Thread: NSR - I am sorry to say...

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
.... But know this, these were not petty thieves or looters. They were people that shot at and killed coalition forces, were caught with weapons caches, making bombs, with bomb ingredients...

Umm, no they weren't. As a matter of fact, most (if not all) of the prisoners pictured have been released and, according to Mr. Rumsfeld, will be compensated for their hardship.

This was a fishing expedition that went horribly wrong - they were looking for info on the insurgents. Does Rummy need to go? No. I honestly don't think he gave the OK for this. I would love to know what the "Sub-contractor Interrogators" had to do with this, and where they fit into the chain of command. Mr. McCain wanted to know on Friday, and I think it's the crux of the problem today. The Generals on TV testified that the chain of command broke down somewhere between Washington & Iraq. I'd like to know where... and more importantly, WHY.

Holy crap...one of the photos has a caption "Beaten to Death!" And one guy supposedly had electrodes attached to his genitals? Unreal.

Sprite

Tipps,

This guy was actually there:

I am now officially sick-and-tired of the self-serving and largely uninformed hand-wringing about the goings on at Abu Ghraib prison outside of Baghdad. As someone who has actually been on the grounds of Abu Ghraib prison, let me explain a few things.

First of all, there is no excuse for what a few soldiers did; but there is also no reason to make this into the moral equivalent of the Black Plague.

It should be pointed out that the prisoners at Abu Ghraib are not Boy Scouts rounded up for jaywalking. These are bad guys who either blew up or shot a coalition member; or were caught assembling an explosive device; or were caught in a place where the makings of explosive devices were found; or were caught with a cache of weapons. See the pattern here?

http://mullings.com/

that is the link to his weblog.

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Tipps,

This guy was actually there:

I am now officially sick-and-tired of the self-serving and largely uninformed hand-wringing about the goings on at Abu Ghraib prison outside of Baghdad. As someone who has actually been on the grounds of Abu Ghraib prison, let me explain a few things.

First of all, there is no excuse for what a few soldiers did; but there is also no reason to make this into the moral equivalent of the Black Plague.

It should be pointed out that the prisoners at Abu Ghraib are not Boy Scouts rounded up for jaywalking. These are bad guys who either blew up or shot a coalition member; or were caught assembling an explosive device; or were caught in a place where the makings of explosive devices were found; or were caught with a cache of weapons. See the pattern here?

http://mullings.com/

that is the link to his weblog.

Driving the bathysphere to new depths of depravity and facist philosophy.
I'm proud to be an American and this behavior is disgusting.

you should act like it, or more accurately post like it.

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
you should act like it, or more accurately post like it.

I do. You don't.

mr_gyptian- had a great time skiing with ya on sunday.

does it matter what those iraqis did to our soldiers? they're enemy combatants. I'd always taken pride in our country as being the "good guys" who treated prisoners of war with humanity and decency. I've read about some of the German prisoners who were in the Fraser valley during WW II and felt proud that they were treated so well that many came back after the war with nothing but good will toward their captors here in the states.

many Americans may expect that sort of behavior and rationale of the Iraqis-- "those Americans shot at me, tried to blow up my family....."-- but I always thought that our country was great because we rise above that sort of petty "HE STARTED IT!..No, SHE started it!!" nonsense and treat all of our captives like human beings.

really? That's funny because I already stated my extreme distaste for what went on in the Abu Ghraib prison. However, I was trying to put it into context. Again, calling this an atrocity cheapens true atrocities.

remember nuance Buster??

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
really? That's funny because I already stated my extreme distaste for what went on in the Abu Ghraib prison. However, I was trying to put it into context. Again, calling this an atrocity cheapens true atrocities.

remember nuance Buster??

I find no nuance in any attempt to justify this shit. If I'm misreading the intent, I'll go back to my Evelyn Woods speed eating class.

Originally posted by Lone Star
mr_gyptian- had a great time skiing with ya on sunday.

does it matter what those iraqis did to our soldiers? they're enemy combatants. I'd always taken pride in our country as being the "good guys" who treated prisoners of war with humanity and decency. I've read about some of the German prisoners who were in the Fraser valley during WW II and felt proud that they were treated so well that many came back after the war with nothing but good will toward their captors here in the states.

many Americans may expect that sort of behavior and rationale of the Iraqis-- "those Americans shot at me, tried to blow up my family....."-- but I always thought that our country was great because we rise above that sort of petty "HE STARTED IT!..No, SHE started it!!" nonsense and treat all of our captives like human beings.

Bravo dood. This is the voice of a real American. Thanks!

Let's just agree on 'less of an atrocity than the holocaust but more of an atrocity than Spats' trousers'.

What happened to Spats' trousers?

Originally posted by bad_roo
Let's just agree on 'less of an atrocity than the holocaust but more of an atrocity than Spats' trousers'.

HEH, LS and BH I wasn't justifying a goddamned thing they did. read the whole thread. Jetter asserted this was as bad as My Lai. I responded.

The justification offered in Mr-Egyptian's post is insufficient. Whether you agree with it or not, the US bills itself as "morally superior" (to quote the White House), not because we are infalliable, but because we rely upon a system of democratic laws and procedures to ensure people's rights. One of these rights is due process, and is extended not only to US citizens, but to enemy POWs as well. Obviously the circumstances of war dictate that the due process extened to POWs is not the same as that extended to US citizens.

No matter how vile you think these Iraqi soldiers are/were, they are entitled to due process. This is my opinion, which differs from US policy since the Patriot Act was passed. This un-American act gives our government the right to ignore the US Constitution, due process, and apparently the Geneva Convention, if you are deemed an enemy combatant. The irony of the title of the Act is almost painful.

Most importantly, regardless of what you think the Iraqi soldiers may have done, they are entitled to be treated with humanity and dignity. This is not because they necessarily deserve such treatment, and not because we are beholden to the Geneva Convention, but but because the US is a "civilized" nation. It is this fact that distinguishes our government from those of dictators such as Sadaam. Or at least it used to...

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
HEH, LS and BH I wasn't justifying a goddamned thing they did. read the whole thread. Jetter asserted this was as bad as My Lai. I responded.

Oh, I see. My apologies. It's just that any reasonable person would have read that quote as justifying the fascist conduct. Clearly, I'm at fault.

Originally posted by gincognito
I don't know of any psychologist or psychoanalyst who, given the details of what went on, would be surprised by these actions.

Back in the '70s and earlier, before they were deemed unethical, many a famous experiment was conducted in order to understand how "ordinary" people respond to positions of power over others. Specifically, experiments where the subjects were randomly assigned positions of prison guards and prisoners exemplified just how base our human instincts are. Left to their own devices, the "prison guards" soon partook in humiliating the "prisoners" by way of making them strip to nakedness and simulate various degrading behaviours. The experiment, meant to last two weeks, was cancelled after just one.

Likewise experiments involving "teachers" giving electrical shocks to "students" demonstrated how much people are willing to dish out when under orders from an authority figure.

Sure, point the finger at the perpetrators, think to yourself how wrong they are, but don't forget to look at the bigger picture and blame the ones who put them there in the first place. From what I can gather, that place was a breeding ground for this type of behaviour. Without proper guidelines, without moral supervision, it is a lot easier than one might think to lose touch with reality and not grasp the severity of what you are doing.

Sick and ashamed and happy (and will probably always be that way),
d.

The social psychological research to which you refer (Zimbardo, Asch, Milgram, etc) is exactly why the abuse should never have occurred. Those studies are not excuses for such behavior, but rather information that our government has (or should have) armed itself with to avoid such abuses. Prison administrators and social researchers have been aware of the social dynamics surounding authority, conformity, and group pressure since the 50's. In any such situation where authority can be abused (especially when talking about the most advanced military in the history of humanity) systems should be in place to avoid such abuse.

I agree with you, these social factors exist and must be considered and the fact that they were not illustrates the systemi nature of the abuse. The US soldiers who participated are victims of their own government's ineptitude (at best) or it's deliberate manipulations to extract information from these prisoners at any cost (at worst).

VOTE TWOPLANKER/ARMCHAIR 2009

Originally posted by Twoplanker
The US soldiers who participated are victims of their own government's ineptitude (at best) or it's deliberate manipulations to extract information from these prisoners at any cost (at worst).

I see your point.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that the soldiers involved are victims in any way, and I know of the experiments you speak of (Asch, Milgram, Zimbardo, etc.) and their outcomes.

Even if they had been trained to properly handle and "soften" prisoners for interrogation ... would that still have stopped them?

The fact that there's photographic record of the hollow depths of their depravity leads me to think -- "fuck no."

Originally posted by bad_roo
VOTE TWOPLANKER/ARMCHAIR 2009

I applied for the job, but they were turned off on my idea of using Air Force One to access the goods.

Originally posted by Twoplanker
The justification offered in Mr-Egyptian's post is insufficient. Whether you agree with it or not, the US bills itself as "morally superior" (to quote the White House), not because we are infalliable, but because we rely upon a system of democratic laws and procedures to ensure people's rights. One of these rights is due process, and is extended not only to US citizens, but to enemy POWs as well. Obviously the circumstances of war dictate that the due process extened to POWs is not the same as that extended to US citizens.

No matter how vile you think these Iraqi soldiers are/were, they are entitled to due process. This is my opinion, which differs from US policy since the Patriot Act was passed. This un-American act gives our government the right to ignore the US Constitution, due process, and apparently the Geneva Convention, if you are deemed an enemy combatant. The irony of the title of the Act is almost painful.

Most importantly, regardless of what you think the Iraqi soldiers may have done, they are entitled to be treated with humanity and dignity. This is not because they necessarily deserve such treatment, and not because we are beholden to the Geneva Convention, but but because the US is a "civilized" nation. It is this fact that distinguishes our government from those of dictators such as Sadaam. Or at least it used to...

Excellent points 2P. What the Iraqis are in the prison for is irrelevant. A murderer/rapist in the US is accorded the same due process as a suspected car thief even if the crimes differ greatly in scope. All Iraqi prisoners should be accorded their basic rights and torture should be kept to a minimum, even in interrogations of major suspected terrorists, not only for humanitarian reasons, but b/c information given "under duress" is often faulty. There was a great article on the moral boundaries posed by the interrogation process in a December or January issue of the Atlantic. Even for true scumbags like Khalid Sheik Muhammad we need to be careful what lines we cross lest we descend to their level. It's our system that's designed to prevent atrocities like this from happening, we don't depend on the natural goodness of our people to safeguard our morals. The Bush administration has consistently shown disdain for our system of checks and balances and their leadership contributes to the attitudes and sloppy command that make incidents like Abu Ghrab possible

Originally posted by 13
I see your point.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that the soldiers involved are victims in any way, and I know of the experiments you speak of (Asch, Milgram, Zimbardo, etc.) and their outcomes.

Even if they had been trained to properly handle and "soften" prisoners for interrogation ... would that still have stopped them?

The fact that there's photographic record of the hollow depths of their depravity leads me to think -- "fuck no."

I'm guessing, purely guessing, that it was acknowledged by the administration and military that obtaining information from the prisoners was the highest priority. The military administration then set up a scenario, both by direct order and by omission (e.g., lack of training and supervision) whereby the prisoners would be humiliated during interrogation. The social factors illustrated in the social psych research explain why so many US soldiers would willingly participate in acts that they would otherwise view as repugnant. Conformity and authority are powerful inflluences that make people do things they would not o under different circumstances. I think our government used this knowledge to create the situation.

More damning though, is the evidence that our government directly orchestrated the abuse. The specific uses of humiliation used (e.g., homosexuality, domination by women, etc.) suggest to me that someone who understands the psychology of these prisoners was involved. This is not the work of your typical MP. Someone told these soldiers what to do. Conformity and authority did the rest.

By the way, if anyone is interested in Milgram's research on authority, you should check out the link below. It is a Flash program that I created that simulates the equipment used in Milgram's research - The Shock Generator Type ZLB.

The simulation accurately represents the actual equipment used as well as the script (what was said by the Teacher, Learner, and the Experimenter.

It still amazes me that 65% of the "normal" people that participated in the reseach were willing to administer (ostensibly) deadly shocks to complete strangers, simply because an authority figure (an experimenter in a lab coat) told them to do so.

I created this Flash simulation for a University Psychology course that I teach:

http://www.usu.edu/psycho101/lecture...generator.html

Now go shock the hell outta someone!

Would that this would be a farce... I'm sure they weren't expecting the Spanish Inquisition...

[JARRING CHORD]

http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/tt2.jpg
[The door flies open and Cardinal Ximinez of Spain [Palin] enters, flanked by two junior cardinals. Cardinal Biggles [Jones] has goggles pushed over his forehead. Cardinal Fang [Gilliam] is just Cardinal Fang]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[The Inquisition exits]

Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]


[The cardinals burst in]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
[To Cardinal Biggles] I can't say it - you'll have to say it.
Biggles: What?
Ximinez: You'll have to say the bit about 'Our chief weapons are ...'
Biggles: [rather horrified]: I couldn't do that...

[Ximinez bundles the cardinals outside again]

Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

[The cardinals enter]

Biggles: Er.... Nobody...um....
Ximinez: Expects...
Biggles: Expects... Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...
Ximinez: Inquisition.
Biggles: I know, I know! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. In fact, those who do expect -
Ximinez: Our chief weapons are...
Biggles: Our chief weapons are...um...er...
Ximinez: Surprise...
Biggles: Surprise and --
Ximinez: Okay, stop. Stop. Stop there - stop there. Stop. Phew! Ah! ... our chief weapons are surprise...blah blah blah. Cardinal, read the charges.
Fang: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against the Holy Church. 'My old man said follow the--'
Biggles: That's enough.
[To Cleveland] Now, how do you plead?
Clevelnd: We're innocent.
Ximinez: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[DIABOLICAL LAUGHTER]

Biggles: We'll soon change your mind about that!

[DIABOLICAL ACTING]

Ximinez: Fear, surprise, and a most ruthless-- [controls himself with a supreme effort] Ooooh! Now, Cardinal -- the rack!

[Biggles produces a plastic-coated dish-drying rack. Ximinez looks at it and clenches his teeth in an effort not to lose control. He hums heavily to cover his anger]

Originally posted by Bullet
Oh, NO! Now the Muslim world won't like us.




30 or so years ago a professor did a social experiment. Students were divided into guards and inmates. It was supposed to run some course of time. Shortly after initiating the experiment, the "guards" became so sadistic that the prof had to the terminate the experiment early. Power granted without boundries will lead to abuse of said power.

30 or so minutes ago, we were just discussing this same thing in this thread.

Here's some pictures from the experiment. Look's strikingly similar to what we're seeing from Iraq, no?

http://www.prisonexp.org/images/spic17.jpg

http://www.prisonexp.org/images/spic18.jpg

http://www.prisonexp.org/images/spic6.gif

http://www.prisonexp.org/images/spic33.jpg

Go here for more:

http://www.prisonexp.org/

http://www.whitrichardson.com/images...eadows-big.jpg

http://www.whitrichardson.com/images...y2--valdez.jpg