repeatedly changing ski bindings on a ski

[i killed judas.]

EDIT: Google summed this up for me.





im a complete tech JONG aside from waxing and doing edgework on skis, so excuse my ignorance.

and for the record i tried searching but could only find info about the negative effects of drilling excess holes in skis

if i were to have a pair of skis drilled for 2 different bindings, would it be detrimental to the ski to, on occassion, switch 2 different bindings back and forth depending on what im going to be skiing (touring, bombing, hucking, etc) in order to have the most appropriate binding for the situation?

probably a really dumb question but i have never mounted a binding before, let alone know the first thing that mounting requires. i prefer to just go up the mountain by any means possible and rip as hard as i can on the way down. all of the other shit is just jargon to me.

[davep]

Sooner or later you're gonna strip your holes (like after less than 10 or so times). The screws just go into wood and fiberglass, it's not intended for repeated use.

As for why there isn't a standardized insert like for snowboard bindings... that's a big can of worms.

[i killed judas.]

apparently theres an insert patented where you drill for the binding, stick the metal insert in (which threads to the ski) and then thread your binding screw into the insert (connecting binding>insert>ski) but there are no products for sale like this. this way the wood threads are never being compromised therefore the binding should never rip out after x amount of swaps. and it takes a lot of stupidity to strip metal threads.

but google says someone has it patented. GHEY.

[iscariot]

Basically sounds like a helicoil.

Still not good to swap binders often. Just buy more skis.

[i killed judas.]

for anyone who gives a shit about this thread and has any mechanical savviness whatsoever, theres an archived thread here: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...?t-100847.html

in there 'couloirman' suggests:
"Pardon my jongness also. Does this mean screwing in a hollow sleeve that is threaded on the outside AND inside so screwing in and unscrewing the binder out would just go through the metal sleeve which stays in the ski and not affect the wood? This sounds like a decent idea, but then again I dont know any better so let me know if this is stupid."

this is the same concept that i found patented on google, but cant find for sale anywhere.

anyone know of any possible makeshift devices that would work?

[DJSapp]

judas, go google helicoil insert. That is what you're looking for.

[i killed judas.]

judas, go google helicoil insert. That is what you're looking for.

yeah i looked at helicoils but its still not what im thinking of. helicoils arent safe to be repeatedly threading/unthreading either, from what ive read.

'ski binding insert' is what the damn thing should be called.

[davep]

If you're really desperate you could try making a thin aluminum plate (like the one in that thread you linked) with multiple sets of holes in it, and screw bindings on to it with standard metal screws rather than ski screws.

[i killed judas.]

FWIW, i was thinking something along the lines of this.

[jon turner]

This thread will help you out. "threaded insert" is what you are looking for, not helicoil. This thread has some really good info.

http://backcountryworld.com/showthre...hreaded+insert

[adrenalated]

yeah i looked at helicoils but its still not what im thinking of. helicoils arent safe to be repeatedly threading/unthreading either, from what ive read.

'ski binding insert' is what the damn thing should be called.

This exists in the tele world. Look at K2's tele skis, they do it.
It hasn't taken off because there are too many disadvantages. The big one is it greatly limits where you can mount the binding, and different skiers have different preferences. The other, especially for alpine skiers, is that different bindings have different hole patterns. Trying to get all the binding manufacturers to agree to use the same hole pattern would be... difficult, to say the least.

What does make a lot more sense is doing what the Bomber Bishop tele binding does. The binding has a plate that screws into the ski, and then the binding itself screws into the plate. You can then buy kits with just the plates, mount them on all your skis, and swap the bindings between skis. Furthermore, the binding has three different mount positions on the plate, so you can play with your mounting point without needing to re-drill the ski. The only disadvantage is potentially larger rise height, due to the height of the plate. I imagine the reason most binding manufacturers haven't done this is they want to sell you more full bindings instead of cheaper plates.

[C_Free]

Sounds like you have your answer Judas. I was thinking of this myself awhile back. Now whether that piece will actually stay in the ski with the loads you apply to it (by skiing, landing, etc.) is an untested matter. Also, there may be an issue with keeping water from entering the ski via the insert (if you have an insert that is hollow at both ends). Hell it may be worth it to buy an old pair of crappy skis at a Salvation Army or something and give it a whirl. I know I would be interested in the outcome.

[i killed judas.]

for those of you that are interested, there is an entire tutorial on how to do what i expressed interest in right here. a guy did it and claims it works perfectly. looks so clean too.

http://backcountryworld.com/showthre...hreaded+insert

[Atlas Q. Powmonger]

wasn't line going to do this a few years ago? permanent inserts so you could swap out bindings repeatedly?

[i killed judas.]

wasn't line going to do this a few years ago? permanent inserts so you could swap out bindings repeatedly?

yes, but something happened that the line bindings never came out or something or other. also, if you tried using the line bindings on a non-line ski, supposedly it would spontaneously combust and rip out of the ski leaving the current mount holes deemed unusable. seriously.

given that k2 owns line (i believe?), and a LOT of other popular ski companies, and marker, you'd think itd be nothing but beneficial to use a system like this (from a consumer perspective).

[Magnus_CA]

I thought I read somewhere in the tech forum that there's a ski (from Blizzard maybe?) with a plate on it that facilitates swapping bindings. I'll go hunting later.

[ill-advised strategy]

I've done a lot of binding swapping on plates, old deflex/derbyflex plates and vist plates and salomon slalom-type plates...IMHO you can get away with it with those, especially the deflex...whereas the ski core itself is so vulnerable to moisture damage and/or repeated cuts from self-threading screws. Of course, any plate is going to be heavy.

[C_Free]

I believe the line bindings will come out of the pre-drilled inserts in older Line skis. I have seen it happen, you just unscrew them and are done with it.

-- 200 posts, huh

[jondrums]

Bumping this thread to get things going again. I've been thinking a little about this. the link to backcountry world in post 10 is excellent, and covers most of this. Key points:

*threaded insert gets threaded and epoxied into the ski
*internal threads are M6 (metric flatheads have same angle as ski screws, M6 is available in #3 posidrive head type)
*need to worry about water entering holes

part number 95631A125 from mcmastercarr is close, but would need to be cut/filed/sanded down so it isn't so deep in the ski.

I don't think just heli-coils are suitable for this - ski screws aren't meant to be reused all the time (they are wood threads, not machine screws).

The ideal threaded insert would be no more than 9mm deep, and closed off on the bottom for water tightness. It would have coarse threads on the outside, and M6 threads on the inside (same as snowboards I think). The insert would ideally end up sitting flush with the topsheet of the ski. It would be very useful have a tap that matches the coarse outer threads so that the ski could be carefully tapped before epoxying the insert in place.

So, should we get some perfect inserts made?

[splat]

Don't just drip superglue in there like that guy did. The stuff gets too brittle. I'd douse it with a long set epoxy for two good reasons - you want it to last and to do so it has to be waterproof. You want the epoxy to settle up to the top and wipe off the excess for an absolute seal.

Oh, yeah....measure twice. heh.

[i killed judas.]

Bumping this thread to get things going again. I've been thinking a little about this. the link to backcountry world in post 10 is excellent, and covers most of this. Key points:

*threaded insert gets threaded and epoxied into the ski
*internal threads are M6 (metric flatheads have same angle as ski screws, M6 is available in #3 posidrive head type)
*need to worry about water entering holes

part number 95631A125 from mcmastercarr is close, but would need to be cut/filed/sanded down so it isn't so deep in the ski.

I don't think just heli-coils are suitable for this - ski screws aren't meant to be reused all the time (they are wood threads, not machine screws).

The ideal threaded insert would be no more than 9mm deep, and closed off on the bottom for water tightness. It would have coarse threads on the outside, and M6 threads on the inside (same as snowboards I think). The insert would ideally end up sitting flush with the topsheet of the ski. It would be very useful have a tap that matches the coarse outer threads so that the ski could be carefully tapped before epoxying the insert in place.

So, should we get some perfect inserts made?

If you knew where to get them made, I would buy a decent amount (300-400 or so?). I am wondering if any shop would be willing to insert inserts...I don't have the resources to do them in my shitty university apartment.

[tsproul]

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...MT4NO=54462302

They're even stainless steel. And less than 1/2 inch tall. 5/16 inch bolt is hefty and you have find them in a flat head. I don't know if the head size is compatible to the countersink in a ski binding. Other inserts are available from MSC and other vendors. I'd stick with stainless steel or other noncorroding material though.

If you epoxy these in, get nylon screws to use as a 'dummy' screw until the epoxy sets. Add epoxy to hole (cover bottom to make it waterproof). Thread in insert. Thread in nylon screw. Wait for epoxy to set. Remove nylon screw after epoxy sets and you'll have nice clean threads to install the binding into. Use non-permanent loctite on binding screw so they don't work loose over time.

This would also seem to be an inexpensive way to swap Duke bindings between skis.

[i killed judas.]

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...MT4NO=54462302

They're even stainless steel. And less than 1/2 inch tall. 5/16 inch bolt is hefty and you have find them in a flat head. I don't know if the head size is compatible to the countersink in a ski binding. Other inserts are available from MSC and other vendors. I'd stick with stainless steel or other noncorroding material though.

If you epoxy these in, get nylon screws to use as a 'dummy' screw until the epoxy sets. Add epoxy to hole (cover bottom to make it waterproof). Thread in insert. Thread in nylon screw. Wait for epoxy to set. Remove nylon screw after epoxy sets and you'll have nice clean threads to install the binding into. Use non-permanent loctite on binding screw so they don't work loose over time.

This would also seem to be an inexpensive way to swap Duke bindings between skis.

Those are SUPER expensive. It would cost $53 for just enough to mount one ski/binding.

[jondrums]

They're even stainless steel. And less than 1/2 inch tall. 5/16 inch bolt is hefty and you have find them in a flat head.

Its 12mm long, you're only supposed to drill most skis 9mm AFAIK.

I don't know if the head size is compatible to the countersink in a ski binding.

english flatheads are 82degree angle, while metrics are 90deg. Ski bindings require 90deg flatheads. Also, those threaded inserts take 5/16" bolt, which is about 50% larger diameter than a ski screw. so, no its not compatible.
Jon

[toast2266]

What about using some sort of T-nut? Obviously it would require drilling all the way through the ski, which would necessitate doing some base repairs, but it seems like it could solve a bunch of the problem with waterproofing, and it would be super strong. I haven't done any extensive searching, but T-nuts seem common enough that it shouldn't be hard to find a compatible size, and they're cheap.