Boxes and Rails forbidden?

[SupreChicken]

The problem: The edges of my 17/18 Billy Goats were seriously damaged after 4 days of use. Hookiness abound, they become almost unusable on anything firm. I had a sketchy entrance and hit a stump at low speed. Most of the sidecountry laps I do at Stevens end at the bottom of the park, so it's normal for me to hit a couple of rails on the way back to the lift. I'm not good at them, but they're there and it's a fun challenge to get better at them. I wasn't aware that this should seriously damage the edges. I have not had this problem with my 13/14 191s.

However, the lead ski tech at Evo informs me that I'm lucky the edges didn't crack and that I should not use a ski that I like or that I paid a lot for in the park.

So, a poll:

What do the rest of you do with your nice fat skis?
Am I the only one hitting rails on Billy Goats (or something similar) occasionally?
For those that do ride the park, how do you tune and how often?
Is this the argument to become cheaper and never buy anything new?

What does the "tools not jewels" TGR team say to this? I don't think this qualifies as reckless use, but I don't really want to severely damage the edges of a custom ski.

[TAFKALVS]

I stay out of the park and run over rocks and stumps instead.

[Timberridge]

What sort of sicko are you? The Billy Goat is worshiped on TGR and yet you use them in this way?

I've seen BG's, with 6 mounts and the correct graphic, sell at any price, and almost immediately in GS w/ a multitude of comments such as, "Someone please buy these before I do", "If I just didn't buy _____ I'd be all over these" culminating with multiple "Pm incoming, check your inbox" messages.

[mr_pretzel]

As someone who has ridden a lot of park in my time that seems pretty normal.
If you hit rails with sharp edges they will «hook» and recieve more damage. I have gotten edgecracks on non-on3p branded skis within just a few days of riding. Slamming metal into metal will do that.

To have a ski that will last a while on rails they need to be really detuned underfoot, like I am talking completely round and even then that is no guarantee. On3p delivers a «park tune» on some of their skis now and the edge underfoot is completely round. Horrible for any hard snow, great for rails.

The fact that you hit rails on your billy goats is kind of mind blowing, if you want a ski that will be able to edge well on hard snow you can not hit rails on it, unless you want to sharpen the edges of your skis everyday and shorten the skis life.

[TahoeJ]

I'm a tools not jewels fan / idiot as much as anyone (the drought in Tahoe a few years back permanently instilled this attitude in me) but for christ sakes's I'm not gonna take them on rails...

[Toddball]

Have never had a problem hitting boxes (gently) on nice skis, but my Hojis have several significant edge dings from when I thought a rail tap was going to be sweet and/or I got a snowboarder friend to lie down and tried to railslide his edge. Fortunately no cracks yet.

I utilize an organic all-natural detuning strategem I execute in the early season that involves vigorous application of alder, plutonic rocks, and premium soils to my bases and edges. Works okay.

[SupreChicken]

2K posts in and I never knew this shit. I also didn't know that there were two DIN adjustments on the beast 16 heel and I couldn't figure out why I kept pre-releasing.

Anyone out there that loves rails? Just get a beater quiver of one type ski and use that in firm or variable conditions?

I guess I need to stop buying nice or new skis. Or find more amusement in skiing outside of the park when there isn't pow.

[anotherVTskibum]

I'm pretty sure that the serious freeride competitors maintain different skis for park and pipe for just that reason—rails are f'ing harsh on ski edges, the more so if the ski edge was sharp before contact. Pipe skis need to be sharp.

So yes, the answer, as it often is, comes down to more skis in the quiver.

[John_B]

2K posts in and I never knew this shit. I also didn't know that there were two DIN adjustments on the beast 16 heel and I couldn't figure out why I kept pre-releasing.

I was trying to remember who that was the other week.

[iggyskier]

Just tried to give you a call. Give me a call back if you want more help or email me some photos.

What do the rest of you do with your nice fat skis?

In my experience, most people aren't hitting rails on their powder skis. Some are on their all mountain skis. If you are hitting rails on skis, we recommend you detune them, regardless of which ski they are, as sharp edges vs. rails is a bad combo.

Am I the only one hitting rails on Billy Goats (or something similar) occasionally?

I honestly don't know if I've ever been asked about it, so it is pretty rare.

For those that do ride the park, how do you tune and how often?

Maintaining park skis requires a lot more maintenance then maintaining normal skis. Both in prep for detune and in maintenance and repair as damage happens. Park skis can last a long time if damage it managed and cracks are sealed as they occur. If you plan on hitting rails with those skis, I would detune them, even to the detriment of hardpack performance, as the slight loss of edge hold won't outweigh the quick damage rails will do to the edges will sharp.

Is this the argument to become cheaper and never buy anything new?

Some of it is education. ON3P is literally working on some educational stuff this week because even park skiers don't know how to properly detune an edge - so if you aren't skiing a ton of park, it's not surprising that you aren't fully aware rails + sharp edges are a bad combo - many park skiers aren't either.

Rails are the big elephant in the room that, at least from a material standpoint, there are limits on what is currently possible as far as impacts go.

What does the "tools not jewels" TGR team say to this? I don't think this qualifies as reckless use, but I don't really want to severely damage the edges of a custom ski.

It's a tool that has to be prepped for the job.

Prep them for rails and damage will be mitigated. To do so, you'll lose some hardpack grip, those I think almost every employee at ON3P is skiing park detuned Kartel 108 everyday and does fine, so I think we have a higher comfort level with it that most.

As I said - give me a call or shoot me an email. Happy to take a look at the skis and offer help where I can.

[XavierD]

Back when I pretended to be good at park skiing we maintained two sets of the same ski. One for pipe which was kept pristine and we tuned and waxed like racers these skis never touched rails or boxes and we didn’t take them out unless we were skiing pipe. The second pair was for rails and everything else Park; we took files to these at 45d until they were round for a 3’ section underfoot. Generally the pipe skis became park skis when we couldn’t keep them fast and the park skis became rail/urban skis when the edges started coming out.

[Supermoon]

Has anyone made a park ski with no edges underfoot? Would you just blow out the sidewall immediately?

Metal on metal heats up the edge and work hardens it right? That’s why they crack? Maybe an edge material made out of brass or something super soft underfoot would work? I’m not a materials engineer so just spitballing.

[PlayItLeo]

Has anyone made a park ski with no edges underfoot? Would you just blow out the sidewall immediately?

Metal on metal heats up the edge and work hardens it right? That’s why they crack? Maybe an edge material made out of brass or something super soft underfoot would work? I’m not a materials engineer so just spitballing.

Moment Frankenski played with this idea a bit - basically filled the underfoot edge area with base material.

On the flip side, Elan and I think some other company tried adding a second “edge” in the base parallel to the actual edge, so basically the opposite of no edges.




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[CaliBrit]

Literally never put a ski I care about anywhere near a rail.

[ZomblibulaX]

Literally never put a ski I care about anywhere near a rail.

QFT.

Atomic and Dynastar have both fiddled around with adding additional edges ~1cm inside of the actual edge in the contact area. Fact of the matter is though, edges often hit rails at an angle so the benefit seemed negligible.

Rossi made the powair grind 15+ yrs ago, with a wall to wall aluminum insert in the center of the ski. I gotta find a pic, they were interesting.

I tell kids if they want to slide rails, buy a true twin and center mount it. Your trailing edges always get hit hardest, so you can flip the mount and drag it out a while after you start blowing edges.

And yes, skis are a tool, but they’re not a fucking hammer.

[Vitamin I]

I don't ski rails anymore...but only because I don't get much fulfillment anymore from rails. And if I'm probably gonna get injured, then I want it to be while skiing my favorite types of terrain.

If I liked rails more, I would keep making it happen, for sure. I wouldn't trash a nice pair of BillyGoats on the rails. I would actually do the extra work to carry 2 pairs of skis to the base in the morning, then swap skis when I want to hit the rails. Just do it, and have fun doing both.

Also, when I sell used skis, I definitely tell the buyer beforehand if the ski has ever touched a rail. ...But as a buyer myself, I often forget to ask the seller if the ski has touched a rail. I need better habits.

.

[skifishbum]

as a ski tech
im going with using your skis
for sliding on things other than snow =
silly wabbit shit

[zartagen]

Has anyone made a park ski with no edges underfoot? Would you just blow out the sidewall immediately?

Metal on metal heats up the edge and work hardens it right? That’s why they crack? Maybe an edge material made out of brass or something super soft underfoot would work? I’m not a materials engineer so just spitballing.

A friend of mine has/had a snowboard with brass edges. I forget the brand, but it was pretty much for park only.

[Sashko]

ON3P is literally working on some educational stuff this week because even park skiers don't know how to properly detune an edge - so if you aren't skiing a ton of park, it's not surprising that you aren't fully aware rails + sharp edges are a bad combo - many park skiers aren't either.

will it be available online? how it will be delivered - video/text + images?

[Timberridge]

will it be available online? how it will be delivered - video/text + images?

Should be a 10 sec video at most. Take some really hard shit and rub it along your edges at 45 degree angle. Buy a XXXL sweatshirt, slash up the bottoms of your one size too big Saga ski pants and go hit some rails...yo.

[Self Jupiter]

To your defense- you’re not alone. I blew the sidewalls out on some $1400 Stocklis I had proformed in a bunch of spots, and while I can’t be sure, I’m pretty sure hitting rails with no tuning prep work had a hand in that. I realized how stupid I was being only when one of my shop buddies told me ‘don’t ever tell the owner you hit rails with these.’

[SupreChicken]

Just completed a call with Scott. Helpful as always.

And yeah. I'm definitely not alone here.

Plan is to have him review photos of the work that evo did and suggest some detuning instructions based on how the photos look that will protect the edges from my skiing habits. Willing to sacrifice hard snow performance for a longer lasting ski without me having to ski every sidecountry lap pretending like I don't see the park features on my way back to the lift. Part of the reason I have a pass at Stevens is because it allows for both types of skiing in one lap. Crystal doesn't - their park is a joke.

Vitamin I - I think a 2 pair day is good advice, and I used to do that more, but my quiver and gear is much more consolidated now than it used to be. Also my main riding partner is my wife, and I'm usually on the mountain longer than her anyway. I don't want to be losing time on a ski swap.

[Timberridge]

Here on the EC I can't imagine venturing into the railjam portion of the TP without AR7's, FT's and 80cm poles. You'll get funny "who's dad is that?" looks.

Perhaps there's an opportunity to make something like these?

[grinch]

^^i like it. Something like that could work. The “rail sock”

[theetruscan]

rail rubber