clipless pedals: why?

[lph]

Jesus, with threads like this and some of the posts within, it is only a matter of time before SR becomes like the main forum.

[monkeywrenchMoose]

pro: locked-in feel on dh; potential for upstroke power; lighter weight; way better ground clearance (esp in horse-ruts); hop the bike without the need to learn bunny-hopping skills.
[/I]
con: sketchy to get out of; can release in sketchy places (ie mid-air); restricts knee rotation; restricts fore-aft positioning of foot; promotes bad riding style; requires expensive shoes; more moving parts to break; better hope those cleats don't come loose; shoes generally suck to walk in; shoes suck to go out in public in.

I am confused. You say one of the cons of clipless pedals is that they "promote bad riding style" but say one of the pros is that you can "hop the bike without the need to learn proper bunny-hopping skills". I would argue that not learning how to bunny hop properly is "bad riding style", no?

Also, how does riding clipless as opposed to flats promote bad riding style? Other than not properly bunnyhoping of course.

[LaBelle23]

I'm a convert to flats, though would not have f'up my ankle this week if I was riding clipless. It won't make me switch back, but after bashing a low rock with one pedal trying to get up to speed on the downhill my other foot got kicked forward and ended up getting pinned under the pedal against the ground and dragged. Not good.

[dumpy]

A lot of the hate sounds like it's coming from people who never bothered to set up their clipless. I have enough float in my pedals that I can rotate my knee a bit if need be (yes I can still get out, many years ago I spent some time learning to forcibly kick out, it's automatic now). I've also spent some time positioning my cleats in the right spot for my body geometry, not super scientific, but I think I found a good spot.

The only part that sucks for me is the shoes. If I see a decent pair on sale, I buy them, no way I'm paying full shot.

1/3 of my bikes has flats sort of. On my SS mtb/run around bike I run a pedal that is flat on one side, clipless on the other. works great.

[Dickeymotto]

Fixes most con's about clipless: easy out, platform, walkable/hikable, looks like normal shoes.

[LittleYellowFriend]

What? Seriously, I'm a predominant flats rider and can't agree with this statement.
Balance is under the ball of the foot(right where the the clip is), not the center.

So when you are standing up you stand constantly on the ball of your foot? I don't think so. Your center of gravity is right over the center of the foot, not the ball. If you are riding flats with the ball of your foot over the pedal instead of the center you are just using them wrong.

In mountain biking, like any other sport you are better off with a neutral athletic stance because it is the most stable. Football players know this. Do you think they teach football players to walk around on their tip toes? No because it would be easier to tackle them. Well biking is no different.


Thats why riding clipless is so fucked up, and when so many people switch to flats they are riding them still like clipless. That why AltaGirl had her problems with them, because she was riding them like clipless pedals. Thats why riding clipless makes you a shitty rider because it ingrains a bad stance.

[kidwoo]

clipless pedals put you in a totally off balance body position by placing the center of the pedal under the front of the foot instead of in the center where it should be, making the rider all hunched over, off center, and making it hard to bend the knees to adjust to terrain and properly shift the body forward or back. Thats why people who use clipless pedals suck at riding generally.

I'll get an email out to these guys right away.

Yes these guys. Consitently in the top 5 at just about every world cup race.

[PowTron]

As someone else had mentioned, a great flat pedal with a pair of FiveTens, and you will feel like you are clipped in.





My FiveTen's and Flat combo has served me extremely well for the last 3 years or so, on my DH and XC bikes.

To each their own, that is why we are able to make choices in life

[philippeR]

So when you are standing up you stand constantly on the ball of your foot? I don't think so. Your center of gravity is right over the center of the foot, not the ball. If you are riding flats with the ball of your foot over the pedal instead of the center you are just using them wrong.

In mountain biking, like any other sport you are better off with a neutral athletic stance because it is the most stable. Football players know this. Do you think they teach football players to walk around on the ball of their foot? No because it would be easier to tackle them. Well biking is no different.


Thats why riding clipless is so fucked up, and when so many people switch to flats they are riding them still like clipless. That why AltaGirl had her problems with them, because she was riding them like clipless pedals. Thats why riding clipless makes you a shitty rider because it ingrains a bad stance.

Wow, you've just found yourself a new coaching career, for bikers, or football players, I don't know, whatever (same shit anyway).

[LittleYellowFriend]

I'll get an email out to these guys right away.

Yes these guys. Consitently in the top 5 at just about every world cup race.

True True, but Downhill racing is becoming just about as irrelevant to the mountain biking world as cross country racing currently is.


[edit] same thing happened to skiing many years ago. i.e. you don't see Bode Miller on fat skiis; you see where I am going.

[kidwoo]

True True, but Downhill racing is becoming just about as irrelevant to mountain biking world as cross country racing currently is.

Please.


You can thank downhilling for every single suspension and brake improvement over the last 8 years. Because nothing pushes equipment harder.

And you can thank sam hill and some fast austrailians, DOWNHILLERS for getting people on a larger scale (IE not racers) to reconsider flats as a viable option for effective descending as well. And you can thank downhillers for 5.10 and sticky soled bike shoes.

Just because paul mitchell doesn't put norba races on the tee vee anymore doesn't mean squat. Downhilling has exploded in this country compared to a few years ago......and worldwide for that matter.

And your 'irrellevance' of downhill argument still doesn't address your horribly misguided theories on pedals. Most of the fastest guys in the world use them. If they saw them as a detriment, they wouldn't, plain and simple. You really aren't privy to any exclusive information, trust me. You just apparently don't know how to ride well in clipless pedals.

[P_McPoser]

LYF??? SRSLY???

Wow.....


The Benefits of clipless pedals include both forcing your foot into the PROPER POSITION, less FU rock moments, and far more efficient pedaling mechanics. (Circles, not chopping wood).

With that said, I prefer flats for downhill. I do ride clipless on the rare occasion I do something stupid like enter a XC race at winterpark and decide that it will be the first time I pedal a bike that summer.

I thinki where they REALLY shine is in BMX. I raced BMX on clipless starting when I was about 12, and that's when I started destroying the competition. BMX is a sprint, if you can make it so your upstrokes aren't just dead weight, as well as pedaling through the air to keep your legs moving, well fuck, it's just smart. You probably wouldn't see any top level BMX pros on flats anymore now.

[bio-smear]

I find clipless very difficult to use when hopping on my steed for a quick drunken ride around the block in flip flops.

Like most riders, I've gone through a multi faceted equipment transition campaign throughout my riding career. I used to love clipless, until I started riding more urban trials and street stuff, where a quick dab without fucking with the pedals is a good thing. Also, I've never learned to ride a bike properly, so I tend to position the arch of my foot over the center of the pedal. I did the same thing in motocross on the foot pegs. My ankles are both messed up so I like to align the soul-crushing force of my trail rage directly with my tib and fib.

The fact that I have to ride with shin guards on every ride is somewhat annoying. Clipless solve that problem well. The one time in the last year when I braved the heat without my combo knee/shin guards I sunk the pedal screws into my shin and saw the white fatty layer. I love that.

I don't think I will ever use clipless again unless I take up road cycling, but by then I'll probably be giving blowjobs in a dark adult theater on the weekends so it'll be the least of my worries.

[LittleYellowFriend]

Please.


You can thank downhilling for every single suspension and brake improvement over the last 8 years. Because nothing pushes equipment harder.

And you can thank sam hill and some fast austrailians, DOWNHILLERS for getting people on a larger scale (IE not racers) to reconsider flats as a viable option for effective descending as well. And you can thank downhillers for 5.10 and sticky soled bike shoes.

Just because paul mitchell doesn't put norba races on the tee vee anymore doesn't mean squat. Downhilling has exploded in this country compared to a few years ago......and worldwide for that matter.

And your 'irrellevance' of downhill argument still doesn't address your horribly misguided theories on pedals. Most of the fastest guys in the world use them. If they saw them as a detriment, they wouldn't, plain and simple. You really aren't privy to any exclusive information, trust me. You just apparently don't know how to ride well in clipless pedals.

I think maybe you are misunderstanding me. Please don't take offence. Of course downhill racing has contributed so much to the technology of the sport, just as ski racing has to skiing over the years. I'm not disagreeing with you. But what I am talking is the future of the sport and it is not in racing.

Do you ski on skinny race skiis? My guess is not, because most people nowadays, whether they are at a resort or in the backcountry are on some iteration of Freeride Fat Skis. It wasn't always like that, but it is now.

Likewise who do most people idolize? Bode Miller or Shane McKonkey? They are(were) both great skiers, but most people would say that McKonkey has had a much greater impact on the way they ski nowadays, in their gear, in their style and what they aspire to. McKonkey started out racing, but he took it much further than that by the end of his career.

So the same is it and will be for mountainbiking. The idea that you go down the hill in as fast and as straight of a line as possible is no longer where the sport is, and that is evidenced by the style of riding and trail building that is taking over all over the world. Of course freeriding incorporates many and most elements of downhill, but it is just more than that just like freeriding is with skiing.

I'm not saying that Freeriding is better than Downhilling or anything like that. Its just that its clearly where the sport and industry is headed. So what I am essentially saying is that you practically don't see ANY freeriders using clipless pedals. And there is a good reason for that.

[altagirl]

So when you are standing up you stand constantly on the ball of your foot? I don't think so. Your center of gravity is right over the center of the foot, not the ball. If you are riding flats with the ball of your foot over the pedal instead of the center you are just using them wrong.

In mountain biking, like any other sport you are better off with a neutral athletic stance because it is the most stable. Football players know this. Do you think they teach football players to walk around on their tip toes? No because it would be easier to tackle them. Well biking is no different.


Thats why riding clipless is so fucked up, and when so many people switch to flats they are riding them still like clipless. That why AltaGirl had her problems with them, because she was riding them like clipless pedals. Thats why riding clipless makes you a shitty rider because it ingrains a bad stance.

It's not a bad stance if you're on clipless pedals. You just have to adjust what you're doing a little more - riding rough terrain on flats means you have to keep your knees/ankles moving more to keep from bouncing off the pedals. That's not as efficient as clipless. But if you get unclipped, your chances of getting clipped back in fast on a DH course aren't necessarily good and then you're worse off. So if you're confident you won't need to dab or can clip back in while getting bounced around - clipless is the better choice.


I guess I'm doing it wrong, but I'm rarely preparing to tackle someone while I'm mountain biking.

OTOH, good motocross riders ride with the ball of their foot on the pegs so they have more range of motion with their body. Granted, they move their feet around as necessary (shifting, braking, etc), but particuarly through whoops and rougher terrain, you want to try and keep your body (torso/head) moving smoothly down the trail while your bike moves under you - which is way easier to do on the balls of your feet.

Of course, maybe riding fluidly at speed is something only irrelevant DH racers are interested in.

[Danno]

So when you are standing up you stand constantly on the ball of your foot? I don't think so. Your center of gravity is right over the center of the foot, not the ball. If you are riding flats with the ball of your foot over the pedal instead of the center you are just using them wrong.

In mountain biking, like any other sport you are better off with a neutral athletic stance because it is the most stable. Football players know this. Do you think they teach football players to walk around on their tip toes? No because it would be easier to tackle them. Well biking is no different.

While a football player may not walk on their toes, what do you think they do when they go from the "neutral athletic stance" to having to move? or perhaps even more to the point (since biking is a straight ahead thing just like sprinting) have you ever watched a sprinter run?

Ponder that one for a while.

[dieselcruiserhead]

I ride a 5" bike XC but pretty AM at times. I was a clipless h8ter back in the day as well, now I couldn't see how I could live without them. Pretty much on everything I own but not a downhiller. For certain terrain they are just way more efficient and the way to go especially for climbs but also for most mild-medium terrain, they're just more solid.

But for some bikes and some terrain they are not the smartest like a big bike where you need to be able to bail easily and where efficiency isn't that important. It'd be a nightmare to me to ride 30 miles on flats. I could do it a couple times a week with clipless. So to each and his own.

The way to get around it for townie is... to have a townie, not ride your off road steed around town Townies work well for flip flops

[LittleYellowFriend]

Off course if the goal is winning the race you dont want your feet to fall off, that why racers use them. But most people don't race.
And you don't ride flats with the exact same foot position as clipless either. Like I said, If you are having problem with flat that might be the reason why.
Look at Bearclaw here-


Look how much more centered his feet are over his pedals. This allows him to be much more stable as he is flying through the air. Even his right foot which is slightly back, pedal center is still within the arch of his foot and not the ball and would be forced about an inch or two further back if he was wearing clipless. So decide for yourself. But if you are having problems with flats try a more centered neutral stance, your riding will thank you.

[kidwoo]

I think maybe you are misunderstanding me. Please don't take offence. Of course downhill racing has contributed so much to the technology of the sport, just as ski racing has to skiing over the years. I'm not disagreeing with you. But what I am talking is the future of the sport and it is not in racing.

I'm not taking offense, I'm just flabbergasted at your one sided thinking. In 2003, yes 'freeriding' was grabbing a bigger and bigger share of the market. But it's definitely equalized and racing is just as popular if not moreso than it was back then. Think about how many races, especially DH there are these days. Practically every mountain running lifts has some sort of series, and there are MULTIPLE regional series going on. Don't let the death of a shitty national series lead you believe the sport went anywhere.

But either way, people will always be interested in pinning it down singletrack as fast as they can. Clipless pedals in no way whatsoever hinder this if you know how to use them, and many (most?) people realize the advantage. The best you can say is that you don't prefer them. Because there are plenty of riders out there on both that could school you and saying either side is 'wrong' just shows a lack of understanding.

Riding flats is not some sort of evolution. The first person to ever ride a bike down a trail was riding 'flats'. Think about it. Even roadies used to race 'flats'. If anything, sneakers and platforms are the beginner's road into the sport. Very skilled riders use both. Trying to make a case that connecting your feet to your bike is some sort of outdated modality just makes you sound like you don't know how to use clipless well. And yes I've ridden a shit ton of goofy ladder bridges and doubles clipped in. And I use flats when I'm going to be walking around a lot. There are pros and cons to each.

Your ski argument is so off base it's not even funny. Wider skis mean better floatation. More people wanted a tool for that and that's why they're around. When it hasn't snowed in a while I aboslutely do grab skinny skis because they're a better tool for the job. Fat skis as a comparison to flat pedals is just silly. If anything, compare skis to tires. Because it's the surface you'll be riding on that dictates the efficacy.

[kidwoo]

Off course if the goal is winning the race you dont want your feet to fall off, that why racers use them. But most people don't race.
And you don't ride flats with the exact same foot position as clipless either. Like I said, If you are having problem with flat that might be the reason why.
Look at Bearclaw here-


Look how much more centered his feet are over his pedals. This allows him to be much more stable as he is flying through the air. Even his right foot which is slightly back, pedal center is still within the arch of his foot and not the ball and would be forced about an inch or two further back if he was wearing clipless. So decide for yourself. But if you are having problems with flats try a more centered neutral stance, your riding will thank you.

Being able to ditch a bike mid air has exactly what to do with riding rough singletrack?

Because that's exactly why most guys riding a slopestyle course (or trail) use flats. That and can cans

[altagirl]

Off course if the goal is winning the race you dont want your feet to fall off, that why racers use them. But most people don't race.
And you don't ride flats with the exact same foot position as clipless either. Like I said, If you are having problem with flat that might be the reason why..

I'm baffled by the idea that only racers care if their feet fall off the pedals...

And if you're having problems with flats, likely the reason is that you have to keep your legs slightly more bent than you do on clipless pedals. If you hit things stiff, you bounce. It's a slight adjustment, but once you get used to it it's not a big deal. To me, the idea is that if you want to be able to ride both (i.e. you sometimes do XC type rides and sometimes ride techy obstacles where you want to be on flats) - you need to practice on both. It's only hard to switch back and forth if you haven't done one or the other in ages.

FWIW, the only person I've run into who also thinks your feet should be centered on the pedals is also a dirt jumper. Maybe it is better that way for dirt jumping - I wouldn't know. But it's definitely not better for trail riding.

[wetcoaster]

For me, the SPD pedals I had used to aggravate the shit out of an old knee ligament injury - the twisting out would eventually have my knee the size of a watermelon.

I have flats now and don't especially love them - but my damaged-goods leg does.

[LittleYellowFriend]

I'm baffled by the idea that only racers care if their feet fall off the pedals...

.....
But it's definitely not better for trail riding.

Well from what I can tell you are from Utah, and people from there don't know how to ride anyway.

[kidwoo]

FWIW, the only person I've run into who also thinks your feet should be centered on the pedals is also a dirt jumper. Maybe it is better that way for dirt jumping - I wouldn't know. But it's definitely not better for trail riding.

I ride like that when I'm dirtjumping because it hurts my ankles less when casing or overshooting something.

Seriously.

I also run my cleats on my dh shoes further back than on my xc shoes for the same reason. My ankles are made of glass these days.

For me, the SPD pedals I had used to aggravate the shit out of an old knee ligament injury - the twisting out would eventually have my knee the size of a watermelon.

I have flats now and don't especially love them - but my damaged-goods leg does.

After a few knee surgeries years and years ago, I switched to time pedals for this same reason. SPDs on long climbs would kill my knees being locked in the same angle. CB pedals are the same design for the most part and allow some float as well. I can move my feet way more in clipless times than I can with 5.10s and flats. If you want to go back to clipless, I'd check those two brands out.

[ColinB]

Correct me if I'm wrong here....but weren't the freeriders the ones pushing these 10-12 inch of travel monsters that really made it hard to do anything other than just go off of gigantic drops, downhillers pushed the industry to make bikes that had a more reasonable amount of big hit trave (with appropriate damping), were lighter weight and could actually be pedaled (which has benefited freeriding greatly). This push for sub-40 lb DH bikes with 8 or 9 inches of travel is the reason why our 6 inch trail bikes now are closer to 25 than 35 pounds. I think DH'ers input on mountain biking is still quite relevant.