How to tell if you've burned your base and what to do about it?

[kidwoo]

I've always used a clothing iron to wax my snowboards on the rare occasion that I did. Always used lots of wax but to be honest, I don't know if I would have noticed screwing up the bases. My boards were either jib sticks that I dulled the edges on to ride rails or powderboards which never saw a single tune at all but did get waxed on rare occasion.


So I'm older, would like to be wiser, and skis are expensive.............. I know I need to get a proper wax iron but how do I tell if I've already burned a base?

And if I have, what to do about it. I've got one pair in particular I want to last a while.

Thanks.

[dfinn]

wait until after you're done waxing to get high

[schuss]

as far as I know, it's pretty hard to burn a base. Just don't put it so hot that the wax is smoking, and don't leave it on any area for too long.

[dirtybryan]

Always put the iron on the lowest setting, even if it gets annoying melting the wax and never stop moving the iron when you have it on your skis. If you melted your bases, like truely melted them, you won't have any structure there to say the least. At a summer ski camp I saw some poor 12 year old kid do this to his race skis, literally a puddle of base material sitting between the two edges.

[mtbakerskier]

Basically if you have heated the base material enough to "burn it" (You're not realy burning / degradign the HDPE unless it is actually on fire or turning color) You will notice that it will no longer absorbe wax. In reality what is really hapening is that you are heating the base material enough to "aneal" it causing it to harden and somewhat closing the poors. This is generally only a few mm deep, so a base grind will cure the problem.

[kidwoo]

Basically if you have heated the base material enough to "burn it" (You're not realy burning / degradign the HDPE unless it is actually on fire or turning color) You will notice that it will no longer absorbe wax. In reality what is really hapening is that you are heating the base material enough to "aneal" it causing it to harden and somewhat closing the poors. This is generally only a few mm deep, so a base grind will cure the problem.


Right on. That's kind of what I figured. I've used these skis over the last two weekends only. Corn skiing obviously. I just noticed that they seem to be drying and in need of another wax sooner than I would have expected. I waxed them once when I first got them, once after last weekend and even after just one run yesterday, they looked like they needed it again. Just trying to figure out if I did in fact get some annealing going on with the first application. Makes sense that more granular snow would be more abrasive but after one run? Skins have been on them too for what it's worth.

thanks for the insight guys

[upallnight]

Right on. That's kind of what I figured. I've used these skis over the last two weekends only. Corn skiing obviously. I just noticed that they seem to be drying and in need of another wax sooner than I would have expected. I waxed them once when I first got them, once after last weekend and even after just one run yesterday, they looked like they needed it again. Just trying to figure out if I did in fact get some annealing going on with the first application. Makes sense that more granular snow would be more abrasive but after one run? Skins have been on them too for what it's worth.

thanks for the insight guys

What mtbakerskier said is true....it's actually not *that* hard to burn a base. I think it happens at 285*F.

What wax are you using? Swix CH7 burns at 265*F or so.... so an iron that's a touch too hot for winter wax that "lingers" on part of the ski for too long can burn a base (start to cause the "pores" to close and no longer absorb wax). This is less likely to happen if you err on the side of using more wax than less, and ensuring that the iron never touches part of the ski that does not have wax on it.

If you touch the topsheet of the ski while waxing and it feels hot, you're either moving too slow or the iron is waay too hot.

Really abrasive snow can "burn" the base, too.

Fixing a burned base is not that hard (assuming it's not burned really bad). If you remove some base material (flatten it) and re-structure, you can usually refresh/renew the base. Badly burned? Remove more base. :(

Were those your first trips on a brand new ski? I find it's good to wax a new ski 2-5 times. I usually do two coast before hitting the snow with a new pair...then I wax each of the first 3 times out. Yep...it's quite a bit, but I believe that putting in the time at the outside really prepares the base for the life of the ski and reduces the maintenance over time.

I think what you may be experiencing is that the base was sorta dry, you skied on abrasive snow, and you had skins on 'em. All that can make the base appear to dry out faster.

Hope this helps.

[kidwoo]

What mtbakerskier said is true....it's actually not *that* hard to burn a base. I think it happens at 285*F.

What wax are you using?

Just the cheapo swix yellow warm stuff



If you touch the topsheet of the ski while waxing and it feels hot, you're either moving too slow or the iron is waay too hot.

There's no way I've ever gotten a ski or board that hot.



I think what you may be experiencing is that the base was sorta dry, you skied on abrasive snow, and you had skins on 'em. All that can make the base appear to dry out faster.



That's kind of what I figured but between last weekend and yesterday, I've only had like 8 descents total. Not that much considering averages of only about 1-2 grand of vert each.

I've always used generous amounts of wax so iron/base contact is pretty nominal but as dry as these things have been looking, I got a little worried. I finally have a pair of skis I'm in love with and want to last so there's probably some paranoia.:)

I'll just go ahead and do some consecutive coats and see how they fare next time I head out.

thanks again

[upallnight]

There's no way I've ever gotten a ski or board that hot.

It doesn't take too long for it to even feel warm, esp at the thinner parts of the ski. Get in the habit of touching the topsheet as you wax... it'll give you some feedback.






That's kind of what I figured but between last weekend and yesterday, I've only had like 8 descents total. Not that much considering averages of only about 1-2 grand of vert each.

I've always used generous amounts of wax so iron/base contact is pretty nominal but as dry as these things have been looking, I got a little worried. I finally have a pair of skis I'm in love with and want to last so there's probably some paranoia.:)

I'll just go ahead and do some consecutive coats and see how they fare next time I head out.

thanks again
Spring snow (in addition to being super-abrasive) is often dirty, and this dirt can effectively reduce the amount of wax your bases absorb.

Next time you wax (or before you put 'em away for the summer), give it the pimp treatment by doing a hot scrape as follows:
* put down a layer of wax
* scrape while the wax is still warm

This helps to pull up old wax/dirt/other crap from the base and opens it up for that 2nd coat of wax. (Leave that coat on for the summer or wait until fully cool to scrape.

Cool to see that you are psyched on taking care of your skis. Careful tuning does pay off on the snow (although I hope you are always skiing pow and never have to worrry about a tune too much!).

A fine steel brush can also help you refresh the structure of the base, which can remove oxidation and further open the pores. (Thicker steel brushes are too destructive if not super careful, IMHO.)

[mtbakerskier]

Here is what I do when I get new sticks.

1. Imediatly have them stone ground with the appropriate base structure.

2. Hot scrape 2~3 times as indicated above.

3.Hot wax the skis 5 times, using an increasing amount of hardner additive each time.

4. place skis in a hotbox.

5. Cycle wax them. I.E. Make a run, Hotwax, make another run hot wax. Do this 3~4 times perferably do it on hill.

Dooing this makes the base as saturated as possible. Hot wax every 4~5 days is than more than adequate to keep them in top shape for the rest of the season. Remeber a proper base structure is even more important than having the best wax. But keeping your skis well waxed will maintain the base structure longer, since there is less friction causing base wear on skis with apropriate amounts of wax.

[upallnight]

Here is what I do when I get new sticks.

1. Imediatly have them stone ground with the appropriate base structure.

2. Hot scrape 2~3 times as indicated above.

3.Hot wax the skis 5 times, using an increasing amount of hardner additive each time.

4. place skis in a hotbox.

5. Cycle wax them. I.E. Make a run, Hotwax, make another run hot wax. Do this 3~4 times perferably do it on hill.

Dooing this makes the base as saturated as possible. Hot wax every 4~5 days is than more than adequate to keep them in top shape for the rest of the season. Remeber a proper base structure is even more important than having the best wax. But keeping your skis well waxed will maintain the base structure longer, since there is less friction causing base wear on skis with apropriate amounts of wax.

Definitely do not ignore step #1 -- lots of skis do not arrive at shops flat. I do flattening & structure by hand. I've found that some shops that do not do a careful grind can cause work-hardened edges, which then need to be skied on for a bit before you can properly set the edges to your liking.

Insert step 1b: Set your edge angles properly...once. (Do this after you've got a flat base.)

I ski step 5 (never waxed on-hill before), and I'd LOVE to do a hotbox (had that done by shops in Tahoe a couple times)... Guess they're not too hard to build, but I've not gotten around to it.

[upallnight]

PS mtbakerskier is doing an absolutely PIMP tune. Mental note: Do not hesitate to buy any used skis from him (or her).

[mtbakerskier]

PS mtbakerskier is doing an absolutely PIMP tune. Mental note: Do not hesitate to buy any used skis from him (or her).

I am most definatly not a chick.

[kidwoo]

I am most definatly not a chick.


Dammit!!!


Kept hoping you were the nurse.


At least put on the outfit for me eh?

[bossass]

Here is what I do when I get new sticks.

1. Imediatly have them stone ground with the appropriate base structure.

2. Hot scrape 2~3 times as indicated above.

3.Hot wax the skis 5 times, using an increasing amount of hardner additive each time.

4. place skis in a hotbox.

5. Cycle wax them. I.E. Make a run, Hotwax, make another run hot wax. Do this 3~4 times perferably do it on hill.

Dooing this makes the base as saturated as possible. Hot wax every 4~5 days is than more than adequate to keep them in top shape for the rest of the season. Remeber a proper base structure is even more important than having the best wax. But keeping your skis well waxed will maintain the base structure longer, since there is less friction causing base wear on skis with apropriate amounts of wax.

I'm calling BS MBS. Anyone who would go through this much trouble to structure their bases would certainly not leave their entire quiver in their rocket box all winter to rot and oxidize.:rolleyes: :wink:

[splat]

Basically if you have heated the base material enough to "burn it" (You're not realy burning / degradign the HDPE unless it is actually on fire or turning color) You will notice that it will no longer absorbe wax. In reality what is really hapening is that you are heating the base material enough to "aneal" it causing it to harden and somewhat closing the poors. This is generally only a few mm deep, so a base grind will cure the problem.

Who makes bases a 'few mm' deep, mbs? Most are around 1mm, less after sanding and grinding. Check the material specs on Crown's bases. Not much over 1.3 mm. Another issue in a too hot iron on a base is the breakdown temp of the resin under the base. No more bond = bubble.

[kidwoo]

Unfortunately I do not own nor have plans to build a hot box. Mexican food and throwing them in the bed with me will have to do for now. Down covers should warm uniformly no?



thanks for the input guys

[mtbakerskier]

Who makes bases a 'few mm' deep, mbs? Most are around 1mm, less after sanding and grinding. Check the material specs on Crown's bases. Not much over 1.3 mm. Another issue in a too hot iron on a base is the breakdown temp of the resin under the base. No more bond = bubble.


LOL It's been a while since I've speced base material. The point is thou that the burn effect only effects a very very small layer of the base it's self. I would be more worried about the base material becomeing degraded before I would worry about the T-set epoxy that binds ithat has a much higher degradation temp. As the Base material gets hot it EXPANDS wich is really what causes the bubling not the degradtion of the epoxy wich would occure at much higher temps.

BTW I just checked the UHMWPE thickness on the matrial I speced on my last project and it was actually 2.23mm. The burning effect described abouve in most cases will only penetrate a few tenths of a mm. Hope that is more clear.

[splat]

Who made that base? crown or isosport?
even better - who uses it?
and what edge did you spec?

[mtbakerskier]

Who made that base? crown or isosport?
even better - who uses it?
and what edge did you spec?

It was a High-temp UHMWPE from Crown. Not-exactly standard ski spec. I needed a base material that could withstand a much higher temp than standard base material and have less thermal expansion. I dont have the exct trade name infront of me, but I could probally find it. However it wass about double the price of anything you would normally see.

Base material was edges from you know who, and are 2.35mmH, 2.2W, with the flange being and additonal 3.75 wide, and 0.76mm thick based upon measurign a x section with the claipers sitting on my desk.

[mtbakerskier]

I'm calling BS MBS. Anyone who would go through this much trouble to structure their bases would certainly not leave their entire quiver in their rocket box all winter to rot and oxidize.:rolleyes: :wink:

Hey I ski at Baker rember, Who needs edges up here? I am anal about well waxed bases, but dont give a dam about rusty edges. You dont need sharp edges to ski pow :biggrin:

[splat]

It was a High-temp UHMWPE from Crown. Not-exactly standard ski spec. I needed a base material that could withstand a much higher temp than standard base material and have less thermal expansion. I dont have the exct trade name infront of me, but I could probally find it. However it wass about double the price of anything you would normally see.

Base material was edges from you know who, and are 2.35mmH, 2.2W, with the flange being and additonal 3.75 wide, and 0.76mm thick based upon measurign a x section with the claipers sitting on my desk.

So you were doin' superduper rail skis, weren't ya?

bwaaaaaa.....

[mtbakerskier]

So you were doin' superduper rail skis, weren't ya?

bwaaaaaa.....

Not the kind that you are thinking of :fmicon:

[splat]

Noice.

Touche'

[stuckathuntermtn]

OOPS! i've been burning everyones bases. and mine. smoking wax = not good, huh? lol

EDIT: I think the shop guys always do that. ya know, set the iron on 3 and hear that sound, which i think is just water in teh wax, or the wax.

[upallnight]

OOPS! i've been burning everyones bases. and mine. smoking wax = not good, huh? lol

EDIT: I think the shop guys always do that. ya know, set the iron on 3 and hear that sound, which i think is just water in teh wax, or the wax.

You can smoke wax w/o burning a base, but the point is that if you're running an iron hot enough to smoke wax, (a) you're destroying the wax & (b) your iron is probably hot enough that it could burn the base.

Warm- and medium-temp waxes generally melt optimally at around 250 (give or take). Smoking them means your iron is probably around 270 or hotter, and bases burn at around 285.