Thread: Obama/North Korea Policy

Allerbush... I bet you'd feel differently if you lived in range of that Nork artillery...

Originally Posted by mocwvmit

I'm going to complain about something mildly annoying by being 1000x as annoying because I love to gargle jiz.

Rideit is an idiot. You are a douchenozzle.

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Wallah!

Originally Posted by Summit

Allerbush... I bet you'd feel differently if you lived in range of that Nork artillery...



Rideit is an idiot. You are a douchenozzle.

thing is, I'm agreeing with you. It's scary stuff and I don't think we should invade N. Korea....but N. Korea, unless I misunderstand their military technology, is basically operating with 1950's technology from Russia and China....where is that other thread where people were throwing back and forth the idea that Russia's nuclear arsenal is largely unusable? I'm guessing that 60+ year old artillery shells, guns, bombs, etc and their idiotic brainwashed operators might not be as effective as say the S. Korea Arsenal, S. Korea soldiers , US arsenal and US soldiers? Then again, AK-47s work pretty well...so yeah, I don't know...but who really does?

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

I don't know...but who really does?

People who's job it is to know these things.

Originally Posted by Rubicon

People who's job it is to know these things.

Oreally? The Master of the Obvious strikes again.

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Oreally? The Master of the Obvious strikes again.

I believe he is implying that said people regard North Korea's military as a credible threat.

Originally Posted by Summit

I believe he is implying that said people regard North Korea's military as a credible threat.

Yes, and have I disagreed with that? negative...which begs the question why Rubi wrote that...hence master of the obvious...

Summit,
like I said, that's my knee jerk reaction based on gut.

You made a lot of really good points about why military action against NK would be a bad idea. Isn't it only going to get worse though, if they continue to develop nukes? What do you think we should do about NK if anything?

Well, I may be able to see a bad idea, but that doesn't mean I have any good ideas.

It turns my stomach thinking about the lot of the average North Korean. That county has the worlds largest concentration camp. One of my best friends from high school and middle school is a South Korean national. He's working on a PhD here so he can delay his compulsory military service. His brother (also my friend) is now serving in the ROK Army. I don't want them or their family to die fighting.

Nukes make the game harder. Much like Iran, we are worried about them not being rational actors (required for deterrence theory to work). The difference between North Korea and Iran is that North Korea already has reasonably credible deterrent of sorts, they are just improving it. Iran has no deterrent. We are worried about Iran giving toys to ideologically motivated types for nonrational reasons. We are worried about North Korea selling to the highest bidder if they think it is their interest (that's easier to counter).

It will be a while before they get a reliably working nuke that will fit on a ballistic missile. Meanwhile we are (WERE) working to be able to shoot down that missile. But I think NK thinks of it as a win win. They get paid to not build the nuke, or the build the nukes and gain safety. (Or more accurately, they get paid not to, do it anyway until they get paid again, wash rinse repeat)

My non-expert opinion is that the continued strategy of isolation and containment while maintaining a deterrent force and working towards limited anti-ballistic missile systems is the best choice. We'll have to continue to prop up the regime through aid now and then, but as little as we can get away with. Dear Leader will die soon. We can hope his replacement will be less insane.

Originally Posted by Summit

I believe he is implying that said people regard North Korea's military as a credible threat.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Summit

Well, I may be able to see a bad idea, but that doesn't mean I have any good ideas.

It turns my stomach thinking about the lot of the average North Korean. That county has the worlds largest concentration camp. One of my best friends from high school and middle school is a South Korean national. He's working on a PhD here so he can delay his compulsory military service. His brother (also my friend) is now serving in the ROK Army. I don't want them or their family to die fighting.

Nukes make the game harder. Much like Iran, we are worried about them not being rational actors (required for deterrence theory to work). The difference between North Korea and Iran is that North Korea already has reasonably credible deterrent of sorts, they are just improving it. Iran has no deterrent. We are worried about Iran giving toys to ideologically motivated types for nonrational reasons. We are worried about North Korea selling to the highest bidder if they think it is their interest (that's easier to counter).

It will be a while before they get a reliably working nuke that will fit on a ballistic missile. Meanwhile we are (WERE) working to be able to shoot down that missile. But I think NK thinks of it as a win win. They get paid to not build the nuke, or the build the nukes and gain safety. (Or more accurately, they get paid not to, do it anyway until they get paid again, wash rinse repeat)

My non-expert opinion is that the continued strategy of isolation and containment while maintaining a deterrent force and working towards limited anti-ballistic missile systems is the best choice. We'll have to continue to prop up the regime through aid now and then, but as little as we can get away with. Dear Leader will die soon. We can hope his replacement will be less insane.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think any of the neighbors to N. Korea want them to have nukes (i.e. China, Russia, S. Korea, Japan, etc). So I guess I'm not as convinced that they'll ever develop nuclear armed missiles. Also I think isolating N. Korea has helped to create the "worlds largest concentration camp". Maybe the answer is to stop isolating them in the hopes of a public uprising...although, with their enormous (proportionately) military it would be difficult for the public to have much influence on the government.

Damn you Ridetit and your tapis tempting pic !!

Summit, damn, that's some strong insight into the NK military. I wouldn't want to fight a mountain war like that. Remember the first Korean war ??

I still wonder what Chinas response would be to our foray into their backyard. I wonder if they'd take advantage of the NK distraction and move on Taiwan ??

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think any of the neighbors to N. Korea want them to have nukes (i.e. China, Russia, S. Korea, Japan, etc). So I guess I'm not as convinced that they'll ever develop nuclear armed missiles. Also I think isolating N. Korea has helped to create the "worlds largest concentration camp". Maybe the answer is to stop isolating them in the hopes of a public uprising...although, with their enormous (proportionately) military it would be difficult for the public to have much influence on the government.

Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il's cult of personality combined with a Stalinist state cannot survive without near complete isolation. The cultural isolation and regimented society is self imposed. IIRC the rest of the world has imposed few sanctions that have negative economic impact, but mostly its to limit military trade and luxury items for the communist elite.

North Korean society is so different from it's neighbors, including South Korea, they may as well be aboriginal tribe. ArmadaBC stated it well:

Originally Posted by ArmadaBC

imagine a place where millions of people think Kim Jong went to the moon and invented the car, your essentially talking about showing up and telling millions that the last 60 years of their lives was complete bull shit.

Additionally North Koreans who have made it to the South have a real hard time as they are not able adapt to a society with so much personal freedom and lack of a top down structure.

They are so programmed, so backwards, so regimented, you could never hope for a popular uprising unless things got so bad the Army was starving. China wants to prop them up because it's cheaper to do that than deal with 10 million North Korean refugees. (They also prop them up for the same reason we do... it's safer than a truly desperate North Korea). I think best you can hope for is a new leadership that is more progressive or a military coup. Not much to hope for

Originally Posted by OSECS

I still wonder what Chinas response would be to our foray into their backyard. I wonder if they'd take advantage of the NK distraction and move on Taiwan ??

I think they'd threaten to attack Taiwan, possibly sincerely, and insincerely threaten to come in on NK's side as a way to make us back off. It's the smart play. The Chinese are pretty smart about that stuff. If we were building up forces for an invasion and occupation, they'd have tons of time to posture and get us to back off with diplomacy and saber rattling. I'm just guessing here. The whole scenario is so unthinkable! We just wouldn't go there.

Originally Posted by Summit

Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il's cult of personality combined with a Stalinist state cannot survive without near complete isolation.

Which when you think about it kind of makes our whole Cuba policy even more baffling?

I'm amazed that there haven't been pictures of tanks, jet fighters and big explosions in this thread yet.

... or puppet poop sex.

Summit - work on ABL continues - it's still flying, supposedly there should be some significant occurrences in the program pretty soon here (actual shootdowns!). It's just a technology demonstrator at this point instead of being considered a prototype, but I imagine once there's some significant success coupled with the need to support the very specialized industrial base for the program, that could change right back again.

There will be no taking out North Korea. In the event that they intiate aggression, there will be massive casualties on both sides.

Its the USS MIssourri, Iowa class battleships comparisom. Old technology, but oddly enough it circumvents most modern defenses.

Hardened bunkers, 10,000's of artillery pieces, all within miles of Seoul and a by gone mentality to accepting casualties in the millions if neccesary.

We could never do repel intially, and no amount of stealth technolofy or smart bombs would make a difference.

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

it's supposed to be a hotel. they started working on that thing 25 years ago but it could never be completed. and nobody knows why? which seems to be the key question when it comes to north korea. why?

seriously, what the fuck do they want? normally when you are in a conflict with another party, the first thing you need to find out: what do they want, what is their goal? the problem with north korea is nobody knows what they want. do they want to end the war with south korea and a subsequent withdrawal of american troops? do they want to unify korea? do they just want to randomly throw a bomb on japan and then procede as usual? are they afraid of being attacked? do they want to be taken seriously internationally? get food, help, technology? or is it just expression of a struggle for power within the north korean elite? kim seems to have serious health issues after all. seriously, what is the point of the bomb?

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

I'm amazed that there haven't been pictures of tanks, jet fighters and big explosions in this thread yet.

Jeez... one thread on Venezuela and I'm marked for life. However, I found the right picture for this thread:

Originally Posted by greg

it's supposed to be a hotel. they started working on that thing 25 years ago but it could never be completed. and nobody knows why? which seems to be the key question when it comes to north korea. why?

seriously, what the fuck do they want? normally when you are in a conflict with another party, the first thing you need to find out: what do they want, what is their goal? the problem with north korea is nobody knows what they want. do they want to end the war with south korea and a subsequent withdrawal of american troops? do they want to unify korea? do they just want to randomly throw a bomb on japan and then procede as usual? are they afraid of being attacked? do they want to be taken seriously internationally? get food, help, technology? or is it just expression of a struggle for power within the north korean elite? kim seems to have serious health issues after all. seriously, what is the point of the bomb?

They couldn't finish it because the concrete they were using was bad and the building literally started falling down around them. Apparently they have issues with making prestressed concrete.

The point of the bomb is that its gets them heard. No one is going to take them all that seriously about the things you listed above and 6,000 other things without it.

I'd be happy if there were fewer desperate people with guns in this world, that shit is a bad mix and brings out the worst responses.

Originally Posted by ArmadaBC

They couldn't finish it because the concrete they were using was bad and the building literally started falling down around them. Apparently they have issues with making prestressed concrete.

The point of the bomb is that its gets them heard. No one is going to take them all that seriously about the things you listed above and 6,000 other things without it.

The hotel is a symbol of their inability to see something through to completion. That's why I used that photo. I feel that their nuclear program will progress similarly...or, I guess I hope it does. Still scary shit.

I rarely find myself in total agreement with Summit, but this is one of those times.

I'm not sure why he thinks ABL was "killed" and I think he forgot that we currently have the capability to shoot down ballistic missiles with SM-3's deployed by Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Forces and the US Navy.

Folks, this is one of those situations you can't pin on any one administration alone -- it's been ongoing since the Korean War cease-fire.

This Kim guy is so fucking looney. No way this guy just dies quietly one day.

You expect him to die spectacularly?