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  1. #1
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    186 Praxis Review

    Here is Comish's 3.5 runs on a Praxis review. On run 3.5 I promptly did a weird slo-mo over the handlebars twisting fall that resulted in a dislocated knee, torn ligament, and cartalige. yeah!?!? If anyone has any experience with this, please check into Gimp Central https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=111122 and let me know as so far I seem to be rather unique on this one.

    Me: 5'9", 160 lbs.
    Conditions: 1- 2 feet of fresh at Mammoth
    Mounted: 98 from tip w/ Freeride +'s w/o front toe shim.

    Regular ski is last year's LP. Like the Axiom and Pow + (tip too stiff/no tip rocker), but don't love either. Looking for that deep pow tool.

    Now a Mammoth weekend warrior skiing 30-50 days per year, likes fast, long radius turns in long steep open terrain. Not a mini-golf skier. Enjoy being in a forward position and driving the tips of a ski. Typically ski Mammoth w/ trips to other areas.

    Intellectually I didn't think I would like the Praxis. Seemed a little too one-trick-pony for me.

    1st run just down a groomer to the Gondi and yeah, it seemed like you either had to two foot skid or stay back on them or else you were gonna do the splits. Not a disaster, but definitely didn't fall into the fun catagory.

    Next run was 1st tracks down the Paranoids, which are nice, fairly long (1200 vertish) natural half pipes that fill in with pow. Now that was super fun. Loved them on the steeps. Could make any turn shape, no trace of hookyness etc. Super fun.

    Now the negatives start: Get down toward the bottom, still untracked, but a bit flatter. I'm getting tip diveage. I have to keep my weight back or else my tips are gonna submarine. Not fun. Torching legs/feet for 500 feet as I have to ski in the backseat to keep the tips up sucks and isn't why I have skis that are 130+mm wide on. Would much prefer Axioms or Pow Pluses here. I tried a variety of positions, two footed, forward presuring tongues, more centered two footed position, and they both resulted in tip diveage of both tips.

    Next run down Paranoids had a few tracks, but super fun. Launching and playing on the side of the natural halfpipe was super fun. Could start to see the versatility of the surfy feel. Could also drop in via rocks on the steepest entrances with more confidence that you would make that next critical turn because of the shape. You weren't afraid of hooking a tail due to the sidecut. Definitely impressed on the steeps, powder natural half pipes.

    Next run out to Dragon's Back for more untracked. Don't feel super confident on the narrow woopdeedoo traverses but make it out. Again, in the lower angle pow my tips are going down = not fun. Kinda bummed about that as I there are some trees out there which is where I expected the Praxis to shine, but because of my tip issues I couldn't ski them charging or even centered.

    Next run only make it 100 yards on the traverse where again I felt like I had to keep my weight a bit back to keep from doing the splits and to keep the tips up. Then kablam, no more knee.

    My summary: They could be awesome. I would have remounted first with the Freeride toe shim and if that didn't help, back another cm to see if this would help the tip diveage. That aspect was a deal breaker for me as mounted. Not fun, terrible for your form, etc.

    Groomer performance, certainly not fun, but tolerable. I still think a regular sidecut ski with some camber is going to be 95% of the fun in the pow but sooo much better everywhere else that it is just way more versatile.

    If I was heli-skiing and the tip diveage issue went away I can definitely see the merits. In the US where most in-bounds areas are tracked by noon, not sure I see the benefit. Skiing pow is FKNA awesome with any ski, and skiing everything else is so much more fun with a little sidecut that I don't think they are for me. Take it with a shaker of salt since it was a whole 3.5 runs.

    I'm gonna miss the Sister Teresa graphics or the "Naked Lady" skis as Mrs. Comish lovingly referred to them.
    Last edited by comish; 02-05-2008 at 04:58 PM.
    He who has the most fun wins!

  2. #2
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    sounds like you need to try the 195s

  3. #3
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    Some of the same thoughts here.

    6ī 180-185, 185īs mounted at 97cm from tip with dukes. Mounted them at the forward end of the scale as I wanted to maximize the turnyness and smearing factor of these things, didnīt ever consider tip diving could be an issue.

    I have had the same issues in low angle trees as comish mentions. The tip stays under and I have to lean back to make them surface. I have changed the heel shims on my kryptons to ease my trouble, but so far I havenīt skied them after this. I had issues keeping my speed up compared to others I was skiing with too, but Iīll but that down to my poor waxing skills, will have them serviced professionally before the next time I take them out. With slightly better glide, I believe they will float and smear and kill the low angle stuff too.

    In anything but low angle though, I feel they rule! Traversing, skating and getting down groomers is a lot easier than I feared. Not fun, but no problem either. I will not be skiing my LPīs on soft snow days.

    As for edges, I havenīt done anything to the factory tune due to being lazy and lacking the right tools. Thinking of either 1/1 and detune or 2/1 and detune. Anyone with an opinion on this???

    I havenīt yet done any skinning, so canīt review the dukes in this respect. I can report that the 185cm long 130mm G3 skins seem to fit perfectly without any trimming though. You donīt even have to tighten the elastic on the tail, just slide it out, pop it onto the tail, and youīre good to go.



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  4. #4
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    ^Are you peeking at the camera in this one, you 'ho?

  5. #5
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    Yikes! +++++ vibes on that knee.


    What's the recommended mounting distance from the tip? Isn't that quite forward?
    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=111659
    Last edited by Jim S; 02-05-2008 at 02:35 PM.
    Every man dies. Not every man lives.
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  6. #6
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    Seems odd that there is a dip diving issue with the 185's cuz I'm 6'1" 210# on the 195's and unless I pressure the tips they float or punch through everything. I actually find them a blast in low angle pow because they keep me on top of the snow allowing me o actually ski it vs having to point it.

    Major bummer about the knee. Heal fast.
    If I haven't pissed you off yet don't worry. I'll keep trying.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim S View Post
    Yikes! +++++ vibes on that knee.


    What's the recommended mounting distance from the tip? Isn't that quite forward?
    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=111659
    98 is right in the middle of the suggested range of 97-99 for the 185's. I figured given I was using Freerides which I and others have tended to mount +1 in the past, this would equal 99 for an alpine mount and put me towards the back of the range.

    Per the conversation in the other thread https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=111659, I can see how these things would rule techy steep pow lines. I definitely felt really confident there, just the tip diveage sucked. We are talking about 45 degree tips heading for the bottom, Comish flying over the handlebars unless he is backseatdriving kinda diveage for those curious.

    I do actually think my knee injury was significantly influenced by being on these skis. Do I think its the reverse/reverse fault or that they are more inclined to have knee injuries, not necesarily.

    Fo me, I was taking the traverse rather mellowly / slowly rather than going full bore charging in a forward position. I probably had my weight slightly back due to my tip diveage issues and the feeling that you need to be back a bit to track straight and not do the splits. The low speed, weight back combined to put me in an awkward position and contributed to me going over the bars with stiff, nearly straight legs and my knee cap dislocating was the result. Having done that traverse a million times at 30mph if feeling confident and in an attacking forward position I would have blown by the snowboarder. So, not the skis fault, but I wouldn't have done it on my "normal" skis if that makes any sense.

    Its still mostly down to the pilot, but sometimes tools make you feel uncomfortable or contribute to poor piloting...
    Last edited by comish; 02-05-2008 at 05:00 PM.
    He who has the most fun wins!

  8. #8
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    I don't get why everyone seems to think that tips are either "on top" or "diving." It seems to me with the right tip shape, flex, you can ski in powder with the tips fully buried, but not experience any of the "diving" sensation.

    My experience on Praxis was that they mostly fulfilled this, but the forward mount (97 from tip on the 185s) meant occasional "diving" in slightly denser snow.

  9. #9
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    i ski 185's w/ 1st gen freerides w/ no shim and the only time i have had any tipdiving was after a 4' dump when no ski was fat enough. only problem i've had on them is on traverse tracks where i somehow end up leaning too far back till i almost fall. but thats negligable. they skin/climb fine and ski great. sorry bout the knee.

  10. #10
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    I haven't had any tip diving issues on my 185s. I got stuck once, but that was just your typical "picked a slope that got too flat for how deep the snow was" issue that I can't blame on the skis. And I don't feel off-center on them - no falls forward or backward.

    Maybe it's the mounting? I would think they'd get weird really fast if they aren't centered right.

    After a couple runs, I felt better traversing on the Praxis than on normal skis. I think part of that is the reverse camber keeps the tips up and ready for the next trough, so I don't get slammed as much. They wear on the sides of my calves on traverses though, just with the edge being so far out from underfoot, but that's about it.
    "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow, what a Ride!"

  11. #11
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    I'm about your size, 5'9" 150 and I haven't noticed tip dive on mine, which are also mounted at 98 from tip.

    I'll think about it next time that I'm on them to see if I notice anything, but I know it wouldn't be anything catastrophic.

    Maybe you just have better form than me and I'm naturally a bit back in low angle pow?

  12. #12
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    If your tips do not float up in the powder your bindings may be mounted too far forward to core center – especially if you ski with proper technique (over your feet) and not in the back seat. The 186 Praxis is a fatty ski too. Those things should float like a boat I actually saw my first pair of praxis last Saturday at Crystal a top the cambel basin bowl.

    The more forward bindings are mounted to core center though, the more weight there is closer to the tip of the ski, and hence a better chance for the tip to drop under the pow line if your balance is forward.

    Moving the bindings back towards mid sole shifts your weight towards the back tail of the ski and hence the ski tips will float on the pow line. I mount my dukes mid sole and my 179 Seth's float in deep pow (I’d bet) just as good as any ski on the market. I'm 5'9" 173lbs and don’t have to sit in the back seat to achieve this effect either. I don’t ski in the terrain park so don’t need my bindings at or close to core center. Not sure why pow riders mount their bindings forward. If I did a lot more switch and trick riding and went back to riding rails, I’d want to be core center (over very close) to improve my balance. However, I love the steep terrain especially in bumps and fresh pow so I mount my bindings mid sole. If you don't want mid sole then go forward +1-2 cm of mid sole.
    Last edited by bigairnbumps; 02-05-2008 at 10:02 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by comish View Post
    I do actually think my knee injury was significantly influenced by being on these skis.
    Did I miss where you mentioned what your dins were set at? I would think in a twisting awkward fall situation, that would at least be part of the discussion.

    sorry to hear about the knee
    Do you by chance happen to own a large, yellowish, very flat cat?

  14. #14
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    From an injury standpoint you are probably key for looking into the DIN setting. You should release following a movement like that unless the binding was set to a point that required a greater amount of force to release the boot or the binding malfunctioned and didn't release the boot.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 30d View Post
    Seems odd that there is a dip diving issue with the 185's cuz I'm 6'1" 210# on the 195's and unless I pressure the tips they float or punch through everything. I actually find them a blast in low angle pow because they keep me on top of the snow allowing me o actually ski it vs having to point it.

    Major bummer about the knee. Heal fast.
    Same here, 6'2 195 on 195's and they are super fun through the low angle/flats because I'm going so fast and floating I can ski more pow. I go nearly as fast through flat pow than if I jump on an established track. Zero tip dive, I have to really, really get on them to have them disappear, but then they pop right up.
    Go Sharks.

  16. #16
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    bigair, he knows all about where to mount these, there has been great discussion on here and input from the ski builders themselves. He's mounted them smack dab in the middle of the recommended line. Also, in a backwards twisting fall it doesn't take much to pop a knee or ligament.
    Forced days in bed this winter: 48
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  17. #17
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    check the mount again.. did you mount 98cm from the tip with the measuring tape touching the ski or in the air? could be something weird with the ski also.. does the tip flex "normally"?

    i'm 150lbs but there's no way i can get the tips to sink.. even when its completely flat.. unless i jump and pressure the tips at the same time.

  18. #18
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    It took me a couple of days to get used to skiing my 195's (mounted with Dukes at 103). Once I started being neutral and balanced on them, not trying to overski them, I found that I had no tip dive or traverse/groomer issues. First couple of day my quads were worked, now I'm way fresher at the end the day than I would be on traditional skis. It's been said before but skiing the reverse camber/sidecut skis is just a different way of sliding on snow which may take a little time to adjust to especially if you have steezy racer or PSIA technique.

    I still love skiing my Gots but the Praxis are just way too much fun on a fresh day to ski anything else. They're almost like cheating.

    Bummer about your knee Comish but to anyone having a tough time getting used to their Praxis, stop thinking about it and just ski.

    FWIW......After my first few runs on them, I thought I had screwed up the mount. After a couple of more, I was ready to post them in gear swap or trade for some 185's. One day, it just clicked. It was a bit of a slow process but totally worth sticking it out in the end.
    Last edited by mikemcee; 02-06-2008 at 10:34 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Yodler View Post
    First couple of day my quads were worked
    Me too, and in different places than usual -- kind of the outside posterior of the thigh, up into the glutes.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolaideprived View Post
    bigair, he knows all about where to mount these, there has been great discussion on here and input from the ski builders themselves. He's mounted them smack dab in the middle of the recommended line. Also, in a backwards twisting fall it doesn't take much to pop a knee or ligament.
    Thank you, my thoughts exactly...

    Can't recheck mounting as skis are gone. Like I said at the top, I would have added the toe shim first and then moved back 1cm if I still owned the skis and had a functioning knee.

    I'm fairly sure my knee was not a result of the bindings as they did eventually come off. Din was set at 9 since you are wondering.

    Interesting to read everyone's thoughts. I put this out here as one guy's experiences. I would definitely mount at the back of the range, no question about it.
    He who has the most fun wins!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluffballs View Post
    Same here, 6'2 195 on 195's and they are super fun through the low angle/flats because I'm going so fast and floating I can ski more pow. I go nearly as fast through flat pow than if I jump on an established track. Zero tip dive, I have to really, really get on them to have them disappear, but then they pop right up.
    Ditto. (6'1" 185 lbs, mounted 103)

    Sorry about the knee, Comish. Hope you heal quickly.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Yodler View Post
    Once I started being neutral and balanced on them, not trying to overski them, I found that I had no tip dive or traverse/groomer issues. First couple of day my quads were worked, now I'm way fresher at the end the day than I would be on traditional skis. It's been said before but skiing the reverse camber/sidecut skis is just a different way of sliding on snow which may take a little time to adjust to especially if you have steezy racer or PSIA technique.
    I think this is likely the problem. Once you figure out how to ski them they should be the easiest least tip divey ski you've ever skied on. I'm in love with my 195s after having spent 3-seasons on Spatulas.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Yodler View Post
    Once I started being neutral and balanced on them, not trying to overski them, I found that I had no tip dive or traverse/groomer issues. First couple of day my quads were worked, now I'm way fresher at the end the day than I would be on traditional skis.
    Agreed as well. They're skis that you ride, not that you drive.*






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  24. #24
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    FWIW: I've got demo toes with 25mm of travel on my 185 praxis, so I've tried them everywhere from 97 to 99.5 from the tip. I prefer 99.5 and I'd go further back if I could...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by davep View Post
    FWIW: I've got demo toes with 25mm of travel on my 185 praxis, so I've tried them everywhere from 97 to 99.5 from the tip. I prefer 99.5 and I'd go further back if I could...
    I believe I instructed you to get the 195s.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

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