Thread: CPR

With all the recent talk about wearing beacons inbounds and "you should have this gear and that gear" and doing at least a dozen practice searches every hour, there is absolutely no talk about what happens after the slide and subsequent search are over.

How many actually have any kind of CPR/1st aid training? Or is the main goal just to find lifeless bodies in .0005 seconds?

I would love to see a mandatory first responder course for senior year of high school*.
I took my courses then (including firefighting) and I believe it helped me gain confidence, leadership skills, and taught me a little bit about something called "mortality" ...which senior in HS couldn't benefit from that one?

*Of course, it will never happen. You need more then a sharp, #2 pencil to participate

How many folks know that the CPR protocol has changed since you took that course years ago?

30 compressions 2 breaths and repeat

THATS THIRTY COMPRESSIONS !!!

They found out that pumping the blood is way more critical than getting more air in the lungs.

http://www.redcross.org/services/hss/courses/quiz.html

Originally Posted by My Pet Powder Goat

I would love to see a mandatory first responder course for senior year of high school*.
I took my courses then (including firefighting) and I believe it helped me gain confidence, leadership skills, and taught me a little bit about something called "mortality" ...which senior in HS couldn't benefit from that one?

*Of course, it will never happen. You need more then a sharp, #2 pencil to participate

When my kids turn 16 they're going to spend a shift with me on the medic rig to learn about mortality.

WFR training is invaluable. CPR at the LEAST.
Powder Goat, the high school idea is brilliant...do you think anyone could lobby nationally for this? Or at least a credited course, for higher college/SAT placement?

Also for the lay rescuer, if you find a stranger down and don't want to do "mouth to mouth" with out a barrier, just do compressions. There's enough oxygen in the blood to last a while.

If you know the person and are willing to do "mouth to mouth", or if you have a barrier device for rescue breathing, by all means do it in the 30:2 ratio stated above.

Hard to believe but here in backwoods Montana, Red Cross advanced first aid is required to graduate from High School.

And MPPG, it should be required everywhere.

I agree with powder goat's comment. I took my EMT Basic in my senior year of high school (last year) and it really gave me a big confidence boost. I really do think that there should be a mandatory first aid course to graduate high school. But to make it effective, they need to put more effort into it than they do for other things like PE.

ACLS training (Advanced Cardiac Life Support - same training as docs for codes)
EMT-Basic / Advanced, working on Paramedic
Ice Water Rescue
PHTLS (Prehospital trauma life support - Not sure if it works to decompress a chest with a ball point pen like in MASH)

I really want to take a wilderness medic / search and resuce class, or at least OEC to supplement what I know for the streets. I don't think the first responder class should be mandatory, I know a lot of high school kids that couldn't handle the content of the course. I do think that basic first aiid / CPR should be taught to everyone in school.

Originally Posted by Jer

How many actually have any kind of CPR/1st aid training? Or is the main goal just to find lifeless bodies in .0005 seconds?

On an interesting note, I will be getting another round of training next week.
As part of both corporate and on site insurance policies for work, I am required to have yearly training if I want into to hospitals to do my job (enginerd for hospital equipment).

Last time I had training was when my daughter was born, so that is now 4 years. Looking forward to learning the new techniques.

WEMT
Swiftwater III
Avi I

WFR is just as important (if not more) as Avi 1. imvho

EMT B (PA)
WEMT
OEC
ROPE/Vertical CAVE RESCUE
AVI 1
Mountain Travel and Rescue 1&2

The CPR class you took in highschool and the FA class you took a couple years ago are INADEQUATE. You should be refreshing these skills or you will fail to use them to any effect.

I don't want to ski avi terrain with someone who can't do jack shit to help me other than dig me up.

Originally Posted by Summit

You should be refreshing these skills or you will fail to use them to any effect.

Yeah - it's just like practising a lot with beacons. I'm not saying everyone should get one of those dummys or break your friend's ribs, but at least go through the motions enough to keep it fresh in your mind.

RN student (going for NA education when the time is ripe), CPR repetitions at least once a year, before that a couple of years in the Red Cross Youth.

Basic CPR should be mandatory training for all participants of society.

Good thread, Jer!

Originally Posted by Core Shot

How many folks know that the CPR protocol has changed since you took that course years ago?

30 compressions 2 breaths and repeat

THATS THIRTY COMPRESSIONS !!!

They found out that pumping the blood is way more critical than getting more air in the lungs.

http://www.redcross.org/services/hss/courses/quiz.html

Interestingly enough I took a class in March and was told breathless CPR was the new protocol. 100 chest compressions, check for signs on life, and repeat until advanced medical care arrives. I guess they found it to be just as effective as the 30 and 2 method without the risk of transferring pathogens from victim to responder.

Either way..I agree it should be some type of mandatory training for students.

Originally Posted by bostonski

Interestingly enough I took a class in March and was told breathless CPR was the new protocol. 100 chest compressions, check for signs on life, and repeat until advanced medical care arrives. I guess they found it to be just as effective as the 30 and 2 method without the risk of transferring pathogens from victim to responder.

This is what is being taught to the lay person. This is due to the pathophysiology amongst most adult arrests, ie the heart stops not due to respiratory distress, but rather due to occlusion of an coronary artery (the blood supply to the heart) so the blood is still oxygenated sufficiently to sustain the brain in compression only CPR until the ambulance arrives ideally in 8 minutes (also better and more consistent perfusion pressures are reached). It was also due to the fact that lay persons were unwilling to do any CPR in many instances because they thought they had to give mouth-to-mouth and had no barrier.

BREATHLESS CPR IS NOT A GOOD PRACTICE FOR AVALANCHE VICTIMS (or drowning victims or choking victims)

Avalanche victims who can be saved by CPR went into arrest because of hypoxia, not enough oxygen. (or a combination of hypoxia, hypercapnia, and maybe hypothermia) No air made their heart stop. Therefor, simply circulating their unoxygenated blood will do very little to help. They need breaths and compressions.

For this reason, I recommend in the strongest terms possible that:
All backcountry recreationists should take a CPR class meant for rescuers or health care providers that teaches CPR with rescue breaths and that they carry a CPR barrier or pocket mask to protect from pathogen exposure.

I got my first aid and cpr training as a graduation requirement from high school. I almost certainly need a refresher, but it's better than nothing.

keep in mind the context

avy situations are respiratory arrests in people with great hearts

the ACLS recommendations are for all-comers of a patient population with crappy hearts that you're trying to circulate meds with

If you dig me up, ventilate me

Originally Posted by Summit

This is what is being taught to the lay person. This is due to the pathophysiology amongst most adult arrests, ie the heart stops not due to respiratory distress, but rather due to occlusion of an coronary artery (the blood supply to the heart) so the blood is still oxygenated sufficiently to sustain the brain in compression only CPR until the ambulance arrives ideally in 8 minutes (also better and more consistent perfusion pressures are reached). It was also due to the fact that lay persons were unwilling to do any CPR in many instances because they thought they had to give mouth-to-mouth and had no barrier.

BREATHLESS CPR IS NOT A GOOD PRACTICE FOR AVALANCHE VICTIMS (or drowning victims or choking victims)

Avalanche victims who can be saved by CPR went into arrest because of hypoxia, not enough oxygen. (or a combination of hypoxia, hypercapnia, and maybe hypothermia) No air made their heart stop. Therefor, simply circulating their unoxygenated blood will do very little to help. They need breaths and compressions.

For this reason, I recommend in the strongest terms possible that:
All backcountry recreationists should take a CPR class meant for rescuers or health care providers that teaches CPR with rescue breaths and that they carry a CPR barrier or pocket mask to protect from pathogen exposure.

Originally Posted by spicy cha cha

keep in mind the context

avy situations are respiratory arrests in people with great hearts

the ACLS recommendations are for all-comers of a patient population with crappy hearts that you're trying to circulate meds with

If you dig me up, ventilate me

Both great points...didn't think about it like that.

Currently got, CPR (PR), Lifeguard, and OEC. I'm starting WFR in 8 days. I'm trying to figure out getting EMT-B in during the next one and a half years of college, but it doesn't look like it will happen (field courses + dick EMT prof). I currently have Avi 1 and I'm trying to figure out how to get 2. Probably going to do Swiftwater in the spring.

OEC (and CPR) were both part of my high school experiance, but patrolling was my winter sport, so that didn't quite apply to the whole school. The rest of the school learned a bit, but no structured course. I think the nurses preferred to try to teach us, so they would only have to deal with the really interesting shit in the end. My school was in the middle of what most people term west bumfuck Maine, so that might have had something to do with it.

wfr is by far one of the most useful courses i have ever taken in my entire life. if you consider yourself to be any sort of an active, outdoorsy person then you should strongly consider taking it.

i'm definitely looking forward to the wfr to emt course i am taking next semester.

Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

I got my first aid and cpr training as a graduation requirement from high school. I almost certainly need a refresher, but it's better than nothing.

FWIW, the Redcross in Bozeman is a JOKE.

I always seem to try to renew my CPR just after it expires, so I have to take the whole course instead of test out. I've been certified by 5 different places and bozeman was pathetic. Some people didn't do compressions or breaths because the instructor didn't want to make people do it.

Just refreshed my EMT-B, CPR for healthcare providers. Have an expired WFR. Considering the Wilderness upgrade to WEMT. Anyone know how it compares to the WFR?

I'm not positive on the differences between the wfr and wemt. However, in Indiana the First Responder class is not much different than the EMT-Basic. The Basic EMT course goes a little more in depth in pathophysiology, and more in depth in shock management. The EMT is also allowed to administer a limited amount of medications, EpiPens, Albuterol Inhalers, ASA, as well as secure the airway with a combitube or king lt-d device. EMT's are trained to use the KED to immobilize someone as well.

All that being said, the differences are minimal. EMT is probably not necessary unless you are really curious or plan on working / volunteering in the field. EpiPens and MDIs are extremely easy to use, and you and your ski partners are only going to carry them if they need them, and then you'd know how to use them anyways.

You're not going to carry advanced airway devices or a KED with you in the backcountry.

For anyone getting CPR, I have nothing against the red cross, but if I were you I would call your local hospital, fire station, or ambulance service and inquire about the American Heart Association Healthcare Provider course. It teaches CPR + AED use, how to use basic airway adjuncts (NPA, OPA), Bag Valve Masks, or pocket masks for ventilation.

This is the basic standard for all health care professionals. Doctors included.