Thread: Possible coup d’état in Canada

Liberals and Socialists are teaming up with the separatists in an attempt to overthrow the elected government and form a government that will be unelected and have even less representation in Parliament.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/11/28/fed-govt.html

For those who aren't familier with Canadian politics, we currently have a minority government that holds 144 out of 308 seats. Since they have less than half (155+) they can be overthrown with a vote of non-confidence in the government. What usually happens (as was the case with the 2006 election that tossed Paul Martin) is the Governor General will drop the writ and call and election.

Since we just had an election the Liberals (77 seats) and NDP (37 seats) are hoping the GG will offer them a chance to form a government instead of holding another election. In other words, we'd end up with an unelected government that depended on the separatist party to get into power. Fucking weak sauce.

Welcome to Cubanada.

Canada has an army?

See? The US TOTALLY needs to have more parties in Congress!

Well, Harper pledged things like "my commitment to the opposition leaders is to find common ground to move the Parliament forward productively because I know no one wants to talk about another election right now," then turned around and tried to fuck over all the opposition parties by adding a proposal to a fiscal update to cut public funding to opposition parties. The CPC knows that money bills are confidence votes and that the other parties could vote it down and therefore end the minority government, but instead of "finding common ground to move parliament forward", the CPC has taken a serious problem (the economy), tried to use it to cripple their opposition financially, and put the country at risk of another election. Maybe they thought the Liberals would be pussies like in the past and abstain from voting to avoid an election. Instead, the Libs have grown a backbone and talked to the NDP to actually find some common ground to move parliament forward

Anyway, this isn't "Cubanada", this is exactly how our political system is designed to work. Just like you can become the leader of the country with 37.65% of the popular vote like the cons did recently (got that stat from wikipedia, but it's close if not exact), you can also form a coalition government if the opposition parties don't show confidence in the minority government.

Having said that, I'm not sure if a coalition will be better or not. I am not a fan of "stimulus packages" and the potential coalition has already proposed a $30B package.

Originally Posted by Tippster

See? The US TOTALLY needs to have more parties in Congress!

that's a shot in my direction, so i feel like i should address it:

- all of those in parliament were officially and legally elected. one can't really say that lack of majority constitutes lack of ability to govern: all of them have it by default. the only rule is that they need a majority of the votes, which you implicitly assume should only fall between party lines. true for the US, not true for canada.

- the tories will have as much chance to break legislation as they now have to make it. a government based on the precarious balance of a coalition such as this will be very unstable. if anything, it will be a short and trying time for an experiment that will be very educational for harper, as well as for everyone else

- by having more parties there is more chance to stir up the pot. the current crisis has already been beneficial in causing the tories to drop controversial budget items. with a two-party system you're locked in filibustering, but here things are unraveling in much more interesting directions without causing all that much harm

- a separatist minority in a ruling coalition? call me whatever you wish, but i think that's the most interesting thing to have happened since Bucephalos went to the roman senate

it all comes down to choice. 3 > 2 for that reason: it's a less stable system than the pendulum you have in your country. yes, perhaps less can be done in such a system, but that also means less can be broken too. if i start with the premise that there is nothing wrong with the country now, i would much rather see things stay the same than a series of major changes.

Secret taping and transcripts! Oooooo!

Originally Posted by Jukes

tried to fuck over all the opposition parties by adding a proposal to a fiscal update to cut public funding to opposition parties.

Actually, that was a reduction in public funding to all parties, including the conservatives. It would have saved the government $17M per year, and would have cost the conservatives the most (since it was a $1.25 per vote subsidy, and they had the most votes in the last election).

Plans were already well in place to try and overthrow the government and form a coalition (NDP conference call tapes from before the fiscal update was released) and all Dion and Layton needed was an excuse, any excuse, to try and acompish it.

Anyway, this isn't "Cubanada", this is exactly how our political system is designed to work. Just like you can become the leader of the country with 37.65% of the popular vote like the cons did recently (got that stat from wikipedia, but it's close if not exact), you can also form a coalition government if the opposition parties don't show confidence in the minority government.

Seems a lot of people like to throw that 37.65% number around, completely ignorant that Crooked Jean ruled for 3 consecutive majority governments (93, 97, 2000) without ever securing more than 41.8% of the popular vote. Sorry, but that argument simply doesn't fly.

I'd also like to see an example of where the ruling federal party lost a vote of confidence, and was replaced with a coalition that held less seats.

The fact is that Canadians did not vote for Dion, in fact, his party saw it's worst returns in living memory under his leadership, with a significant loss of seats and popular vote. Making him PM is very, very undemocratic. Now we're going to see him, and all of the policies we voted against (green shift, etc) come back.

Also, convention dictates that the GG (or LG, if provincial) will only accept a coalition if it can guarantee it will be able to survive confidence votes. The only way this one can do that is if it's in bed with the separatists, and it scares me to think what they're going to ask for in return. Not that it matters, Western seperation will become the bigger issue if this goes through. The new coalition will have exactly two seats total to split between SK and AB, now that's representation!

Having said that, I'm not sure if a coalition will be better or not. I am not a fan of "stimulus packages" and the potential coalition has already proposed a $30B package.

I agree. Spending major coin in the middle of a recession, when tax revenues are down, is retarded.

Actually it would have saved the government $30 million a year. It was an extremely tactical move that Harper knew was going to be an issue, but clearly didn't think it would get this blown out of proportion. But that is beside the point right now. The point is we could have a Liberal-Communist coalition government that is dependent on Separatists for survival. Scary, scary shit. No wonder the TSX is in the tank today.

What is most unbelievable is over the past 2 years how many times Dion and the opposition has threatened to bring down the government. He said he'd vote against them for not holding up their end of the bargain when it came to Kyoto, and he didn't. He said he would absolutely not accept anything but a February 2009 pullout from Afghanistan and would bring down the government if that weren't the case, and then accepted a 2011 date and the government lived on. He criticized the 2008 budget because spending was at record levels, said it couldn't stand, and then still voted with the Tories to prolong the government. And now the opposition is all up in arms because the Tories aren't spending enough?? What the fuck? The truth of the matter is the Liberals don't care about a fucking thing except themselves. So the possibility of losing ~$6 million in funding for their party is where they actually step in to end the government. This is an entirely selfish maneuver and has absolutely nothing to do with a more stable Canada. Harper fucked up, you called his bluff, he met you demands and his party is likely pissed at him. That's your win, don't push your luck.

By the way there is a 3rd option besides election or coalition government. The Governor General could refuse Harper's resignation (after a successful no-confidence vote on the part of the "coalition") and tell these fucking babies to suck it up and get back to work. I hope to god she had a brain in her head and isn't too influenced by her separatist husband.

Its not a coup. when there is a confidence motion and the governing minority party loses then if the other parties can form a majority then they can rule.

Its like some sort of greek tragedy. With Harper not learning from his past mistakes and being a small minded little turd. Never has there been a worse time for a coalition of parties that hate each other and no common ground other than they have no support in west and most have polices thathurt the west and really don't care. all of them harper, dion and layton should rot in hell.

Originally Posted by wren

Actually it would have saved the government $30 million a year. It was an extremely tactical move that Harper knew was going to be an issue, but clearly didn't think it would get this blown out of proportion. But that is beside the point right now. The point is we could have a Liberal-Communist coalition government that is dependent on Separatists for survival. Scary, scary shit. No wonder the TSX is in the tank today.

Wait until they're in power. I live in Ontario during the early 90s and know full well what a commie government does to an economy and a government's treasury.

Originally Posted by wren

What is most unbelievable is over the past 2 years how many times Dion and the opposition has threatened to bring down the government. He said he'd vote against them for not holding up their end of the bargain when it came to Kyoto, and he didn't. He said he would absolutely not accept anything but a February 2009 pullout from Afghanistan and would bring down the government if that weren't the case, and then accepted a 2011 date and the government lived on. He criticized the 2008 budget because spending was at record levels, said it couldn't stand, and then still voted with the Tories to prolong the government. And now the opposition is all up in arms because the Tories aren't spending enough?? What the fuck? The truth of the matter is the Liberals don't care about a fucking thing except themselves. So the possibility of losing ~$6 million in funding for their party is where they actually step in to end the government. This is an entirely selfish maneuver and has absolutely nothing to do with a more stable Canada. Harper fucked up, you called his bluff, he met you demands and his party is likely pissed at him. That's your win, don't push your luck.

^^^ Absolutely the fucking truth. This has nothing to do about the cons canceling political subsidies, or not spending billions on a stimulus package. It has everything to do with grabbing power at any cost. Even if that cost is to the extreme detriment of the nation.

The fucking Liberals think they're entitled to be in power and that fucktard Dion does not want to be the 2nd Liberal leader since confederation to not become PM.

Originally Posted by wren

By the way there is a 3rd option besides election or coalition government. The Governor General could refuse Harper's resignation (after a successful no-confidence vote on the part of the "coalition") and tell these fucking babies to suck it up and get back to work. I hope to god she had a brain in her head and isn't too influenced by her separatist husband.

That is a really good possibility, and it would be legal for her to do so. She could also just drop the writ and let the people decide. I suspect that the Liberals and NDP would be punished harshly if that happens. The problem is her separatist husband, and Liberal appointment.

Absolutely fucking disgusting:



Liberals, NDP, Bloc sign deal on proposed coalition

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Actually, that was a reduction in public funding to all parties, including the conservatives.

Entirely true, but Conservatives typically get more private donations and as such it makes a bigger dent in the other parties bottom line. This article says that the loss of public funding would result in the Cons losing 37% of their revenue, while the Libs would lose 63%, the bloc would lose 86%, the NDP would lose 57%, and the Greens would lose 65% of their funding.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Plans were already well in place to try and overthrow the government and form a coalition (NDP conference call tapes from before the fiscal update was released) and all Dion and Layton needed was an excuse, any excuse, to try and acompish it.

Well yeah, as soon as a minority govt is elected, the other parties are going to be organizing themselves. IMHO, The only shady thing about the NDP/Bloc tapes is how the cons obtained them.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Seems a lot of people like to throw that 37.65% number around, completely ignorant that Crooked Jean ruled for 3 consecutive majority governments (93, 97, 2000) without ever securing more than 41.8% of the popular vote. Sorry, but that argument simply doesn't fly.

I'm not ignorant of that fact and that wasn't even really an argument. I was just saying: that's how our government works.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I'd also like to see an example of where the ruling federal party lost a vote of confidence, and was replaced with a coalition that held less seats.

I don't think there is one. We've only had one coalition govt since Confederation. Kinda exciting, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The fact is that Canadians did not vote for Dion, in fact, his party saw it's worst returns in living memory under his leadership, with a significant loss of seats and popular vote. Making him PM is very, very undemocratic.

I agree, Canadians did not vote Dion in. They voted Harper in with a minority and our democratic system allows for the opposition parties to form a coalition in this case, as I was trying to point out when I threw out the old 38% number. I don't get it: are you saying the entire coalition govt part of our system is undemocratic?

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The only way this one can do that is if it's in bed with the separatists, and it scares me to think what they're going to ask for in return.

I agree, that is scary. I also don't think any concessions will be made that have an effect on separation of Quebec or the Western provinces since the motivation behind this seems to be mainly economic. Maybe I'm being naive.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I agree. Spending major coin in the middle of a recession, when tax revenues are down, is retarded.

Right on brother. You are a fiscal conservative in the traditional sense and that is not a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Shaggy
I agree. Spending major coin in the middle of a recession, when tax revenues are down, is retarded.

got to disagree with this, if you can run surpluses in the good years you can run a defiect during the bad. Reducing taxes, klein bucks etc are not a good thing when the econ is running too hot for its own good. That is just selfish conservative. Smart conservative is to put away money in the good years , pay down debt, so you have the ablity to spend in the bad. Don't listen to the selfish cons who want lower taxes or listen to the NDP who want no surplus but want to spend it right away.

As far as self serving shit, all the parties do it. They all seem to hold the needs of their party over the needs of Canada. That's why I kind of like the idea of co-operating to form a coalition, despite all the problems (I'm not denying there are lots of potentially big problems with a coalition).

I don't affiliate myself with any one party and I'm not saying the current minority is the way to go, nor am I saying a coalition is the way to go. I'm just saying this sure as hell isn't a "coup d'etat" like the thread title suggests, and I don't think it's undemocratic either.

The apparent "reason" for this coalition is that the Conservatives have not acted quickly enough to address Canada's "staggering economy" and the woes of industries like the auto makers.

So now the Liberals, NDP and the separatists are prepared to announce a bailout plan for the Canadian Big 3 auto makers without knowing what the U.S. intends to do, which could pretty much negate any decision we make, and also before the companies themselves have said what they would do different to become financially viable over the long term. The car companies are probably overjoyed at their sudden good fortune.

Harper definitely screwed up by injecting politics into the economic statement, but it has also brought into clear focus the Liberal's party's lifelong belief that it is the default ruling party of Canada and any excuse is reason enough to get back into power, even as the figurehead of a coalition.

If it happens, at least the Dion liberals will finally have someone making confident decisions. Just too bad it will be Smiling Jack and Duceppe who will be calling the shots. Get ready to be bled dry on behalf of special interest groups in Central Canada and Quebec.

"Entirely true, but Conservatives typically get more private donations and as such it makes a bigger dent in the other parties bottom line. This article says that the loss of public funding would result in the Cons losing 37% of their revenue, while the Libs would lose 63%, the bloc would lose 86%, the NDP would lose 57%, and the Greens would lose 65% of their funding."

and do you ever wonder why the CPC gets more money from supporters? could it be that EVERYONE is/was tired of the fucking unions deciding the elections? the 1.95 per vote bought in by Cretin was his way of screwing the public assuming the Lieberals would always get the most votes, oops that backfired after adscam/HRDC/Shawinigan etc

if this "coalition" goes through it will be THE WORST thing to happen to Canada EVER...
and everyone quoting voting percentages, if we had true "representation by population" as per the populations of the ridings being equal this fucking problem would never have arisen....

i am most disappointed in Duceppe as fundamentally the bloc and the CPC have the same ideals in mind, more provincial autonomy and less central government (Ottawa), i hope he is smart enough to scerew those other 2 fuckers when he gets the chance


wow that's a lot of profanity for me....

It's all but a sure thing now. Sad day for Canada.

Originally Posted by Jukes

Well yeah, as soon as a minority govt is elected, the other parties are going to be organizing themselves. IMHO, The only shady thing about the NDP/Bloc tapes is how the cons obtained them.

By being invited? I don't see that as shady. Shady was the Liberal's attempted smear campaign by pulling out tapes from decades past.

Originally Posted by Jukes

I don't think there is one. We've only had one coalition govt since Confederation. Kinda exciting, isn't it?

Federally, we've actually had none since Confederation. The Union Government of 1917 was actually just a shit load of floor crossing by Liberals and conservatives who supported the government's conscription plan into a whole new (temporary) party. They then went and ran in an election under that party banner and platform, unlike the current lot who just want to sneak into power through the back door.

That's why I think this situation is disgusting. If a party has a platform, it should run on that platform, get elected and then implement it as policy. When a nation voted against a party's platform, and it's leader, it doesn't mean "go ahead anyways". As much as I don't want to see another $300 million blown on an election, I would prefer the NDP and Liberals run as a coalition in one than just take power after loosing just a couple months ago. Of course, they know full well they'll get absolutely spanked if they're the ones who trigger an election so soon.

Originally Posted by Jukes

I agree, that is scary. I also don't think any concessions will be made that have an effect on separation of Quebec or the Western provinces since the motivation behind this seems to be mainly economic. Maybe I'm being naive.

I'm a bit more skeptical. The Bloc is pretty fiscally conservative as I understand it, I find it really suspicious that they'd even think of propping up the socialists. They could end up alienating their base if all sorts of spending starts to happen (which it will) and they don't get something out of it.

Originally Posted by DougW

got to disagree with this, if you can run surpluses in the good years you can run a defiect during the bad. Reducing taxes, klein bucks etc are not a good thing when the econ is running too hot for its own good. That is just selfish conservative. Smart conservative is to put away money in the good years , pay down debt, so you have the ablity to spend in the bad. Don't listen to the selfish cons who want lower taxes or listen to the NDP who want no surplus but want to spend it right away.

Wow... Just wow... The federal conservatives wanted to (and did) put money into paying down the debt, which is in effect putting money away because you can't really save if you still owe shit loads of coin. Dion, Layton and crew wanted to spend that money on more stupid shit and special interests.

And giving the working person a break on their absolutely crushing tax load is far from selfish. Holding on to it so the governments numbers would have looked even better would have been.

Originally Posted by waxman

and do you ever wonder why the CPC gets more money from supporters? could it be that EVERYONE is/was tired of the fucking unions deciding the elections? the 1.95 per vote bought in by Cretin was his way of screwing the public assuming the Lieberals would always get the most votes, oops that backfired after adscam/HRDC/Shawinigan etc

Uh, what? My understanding is that the $1.95 per vote was implemented to negate the effects of the Chretien government forbidding union and corporate donations.

Strange but true... Bill C-24 was mostly Chretien's parting shot at Paul Martin for his supposed behind-the-scenes disloyalty in hastening Chretien's retirement as Prime Minister. Since the bill also limited fundraising for leadership campaigns it was intended to penalize Martin since his backers were mostly big business. And with the Liberals riding high at the time Chretien thought the introduction of the taxpayer-funded subsidy would more than make up for any shortfall the party itself would experience. The whole thing was backroom politics dressed up as electoral reform.

Unfortunately things didn't work out as Chretien planned. Martin won the leadership anyway, and Bill C-24 hurt the Liberals financially as they struggled at fundraising from non-union and corporate donors and their vote count dropped in subsequent elections. So now they are basically reliant on that subsidy and literally can't afford to have it end. (BTW, the Liberals did not totally ban corporate/union donations, they just limited them to $1,000. The Conservatives changed that to zero in 2006.)

BTW, good editorial in the G&M today which pretty much sums up the current political situation. Those four clowns in Ottawa should take Stelmach's advice and stop the nonsense.

Originally Posted by Eldo

So now the Liberals, NDP and the separatists are prepared to announce a bailout plan for the Canadian Big 3 auto makers

Actually it appears they don\\\'t even have a proper plan yet (although the article says they plan to help the manufacturing sector, which would likely include the auto manufacturers):

"We have committed not to enter a long-term deficit, but we will act now to introduce a robust, fiscal stimulus policy designed to help Canadians and businesses weather the [financial storm]," said Stephane Dion, the Liberal leader who, on an interim basis, would lead the coalition government and become Canada's 23rd prime minister.

But when pressed for details, Mr. Dion said he could not provide them, only make assurances that the coalition would act "more promptly than [Prime Minister Stephen] Harper in a much more efficient way for the economy, our workers and their families.

So instead of saying "Ok, here's how we're going to do things better" Dion just takes a shot at Harper. Sigh.

Eldo: Interesting perspective on the vote subsidy. I was not old enough to be paying attention to the news when that went through and as such I don't know much of the back-story around it.

Hahahahaha, fisherprice democracy. Great tag.

And yeah, there is no plan. No plan besides getting power. We're in for an interesting couple months to say the least. This coalition is going to bicker and argue with each other and very little will get done, besides pouring federal money into unnecessary bailouts. We will be no better off 6 months, 12 months from now than we are, and hopefully Canadian voters will realize how disgusting this power-grab was and punish all parties involved at the polls. Believe it or not, this may actually turn out to be the reason for a Tory majority next time around.

You guys are sounding like the Knesset....

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Wow... Just wow... The federal conservatives wanted to (and did) put money into paying down the debt, which is in effect putting money away because you can't really save if you still owe shit loads of coin. Dion, Layton and crew wanted to spend that money on more stupid shit and special interests.

And giving the working person a break on their absolutely crushing tax load is far from selfish. Holding on to it so the governments numbers would have looked even better would have been.

I'll comment that I don't think the Cons did a bad job of it just about the same as the Liberals but, I still don't think its prudent to cut consumption taxes in good times when the economy is firing on 8 1/2 cylinders. Taxes have come way down from where they used to be and the surpluses were pretty small relative to the whole economy and where based on high oil which we have seen can change.

the great red north? Awesome