Scarpa F3 impressions?

[GeezerSteve]

Anybody been skiing & touring on F3's? I pondering getting a pair for longer tours (e.g., Spearhead, Wapta), spring tours (e.g., Birthday Tour, Fortune loop) and lower angle midwinter tours. I'll be on Karhu Jak BC (90mm waist, soft tail) and Dynafits (of course). Currently skiing on Spirit 3's with all my skis (Mantras, Shamans, JakBC). Spirit 3's are great for skiing, but I'd like a to add a real touring boot to the quiver for more comfy touring/walking/scrambling. I've been tellying for 17 years before switching to AT gear last spring, so I'm accustomed to using some effort to turn. Garmonts & Dynafits don't fit my foot.

Lest you flame me -- yes, I checked out Lee Lau's generally negative comments re the F3 at http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=106848 and the raves re the F3 from Lou Dawson and Andrew McLean at http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1042

Thanks

[harpo-the-skier]

I have F1s (which are supposed to be similar to the F3 in flex) and they are fine in perfect snow. When you get thrown foward and back at all, such as in anthing other than perfect powder or corn, the boot is to soft and I ski like a gumby. The F1s only felt marginally better than making parallel turns on my circa 1998 T2's. I am keeping my F1's, but mostly for meadow skipping. I won't take them anytime I expect to be challenged.

Lou and Andrew have been skiing for ages so I am guessing they have both the finesse style and experience with soft boots (from back when all AT boots were soft) to pull off the F3.

BTW, I have a Trab/Comfort/F3 (F1) Shim set up for sale on Gear Swap that would go great with you new F3 and shave about two pounds off your Jak set up.

[GeezerSteve]

I have F1s (which are supposed to be similar to the F3 in flex) and they are fine in perfect snow. When you get thrown foward and back at all, such as in anthing other than perfect powder or corn, the boot is to soft and I ski like a gumby. The F1s only felt marginally better than making parallel turns on my circa 1998 T2's. I am keeping my F1's, but mostly for meadow skipping. I won't take them anytime I expect to be challenged.

Lou and Andrew have been skiing for ages so I am guessing they have both the finesse style and experience with soft boots (from back when all AT boots were soft) to pull off the F3.

BTW, I have a Trab/Comfort/F3 (F1) Shim set up for sale on Gear Swap that would go great with you new F3 and shave about two pounds off your Jak set up.

The word is that the F3 skis much better than the F1 -- compare Lou's F1 and F3 reviews, and the comments on Lou's blogs by Andrew and others.

Anyway, it's too late -- I skipped out of the office this afternoon and bought the F3's at Marmot for a good deal.

I saw your Trab/Comforts on GS and TAY. It's a screaming deal -- I'm surprised someone has not swooped them -- but I'm not in the market for them. I fear that a 178 Free Rando is not enough for my 240 lbs. of bulk, and my Jak BC's work great. I wear a 30MP boot, so it would likely require moving both binding fixtures too. I passed your deal on to a buddy, but he didn't bite. Good luck selling them -- it's a great superlight spring BC skiing setup for a very good price.

[laseranimal]

I thought the F1 skied ok but kept breaking the heel latch

Scarpa was less then helpful in getting it fixed, I'd check out the F3 if they solved that problem.

You definitely need to find the right ski for it though, shorter is better

[Jonathan S.]

I thought the F1 skied ok but kept breaking the heel latch

Scarpa was less then helpful in getting it fixed, I'd check out the F3 if they solved that problem.

Although the F1 rear latch's mechanical complexity and exposure can lead to durability problems, in fairness to its design:
-- you bought a (very well-)used pair; and,
-- the latest version is significantly redesigned.
Also, the F3 just uses a classic flip-style walk/ski switch, like on the old Scarpa Laser . . . actually, come to think of it, doesn't the F3 look a lot like the Laser but with the F1 sole & bellows? (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

[laseranimal]

Although the F1 rear latch's mechanical complexity and exposure can lead to durability problems, in fairness to its design:
-- you bought a (very well-)used pair; and,
-- the latest version is significantly redesigned.
Also, the F3 just uses a classic flip-style walk/ski switch, like on the old Scarpa Laser . . . actually, come to think of it, doesn't the F3 look a lot like the Laser but with the F1 sole & bellows? (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

yeah the pair I had was used but I managed to break 2 more replacements that I got, In fairness the F1 really isn't designed for Clydesdale's like me.

I'd really like to check out the F3 cause I really did like how the F1 walked and climbed. It really was a nice early/late season boot

I actually think the F1 looks a lot more like the old 3 buckle T2s I have

[Tony]

My 2 cents.

A boot quiver of F3's and Spirit 3's has too much overlap.

If you have Scarpa feet, Spirit 3 and Matrix is ideal and pretty much what's used for long/multi-day endeavors where you want to cut weight and still have a descent ride down.

If I were you (240 lbs.), for my second AT boot I wouldn't look for a lighter boot.

I would go the opposite way and be looking at a more robust, stiffer boot for single-day touring and sidecountry like Adrenaline, Aero Freeride, Tornado or wait for next season for the Skookum, Factor, ZZeus and overlap offerings of Garmont.

[GeezerSteve]

My 2 cents.

A boot quiver of F3's and Spirit 3's has too much overlap.

If you have Scarpa feet, Spirit 3 and Matrix is ideal and pretty much what's used for long/multi-day endeavors where you want to cut weight and still have a descent ride down.

If I were you (240 lbs.), for my second AT boot I wouldn't look for a lighter boot.

I would go the opposite way and be looking at a more robust, stiffer boot for single-day touring and sidecountry like Adrenaline, Aero Freeride, Tornado or wait for next season for the Skookum, Factor, ZZeus and overlap offerings of Garmont.

Tony, you and I have very different views about alpine touring gear. I wonder if the touring performance vs. stiff-boot bias generally cuts across generational and hemispheric (Lou notes that the F3 is now Scarpa's biggest selling boot in Europe) lines, with some obvious exceptions (Andrew McLean states that he uses F3's for 90% of his skiing, and he's a relative youngster). If you guys want to schlep Tornados on a tour, that's cool for you but not for me -- I have no desire or need for a boot that is heavier, stiffer and more cumbersome than the Spirit 3. Indeed, the Spirit 3 is more boot than I need most of the time. I have the option of using the black tongues for lift skiing, but they are not necessary.

Re your "overlap" comments, note that Lou, Andrew and others describe the Matrix as somewhere between the Spirit 3 and the F3. See Andrew's comments at http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1042 and Lou's comparo at http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=466 . Andrew, who claims to have skied all 4 boots, describes the range (flexible to stiff) as: F1 --> F3 --> Matrix --> Spirit 3. Plus, the bellows -- easier walking, touring and scrambling -- is the primary feature of the F3 that I desire, and the Matrix and other boots you mention do not have the bellows.

I laid down the cash for the F3's yesterday. I'll post my comments after skiing them in a variety of conditions and terrain.

[Tony]

FWIW, this is my view on AT boots. I have Scarpa feet too. I am not Lou Dawson or Andrew McLean. I own the F1, Matrix and Tornado (soon to be replaced by Skookum). Those three boots have three very different uses (read: no fuckin overlap):

- Ski mountaineering/climbing/approach (F1)
- Multi-day hut2hut touring (Matrix w/ tongue & Powerstrap mods)
- Sidecountry/single-day touring (Tornado)

I think you are splitting hairs between the F3 and Spirit 3, as it won't be much perfomance difference on the uphill (even scrambling, the bellows is only a slight improvement on my F1's over my Matrix) and the bellows would certainly make for less supportive boot on the downhill.

Most non-rando racing folks around here are looking for AT boots that ski better, as their AT boots are already lighter than their alpines. If you are going the other way, go all the way! Return the F3s and buy the F1s. Then the weight delta and scrambing performance would be considerable vis-a-vis the Spirit 3s.

I am based in Europe now and the Scarpa AT boots you see the most around in the Alps are (still) the Denali XT, the Matrix and the Spirit 3. Not the F3s.

Now, if you are trying to justify an impulse purchase (as from the OP till your purchase only 5-6 Hours ocurred), fair enough: it's your money.

[harpo-the-skier]

Tony, you and I have very different views about alpine touring gear. I wonder if the touring performance vs. stiff-boot bias generally cuts across generational and hemispheric (Lou notes that the F3 is now Scarpa's biggest selling boot in Europe) lines, with some obvious exceptions (Andrew McLean states that he uses F3's for 90% of his skiing, and he's a relative youngster). If you guys want to schlep Tornados on a tour, that's cool for you but not for me -- I have no desire or need for a boot that is heavier, stiffer and more cumbersome than the Spirit 3. Indeed, the Spirit 3 is more boot than I need most of the time. I have the option of using the black tongues for lift skiing, but they are not necessary.

Re your "overlap" comments, note that Lou, Andrew and others describe the Matrix as somewhere between the Spirit 3 and the F3. See Andrew's comments at http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=1042 and Lou's comparo at http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=466 . Andrew, who claims to have skied all 4 boots, describes the range (flexible to stiff) as: F1 --> F3 --> Matrix --> Spirit 3. Plus, the bellows -- easier walking, touring and scrambling -- is the primary feature of the F3 that I desire, and the Matrix and other boots you mention do not have the bellows.

I laid down the cash for the F3's yesterday. I'll post my comments after skiing them in a variety of conditions and terrain.

I thought I remember Lou or Andrew saying that the F1s and F3s ski the same. The main difference was the greater dependability of the hardware and that the F3 was less adept at touring because of the friction of the walk/ski mech and the stiffness of the high tongue.

I look forward to your comments, big steve.

[Tony]

Lou Dawson is fun to read and informative, but Lou continuosly admits that he prefers soft 160-170cm. skis as he decidedly favors the uphill.

Get your own conclusions but this philosophy is not popular among the TGR crowd.

For future reference about how to avoid AT boot overlap: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=78437

[GeezerSteve]

I thought I remember Lou or Andrew saying that the F1s and F3s ski the same. The main difference was the greater dependability of the hardware and that the F3 was less adept at touring because of the friction of the walk/ski mech and the stiffness of the high tongue.

I look forward to your comments, big steve.

I discerned that Lou, Andrew and most of the other contributors noted somewhat better skiing peformance with the F3 and better striding with the F1. (e.g., Lou states that the F1 is "slightly less beefy" than the F3 and that the F3 "skis fine," in contrast to his tepid review of the F1's skiing characteristics in his review of last year). Yes, all agree that the F3 is designed for more reliability, i.e., racer vs. tourer. Andrew noted on Lou's blog:

The F1’s aren’t the ideal boot for laying arcs on an icy World Cup race course or Davenporting through breakable crust at high speed, but I think they work well for traditional (for lack of a better word) backcountry skiing. As their name implies, they are are like an F1 race car - super fast and light, but perhaps not 100% reliable at all times. If you want that, get the F3.

Also, we all should acknowledge that boot performance is a very personal thing and subject to numerous confounding factors, including the characteristics of the ski, ski style, strength, build, touring/DH ratio and, perhaps most important of all, expectations. On that final point, my experience in the BC had been exclusively on relatively light (usually old T2's) telly gear for 16 years until last season, so I have formed a bias towards light/flexible gear, with the expectation that it'll take a bit more work and finesse to get down. And that's cool for me cuz, after all, it's touring.

I hope to get the F3's out in the BC this weekend, perhaps both days and, if the forecast holds, it might be a fair test cuz I may well be pushing around wet heavy snow with them.

Will advise.

[Tony]

Also, we all should acknowledge that boot performance is a very personal thing and subject to numerous confounding factors, including the characteristics of the ski, ski style, strength, build, touring/DH ratio and, perhaps most important of all, expectations.

It's precisely because of your build why I would go to a stiffer boot. Anyway, give us your thoughts after you've tried.

[harpo-the-skier]

Another thing to note, my Zzero 4 C TF weighs only a half pound more than my F1, albiet without the belows or the softer flex for touring.

[GeezerSteve]

It's precisely because of your build why I would go to a stiffer boot. Anyway, give us your thoughts after you've tried.

That's a valid observation, but I recall seeing a TGR post in which someone made a good argument that it's the small guys (i.e., shorter levers, less mass) who need bigger boots, and the larger mass and longer levers of a big guy require less boot. I don't necessarily buy into that analysis, but it's interesting. Anyway, to some extent the proof is in the pudding on this matter -- I have no use for anything stiffer than my Spirit 3's, which, as I previously observed, is usually more boot than I need.

We do agree on one thing: I won't know untill I try them. Snow levels are creeping down in the local NOAA forecast, so let's hope I'm skiing pow this weekend.

[Tony]

I don't agree with that theory either.

I tend to believe that skis, bindings and boots can't know your mass or your height. They only can feel your weight and whatever torque/flex force you exert on them with it.

[GeezerSteve]

My first impressions of the Scarpa F3 AT boot, based on an outing on Saturday afternoon:

Setup: Karhu Jak BC 186, Dynafit Comforts, custom HDPE shim to Scarpa spec for Comforts (custom cuz Marmot did not have shims for the Comforts), Booster straps.

Conditions: spring glop, quite wet, some death cookies, not sunny enough to have corned up, some icy spots. Pretty brief test -- I lift skied 6000+ feet, aiming for every sort of snow condition and terrain I could find, and then skinned up c. 1000 feet to test the F3's in touring mode.

Impressions: They tour and hike great, far better than any AT or telly boot I've tried, sort like a leather boot logging road hippy-stick setup. The bellows bend perfectly matches my foot. They ski fine, a bit better than I had anticipated, but only after making a few turns to figure them out. Scarpa designs the shims so that when the boot is unloaded in Dynafit downhill mode, the boot sole does not quite touch the shim, i.e., there's a slight gap (2 mm or so) between the boot sole and the shim (Scarpa spec), until the boot front cuff is loaded (i.e., initiating a turn) at which time the boot flexes and the sole compresses on the shim. This requires a split second of patience to permit the shim boot sole to collapse on the shim. The compression on the ball of foot is noticable, but not such a bad thing, i.e., lots of "feel," and not unlike a light nordic boot feel. The skis got kicked around by the death cookies, but that was due in some part to the wimpiness of the Jak BC's. As a long-time pinhead, I equated the skiing experience to a T2 with a heel binding fixture (although tours more like a T3). Skiing the F3's was quite fun, required old-school gear technique and finesse (steer those knees) but prolly adequate for 80% of BC skiing I encounter. I may experiement with a slightly taller shim, one that kisses the boot sole when unloaded.

Reality test: Yesterday, I lift skied on my Spirit 3's w/black (stiff) tongues on my 184 Mantras (w/ FR+, deshimmed/shimmed to match ramp angle of Dynaft Comforts) in the same variety of snow conditions. The Spirit 3/black tongues certainly skied more powerfully, did not require the finesse of the F3's and was a manifestly faster/more powerful setup. The Mantras (vs. Jack BC) confounded the comparo. But I confirmed that I was not skiing on hero snow on Saturday.

Analysis after reality test: I really enjoyed the F3's and I look forward to trying them in a wider range of conditions. When and where I'll use the F3's vs. the Spirit 3's (w/ orange hinged tongue in BC) is a matter to be determined, but, based on my initial impressions, I anticipate that I'll primarily use the F3 for spring BC touring, midwinter drier BC pow and long tours. So far, so good.

[LeeLau]

Good quiver type boot then. Thanks for the review Steve

[Jonathan S.]

Thanks for the review, very helpful. (I do think though that, all else being equal, heavier skiers need stiffer boots, and that skiers with longer lower leg shafts will find a very short boot like the Garmont MegaLite/Dynamite/GLite to be inadequate. Plus the only convincing argument I've ever seen regarding height for ski selection was in the context of xc skate race skis, and even then it was an exceedingly minor factor.)

So anyway, my F3 boots are on their way -- will post impressions once they arrive. (Kind of an impulse buy: wife was away for the night, I was staying up late working, saw an eBay auction about to end with no bidders, and, well . . . )

Meanwhile, impressions of new Scarpa sliding shim. Previous experience was with homemade shims that were very minimalistic.

pro:

- no drilling, so can test out different rigs, either for demo, or to see if your F1 or F3 is up to job for certain elements of your quiver

- can swap out to use ski crampons

- shim is contoured, not flat, so it supports the entire forefoot so well that no bellows flex is apparent while skiing (whereas it was apparent with my prior homemade shim, and for the OP)

- feels a bit funny on the flats with no heel elevator, since the boot's forefoot is suspended so much with the heel compressing somewhat (drilling-required miniature heel posts are included for this purpose, but I didn't mount them), though of course can just remove them for any extended flats

con:

- heavy (2.4 oz per shim for TLT, 2.8 for Comfort/Vertical)

- TLT shim can't be used on Comfort/Vertical (unless it was modified to add a cut-out to accommodate the toe base plate extension, whether on the current model or the older Comfort)

(FYI, impressions based on 2 skin laps of 1000 vert, followed by 2 descents of the same, and then maybe 6 or so lift laps once the bullwheel started turning. Ascent route was mainly lower intermediate with one short pitch that would be considered upper intermediate out west but lower expert at most eastern ski areas. Descent route was mainly lower intermediate with one short pitch that would be expert at pretty much any eastern ski areas, but some western ski areas might rate it upper intermediate. Conditions were early-morning groomed and very firm/fast, i.e., ice to westerners. Gear = Atomic MX20, TLT, friend's old F1 with power straps and tongues removed plus some other minor mods, i.e., scroll to Feb 12. Mainly SL turns with modern race technique, though some GS too.)

[GeezerSteve]

Jonathan, I look forward to reading your impressions. I tend to agree with your observation re skiers with larger mass and longer levers, although I think that a smooth and balanced skiing style may trump those factors.

I hacked off the crampon fixture on my Comforts (I use Voile crampons), so won't be able to try the Scarpa sliding shim. The contoured surface makes lots o' sense -- maybe I can machine a fixed shim with a contour. Re your cantilevered touring thing in flat mode, I note that my F3's came with heel shims to avoid that, to be used with TLT Classic/Speeds, tho not necessary with my Comforts (which have the ledge).

Enjoy your new F3's.

[Jonathan S.]

yeah the pair I had was used but I managed to break 2 more replacements that I got

yipes, didn't realize that -- definitely not good!
which reminds me, what did you do with those boots after you removed the dynafit fittings? the buckle, rear lever, and upper cuff hardware could be useful for other F1 mods

[Jonathan S.]

F3 just arrived. (And my very own -- well, anyone is welcome to stop by to use it -- Scarpa boot oven will arrive next week, wuhoo!)
Quick impressions from indoor fitting:

- Weight for 27.0 is 6 lb 5.6 oz (totally stock, no footbeds at all).

- Stiffness very (very) close to second generation Scarpa Matrix. (1st = Euro only, different three-position walk/soft/ski switch that was universally despised; 2nd = first season in U.S.; 3rd = slightly different colors, slightly stiffer via tweaks to lower shell, slightly heavier too; 4th = current, with Intuition liners) With Flexon tongue in Matrix, the differential would have been much bigger of course. And I think the large heel lifts I had in the Matrix (but not the F3) also effectively softened up the Matrix (via putting my ankle joint in a better position to flex forward).

- Stiffness way (way) more than old F1 (modified via some grinding, but not yet to compromise stiffness) and similarly way more then Dynafit TLT Evo (modified to reduce forward lean, which also stiffens up the boot a bit), which are fairly comparable in their stiffness.

- Large range of fore/aft motion in walk mode, but more resistance than the F1 or TLT Evo via all the different layers sliding against each other and possibly the internal walk/ski switch (as opposed to the external clasps/levers on the F1 & TLT Evo).

- BSL for 27.0 is 307mm, as compared to 301mm for the other three boots. But sockets are recessed, so even my TLT setups work w/o redrilling (close call). On the other hand, this leaves a pretty big lip in front of the sockets, which is totally pointless, since the F3 won't work in Diaxos (unless some crazy shim were installed). So I plan to grind off much of the lip, making it more like the Dynafit-only TLT toe.

Overall, although it's not quite as light or walkable as the very lightest boots on the market, it's very close, but I think for my weight (5'8") it should be all I need in the backcountry for a ski like the Trab FreeRando. Only problem is can't take out just one pair of boots on western trips that include lift-served skiing on heavier Diaxo setups. Solution to that is probably to sell the Matrix and buy a bigger boot (or pack the F3 and Dobies, but that's a pain).

[GeezerSteve]

Bumping to add my impressions of the F3's after eleven full days (5 lift access slackcountry + 6 touring days) on the boots. 8 days on 180 King Salmons; 2 days on 177 Icelantic Shamans; 1 day (plus a ½ dial-in day) on 186 Karhu Jak BC’s. (Yeah, yeah, I like to ski short skis in the BC). All skis equipped with Dynafit Comforts. My other boot is a Sprit 3 (stiff tongues for lift skiing, hinged tongue for touring). I'm big: 6'2", 240 lbs.

The F3's are superior to any AT or plastic telly boot that I’ve used for skinning flats, low to medium angle climbing, hiking, skating and scrambling. I have not cramponed with the F3's but I am certain that they will work better than any AT/telly boot for all but frontpointing. I machined my own HDPE shim which is slightly taller than and 2X the area of the factory shim. The slightly taller shim helps limit the bellows deflection when downhilling. I also JB Welded a shim (approx. 4mm thick) on the Comfort heel fixture, at the lobe which the heel contacts when in the flattest touring mode.

The F3's ski downhill much better than I had ever imagined on everything but hard pack. The flex (bellows and soft cuff) does result in a slight delay in the initiation of a turn, but it’s no big deal in softer snow so long as I ski sorta old school, i.e., deliberate turn initiation and steer the knees. The KS/F3 combo is very maneuverable and quick turning at low to moderate speed. The KS/F3 combo certainly has a speed limit, but that’s cool for me in the backcountry. The F3/Shaman combo has worked great in mid-winter powder, although I may use my Spirit 3's on days when I can expect the really wet Cascade pow.

I have seldom used the Stiletto climbing post position with the F3's. The slight bellow flex in Dynafit climbing mode results in the heel being somewhat higher than the ball of foot (BF) compared to a stiff AT boot. Thus, the middle Dynafit climbing position works for a wider range of slope angles. If there is any energy loss due to a sagging bellows when in climbing mode, such loss is marginal (similar to a telly boot, which does the same thing), and is more than setoff by the comfort and more efficient stride. The flexibility of the F3 also seems to correspond to fewer blisters.

The F3 fits very differently than the Spirit 3. The F3 is lower volume and an overal snugger fit, somewhat similar to a T2.

Although I bought the F3 as a quiver boot, I will use it for all touring/ski mountaineering except maybe on deep wet Cascade powder trips and/or when I expect substantial frontpointing (seldom these days), and even on the occasional lift-serviced dry powder day.

[verbier61]

FWIW, I've been using F1 and F3 this winter. F3 ski WAY better. What I've not understood yet is whether the bellow is of any help in steep skinning (It certainly works well in low and medium angle skinning). Got some blisters in the inner heel area in the first two days (quite surprising, never got blisters before with intuition liners, almost always with palau-garmont liners), but after a home-made thermo treatment had no more blister issues

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I'm considering buying some F3's as a second pair of AT boots, specifically a cheap pair of 27.0's that I won't be able to return if I buy them.

I've skied 27.5 Spirit 3's. They were a bit too long and had too much volume. I now ski 27.5 Zzeus's. I can't get enough toe room in the Zzeus's with the stock liners, but they were on the spacious with intuitions before I added foot boards.

Any thoughts on whether I'll fit into the 27.0 F3's (27.0 and 27.5 and different shells for Scarpa)? Can F3's be punched? Can anyone give me some more specific info about the way in which the F3 last is smaller than the Spirit last? Toebox? Instep?

Big Steve?

Thanks