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02-23-2009, 04:44 PM #26
Obama's Robot Lies Too
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TAKE THAT !!!
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
Samuel Adams:
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.”
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the …
Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”
• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation]
At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.
Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.”
Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States
“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.”
“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]
George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."
“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.Last edited by Downbound Train; 02-23-2009 at 04:49 PM.
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02-23-2009, 04:45 PM #27
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In Rainbow Brite's defense:
1) He's widly known as the TGR wizzard of cut & paste.
2) He did write "While we are on this subject" after Lincoln ( I know, Lincoln was way after the decralation and the constitution), which I take to mean "This may be a bit OT, but these douches hated religion as well".
The whole "^^^ding!ding!ding!" thing is about the gayest thing somebody can do on a computer. And that's saying a lot.
edit: I think only a self-deluded moron could possibly surmise that the founders of the US weren't influenced by any kind of religious belief at all. If that were the case, they would have said something about freedom from religion instead of freedom of religion. Lots of dopey libs get from and of mixed up.Last edited by Jer; 02-23-2009 at 04:51 PM.
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02-23-2009, 04:47 PM #28
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Originally Posted by Jer
Bit of a conundrum for some folks I'll bet. Bill Mahr is a really funny, smart guy who thinks he's really a lot smarter than he really is. He likes to make his points by using those factoids that help him while ignoring the other pertinent factoids that would hurt his argument.
Religion can be used as a tool of oppression, just as government can. For the record, most people who have faith in a creator pretty middle of the road, level headed folks. It's the fringes where the oppression occurs. Originally Posted by Jer
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02-23-2009, 04:47 PM #29
Gapper Jong, M.D.
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Originally Posted by OSECS
See Burnhard, this a where you use "DING, DING, DING.
That creator phrase can trip up some people depending on their ability to read something and comprehend it's meaning.
Yes but it only mentions that men are created equal (what about women) and the way I see it my Creator is my mother and father (not an invisible delusion). Originally Posted by Socialist
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02-23-2009, 04:47 PM #30
It's one louder, isn't it
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Just saying there are truths and that men are created doesn't really say much of anything about Jesus.
-That there is truth is something that plenty of scientists are very interested in. Many scientists believe that man has not and possibly may not ever fully describe the world and workings therein but plenty still believe in facts.
-You're right that the idea that men are created and endowed by a Creator implies a belief in some sort of God. It doesn't imply that that God has any relation to the bible and it doesn't imply an endorsement of Christianity. Organized religion is one way to believe in God, but there are plenty of people--including, based on mocwvmit's quotes, many of the founders--who aren't interested in believing in God the way that the bible tells them to.
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02-23-2009, 04:58 PM #31
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Yep very true. No religious statement being made here. Originally Posted by Skis
Based on 18th c. religious beliefs, more than likely he was referring to God. Just a guess on my part, but I'll bet there's something to back that up. I just don't have it at my fingertips (so to speak). Still a better use of the DING DING DING line. Originally Posted by Skis
He used 4 people associated with the founding of the country and never even addressed my post . He just took phrases, out of context and threw them together to try and make a point, which he didn't.
I think you'll get a much more accurate and period feeling for how religion was viewed in our founding and in peoples lives from Downbounds quotes. He at least used contemporary historical examples. Much more relevant than Siggy Freud or my other hero FL. Wright
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02-23-2009, 05:13 PM #32
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Well...c'mon man we all know they're not created equal, they're much more beautiful and fun to play with Originally Posted by iscariot
I think he meant "mankind", and that is a very interesting way to look at his phrase, but he didn't say creator(s), he said creator. An implication and admission of a higher being.
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02-23-2009, 05:46 PM #33
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Hmmm... really. Originally Posted by OSECS
Perhaps you would wish to explain Deism to us? Pray tell, in what period of history did it become prominent???
"God" =/= "Christianity"
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02-23-2009, 06:05 PM #34
Gapper Jong, M.D.
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So you're going to take the liberty to interpret that "man" meant "man(kind)" but you won't allow me the liberty of taking "creator" to mean "creator(s)", ie. parents who created me? Originally Posted by OSECS
Well...c'mon man we all know they're not created equal, they're much more beautiful and fun to play with
I think he meant "mankind", and that is a very interesting way to look at his phrase, but he didn't say creator(s), he said creator. An implication and admission of a higher being.
I think that your notion of who is or isn't allowed to interpret what was written or meant by the writing is suspect.
Good troll though.
Originally Posted by Socialist
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02-23-2009, 06:07 PM #35
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As I said, It was my opinion about his use of the phrase, I never claimed it was the answer. Dude, you've yet to address my original post. Originally Posted by mocwvmit
So do you have lots of knowledge on this topic or did you just google it and paste a few choice words. Interesting that there would be a confluence of these practitioners of Deism at this one particular point in history. Some of the stuff I've seen tries to make the case that the founders were all a bunch of Deists. I'm skeptical, because of all the other quotes, books, history I've come across over the years, that's not the way I've understood it to be, and neither have a hell of a lot of other people who are/were a hell of a lot smarter than me, and you probably.
Because they saw how religion had invaded their former gov't, and persecuted people who wanted to practice their own particular brand of religion. The founders were keenly aware of how they were crafting the constitution to allow for the free religious expression of it's citizens.
It by no means supports the case that they were not religious men who believed in moral thought (being learned and taken from basic Judeo-Christian canons). The Bible aside from being the word of God too some is also a book of morals and lessons for how people should treat each other (SEE: The New Testament and the teachings of Jesus) Whether you believe he was the son of God isn't as important as he taught how people should treat one another. Not a bad role model religous or otherwise.
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02-23-2009, 06:09 PM #36
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I heard the founders actually wanted to arm bears as well...
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02-23-2009, 06:14 PM #37
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I never said anything of the kind. Don't even try that sophmoric bit of gotcha shit. I simply stated I thought he meant it that way. I've never said this is the way it is. My posts here on a subject like this are my comments and personal thoughts. You're free to think whatever you want. I based my opinion on my exposure to history over many years and many classes in college, and many books and many articles. Doesn't mean I'm correct. Just that it's my opinion. Originally Posted by iscariot
So you're going to take the liberty to interpret that "man" meant "man(kind)" but you won't allow me the liberty of taking "creator" to mean "creator(s)", ie. parents who created me?
I think that your notion of who is or isn't allowed to interpret what was written or meant by the writing is suspect. Good troll though.
Nothing you said is wrong, as your creator is who ever you think it should be (SEE: freedom of expression clause, freedom of speech clause, and freedom of religion clause).
Thanks for playing come again realllll soon.
PS. I even stated that I thought your response was a very interesting way of thinking about "creator". I just never looked at it from that angle. So why were you calling me a troll again ???Last edited by OSECS; 02-23-2009 at 06:17 PM.
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02-23-2009, 07:18 PM #38
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“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” -John Adams Originally Posted by mocwvmit
"John Adams (October 30, 1735 – July 4, 1826) was an American politician and the second President of the United States (1797–1801), after being the first Vice President (1789–1797) for two terms. He is regarded as one of the most influential Founding Fathers of the United States."it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
-Hugh Conway
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02-23-2009, 07:33 PM #39
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Forget it. Historical revisionism is a live and well on TGR. Originally Posted by Rubicon
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02-23-2009, 07:39 PM #40
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Originally Posted by iscariot
You are treating the Republican party as though it were one single entity. It is not. Just like the Democratic party, the Republican party is a collection of various groups who have decided to work together under the same umbrella in a marriage of convenience. Each group is consistent within it's own belief system. But there are several very different belief systems at work within the republican party, each one able to exert differing amounts of influence at different times and on different subjects.
Expecting consistency from the party(either party, dem or repub) as a whole is like expecting a bunch of ducks stuffed into a room to quack in unison: it simply isn't going to happen.it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
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02-23-2009, 07:54 PM #41
Gapper Jong, M.D.
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Reread the post we were referring to. Fair enough. Originally Posted by OSECS
I never said anything of the kind. Don't even try that sophmoric bit of gotcha shit. I simply stated I thought he meant it that way. I've never said this is the way it is. My posts here on a subject like this are my comments and personal thoughts. You're free to think whatever you want. I based my opinion on my exposure to history over many years and many classes in college, and many books and many articles. Doesn't mean I'm correct. Just that it's my opinion.
Nothing you said is wrong, as your creator is who ever you think it should be (SEE: freedom of expression clause, freedom of speech clause, and freedom of religion clause).
Thanks for playing come again realllll soon.
PS. I even stated that I thought your response was a very interesting way of thinking about "creator". I just never looked at it from that angle. So why were you calling me a troll again ??? Originally Posted by Socialist
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02-23-2009, 07:57 PM #42
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Your American government teacher in high school should be fired for being incompetent. Originally Posted by BurnHard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington[10], Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible")[11], and Benjamin Franklin[12]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists.[13]
You don't know because you have never attempted to educate yourself. The answers are out there and are not hard to find. Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell is a good place to start to understand economics from a conservative POV, and the biography of Benjamin Franklin called Benjamin Franklin: an American Life by Walter Isaacson is a good resource to understand the mindset of the framers of the constitution concerning religion and personal freedom.As for why the Democrats are hypocrites about personal freedom vs. economic control, I don't know.it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
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02-23-2009, 08:01 PM #43
Gapper Jong, M.D.
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I heard it was bare arms...no gloves mitts, sleeves of any kind.... very cold in the harsh winters. Originally Posted by Jer
Trying to make the Americans a sturdy bunch. Originally Posted by Socialist
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02-23-2009, 08:16 PM #44
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Thanks man, Like I said in my response to your first post. "Very good question". I was hoping for more unbiased responses, but politics and religion can be volatile issues. Some people have opinions and thoughts that can't be changed no matter what you say or offer as evidence. Some people pick and choose their references to fit their own train of thought. Some people just don't want to even listen to a different point of view. Originally Posted by iscariot
I do know it's damn hard to try and put thoughts and motivations into the heads of 18th c. men and women. Their points of reference for how and what they thought is really kind of foreign to our way of thinking today. They were gifted people who had so much less information to draw from than we do today.
The fact that these men created a form of government like no other before or since is amazing in it's own right, and makes me more in awe of them the older I get and the more I see.
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02-23-2009, 10:14 PM #45
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To review exactly what was said that started this part of the discussion...
Among the various disparate stories and fables... I know there are parts of the Bible condoning war, slavery, human sacrifice, multiple wives and rape... but funny, I've never read the part that talks about allowing a free (sorry, a male anglo property owning) populace to vote for representatives??? Originally Posted by Downbound Train
Then the discussion moved to...
Is it even possible that you guys (and your so called Christian Brethren) ever took an entry level sociology or anthropology course? Originally Posted by OSECS
I mean, the framework of the "do nots" like; steal yer neighbor's shit, fuck his women, kill any of them... is basic human civilization stuff that pre-dates ANY part of the recorded parts of history. Our cave man ancestors are more to credit for these basic respect/moral norms and mores than the Jewish, Christian, Hindu or Muslim religions.
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02-23-2009, 10:18 PM #46LittleYellowFriend Guest
AAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHGGGAGHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! !!!!
STOP YELLLLLLLING!!!!!
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02-23-2009, 10:19 PM #47LittleYellowFriend Guest
You know what other religion is really lame???
GLOBAL WARMING!!!!
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02-23-2009, 11:10 PM #48
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Originally Posted by Jer
Originally Posted by iscariot
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02-23-2009, 11:26 PM #49
Don't call it a comeback
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If the founders meant America to be an explicitly Christian nation, they would have used the words "God" and "Jesus", which refer to the Christian God, rather than "their Creator," which can refer to any number of religions. Originally Posted by Downbound Train
Then there's that pesky Bill of Rights:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..."
Yeah, that really looks like something that a bunch of intolerant religious wackjobs would have written into the founding document of a country.
Unlike you, the Founders knew the difference between the necessity for individuals to have a moral compass, and the idea that the State should provide and enforce it. That is why they founded a country which has lasted over 200 years, despite the best efforts of people like you to betray the principles on which it was founded.Last edited by Spats; 02-23-2009 at 11:30 PM.
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02-24-2009, 04:39 AM #50
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So putting your text in gargantuan type face is supposed to make it correct ?? Oh and thank you Captain Obvious for your socio/anthro 101 infomercial. Originally Posted by mocwvmit
Yeah, I pretty much figured Judeo-Christian morals, and laws sprung up magically from the dust. Please give me a break. Everything man has achieved has been on the shoulders of those before him to a greater respect. So just for a second try to suspend your strange rhetorical thought process. The 10 commandments are a set of rules handed down over 3 thousand years ago (+ or -). If these were such obvious moral guidelines that everyone just knew, and lived by, why would there be a need to codify them ?? I'm pretty sure man has been breaking these basic rules since the dawn of time. I'm sure much of Hamurabis' (sp. ?) code was basic human nature, but it still needed to be codified. Man by his nature abuses that which he can. Rule of law makes us unique.
The formation of the American form of government was a fully conscious act that didn't spring from the sub conscious of these men, but was a deliberate act. They based their actions on what they perceived through their experiences. My saying they based much of their beliefs on Judeo-Christian law and tradition, by no means meant that those traditions suddenly sprung into existence because of Judaism or Christianity. Try to remove the vitriol against religion or people of faith and have a civil debate.
Why would you have some hyper bias to attempt to prove that 18th c. men of education and tradition wouldn't use Judeo-Christian tradition and morals as a basis for a western hemisphere form of government ?? Does that destroy your basis of reason in some way ?? They weren't Muslim, or Hindu or Druids, so their tradition would have been one of western judeo-christian beliefs and up bringing. Fact
The liberal attempt to try and remove any bit of religious influence from the founding fathers and their formation of America is flat out incorrect and revisionist. End of story, fact, I'm right (meaning that every learned scholar of any merit has expressed this notion for over 200 years) Just because they were informed by the concepts of christianity doesn't mean they were saying that christianity was the religion to be recognized by the gov't.
The majority of signers and framers were religious men. Some of these men may have been deists and some probably had no religious convictions, but the majority did and it informed their decision making process, but doesn't establish a national religion for some of the very reasons many people came to America in the first place (freedom of religion not from it).
You still haven't addressed anything of the real meat of my original post. You've attempted to go around it with un related issues and topics.
Later
Oh yeah, what does "so called christian brethren" mean ??Last edited by OSECS; 02-24-2009 at 05:03 AM.
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