Bob Barr/Ron Paul?

**schindlerpiste** · 09-11-2008, 11:30 AM

Discuss. Why even bother? No one seems to be talking about Libertarians this time around.

**leroy jenkins** · 09-11-2008, 12:27 PM

I was thinking of voting for McCain, but now that Palin is in the picture, I just can't bring myself to do that, and I can't vote for Obama, so I think I'm voting for Ron Paul just because.

I tell myself maybe it sends a message to the two big parties, but who knows, its probably just wasting my vote.

**powpig** · 09-11-2008, 12:36 PM

I have voted Libertarian a couple times & I like Ron Paul but not gonna vote for Bob Barr.

**Jer** · 09-11-2008, 04:05 PM

I'm planning on "throwing my vote away".

I've been really tempted to vote McCain/Palin just to piss off Libdouches, but that's kinda petty.

**doughboyshredder** · 09-11-2008, 11:48 PM

I was going to vote for Barr. It will be hard for me to vote Obama, but I am radically opposed to Palin being in office, and don't want to "throw my vote away".

Picking Palin was genius. I believe it marginalized the third party candidates even more.

**Lizhnik** · 09-12-2008, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by doughboyshredder

I was going to vote for Barr. It will be hard for me to vote Obama, but I am radically opposed to Palin being in office, and don't want to "throw my vote away".

Picking Palin was genius. I believe it marginalized the third party candidates even more.

So, as a diehard atheist and libertarian, your vote will be going to Obama?

**Rasputin** · 09-12-2008, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

Discuss. Why even bother? No one seems to be talking about Libertarians this time around.

Apparently Spats got tired of shouldering the burden.

**Tuckerman** · 09-12-2008, 10:47 AM

I'm writing in Dr. Ron Paul. I'm not sold on Barr yet.

**doughboyshredder** · 09-12-2008, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Lizhnik

So, as a diehard atheist and libertarian, your vote will be going to Obama?

My anti-religious beliefs are stronger than my libertarian views. I know Obama is a liberal but devout christian and that bothers me. Palin, however is a creationist and a dominionist. I believe that her and people like her are attempting to take over this country from within. If they succeed, the religious freedom this country was founded on will be extinguished.

I will be voting for Obama as a counter vote to what the religious far right of the republican party is attempting to do.

I urge others that agree with me about Palin / McCain but can not get over the unpleasantess of voting for Obama to vote for any of the third party candidates.

**Lizhnik** · 09-13-2008, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by doughboyshredder

My anti-religious beliefs are stronger than my libertarian views. I know Obama is a liberal but devout christian and that bothers me. Palin, however is a creationist and a dominionist. I believe that her and people like her are attempting to take over this country from within. If they succeed, the religious freedom this country was founded on will be extinguished.

I will be voting for Obama as a counter vote to what the religious far right of the republican party is attempting to do.

I urge others that agree with me about Palin / McCain but can not get over the unpleasantess of voting for Obama to vote for any of the third party candidates.

I appreciate your thoughts. My politics tend to run along the same lines as yours, and I am in a quandary about the upcoming election. I don't care for any of the candidates, third party included. I was leaning toward supporting Obama until I happened to be States-side during a televised appearance by the candidates at some church, with a pastor as the moderator. The fact that this was a venue for a political event of this magnitude disgusted me. Listening to Obama spew about his religious beliefs for several minutes gave me serious pause for thought.

Now, either Obama was making this shit up (I think this more likely), or he really believes it. Either way, I don't like it. I really wish, just once, a mainstream politician would get up in front of a national audience, and not necessarily denounce religion, but just say that it is not relevant to politics, but is just a personal choice. I'm sorry Obama isn't brave enough to do that.

For a while, I was just going to abstain from the process. But, now that Palin is in the picture, the pendulum has swung back to Obama. Since my vote doesn't count for shit, anyway (would be registered in MA), I was considering taking up DW's proposal and donating $50, and matching any 2 mags' $50 contributions, to the Obama campaign.

So, DW, if you are reading this, here's your chance. If you can convince me that I shouldn't be worried about Obama's religiosity, I'll agree to your proposal. Oh yeah, and are people's pledges verifiable, or is your proposal based only on the honor system?

**Spats** · 09-14-2008, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Apparently Spats got tired of shouldering the burden.

I'm not a Libertarian, and Barr is more of a failed Republican than a Libertarian anyway.

I voted for RP because he was the only candidate who opposed the Iraq war, opposed US militarism abroad, opposed torture, supported our civil liberties and the repeal of the "PATRIOT" Act, and whose fiscal policies would have avoided the total economic collapse of the USA -- which is now guaranteed to occur, and which has already started with the nationalization of FNMA and FHLMC.

Unfortunately, too many people who claimed to support these things chickened out when it came time to actually vote for change.

Smokey McPole · 09-14-2008, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Spats

I'm not a Libertarian, and Barr is more of a failed Republican than a Libertarian anyway.

Yes. Unfortunately, the field for pretty much every party is incredibly weak this time around.

**David Witherspoon** · 09-14-2008, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Lizhnik

If you can convince me that I shouldn't be worried about Obama's religiosity, I'll agree to your proposal.

"Not worried?" As in "at all"? Prolly can't do that. Prolly shouldn't, even if I could.

But this being the real world in these 21st century United States ... a politician who gets up in front of a national audience and says that religion is not relevant to politics, but is just a personal choice - has just shot his chances of becoming a mainstream politician.
Not just because one can't truthfully say that religion is not relevant to politics (as a plain matter of fact in the U.S., it is) - but even just claiming that religion should not be relevant to politics would be enough to torpedo the poor fool.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Obama means what he says when he talks about his religious views. Since you care, if you haven't yet read his views, then read what he said.
It's not flyweight stuff, not mindless regurgitation of whatever came from the pulpit or the focus group. So at least he takes it seriously enough to think about it. That right there may be worth more than the outcome of the thinking. (Fokes, don't miss that eyebrow-raising admission!)

Originally Posted by Barack Obama

In fact, because I do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on morality, I would rather have someone who is grounded in morality and ethics, and who is also secular, affirm their morality and ethics and values without pretending that they're something they're not. They don't need to do that. None of us need to do that.

Not gonna get much better than that in the here and now.

I don't think I have to try to convince you that Obama's religious views are vastly less worrisome than the thoughtless literalism and pandering coming from Palin and McCain.
... but that won't stop me:

Originally Posted by John McCain

I think the number one issue people should make [in the] selection of the President of the United States is, 'Will this person carry on in the Judeo Christian principled tradition that has made this nation the greatest experiment in the history of mankind?'

A double whammy there: untestable but absurd claim combined with off-the-charts religious lunacy. And that was from the reasonable half of the ticket!

Read on, it doesn\\\'t get better.

Originally Posted by Lizhnik

Oh yeah, and are people's pledges verifiable, or is your proposal based only on the honor system?

So far, honor system. Virtual handshake.

But even among aliases

that trust each other, I can see the value of a verification system. Lemmee see what I can set up.

**David Witherspoon** · 09-15-2008, 12:38 AM

Here you go:
Match Verification v. 0.5.
At least this way everyone can see the money is moving.

It's still up to me to report who actually kicked in the cash to match whose offer, 'sup to challengers to meet their obligations, and it's still up to individuals to make their offers in good faith to others.

Any more than that would require real work. Which could be done, if there were enough offers made & accepted at this stage. This push has already pulled in $650 from five different posters at TTips and here for the Obama campaign.

There's now $350 on the table waiting to be matched. Test the page, see if it works!

**doughboyshredder** · 09-15-2008, 09:32 AM

I will do fifty today.

**Lizhnik** · 09-15-2008, 09:36 AM

I put up $50 today. DW, not sure if you saw that.

**David Witherspoon** · 09-15-2008, 09:41 AM

Yep, there's $50 in there now, where there wasn't earlier. Thanks!

But the only info I got thru the site was an email address (and I've replied to that as well).
Did you type a message into the comment field that should've been at the bottom of the donation form? I'm not gonna put up emails or other private ids on the webpge; need a public id/alias for that. (If you want to go with the match & pass offer, that is.)

**Lizhnik** · 09-15-2008, 10:03 AM

^^^ email answered. I'm not really sure to whom I can propose this to keep it going, I live abroad, but any Mag will do...

**doughboyshredder** · 09-15-2008, 10:41 AM

I just put my 50.00 in there.

**doughboyshredder** · 09-15-2008, 10:45 AM

I fuckin can't read. didn't offer a match or anyting in the comments page.

**David Witherspoon** · 09-15-2008, 12:19 PM

Well, I didn't get any message that might or might not have been entered in the comments field, so it don't matter much. [The site says I'm s'posed to get an email with the comments, but I got nothing so far.]

Anyway - the offers, matches and challenges are here on TGR, so state your offer here. At least the Obamasite will verify the amounts, that's all it's for. Thanks to Lizhnik & doughboyshredder for testing the idea & helping me spot the limitations.

One problem (minor, imho, but a problem nonetheless) is that I get the donor's email address and name (so I can thank them - part of the Obamasite's design.) In keeping with standard netiquette, I won't reveal either (and frankly, I'll probably forget both, because I cannot keep track of real names very well, let alone which alias goes with which name) - but it's still a breach of netiquette, I know.

Keep using it, I'll keep working on the concept. I think it has some real potential.

**David Witherspoon** · 09-15-2008, 12:31 PM

Lizhnik - I've just donated $50 to match your $50, as promised. I'll post your two offers now.
And the thermometer now shows $150, meaning it registered my donation to my own page - *whew* - otherwise this was gonna get embarrassing.

doughboyshredder - Lizhnik met my second offer, so give Wendigo a callout - it's his turn to match your offer. Or Lizhnik - we got choices now!

**doughboyshredder** · 09-15-2008, 12:54 PM

Well, I will call Lizhnik out right here, and offer up to 100.00 in matching funds.

**Lizhnik** · 09-15-2008, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by doughboyshredder

Well, I will call Lizhnik out right here, and offer up to 100.00 in matching funds.

Ok, it's done, another $50 in and another $50 left. I would've done it sooner, but it was night time here, and I was sleeping. Thanks DBS, I'm glad it was your contribution I was matching.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for this? Might go some way to generating more interest.

**David Witherspoon** · 09-16-2008, 12:07 AM

Match confirmed, page updated; thanks Lizhnik.

I agree. This is pretty obscure. Post up a new thread!
Meanwhile, I'll see if I can automate & streamline the matching process a bit.

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