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04-24-2008, 02:21 PM #1
John Nicoletta insulted by Op-Ed Writer
"Russian roulette has odds of 5 in 6. To make this more easily comparable for those of you weak in math, that translates to odds of 10 in 12.
Nine in 10 for hucking yourself off a cliff on skis.
Ten in 12 for spinning the cylinder on a handgun and dropping the hammer on the chamber.
Do those really sound like good odds to you?
Only if you have a death wish. "
04-24-2008, 02:25 PM #2
I think it's pretty widely accepted that Craig is an ass.
Edit: however, his point is still somewhat valid. I guess it all boils down to whatever your own personal level of risk/reward acceptance is.Putting the "core" in corporate, one turn at a time.
Metalmücil. We've been giving people pink ear since 2010
04-24-2008, 02:28 PM #3It's 115 degrees out
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
- Inside the Oven
Well, I like his tenuous grasp on statistics the best.
04-24-2008, 02:31 PM #4
the guy shows his ignorance pretty good in this part:
And yet, there appear to be people who think these are acceptable odds for what have come to be called ''extreme sports.''
These are not sports like auto racing or mountaineering or downhill skiing, where participants or organizers go to considerable lengths to try to ensure safety. Still, they remain inherently dangerous.
But there is a huge difference between mountaineering (they rope up, don't they?) and auto racing on the one hand and X-treme skiing or snowmobiling on the other.
04-24-2008, 02:34 PM #5
Amazing rebuttal nice work dude.Points on their own sitting way up high
04-24-2008, 02:37 PM #6
9 in 10 odds for pushing the envelope of an inherently dangerous sport? I'd say those are perfectly acceptable.........
04-24-2008, 02:37 PM #7
9 times out of 10 was just a metaphor and the author took it too far. However, the author is right. What other sport has the lack of safety standards in competition?Goals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
04-24-2008, 02:39 PM #8
Come on. Comparing hucking to Russian roulette? Get real. You can't train and practice for years to get any better at Russian roulette. Its purely statistical and has nothing to do with skill and preparation.
04-24-2008, 02:40 PM #9
04-24-2008, 02:41 PM #10
Odds like this don't work for people who take calculated risks.
In fact, I would presume freeskiing and other similarly adventurous sporting activities lead to much lesser chance for incidents because those involved do take a more cautious approach.
04-24-2008, 02:47 PM #11who guards the guardians?
- Join Date
- May 2005
Great rebuttal AltoI'm just a simple girl trying to make my way in the universe...
I come up hard, baby but now I'm cool I didn't make it, sugar playin' by the rules
If you know your history, then you would know where you coming from, then you wouldn't have to ask me, who the heck do I think I am.
04-24-2008, 02:48 PM #12youkneebonger Guest
Medred is a tool. He regularly creates incendiary articles that divide rather than unite. He has especially taken to bashing the "extreme ski industry' lately.
this is a link to his most recent articles which created an uproar with Ak readers as well. He was trashed very hard, but nary a response from him or the editor (which i often wonder if they even have??)
here's his pinnacle of douchenozzlery:
Published: April 9th, 2008 11:14 PM
Last Modified: April 9th, 2008 04:17 AM
Someone please explain the disconnect here:
On the one hand, the ski industry is now encouraging all skiers to wear helmets just in case, for safety, because you never know what could happen on the slopes, yadda, yadda, yadda.
On the other hand, the same slopes -- including Alyeska Resort in Girdwood -- are enticing skiers to huck themselves off cliffs with promises of fame and fortune, if they survive.
Ben Johnson almost didn't.
The 34-year-old from Carlo Creek up near Denali Park "went big'' on Saturday. He didn't make the landing.
He almost didn't make it. Period.
He ended up in Providence Hospital with an oxygen tube in his throat. He's still there. He's had four surgeries so far. Doctors have fused shattered vertebrae and tried to rebuild his smashed ankle. His friends are hopeful he might someday be able to ski again.
Alyeska, which put considerable promotional effort into the First World Telemark Freeskiing Competitions, strangely never said a word about what happened to Johnson on Saturday. They didn't say anything on Sunday, either, or Monday.
By then the news that someone had almost died in the resort-hosted event was starting to trickle out.
Johnson's friends seem to think it's cool he cheated death and only ended up in the hospital facing months of rehabilitation.
"Me and my buddies talk, and sometimes we don't know why we do this stuff," Johnson friend Dave Magoffin from Fairbanks told the Daily News. "But we know we have to. When we do this stuff, we feel alive. For us, it's a way to live. And it's gambling, but we have to do it."
I can understand those comments. Lord knows I've done my share of crazy stuff in the Alaska outdoors.
But let's face the facts. Johnson didn't do this simply to feel more alive, which is what we all do out there by ourselves or with our friends.
Johnson, however, wasn't lured into reckless risk by friends. He was lured into reckless risk by corporate America.
He wanted to win the Alyeska-hosted competition, which was promoted in this way:
"And the booty bounty is high for Championship title winners, scoring multiple day heli adventures from Valdez Heli Camps. Additionally, over $30,000 of prizes from G3, Black Diamond, K2 Telemark, Atomic, Rossignol and others will be won in the raffle to benefit The Friends of the Chugach NF Avalanche Center. The Grand Prize is a one-week trip for 12 at Valkyr Adventures Lodge."
Skeptical, nonskiing friends of mine seeking to defend corporate America's role in Johnson's accident have questioned whether anyone would really take life-threatening risks to win what is seemingly so little.
To them, all I can say is this:
There are former state legislators now serving time in federal prisons (or about to serve time) for having sold their souls for very little, though the monetary prizes really weren't the draw for Johnson and the others at Alyeska.
They all wanted the title. They wanted to be seen as the baddest, raddest extreme telemark skier out there.
It's the same sort of thinking that led Reid Sander to his death on Mount Saint Elias in April 2002. The owner of Hellroaring Ski Adventures in West Yellowstone, Mont., wanted to be known for making the longest ski descent in history. It cost him his life.
He was not the first to die trying to "go big'' in the mountains, and he won't be the last. "Going big'' has become an in thing.
Which brings me back to where this all started.
Where is the disconnect between ski resorts that encourage people to be safe while staging competitions in what is politely described as "no fall zones.'' Said terrain being known simply to all skiers as "you fall; you die.''
As Johnson almost did.
Aren't there enough skiers drawn to this kind of behavior without ski resorts encouraging it?
And what example does this set for impressionable young skiers?
So skiers like me are supposed to wear a helmet to set a good example?
Do they real think testosterone-laced, 16-year-olds care about the example set by some old fuddy-duddy?
Those boys and girls (yeah, a lot of girls seem to suffer from testosterone poisoning these days) are a lot more interested in the example set by the people "going big'' and getting attention for it.
So what I would suggest is that Providence Hospital simply sponsor the next "Big Air competition.'' It can do it right off the hospital roof on to a pile of trucked-in snow, and those who don't make the landing can go straight to the ER.
Where they can laugh about how they survived.
Sorry, guys. I've been in the hospital after a few accidents. It ain't all that funny.
Worse, though, you don't make any money off it -- win or lose.
"The man" makes the money. So if the possibility of ending up in the hospital isn't enough to make you think twice, how about the thought of just being a tool for the man.
Medred wasalso bashed pretty hard over on ttips after an article regarding a skiier injured during the World Telemark Contest at Telepalooza
sick balls, maggots!
04-24-2008, 02:52 PM #13youkneebonger Guest
ooops forgot this great opinion editorial regarding the ben johnson incident
Media image of injured skier is wrong
COMPASS: Other points of view
By ALLAN WARREN
Published: April 22nd, 2008 11:15 PM
Last Modified: April 22nd, 2008 02:46 AM
On March 29, while skiing at the Telepalooza extreme skiing competition at Alyeska, Ben Johnson, 34, of Carlo Creek got himself in a tight spot. What he thought was a good line to ski turned out to be full of ice and rocks, and he was left with a difficult decision: ski the rocky line and risk life and limb, or jump off a cliff and hope the landing would be soft.
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He chose the latter, mistaking how high the cliff really was in poor light conditions. He fell for about 80 feet, landed, and then cartwheeled down the mountain another 200 yards, breaking his neck in three places as well as his ankle. Johnson was lucky to survive.
The irony is that Johnson was skiing to raise money to purchase sports equipment for the disabled a charity program I set up called Athletes with a Cause. Despite his good intentions, some people look at what Johnson did as a "stupid decision" brought on by competition, an effort to capture prize money and the corporate influence of Alyeska.
Johnson may be originally from Salt Lake City, but he has spent enough time hauling water and chopping wood during the harsh winters in the Interior of Alaska to know that blaming someone else for your actions won't help you get out of a tight spot.
"I should have known better than to take that air in the flat light conditions," Johnson said from his hospital bed.
We Alaskans pride ourselves on our personal freedom, and while practicing it, many of us make bad decisions all the time. While growing up here, I also learned that we pride ourselves on taking responsibility for those decisions. Finger pointing and placing blame might go over in the courtrooms of California, but it has no place up here in Alaska. Like any true Alaskan, Johnson takes full responsibility for his decision and the accident that followed.
However, this isn't just an issue of who is responsible; it's also an issue of motivation.
I'll be the first to admit that the extreme nature of outdoor sports competitions has been escalating over the years and that some of the athletes involved are motivated by prize money, sponsorships and glory. However, I work with a great number of world-class competing athletes and the motivation for every last one of them is first and foremost the love of competition. They love to push the limit of their abilities and have an insatiable passion for their sport. They are not "tools of the man."
Johnson approached the charity drive with just as much energy as he did his training, and before his accident he had already raised about $1,000 to buy a sit-ski for a sports program. Johnson relished the opportunity to use his passion to do some good and to share the joy of skiing with someone less fortunate than himself.
When we speak of the dangers of corporatism, what we're really talking about is the danger of the "me-first" mentality that is rampant throughout the corporate world as well as our communities today. This attitude is as present in our everyday social interactions as it is in our corporate boardrooms, our sporting competitions and even our newsrooms.
Johnson isn't an example of that danger. In fact, Johnson is an example of how one individual can make a positive difference for his or her community. Following Johnson's accident, support for him and his cause has poured in from all over Alaska and all over the country.
Ben Johnson started his efforts this winter as an individual trying to make a positive difference. He ended his ski season by bringing together a community trying to do the same.
Allan Warren is a graduate student in journalism at the University of Nevada, Reno. His Web site, with information about Ben Johnson's recovery and Athletes with a Cause, is LifeMoreNatural.com.
04-24-2008, 02:52 PM #14....................
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- May 2005
Great response Alto.
04-24-2008, 02:55 PM #15?
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- Jul 2005
- Verdi NV
I don't know how to respond to the level of risk. I think the Competitors might have a 1 in 10 chance of falling when they ski a line at the speeds they are skiing them.
The odds of being hurt or even woorse being killed are obviously much less likley.
This editorial and others I have read seem to say that all the competitors are risking a likley bad outcome every time they compete. Thst is just wrong.
I am really getting tired of reading these articles where Johns tragity is described as JUMPING OFF A CLIFF ON TO ROCKS
I saw what happened through the magnified view of a camera, I WILL NEVER FORGET. What I saw was that John missed (His 3rd turn) at just the wrong place. It was the perfect storm of bad luck.
It was a freakish accident that he lost control at the precise place that he did. That set off a very unfortunate and unlucky set of events that caused him to hit two sets of rocks perfectly wrong.
Well thats it for me, its been two weeks and I still think about John and what I saw every day.
04-24-2008, 03:05 PM #16
dumbshit desk jockeys can't quite figure out that we ski because we like it, we jump off cliffs because it's freakin' fun, we ski tough lines because it's challenging and exhilarating. winning a comp, impressing your friends/your girlfriend/the public, getting sponsored-- surely these are motives for some people, at times.
but just plain stupid to ignore that the only reason anybody ever got good enough to be on a stage like a freeskiing comp in the first place is because they're motivated by a passion for their sport and the feeling in their soul every time they click in to their bindings.
edit: here's a list of people who have died in the "safe" auto racing:
Last edited by Lone Star; 04-24-2008 at 03:30 PM.
04-24-2008, 03:08 PM #17worm turn
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- Dec 2004
It's obviously a little ranty, but the writer's basic thesis was a reaction to the "9 times out 10" quote from one of Ben Johnson's friends, not an indictment of Nicoletta. As he says: "Let's not quibble over the accuracy of this 9-in-10 claim, but accept for the moment that it is true." It's a strawman arguement.
This op-ed writer is not the one to do it, but after two deaths in big contests in the last couple of years, it's a fair topic for discussion. I think it is important to recognize that really good skiers can, and do, put themselves in situations that are beyond their ability to 'calculate' the risks. And it's fair to say that cameras, contests, etc. probably don't make it any easier.
04-24-2008, 03:16 PM #18
meh.. I see people who question us for taking risks as people who ultimately have a problem accepting some key realities of life and the human condition.
Last edited by YetiMan; 04-24-2008 at 03:43 PM.
04-24-2008, 03:26 PM #19
my simple response is just because you fall doesnt mean your going to die. If we talk about the IFSA what are the stats? 1 death on 1000s if not 10000s of runs? sure the odds kinda of still suck but noone is thinking that they are going to die once every 10 runs.
04-24-2008, 03:27 PM #20
..Oh yeah, re: the 2nd article of his posted here: Most deaths at ski areas occur to massive trauma to the body where a helmet would be completely ineffective. I could be wrong on the 'most' part, but I seem to remember seeing that somewhere, and I don't doubt it for a moment.
Last edited by ODHGABFE; 04-24-2008 at 03:44 PM.I think the potato gun proved the stability.
04-24-2008, 03:28 PM #21
I think his statistics are perfectly reasonable. He simple states that two people die for every twelve runs taken. So one simply has to look at how many runs were done, and compare it to the number of deaths. I am sure this is exactly what he did.
Oh, wait! One person died, and there were a couple hundred runs over the comp. by the men and women, so it doesn't add up. Maybe he meant over the last couple years...nope two deaths, and many thousands of runs. I guess this asshole doesn't know what he is talking about. Who would have thought that.
...and someone should tell this fuck wad, that a lot of mountaineering is done with out ropes.
I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...iscariot
04-24-2008, 03:29 PM #22
Hey Medred: GO FUCK YOURSELFIts not that I suck at spelling, its that I just don't care
Days on snow 12/13 season: 67
04-24-2008, 03:38 PM #23
Guy sounds like a hugh pussy!
04-24-2008, 03:38 PM #24
if he wants to quote jack london......
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
- Edward Abbey
04-24-2008, 03:39 PM #25
Safety standards? WTF?
More people skiing at everyday levels in resorts die.
More people drown every year.
More people die doing drugs.
More people die having sex.
More people die driving cars.
People die. What are the odds on that? 100%
PEOPLE NEED SAFETY STANDARDS FOR THEIR RECREATIONAL PURSUITS!!!!!
PROTECT PEOPLE FROM DYING! IT'S NOT NATURAL AND WOULD NEVER HAPPEN OTHERWISE.
I was looking right at John when he died and can only hope I'll be so lucky as to go out in the same or similar fashion.
YKB - Thanks for those two editorials. Shows a big difference between the attitudes of writers who understand and care and a sensationalistic fear-mongering whore with a keyboard. Again, Medred! You are a pussy fukkin loser JONG bitch.
Last edited by splat; 04-25-2008 at 05:35 PM.
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