Thread: POV mtb quality woes...

POV - Why does my footage look like crap?

You can save the "because it's a POV" comments for those of you using sweet cameras. I like this small, convenient, easy to use package even if it has drawbacks such as the codec used to compress the video as it comes out etc... and save your "tech talk/video/photo" comments as well. I'd like to hear the SR perspective.

And since the file(s) come out of the camera looking decent to begin with and only get worse as I edit/compress and then upload to whatever video service (youtube/vimeo) that butchers it further, I can tell that the camera and initial compression isn't the issue.

Why do pow-day POV videos look crisper? Is it just that they are in the snow and things need less detail/contrast and appear better than they really are?

Here's a short video I threw together from mid-September that has some basic compression that I applied after editing parts out. Then I put it on vimeo and I think it could look better. The file turned out to be ~120megs or so while it seems like others get better sizes out of movies much longer with better detail (mtb videos too like kidwoo's)...




So, this shouldn't be the camera, the editing software (this was done with Windows Movie Maker or whatever it is called), or anything aside from me not knowing what I'm doing, right?

And for those of you keeping score on the front range, it is obviously the enchanted forest trail with all short climbs cut completely out.... looks slow as balls without someone riding in front... oh well, the point comes across for quality/test purposes...

And more to the point, I'm taking something directly from the camera, editing via WMM, converting to AVI or MP4 or whatever it is via Handbrake using the codec of choice (divx, xvid, or h234(or whatever it is) and uploading that file to vimeo)... I don't have grand ideas of doing anything more than web clips, so I'm pretty happy with files that are under 100 megs that I upload and they disapear from my HD anyway... but I'd like the finished product to be a hair better. Am I limited by vimeo to what you see above??

I'm slightly confused by your post. Do you want help or not? I'll assume the first.

From my experience, vimeo seems to be the best web host right now for streaming video. I doubt it's your issue. I recommend thepiratebay.org, the words adobe premier, and a torrent client asap.

Vimeo can limit your video quality, but likely only if you're shooting with a nice, true HD camera (60fps). Even then, the videos look great, like this one: http://vimeo.com/2333560. Vimeo has reduced it's quality by switching it over to 30fps and a smaller resolution.

nice choice on Blackalicious.

FWIW Brett, I thought the footage looked pretty good. I don't expect high cinematic quality from POVs.

Thanks for the input guys. BT, that video you linked looks insanely good on there. But it was filmed in HD, output as such and uploaded intended to be presented in HD... so it is a totally different animal, no?

I have to believe there is some middle ground... like something between full HD quality and uber ghetto POV compressed quality... mostly because I'm surprised by the good quality the POV cam can produce (not anything near a real camera, but you know...), but you lose that instantly when compressing and further after uploading...

I dunno where to go with this anymore except to experiment I guess.

Here's the same thing with a higher data rate for the encoding process. Can you tell the difference between this and the one I posted above? I can't...



anyway /blog...

http://vimeo.com/help/compression

Originally Posted by beast

http://vimeo.com/help/compression

thanks. been there. actually that's what inspired me to test it online with a bunch of different settings and different data rates and so far I can only tell the slightest of difference between a low data rate and a high data rate... which is the factor, using the compression method they recommend, that should increase quality (and size)... but there is still more to experiment with I guess, so I'll keep playing with it and testing.

Thanks for listening to me whine though and digging up the link.

enchanted forest is fun

I don't like how the camera is crooked. The rest looks good but twist the camera to the left, I guess.

Originally Posted by beast

Vimeo can limit your video quality, but likely only if you're shooting with a nice, true HD camera (60fps). Even then, the videos look great, like this one: http://vimeo.com/2333560. Vimeo has reduced it's quality by switching it over to 30fps and a smaller resolution.

I don't know a lens cap from a bottle cap, but that video looks like the it's the best quality (and best composed) I think I've ever seen posted on the web.

Originally Posted by brettf

Here's the same thing with a higher data rate for the encoding process. Can you tell the difference between this and the one I posted above? I can't...

very subtle, but I thought the motion looked a little cleaner/more detailed. good questions, I have the same ones, but so far I'm just messing around with shitware WMM and Virtualdub so far. still have a lot of learning to do about compression (and SW upgrading).

Originally Posted by sierraskier

I don't know a lens cap from a bottle cap, but that video looks like the it's the best quality (and best composed) I think I've ever seen posted on the web.

They get better . . . http://vimeo.com/1520253

I can't wait for Apple's new iMovie to be released. Has some great features - like video stabilization and precision editing. Should help with the shakiness most of us experience while filming with crappy cameras. http://www.apple.com/ilife/imovie/#stabilization

Originally Posted by Rontele

nice choice on Blackalicious.

thanks - just made a new version, but lost the blackalicious file... oh well...

Originally Posted by Danno

FWIW Brett, I thought the footage looked pretty good. I don't expect high cinematic quality from POVs.

thanks dude - yeah, hardly a quality camera, but it is good for what it is.

Originally Posted by squatch

enchanted forest is fun

uhh, yeah it is. tell larry i have a present for him... just found out you work there... bought me some ballet slippers from him the other day... feet are killing me, but i'm ripping.

Originally Posted by sierraskier

I have the same ones, but so far I'm just messing around with shitware WMM and Virtualdub so far. still have a lot of learning to do about compression (and SW upgrading).

I've learned a ton in the last few days... and figured out stupid workarounds for all codec/format problems I have getting files from the POV system into Premiere... ask me if you're interested. Use VirtualDubMod instead of VirtualDub I found out btw... saves many headaches.

Originally Posted by beast

They get better . . . http://vimeo.com/1520253

Sick.

Originally Posted by beast

I can't wait for Apple's new iMovie to be released. Has some great features - like video stabilization and precision editing. Should help with the shakiness most of us experience while filming with crappy cameras. http://www.apple.com/ilife/imovie/#stabilization

I hung out with a buddy of mine today who does editing for the Dew Tour among other insane video projects and he showed me some Baja 1000 heli chase footage before and after "smoothing" in Final Cut Pro (same smoothing as iMovie). I was blown away how nice it looked.

I may actually pick up a Mac in the future if I get off my ass and film some more instead of just riding/skiing as much as I can. A helmet cam just slightly smoothed out would be really nice I think... plus editing on a mac = waaaay nicer.

at any rate, i finally got everything working. I managed to get this stuff into Premiere and work with it. I made a new post with it embedded http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148550. Initial quality of my export is much better, but vimeo pretty much negates all that... so here's the latest. If anyone is interested in seeing the finished product before vimeo butchered it, i can provide a link, but I'm not putting the link up for everyone... preserve some bandwidth, you know.

Originally Posted by brettf

uhh, yeah it is. tell larry i have a present for him... just found out you work there... bought me some ballet slippers from him the other day... feet are killing me, but i'm ripping.

You ski?

(Or were you the person that asked us to put some ski boot heaters in a bike shoe? )

Looks like I'm late to the party but here are a few points.


HD or SD doesn't really mean a whole lot for vimeo. You can get great looking SD footage and it's actually easier to do so because you don't need to resize.

Pow day snow footage looks better because there's more light which video sensors NEED in order to get crisp images, and snow is a hell of a lot smoother than your rattling helmet on single track.

The smoothing program in final cut is badass. I don't know final cut at all but I've seen results from before and after and it's legit.

In the absence of final cut, what I've been using is a plugin called deshaker for a freeware program called vDub. Find it. Learn it. You'll love it once you get it figured out. I can't even watch any of my old videos anymore without getting sick, I've gotten so used to seeing things like my cable cam runs with deshaker. If you want I can send you some examples of what I've done with it.

And generally speaking, if you're going to be doing this a bunch, I'm still an advocate of just buying your own host site. It's not that expensive and you have full control over your file output.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

Looks like I'm late to the party but here are a few points.


HD or SD doesn't really mean a whole lot for vimeo. You can get great looking SD footage and it's actually easier to do so because you don't need to resize.

Pow day snow footage looks better because there's more light which video sensors NEED in order to get crisp images, and snow is a hell of a lot smoother than your rattling helmet on single track.

The smoothing program in final cut is badass. I don't know final cut at all but I've seen results from before and after and it's legit.

In the absence of final cut, what I've been using is a plugin called deshaker for a freeware program called vDub. Find it. Learn it. You'll love it once you get it figured out. I can't even watch any of my old videos anymore without getting sick, I've gotten so used to seeing things like my cable cam runs with deshaker. If you want I can send you some examples of what I've done with it.

And generally speaking, if you're going to be doing this a bunch, I'm still an advocate of just buying your own host site. It's not that expensive and you have full control over your file output.

Took me about 4 minutes to get deshaker installed and running. Badass!

Now while I haven't figured it out yet, the default results are WAAAY aggressive. I'm amazed that it can do what it does!! It totally makes the riding look sluggish and it is interesting how it appears to remove a lot of the pumps I do in some of the corners or almost remove them anyway. There looks to be a lot of configuration to it that can address some of these issues. Awesome.

Good call and thanks for pointing that plugin out woo.

and yes, the best answer is just using my host to deliver actual files instead of vimeo, but that vimeo player... it's just so damn cute vimeo is way convenient, but the output sucks.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

In the absence of final cut, what I've been using is a plugin called deshaker for a freeware program called vDub. Find it. Learn it. You'll love it once you get it figured out. I can't even watch any of my old videos anymore without getting sick, I've gotten so used to seeing things like my cable cam runs with deshaker. If you want I can send you some examples of what I've done with it.

deshaker is cool, thanks for the tip kidwoo. downloads and installs in like 1 minute. I really need to spend some time learning and messing around with this and the compression settings. the only thing I've ever done up until now is 1 pass with H.264. did one test with default deshaker filter and got crazy smoothing, but at the cost of some image quality (some blurring and some rounding of the corners of the frame). need to do some more experimenting...

I had to wipe my internet browser (not actually due to porn this time!) and lost all my bookmarks. But there are some tutorials out there that get you started on deshaker in a way applicable to whatever you're doing.

I use it for cable cam stuff and some very minor helmet cam footage. But for the pov/helmet stuff, I only use a camera on smooth trails to begin with because no one wants to see 5 minutes of shitty shaken up crap. Know what I mean?

Originally Posted by brettf

I hung out with a buddy of mine today who does editing for the Dew Tour among other insane video projects and he showed me some Baja 1000 heli chase footage before and after "smoothing" in Final Cut Pro (same smoothing as iMovie). I was blown away how nice it looked.

Did your buddy also announce at the Dew Tour previously and make ski films back in the day? If so, we may have the same buddy. Small world.

There can't be that many dudes doing that stuff in Golden. Greg knows everyone - its scary... hah.

Originally Posted by brettf

There can't be that many dudes doing that stuff in Golden. Greg knows everyone - its scary... hah.

No joke! I NEED his lifestyle, and maybe some of the sweet shades he wears all the time.