A question about policy hypocracy...

**iscariot** · 02-22-2009, 03:15 PM

Why is it that Republicans are for deregulation of everything in business because capitalism and people who run businesses can best decide how to run the market BUT Republicans want to regulate/control every decision that people make for themselves (ie. abortion, gay marriage, drugs, religion, etc, etc, etc,...).

Isn't that kind of two faced?

The same is true of the Dems who want regulation for businesses and freedom of choice for people.

It would seem to me, logically, that a political party that wants to be free of controls on capitalism would want people to make their own decisions on how to live and run their lives. But the opposite is true.

Can anyone explain how the two main U.S. political parties get away with these apparent philosophical hypocrisies without people calling bullshit?

Not a troll, just something I don't really understand.

**OSECS** · 02-22-2009, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by iscariot

Why is it that Republicans are for deregulation of everything in business because capitalism and people who run businesses can best decide how to run the market BUT Republicans want to regulate/control every decision that people make for themselves (ie. abortion, gay marriage, drugs, religion, etc, etc, etc,...).

Isn't that kind of two faced?

The same is true of the Dems who want regulation for businesses and freedom of choice for people.

It would seem to me, logically, that a political party that wants to be free of controls on capitalism would want people to make their own decisions on how to live and run their lives. But the opposite is true.

Can anyone explain how the two main U.S. political parties get away with these apparent philosophical hypocrisies without people calling bullshit?

Not a troll, just something I don't really understand.

Dude,

That is a good question !! I'd love to hear a theory or two on this one.

**Jer** · 02-22-2009, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by iscariot

Isn't that kind of two faced?

Yes it is. But you have to remember that the Ruling Party has to have two faces (Rep and Dem) to keep up the illusion (or delusion) of Democracy. If one face appeares to be for free markets and deregulation but against stuff like gay marriage, pot, abortion then of course the other face has to be the opposite. This way the freedom parts cancell each other out and the tyranny parts can double up. It's a loose/loose. The sheep will continue to vote Dem because they are afraid of abortion being outlawed or they will vote Rep because they are afraid the terrorists will get them when in reality they really should be afraid of the Establishment Ruling Party Fascists gradually taking away every single freedom they have.

**Downbound Train** · 02-22-2009, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by iscariot

Why is it that Republicans are for deregulation of everything in business because capitalism and people who run businesses can best decide how to run the market BUT Republicans want to regulate/control every decision that people make for themselves (ie. abortion, gay marriage, drugs, religion, etc, etc, etc,...).

Isn't that kind of two faced?

The same is true of the Dems who want regulation for businesses and freedom of choice for people.

It would seem to me, logically, that a political party that wants to be free of controls on capitalism would want people to make their own decisions on how to live and run their lives. But the opposite is true.

Can anyone explain how the two main U.S. political parties get away with these apparent philosophical hypocrisies without people calling bullshit?

Not a troll, just something I don't really understand.

A true libertarian would say government should be hands off on both sides. It's amazing that they aren't more popular. I could get behind it vs what we have now.

It's about morality on both sides.

Republicans are into economic freedom first, but within a society that honors their religious beliefs. This outlook is totally consistent with the phylosophy of the founders who believed freedom could not work without the moral underpinnings of Christian religion.

Dems reject religion as the standard of morality. They don't want to be told what to do by someone elses God or don't think it's FAIR to impose their religion on someone else. But their morality dictates that everything has to be economically FAIR. So government has to legislate economic morality.

I think both sides have a blind faith that their source of morality will take care of them and society.

Here's the thing, EITHER WAY, someones morality is being forced upon someone else. The founder knew that government is fundamentally immoral. That's why they set things up the way they did.

Honestly, I'm not that religious but I think a society has to be built on a FOUNDATION. Some basic set of rules that does not shift with the whims of the times and political moods.

That's why the founders Rock. They built a foundation of freedom backed by the wisdom the found in the bible. Either way, someone's not going to be happy but I'll take Jesus and Jefferson over Pelosi and Obama.

It's a take your pick.

Dems = FAIR at the expense of economic freedom.
Reps = Economic Freedom with Moral glue required.

**Spats** · 02-22-2009, 05:02 PM

Jer nailed this one.

The reason neither major party is pro-freedom: they make more money by taking away your freedom than they would by guarding it.

Here's how this happens:
-People learn about candidates from the media.
-The media strongly favors the candidates that spend the most money on media advertisements.
-Furthermore, the more advertisements, the more people see the candidate...but this is secondary to the point above.
-Therefore, the candidate that raises the most money almost always wins.

The problem here is that freedom doesn't directly make anyone any money. The way you make big money is by using government as a club to squash your competition, or by sucking off the government teat.

Therefore, industries such as banking (which produces nothing of value, but has the government-granted right to create money: see "fractional reserve banking") use the money that government policy gets them to buy even more political candidates, which makes them even more money.

On the other hand, pro-freedom candidates don't get big support from any specific industry, because freedom doesn't benefit any specific industry. Therefore, the media doesn't take pro-freedom candidates seriously, because they don't buy lots of advertisements and make money for the media.

**Tuckerman** · 02-22-2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by iscariot

Why is it that Republicans are for deregulation of everything in business because capitalism and people who run businesses can best decide how to run the market BUT Republicans want to regulate/control every decision that people make for themselves (ie. abortion, gay marriage, drugs, religion, etc, etc, etc,...).

Because they are not Libertarians, but I think that some Republicans would rather have the individual states make decisions about morality.

**Downbound Train** · 02-22-2009, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

I'll take Jesus and Jefferson over Pelosi,Obama Bush, FDR, Nixon,JFK, Wilson, Clinton, Hoover........

Fixed it for myself....

LittleYellowFriend · 02-22-2009, 11:15 PM

Only 1/3 of the Republican party is into Religious stuff. The other 2/3rds pretty much put up with it. But that 1/3 is very important for winning elections.

**Tuckerman** · 02-23-2009, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by LittleYellowFriend

Only 1/3 of the Republican party is into Religious stuff. The other 2/3rds pretty much put up with it. But that 1/3 is very important for winning elections.

They should weed that 1/3 out and let those anti science, and pro DARE fucks fend for themselves.

LittleYellowFriend · 02-23-2009, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

They should weed that 1/3 out and let those anti science, and pro DARE fucks fend for themselves.

Hey I agree with that sentiment, but one thing you have to keep in mind is that the left side is full of looney controlling freaks too (that is just as much anti-science) so there has to be some balance.

**Downbound Train** · 02-23-2009, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by LittleYellowFriend

Hey I agree with that sentiment, but one thing you have to keep in mind is that the left side is full of looney controlling freaks too (that is just as much anti-science) so there has to be some balance.

Very true LYF. The left only sees the right as imposing their morality. The left has it's own totaly different morality which they are JUST as intent on imposing on us. That's why I rather trust the Founders and the Bible vs the whims of any current power hungry politician.

**mock vomit** · 02-23-2009, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by iscariot

...Can anyone explain how the two main U.S. political parties get away with these apparent philosophical hypocrisies without people calling bullshit?...

Perhaps this will make it more clear? These two general categories of beliefs can be graphed using a perpendicular axis system as such;

You can view more description on it here; http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2 and see our TGR threads on regards this here; http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=114442 and http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=149682 Then take the test yerself here; http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Man, it's so much easier to just show up in these discussion and drop a graph or sumthing (that can be interpreted however by the viewer) than spending an hour or two to make a cogent well illustrated and eminently defendable point... like that other guy who was lost to the deep of Lake Michigan use to do.

**mock vomit** · 02-23-2009, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

...This outlook is totally consistent with the phylosophy of the founders who believed freedom could not work without the moral underpinnings of Christian religion. ... That's why the founders Rock. They built a foundation of freedom backed by the wisdom the found in the bible...

False belief.

**Spats** · 02-23-2009, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

That's why the founders Rock. They built a foundation of freedom backed by the wisdom the found in the bible.

If the Founders had intended America to be a Christian nation, they would have mentioned God, Jesus, or the Bible somewhere in the Constitution.

Number of times the word "God" appears in the Constitution: ZERO
Number of times the word "Jesus" appears in the Constitution: ZERO
Number of times the word "Bible" appears in the Constitution: ZERO

It's truly astounding how you, and most Republicans, can be so dogmatic and so completely, utterly wrong at the same time. It's like you live in a different reality where facts don't matter, and where you can change reality by repeating a lie often enough.

**ak_powder_monkey** · 02-23-2009, 01:51 PM

what gets me are the pro-war pro-lifers hypocracy at its height

**OSECS** · 02-23-2009, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Spats

If the Founders had intended America to be a Christian nation, they would have mentioned God, Jesus, or the Bible somewhere in the Constitution.

Number of times the word "God" appears in the Constitution: ZERO
Number of times the word "Jesus" appears in the Constitution: ZERO
Number of times the word "Bible" appears in the Constitution: ZERO

It's truly astounding how you, and most Republicans, can be so dogmatic and so completely, utterly wrong at the same time. It's like you live in a different reality where facts don't matter, and where you can change reality by repeating a lie often enough.

I do believe it's a good thing for the separation of church and state. I'd also say I believe that it's been twisted from their original intent and taken to silly extremes. I believe they intended for the nation to be based on Judeo-Christian morals. The commandments (even if you take 1,2 and 3 away) are pretty basic rules we all should live by.

I'd also say it's a given that the vast majority of the signers and framers of the Declaration and constitution were Christian, and would not have felt the need to have to expound on the notion that it would be a nation guided by Judeo-Christian morals (which doesn't mean you have to be christian nor does that establish a state religion).

Why do we invoke Gods' name in opening congressional ceremonies ? have it on our currency ? The founders asked Gods assistance, and wisdom to guide their progress. I'm sure I've read this in histories and biographies (not written by the vast right wing conspiracy theorists).

The nation was founded by Christian devotees, who recognized that you can't have an established national religion, but that you can be guided by its principles and moral guidelines.

That's one of the things liberals seem to forget about when they get so over wrought about separation of church and state. It's not an either or thing.

In my opinion, they were very conscious not to expressly invoke God, Jesus or the Bible for the very reasons of not attempting to establish a national religion.

**BurnHard** · 02-23-2009, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

This outlook is totally consistent with the phylosophy of the founders who believed freedom could not work without the moral underpinnings of Christian religion.

This is the biggest load of bullshit I've heard in a while...
None (I repeat NONE) of the founding fathers were (strongly) religious or condoned a christian bible backed moral / judicial system.

Quite to the contrary, many of the founding fathers were outspoken atheists.

Like it's been said before - the hypocrisy that OP mention is indeed based on religion, IMO, at least when it comes to Republicans. They are fundamentalist christians and want to impose the bible's ramblings onto everybody.

As for why the Democrats are hypocrites about personal freedom vs. economic control, I don't know.

**mock vomit** · 02-23-2009, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by OSECS

I do believe it's a good thing for the separation of church and state. I'd also say I believe that it's been twisted from their original intent and taken to silly extremes. I believe they intended for the nation to be based on Judeo-Christian morals. The commandments (even if you take 1,2 and 3 away) are pretty basic rules we all should live by.

I'd also say it's a given that the vast majority of the signers and framers of the Declaration and constitution were Christian, and would not have felt the need to have to expound on the notion that it would be a nation guided by Judeo-Christian morals (which doesn't mean you have to be christian nor does that establish a state religion).

Why do we invoke Gods' name in opening congressional ceremonies ? have it on our currency ? The founders asked Gods assistance, and wisdom to guide their progress. I'm sure I've read this in histories and biographies (not written by the vast right wing conspiracy theorists).

The nation was founded by Christian devotees, who recognized that you can't have an established national religion, but that you can be guided by its principles and moral guidelines.

That's one of the things liberals seem to forget about when they get so over wrought about separation of church and state. It's not an either or thing.

In my opinion, they were very conscious not to expressly invoke God, Jesus or the Bible for the very reasons of not attempting to establish a national religion.

Hmmm.... really?

Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."

John Adams

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, Famous Atheist & Quotessuperstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Thomas Jefferson

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " – Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

While we are on this subject...

Charles Darwin

From the age of forty he was, to use his own words, a complete dis-believer in Christianity. He professed himself an Agnostic, regarding the problem of the universe as beyond our solution, "For myself," he wrote, "I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities."

"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic."

"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science." [Quoted in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science by Michael Shermer.

Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

Galileo Galilei

"They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit."

Kurt Vonnegut

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile."

Dr. James Watson (Discovered DNA)

"I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch."

Frank Lloyd Wright

"I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."

Thomas Edison

"Religion is all bunk."

"I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life – our desire to go on living … our dread of coming to an end."

Sigmund Freud

"Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever. "

"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

"The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life."

Freud certainly regarded belief in God as an illusion that mature men and women should lay aside. The idea of God was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind. [A History of God]

I could go on and on and on... but for the finale;

George Carlin

"Religion is just mind control."

**BurnHard** · 02-23-2009, 04:19 PM

^^^ DING DING DING

**Downbound Train** · 02-23-2009, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Spats

If the Founders had intended America to be a Christian nation, they would have mentioned God, Jesus, or the Bible somewhere in the Constitution.

Number of times the word "God" appears in the Constitution: ZERO
Number of times the word "Jesus" appears in the Constitution: ZERO
Number of times the word "Bible" appears in the Constitution: ZERO

It's truly astounding how you, and most Republicans, can be so dogmatic and so completely, utterly wrong at the same time. It's like you live in a different reality where facts don't matter, and where you can change reality by repeating a lie often enough.

Goes to state of mind your honor....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

**iscariot** · 02-23-2009, 04:26 PM

Several of the questions are invalid on their face, I also think that there are more dimensions to the political spectrum of beliefs than can be depicted on an x,y axis...more like a 3 dimensional sphere of beliefs with different phases and nuances. That being said and given the limited nature of the questionnaire I ended up pretty much exactly where I figured for this exercise. Interesting if only for discussion of the process.

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

I basically line up with the Dalai Lama.

**Jer** · 02-23-2009, 04:32 PM

There's plenty of religious hypocracy on the Left as well. Did everybody miss Nacy Pelosi flying her private jet to Italy (on the taxpayer's dime) to talk with the Pope? And Obama (like most other Presidents) is a church-going prayer believer. Bill Maher comes out with a documentary that portrays religious people as morons, yet he can't say enough about how wise Obama is? Bill - Obama believes in the Man In The Sky too!

Hey - I'm with you Libdouches - religion is just a tool of oppression, but please - drop the hypocracy.

Man - I almost forgot the GLOBAL WARMINGS!!! cult.

**OSECS** · 02-23-2009, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by mocwvmit

Hmmm.... really?

Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."

John Adams

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, Famous Atheist & Quotessuperstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Thomas Jefferson

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " – Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

While we are on this subject...

Charles Darwin

From the age of forty he was, to use his own words, a complete dis-believer in Christianity. He professed himself an Agnostic, regarding the problem of the universe as beyond our solution, "For myself," he wrote, "I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities."

"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic."

"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science." [Quoted in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science by Michael Shermer.

Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

Galileo Galilei

"They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit."

Kurt Vonnegut

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile."

Dr. James Watson (Discovered DNA)

"I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch."

Frank Lloyd Wright

"I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."

Thomas Edison

"Religion is all bunk."

"I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life – our desire to go on living … our dread of coming to an end."

Sigmund Freud

"Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever. "

"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

"The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life."

Freud certainly regarded belief in God as an illusion that mature men and women should lay aside. The idea of God was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind. [A History of God]

I could go on and on and on... but for the finale;

George Carlin

"Religion is just mind control."

Gosh I didn't know all those folks signed the declaration and wrote the constitution ??

Did you read what I posted or just skip ahead and jump to some illogical conclusion about what you think I posted ?? I see people doing that a lot on site.

First of all you've got 4 quotes from people who were actually associated with the events in the 18th c. While I respect the opinions of the other folks , they have nothing what so ever to do with the comments I made in my post. So they're really a waste of time in this discussion.

Second, my comments were directly aimed at the morals of Christianity and the background of most of the men in question. If you could actually address the actual comments I made, I'd be much obliged.

Third, I didn't post anything that made a case for religion/belief in God. I said the morals of Judeo-Christianity were certainly on the minds of the men who crafted the afore mentioned documents. Try to focus and have some reading comprehension on this if you would. It makes for a much more enjoyable and intelligent debate.

Just curious, do you see no redeemable characteristics, thoughts, lessons to be learned from religion ?? You have any thoughts of your own on the subject or do you just rely on others peoples opinions on the topic of faith, religion, morals ??

**OSECS** · 02-23-2009, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by BurnHard

^^^ DING DING DING

What the hell does that mean ?? Do you suffer from the same affliction as mocwvmit, a lack of reading comprehension ??

**OSECS** · 02-23-2009, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

Goes to state of mind your honor....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

See Burnhard, this a where you use "DING, DING, DING.

That creator phrase can trip up some people depending on their ability to read something and comprehend it's meaning.

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