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Thread: 240 plug vs 110 washing machine
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09-06-2008, 02:54 PM #1
240 plug vs 110 washing machine
So I have a Asko washer/dryer and the washer is dead. Replacing it with a moffat washer
The wall plug is 240 (220?) and that plug into the dryer, and the old washer plugs into the back of the dryer.
Issue is that the new moffat washer is 110 (120?)V What ever "normal" plug is for north america.
Soooo can I get an adapter to dumb down the voltage, so I can plug in the new washer to the old dryer?
or do I need a new 110 normal plug?
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09-06-2008, 03:01 PM #2
I don't know of an adapter, but any amateur electrician can rewire that plug to be a regular 110v outlet.
Red wire = 110v when you connect it to neutral wire (white)
Black wire = 110v when you connect it to neutral wire
when you connect black to red, you get double the volts, or 220v.
So all you need to do is convert the outlet box to a regular outlet. Pretty easy job, but you should find someone comfortable working with electricity.. . .
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09-06-2008, 03:07 PM #3
I think you're missing that he still needs the 220 for the dryer if I read correctly. So what he needs is another outlet next to it that is 110. Still easy to do I would think and I'm sure he can find someone with the ability who needs some gear.
That machine didn't last very long did it?It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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09-06-2008, 03:15 PM #4
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09-06-2008, 03:19 PM #5
The dryer still plugs into the wall as is, with 220
the issue is the old washer plugged in to the dryer, with 220, and now I need that to change
What I need to know is:
1) how to change the new washer plug to 220 male end, but still have it run on 110
2) the old dryer outlet (female end) to 110, but have it put out only 110 also
3) how to wire a new, 110 box to the side of the old, single 220 box.(this is what coreshot has answered I think)
L7: 8-10 years out of it. we bought them new, when we bought the house...
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09-06-2008, 03:20 PM #6advres Guest
Adapters don't reduce the voltage.
You would need a step down converter, but I would just have an electrician run a new line if it were me. Are there any other close 110 outlets? This is a washing machine and it should run fine on a heavy duty extension cord.
EDIT - Your number 3 solution will be the only one worth wasting time/money doing if you don't do what I suggested. And yes, he was right. There is usually a 110 line on the left of the panel and one on the right with a neutral in between. If you take only one leg of the 110 and the neutral you will have 110. Be careful though. I was hit by 220 before and it was less than fun.
And if you do it, don't put another box there... hardwire your washer pigtail right into the existing box using the correct wires.
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09-06-2008, 03:37 PM #7
I had to read advres's last line of advice a couple of times but get it now. The only thing with that is when you lop off the plug if the thing ever needs warranty work they may frown on that modification. Other than that it is an easy solution. Mounting another box right there should be pretty easy too as coreshot describes.
I guess 8 to 10 years is ok. Maybe the front loads don't last as long. I was thinking they were more the era of renovating the place which I suppose is quite recent really.
edit/ MAYBE you could do the same thing on the back of the washer and change the plug BUT it depends how that is wired and leads attached (not sure). Also it just means you'd have to do it all again when the dryer goes and the new one doesn't have the outlet on the back of any type.Last edited by L7; 09-06-2008 at 03:44 PM.
It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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09-06-2008, 03:52 PM #8advres Guest
That's kinda why I suggest either a new line being run from the breaker or an extension cord. I don't know off the top of my head, any dryers that have outlets in the back, let alone a 110. At some point you are either going to need a new line or need to run an extension cord...
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09-06-2008, 05:39 PM #9
House wiring usually does not have a nuetral/common wire for a dryer circuit.Only 2 line conductors and possibly a ground wire depending on how old it is.If you count 4 wires comning into the 220 outlet box then you are good to go.Otherwise run another line over for the washer or get a heavy duty extension cord to power it from a existing outlet.
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09-06-2008, 06:17 PM #10I touched your avatar
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You cant do that !!! Its not about the voltage of the leg its the amprege that you have to worry about. The leg feeding the 220 is probably like a double 30 breaker. That is way to much amprege for a washer. It needs to be on a 15 to 20 amp with 12 gauge feeding the receptacle. You can probably use 14 if you want to be cheap but using a thicker gauge provide less resistance thus better flow of electric and makes the appliance run to its full potential. You also can't change an appliance from 220 to 110 or vise versa unless you feel like seeing something pretty Shocking Like mentioned run a new run from the panel to the receptacle.
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09-06-2008, 08:31 PM #11
The dryer already split the amperage with the plug in the back that the dryer plugged into. What's the difference? The line must already have enough amperage to handle. Unless of course it had some sort of override circuit that prevented both being run at the same time (which would suck).
It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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09-06-2008, 10:29 PM #12I touched your avatar
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09-06-2008, 10:46 PM #13
No.
It is more amperage than needed (which is never a problem for a device).
The problem you are thinking of is if you put a 30 amp load on a 12 guage wire, the wire can melt and cause a fire since the 30 amp breaker won't trip.
But you can always put a 20 amp load on a 8 gauge wire and 30 amp breaker with no probelms.
In theory if there is a short in the appliance, and you are expecting a 20amp breaker to trip, and it doesn't, resulting in a fire because the internal wires in the appliance are too small.
But, every appliance has small wires inside it, that are suited for the intended amperage draw of the appliance.
Ever plug a 2 watt device into a 20amp 110volt outlet? all the time.
ever wire a low wattage light fixture into a 15 amp circuit and notice that the 14 gauge house wiring was being connected to a 22 gauge thin strand of wire? all the time.
Its O.K.
the original design had a 110v plug on a 220v appliance. How did that work?
Perhaps there was a 20amp breaker in the appliance to protect the 110v plug, but I doubt it.
The more likely concern is that there isn't a neutral and a ground in the 220v box.
Only recently in the US did electric stoves change to 4 wire plugs. That is why I said have someone that knows what to look for take a look at it first.
Bottom line to answer your concern, it is not a fire hazard.
It may not be kosher by the electrical code, but that its not unsafe if done right.. . .
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09-06-2008, 11:12 PM #14
Everyone is right, kinda.
The dryer outlet will have 4 prongs, 1 ground, 2 hot (black and red, probably) and a neutral (white). The outlet will be wired for 30 amps, with 10ga wire.
The voltage between both hot leads is 220v because they're fed from the two separate buses in the panel. However, the voltage between either of the hot leads and the neutral is 110v.
This means that yes, you can hook an outlet up to one of the hot wires and the neutral and have a 110v outlet.
The problem (and it's a huge problem), is that the dryer plug is a 30A plug, and regular 110v outlets are 15 or 20A. The washing machine would run fine, but if there is ever a fault (ie the washing machine's motor seizes up, a wire inside the machine comes loose, etc) then things could catch fire.
The solution is to find a way to throw a 15A fuse or breaker between the dryer outlet and the washing machine outlet. You can buy those push-to-reset button breakers you see in power bars (or just cannibalize said power bar) and mount it in a junction box somehow, or get a fusible disconnect switch and use it. You only need to fuse the hot lead going to the 110v outlet. This still isn't "code", but it'll keep your house from burning down.Last edited by Shaggy; 09-06-2008 at 11:39 PM.
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09-06-2008, 11:26 PM #15
It's O.K. for very short distances, inside steel junction boxes, etc.
Perhaps there was a 20amp breaker in the appliance to protect the 110v plug, but I doubt it.
Bottom line to answer your concern, it is not a fire hazard.
It may not be kosher by the electrical code, but that its not unsafe if done right.
The more likely concern is that there isn't a neutral and a ground in the 220v box.
Only recently in the US did electric stoves change to 4 wire plugs. That is why I said have someone that knows what to look for take a look at it first.
Edit: Actually, if the old dryer had a plug in the back for the washer, there's a neutral.Last edited by Shaggy; 09-06-2008 at 11:36 PM.
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09-06-2008, 11:46 PM #16
I believe the plug was a 220 as was the power the washer ran on. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue at this point. Funky set up to be sure.
For the other problem of too high a breaker on the original line couldn't the 120 plug being installed just be a 'ground fault' plug like in bathrooms with it's own breaker in it. Outdoor plugs here have them too. Or do you guys not have those in the states? Still take the power off a single pole in the 220 outlet and then the ground fault 120 plug. Covers all issues then doesn't it?
Cappy Raham must need new footbeds by now. He's the only guy I did footbeds for with worse pronation than me. Of course if doing it isn't code it's likely he wouldn't do it. He'd likely still tell you how you could do it though.Last edited by L7; 09-06-2008 at 11:48 PM.
It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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09-07-2008, 09:05 AM #17
Shaggy summed it up but lets clear another myth -- a ground fault plug measures current between hot and ground and trips if even a few milli-amps are detected. It is not a circuit breaker. A circuit breaker measures between hot and neutral and trips if too much (15A on a normal household circuit) current is detected.
It would be odd for the original washer to be 240V. Mntlion needs to measure the voltage. If it's 110-120 then make an adaptor cable from the old washer power cord.If you have a problem & think that someone else is going to solve it for you then you have two problems.
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09-07-2008, 09:12 AM #18
Hence the name I guess. I'm sure it is 220 and that's the whole point it is odd....very. Ok so this ground fault won't work for a fix I need somewhere. I was all over that option.
It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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09-07-2008, 09:42 AM #19
Its a problem, but not a huge problem. Clearly not code. Clearly not ideal.
If the washer shorts out, it will blow a 30amp breaker. Any full short will blow any breaker (within reason - at some point the wire is so small it will catch fire, but 12 or 14 gauge wire should have no problem tripping a 30amp breaker). Yes, there will be more current just prior to the breaker trip, but only for a millisecond.
The real concern is the slow-blow, the steady draw of too much current that makes a wire hot,and causes the wire insulation (or anything nearby) to catch fire without actually shorting out the wire.
This can happen with any appliance that goes haywire. Your cell phone charger can melt down and catch fire and never trip your 15 or 20 amp breaker.
Aside from this bizzare request by mntlion, think about the typical 220v appliance with a neutral wire. Do you think all the internal guts, lights and buzzers (other than the heating element, which is the only part that really needs 220v) run on 220v? or are they configured to only use one hot leg, and thus run on 110v? I would say the latter case in most appliances.
The solution is to find a way to throw a 15A fuse or breaker between the dryer outlet and the washing machine outlet. You can buy those push-to-reset button breakers you see in power bars (or just cannibalize said power bar) and mount it in a junction box somehow, or get a fusible disconnect switch and use it. You only need to fuse the hot lead going to the 110v outlet. This still isn't "code", but it'll keep your house from burning down.
All this angels on pinheads may be moot if mntlion has easy access from his breaker to his laundry for a new home run, or if he has a nearby 110v outlet to draw power from. I originally thought he was converting from 220v and could use a 15or 20A breaker over the 10 gauge wire to have only 110v in the laundry room. That is fully code compliant.
Finally, to finish this thread, here is a commercially available adapter device, and yes it contains a built-in 20amp circuit breaker for each 110v outlet
http://refreshyourhome.com/new-steam...CONVERTER.html
I am sure I could find 15amp versions if I looked for them.Last edited by Core Shot; 09-07-2008 at 09:47 AM.
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09-07-2008, 10:33 AM #20
Who said finished? OK so away from Mtnlion who seems to have options needed. With a 220 plug and breaker set up (in Canada at least) is it not usually 2-15amp breakers joined to give the 30A service. So in effect each leg would still be on it's own 15A breaker. I have a 220 outdoor outlet by a manhole to run an irrigation pump. It gets shut down in winter but the potable water goes through the same manhole and needs to function and not freeze. I would like to have a 110 outlet beside the 220 so in winter I could plug in a simple heat source (light, small heater) to ensure the 3" line isn't going to freeze at -40. Hadn't put much thought into it until this but now it seems it's much easier than I thought. I would do a ground fault anyway but it seems to me that single leg of the 220 would still be on a 15A breaker.
Hopefully I can still talk to an electrician up there on Mon. I just don't want the billing with it unless it's really easy and cheap.It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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09-07-2008, 12:29 PM #21
No. For a dryer both breakers in a double-breaker are 30A. A stove outlet is usually on a 40A double breaker.
In Canada there are 15A double-pole breakers in your panel but they're probably for the outlets on your kitchen counter, called a kitchen-split configuration and are designed to give you two 15A circuits at each outlet. They could also be for baseboard heaters.
There are exceptions to this, such as:
I have a 220 outdoor outlet by a manhole to run an irrigation pump. It gets shut down in winter but the potable water goes through the same manhole and needs to function and not freeze. I would like to have a 110 outlet beside the 220 so in winter I could plug in a simple heat source (light, small heater) to ensure the 3" line isn't going to freeze at -40. Hadn't put much thought into it until this but now it seems it's much easier than I thought. I would do a ground fault anyway but it seems to me that single leg of the 220 would still be on a 15A breaker.
Your best options are to buy a small 500w (or less) 220v baseboard heater with a built-in thermostat (they're cheap) or see if your local electrical/plumbing shop has 220v heat tape you can strap to the pipes (also cheap). Throw the same style 220v plug onto either of those, and you're set.
You could also convert the entire circuit into a 110v circuit at the panel, but that would involve opening the panel twice a year.
Have the pipes frozen up before?Last edited by Shaggy; 09-07-2008 at 12:33 PM.
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09-07-2008, 02:49 PM #22
My pool pump and well pump both use a 20A at 240V circuit. My electrical code book states that you can only go to 80% (12A for a 15A circuit) so 20A circuit breakers are common.
Without a neutral wire a GFI plug won't work. Shaggy's idea of using a 240V heater is a good way to go.
If the washer shorts out, it will blow a 30amp breaker. Any full short will blow any breaker (within reason - at some point the wire is so small it will catch fire, but 12 or 14 gauge wire should have no problem tripping a 30amp breaker). Yes, there will be more current just prior to the breaker trip, but only for a millisecond.
In my corner of the world the AC voltage is 120/240.If you have a problem & think that someone else is going to solve it for you then you have two problems.
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09-07-2008, 03:26 PM #23
The 220 baseboard sounds a good way to go.
The pipes haven't frozen before BUT the previous technique was to throw garbage bags full of fiberglass insulation in there. In the spring we had to fish out the whole condensation soaked muddy mess out of there. It was dumb and painful. A heater wouldn't have to run much to keep it above freezing with some insulation. That way there could be functional access to it all winter if something else went wrong requiring a shut off of all the water.It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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09-07-2008, 03:27 PM #24
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09-08-2008, 10:15 AM #25
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