers your air compressor = vacum pump
2 mix up a batch of good epoxy
3 cut a hose and with vacum pump running place cut hose end over one pulled screw hole and put resin in other 3 holes. if core is wet run acetone through first to chase out h2o.
4 shut of compressor, don't suck all the resin out. check for resin penetration by clamping in center of area you should see some resin return to holes. jam I MEAN JAM glass roving in screw holes with non grease tool fill with resin corer with wax paper block top and bottom and clamp over night.
5 remount in repaired holes using 4.1 bit and epoxy.

Searching for a solution to a related problem. I've pulled the heel (FKS) out of a pair of skis very dear to me for the SECOND time. Here's a quick rerun: While on a trip to the bird, I hit some rocks pretty hard, hard enough to rip the heel piece out of the ski, although the bases were fine. I have a reasonable amount of trust in the guy who did the original mount here in Whistler. I was in a pinch while on a week trip and needed somewhere to go for a fix and after asking around, chose somewhere and got the repair done. Dude was confident and seemed professional. The repair held for the rest of what was a solid season (IE from early March through April).

After a second day on the skis this year, the heel has pulled out again. It was incredibly lucky that no one was hurt as the ski hurtled through masses of Holiday skiers, very very lucky. When I brought the ski inside and dried it out to have a good look, I realized a few things.

1. I am a dumb ass. One of the screws appears to not have been fully drilled into the repair.
2. Not only has the binding pulled out most of the epoxy repair (except in the one whole obviously...) but the top sheet has lifted a little bit. I need to have a better look in good light in the morning to see what it looks like between the holes, but on the edge of the sidewall, level with the binding mount, there is a separation approx. 1 1/2 to 2 inches long.

WWMD? is a solution like what Samhop brought up applicable? Binning the skis is NOT an option. I'm looking for a solution to get the ski fixed first. Figuring out what to do for a remount can come later.

Thanks for any help guys, I'll be bringing the skis home, so if pics can help, I'll get those later today.

For the fix I would get 2 part slow set under the seperated top sheet and then clamp it, the compresser looks like a good idea but I don't have a compresser so I would try the syringe to get epoxy in and warm the ski with a heat gun so the epoxy flows

I would also use the chopped FG roving to fix spun holes