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Thread: Review: Surface Live Life 2
03-24-2009, 10:54 AM #26I suspect that with such a short running length, mounting point is critical. I wouldn't have wanted to mount any further back: where I was, I already had to use some shin pressure to initiate, and if I were back at "There There There", I doubt I would have been able to carve turns at all. If you're back at "There There There", I'd seriously consider mounting at least 3cm forward even if you never ski switch.
I'd not want to move 3cm forward -- to do so would produce tip dive. I know this, as in 25cm+ if I aggressively lean the ski forward, it dives significantly due to the pronounced rocker. I need as much flat running length in front as possible in order to drive the ski aggressively.
But this is also a question of style -- this ski is meant to be pivoted from the quads, not driven, and skied at moderate speed, not balls-out.
I'm curious where people are riding. In a place like Whistler, variable conditions are the norm, and there are long traverses, cats, ice, raincrud and crap to get back to the lift. In these conditions many skis are tough to ride -- I was riding with friends on Mantras, and they were having trouble, hooking edges, yadda yadda -- but in these conditions the LL/2s become simply unskiable, and a difference of 1cm on the mount point is not going to change the performance of the ski much. I'm not complaining -- this ski has a specific shape to do what it does, and it's not meant to be an all-around ski. But if you are skiing well on groomers with these, I suspect you are probably on some fairly easy terrain. With a running length of a snowblade, no triaxial base and severely rockered tips & tails, these skis simply cannot carve nor perform like a rockered ski such as a Lhasa or 120. And that's just the fact of it.
What I have considered is DETUNING THE EDGES at the point where the rocker curves up, as this is the point that is constantly hooking, causing bad deflection, squirelling, and overall madness. While this will further reduce the running length, it might reduce caught edges. Has anyone else done this..?
I still think this ski would kick ass if the tail rocker was reduced... it would also allow the ski to perform better on landing. I find the ski is unreliable on drops over 10'... it needs more tail in pow to sustain a hard landing, as if you land forward it throws you head-over-heels...
03-24-2009, 11:14 AM #27
Sandflea & Spats -- if you manage to get these out into the deep, let me know how they perform with the more centered mount point. Given that I'm not bringing them out unless it dumps, I might remount if the feedback is good. I just hate putting more holes in my skis.
03-24-2009, 11:47 AM #28
sandflea: Great news! I'm glad the remount worked out for you.
I had the LL2s out again yesterday. Very little pure pow, but I got several pockets and a lot of chop ranging from "a few tracks" to "mostly packed", plus a lot of groomers/cat tracks. Conditions were mostly wintery snow but got heavy at the end of the day.
The LL2s are *astoundingly* poppy in pow. Angulate hard enough into a turn and they bounce you right back out...or leave them flatter and just surf like you would on any reverse camber ski. Don't be afraid of shin pressure...the rocker keeps you on top of the snow.
They destroy crud of any kind. The slow-rise tips knife straight through anything and don't slow you down at all. You'll find yourself with a lot more speed than on traditional skis -- or even Spatulas, which dig in and slow down a lot when you lean forward on them.
Not the LL2. I was unable to bury the tips, even when I spent entire runs leaning on the front of my boots. This is how the LL2s like to be skied: get your hands forward, push some shin pressure, trust the tip rocker, and carve straight through the chop like you're Bode Miller. The more angulation you give, the harder they'll come around: in pow and chop, instead of pushing more weight to the outside ski to get a harder carve, just roll your knees into the hill like you're on a groomer.
Plus, since the graphics are different from ski to ski, you might be as much as 2-2.5cm back from my line, which would equal 4-5cm on a regular ski -- a gigantic difference. What's your boot center measurement with straight tape from the tip? Mine is 98.5cm, and when I remount for jondrums' Dynafit/Duke plates, I'll go 0.5-1cm forward of that.
Haven't done any hucking on them yet.
As far as conditions, I ski Tahoe, which has a similar snowpack and temperature range to Whistler. I had the LL2s out at Heavenly, which has even more cat tracks and ugly traverses than Whistler/Blackcomb, and they're fine -- a billion times easier than Spatulas and nearly as easy as normal skis. I can carve huge GS arcs on groomers all day, and the only situation in which I got them to chatter was 40 degree almost-ice in Mott Canyon.
I bet your problem is that you're still mounted too far back. Like I said, I'm 98.5cm straight tape from the tip, and I would go 0.5-1cm forward of that.
03-24-2009, 04:01 PM #29
^^ Yah, you are significantly forward. My boot center is about 102/103cm from tip (assuming you are taking the measuring tape, attaching to tip, and pulling straight down without angle? -- just checkin'). I'm mounted about 1cm forward of 'There There There'.
98.5cm on my pair measures at the midpoint between Here & There.
If moving forward increases all-around performance, I'm there... or closer to Here. Whatever. Everything you say about the pow I'm down with, and perhaps moving forward won't change the tip-dive much.
That said none of you folks have got this pair out yet in the serious deep .. ;-)
03-24-2009, 05:26 PM #30
Thanks once again Spats.
Kyber- My home mountain is Snowbird, I haven't had them out in the deep yet, (not pure pow), just grabby dust on crust. Moving the mount for me improved the all around performance for me. My graphics were also off by about 1cm. I think Spats is dead on with his assessment of how they ski and should be skied in different conditions, I've experienced the same.
03-24-2009, 05:49 PM #31
I usually don't always trust the internets, but you kids are making me think I should move forward my mount, and ski it more centred like a park ski. This is how it wants to be skied, I guess.
04-01-2009, 05:19 PM #32
^^^ I'm moving out to the coast this summer, so I'll be on the hill with the LL2's as well. They work out better with the forward mount?
04-01-2009, 06:02 PM #33
Okay, who's been on these things in the Rockies this week? I'm in New England just drooling at the weather reports from out there. Thinking about squashing some spring NE mush with them this weekend.
04-01-2009, 06:14 PM #34
If all goes according to plan I'll be skiing them this weekend. This week has been hell at work so I've been avoiding the snow reports. I really deserve a sick day.
All right 3 weeks later I got to take these out for two days this past weekend.
Me: 6'2" 170 advanced skier but not as good as most here. My everyday inbounds ski is an 06/07 K2 Seth in 179. Ski mostly at Loveland and Berthoud Pass lately.
I followed Spats' mounting advice (thanks to Marshal at Green Mountain Sports) and I think that this is the key. The mount was money. Both days were at Loveland with 30 something inches over 2 days. Pretty much untracked knee deep all day long. These are my first funshape ski. In the deep they kill it. So easy to ski and there is no way to stuff a tip. You have to stay centered as the lack of a tail will leave you falling over backwards if you get in the backseat. I can't say enough good things about these in powder, it's probably initial funshape stoke but I could ski tight trees with ease and mach down untracked lines taking any type of turns I wanted. I usually don't take air that much but these convinced me that I need to go a little bigger than my normal 5'. Just land centered and you ski right out of it.
On the groomed they're manageable, I didn't find them squirrelly and wasn't too concerned about groomer performance other than getting back to the lift. They do that just fine. You can carve turns they just aren't huge arcing groomer turns. They're stable straightlining back to the lift you just need to pay attention as they will shoot off into random directions if you don't.
Cut-up pow these are great as, once again, you can't stuff a tip. Just look at where you want to turn and as long as it's soft you carve a turn or pivot.
I have never skied trees as fast as I did with these. You can turn wherever you want and dump speed to sneak through small openings. I can't wait to take these into the BC and ski trees.
I'll be mounting these up with Duke's or Baron's next year as I can't imagine not wanting to take these on road hits at Berthoud or Loveland Pass.
Last edited by concretejungle; 04-22-2009 at 08:07 PM.
04-01-2009, 09:27 PM #35
I haven't changed the mount yet. On the injured list for two weeks. I'll see how conditions are at that point. I'm not sure I will change the mount. They ride great in deep pow as-is, and I don't think I'll use the LL/2 as an all-around ski.
04-15-2009, 11:45 AM #36
hey folks, thought I would update my review as I finally had a chance to move my mount point 3cm forward & the difference is drastic.
After enjoying Monday's beautiful April powder day here in Whistler, I couldn't take the near-death experiences on cat track & groomers requiring monster thighs to keep the skis from twisting right off (which was also painful on a recently sprained MCL). So I moved the mount point 3cm forward, just in-between HERE & THERE as recommended (thanks Spats & Sandflea!).
Results: Tuesday, in chop & deep (thigh deep at points) the ski floated just as well, AND I would say carved much better in pow. The ski could now arc and was much more stable at high speed, also much more stable in the landing zone. I also found I could now hop around in powder -- literally spring the ski between front & back and make it eject on command. So I actually think the ski performs better closer to a centre mount (this is about -3/-4cm from true).
On cat tracks, the skis were still a little grabby in the ice lines & rain crud, but I could now stand tall and flat and guide them with minimal knee or thigh pressure. Once on groomers, I could actually carve the ski (!!), even forcing edges on ice, and ripping down through spring melt slop with no hesitation whatsoever. The ski was much, much more stable at speed. It doesn't feel like you're on rails -- this is not as stable or versatile as a less-rockered ski like a Lotus, Lhasa, Czar, S7 etc -- but it didn't feel like you were out of control on a snowblade either. It was closer to being on a park ski, with the centre point somewhat underfoot, allowing the ski to slurve and carve directly underneath.
So -- MASSIVE difference. I would recommend that no matter what the conditions or terrains, that the mount point be no farther back than -3cm from HERE. I would not mount this ski at THERE for any conditions that I can imagine.
04-16-2009, 09:50 PM #37
mounted mine -5cm based on sean and others recommendation for an old guy who skis face first. Mine have the LL1 graphics so the lines didn't mean much. After reading Spats post I measured my mount and it's pretty much right on the money for his recommendation.
Had them out today in spring new england conditions and they were fun, real fun. Has anyone skied the LL2 and the Lhasa's to be able to draw any comparison/contrasts between the two? I haven't had the pleasure of trying the Lhasa.
04-17-2009, 05:09 PM #38
The Lhasas are a completely different ski, there is no comparison here. The LL/2 is a smear ski, jibstyle, with pop & butter functions, full switch, whereas the Lhasa is a throw-down bigline ski. While the LL/2 has amazing stability in the deep considering its short running length, it's the Lhasa you want to be on if you need a more effective edge or are stomping air greater than 15 feet. Also the Lhasa is a better all-around ski on groomers, hardpack, chop.
I took my Lotuses out today after riding the LL/2s the past week and it was a very weird experience.. so much shovel to deal with ! ;p
04-21-2009, 07:45 AM #39
Thanks for the input Kyber.
04-21-2009, 12:16 PM #40
Lhasa = Jackson beast. Also put Dukes on and you have a solid slackcountry rig that will stomp inbounds.
LL/2 is more of a playful thing .. though I am tempted to bring it into some gnar once it gets deep. It is surprisingly agile in tight spots I find. J
05-06-2009, 01:55 AM #41
anybody ski the Live Life "original" model with the slight tip rocker?
also, hearing a lot about them skiing short...was intrigued by the LL in a 179 as a potential AT set-up (i'm 5'11' and 170ish and thinking perhaps something a wee bit shorter than a 189 might be in the cards).
thoughts?"Man, we killin' elephants in the back yard..."
05-06-2009, 10:40 AM #42
05-29-2009, 04:35 PM #43Huck and roll
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Fort Collins
just purchased these bad boys basically because of this review and because i found a super good price... i will definitely be using those mounting instructions and thanks to all you guys who contributed to this thread!
11-05-2009, 08:29 AM #44
Bit of a bump, same position as you Jhostmann21, got the opportunity to pick up a pair for $250. any more info on the skis that might be useful to me? looking to these as a fun shape ski for the upcoming season in Tignes France, so variable conditions, i'm 6ft 2 about 175lbs, is this enough ski for me?
11-05-2009, 01:17 PM #45
If you ride newschool style, this ski will be plenty fun -- not sure what else to say that hasn't been drilled to death here. Ski'em and tell us how you like it.
11-05-2009, 05:53 PM #46
Newschool style meaning pillow drops and butters etc. then thats more the kind of ski i want this to be in my quiver so that would be sick, just wondering about people saying they cant really lean into the front of there boots for fear of tip dive, which doesn't sound great, but hey if there as fun as everyone says they are i will definately live with it, hopefully this deal comes through, supposedly getting a pair of last years mounted but unskied for $225,suppose for the price i cant go wrong!
11-05-2009, 11:40 PM #47
Make sure and check the mounting point as per this thread: if you're too far back from 98cm straight tape from the tip, you'll have no edge control. "There There There" is way too far back.
12-30-2009, 04:58 PM #48
Bumping up this thread, I fucking love these skis. 189s mounted at 98.5cm from the tip with a 326 bsl. 190lbs 5'11.
Skis I have liked: obsethed, praxis pow, lhasa, hellbent, mantra,
disliked: anything made by icelantic
Powder: I have had them out for one day so far on pow, super windblown pow. There was between 3-14 inches of pow. The skis float effortlessly. No dive even on slower speeds.
Crud: The stiffness of these skis combined with the rocker makes these skis amazing in crud and cut up powder.
Trees: These skis are super nimble in the trees. My son is 5'8 160lbs. He tried them out and had no problems in the trees. Smaller guys will be fine with the larger 189 size.
Groomers: This surprised me a lot. I could rail groomer turns on these. With the proper detuning of the rockered part the ski, it was not hooky at all. These easily outperform the hellbents on groomers.
Overall: This could seriously be a quiver of one. I really like the ski. Two of my buddies and my son tried these. Everyone loved them.
Additional comments: I hit a rock doing about 30. As soon as I heard the noise I was thinking core shot. I got very slight scratching. Amazing base durability. The topsheets didn't chip at all. Make sure you detune this ski if you get it, The abrupt rocker could make for an awfully hooky ride. The skis are pretty light. I'd say a bit lighter than hellbents but that's just holding the two skis together so not very accurate.
12-30-2009, 06:55 PM #49
But all this is moot. I have ridden these skis the most so far this season, which says a lot about Whistler's record pow this year, but also about the surprising versatility of these planks..!
12-30-2009, 07:30 PM #50
what Kyber said. I've made the tips dive and they came right back up like a dolphin. I love these things.
plus you get to talk to people about how you slammed your skis in the trunk of your car and it made them better.