JONG microgeography ?

[Max Gosey]

What is the difference between an apron, a shoulder, and a saddle? Always heard the terms in descriptions of routes and in TR's but I've never known what's what. Post pics of examples if you guys are willing, please.

Thanks. Didn't really think this ? was appropriate for the main forum.

[Toby]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

Apron: e.g. run-out of a couloir or chute. The triangle or fan-shaped bit where all the sluff ends up.
Shoulder: e.g. the convex area on the side of a bowl, gully, or similar feature. I.e. where terrain goes from concave or flat to convex.
Saddle: Lower point on a ridge between two peaks or subpeaks.

[AltaPowderDaze]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

Apron: e.g. run-out of a couloir or chute. The triangle or fan-shaped bit where all the sluff ends up.
Shoulder: e.g. the convex area on the side of a bowl, gully, or similar feature. I.e. where terrain goes from concave or flat to convex.
Saddle: Lower point on a ridge between two peaks or subpeaks.


that's how i've always thought of them.

[Camel Toad]

here is a photo for a (crappy) description.

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergalleries/albums/userpics/normal_Throne%20%26%20Trolls%20worked%20up.JPG
the saddle (this isn't necessarily the best representation) is the area between the two peaks, a cwm is pretty damn similar.

the shoulder is pretty obvious.

and the apron is the debris field (fan) area below, although often times it is given a slightly different connotation particularly in TRs if teh apron is large and a good ski run. this is a short apron.

hope that helps

edit for scale: that is an airplane in the foreground

[PNWbrit]

Max you should pick up a copy of Freedom of the Hills - although not primarily aimed at skiers it's THE reference book or at least starting point for anyone wanting to spend time in the mountains.

[nesta]

[QUOTE=Camel Toad]here is a photo for a (crappy) description.

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergalleries/albums/userpics/normal_Throne%20%26%20Trolls%20worked%20up.JPG
the saddle (this isn't necessarily the best representation) is the area between the two peaks, a cwm is pretty damn similar.

the shoulder is pretty obvious.

and the apron is the debris field (fan) area below, although often times it is given a slightly different connotation particularly in TRs if teh apron is large and a good ski run. this is a short apron.

hope that helps
it doesn't really help when you have some factual errors
cwm=cirque=bowl
saddle=col
arete=ridge between 2 cirques, that might be one version of a shoulder as well, I like AltaPowderDaze's description

[Max Gosey]

Max you should pick up a copy of Freedom of the Hills - although not primarily aimed at skiers it's THE reference book or at least starting point for anyone wanting to spend time in the mountains.
Cool. I very well may do that.

Thanks, guys. That does help. :)

[Max Gosey]

What's a serac?

[Camel Toad]

a big block of ice that has a tendency to collapse at random moments.

http://www.northshorerescue.com/images/mtlogan/ex/15%20below%20the%20haunting%20serac%20(photo-isa%20budke).jpg

[Summit]

http://www.soulskier.com/summit/anatomy-of-a-mountain_721.jpg
I had this on my computer... not sure where I got it from...

[Pow4Brains]

Thanks Summit.

[Max Gosey]

Clutch performance by Summit. Thanks, dood.

[upallnight]

I had this on my computer... not sure where I got it from...

I think that may be from Allen & Mike's Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ericbalogcom-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F 1575400766%3Fv%3Dglance%26n%3D283155). I've glanced at the book (but don't own it), and it looks like a good resource.

I *can* vouch for The Illustrated Guide to Glacier Travel and Crevasse Rescue (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ericbalogcom-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=tg%2Fdetail%2F-%2F1893682064%2Fqid%3D1148424720%2Fsr%3D1-1%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fv%3Dglance%26s%3Dbooks), which I presonally find to be an improvement upon Glacier Travel and Crevasse Rescue (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ericbalogcom-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=tg%2Fdetail%2F-%2F1893682064%2Fqid%3D1148424720%2Fsr%3D1-1%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fv%3Dglance%26s%3Dbooks), which I first read about 5-10 years ago. Both contain great information, but Clelland's illustrations go a long way to making the ideas more accessible.

I suspect the same is true for all books with which he is associated.

[cj001f]

It's from Couloir Magazine:
http://www.couloirmag.com/articles/features/Mt_Anatomy/anatomy.html

The Backcountry Ski book is useful if you are new to winter travel. Good to put by the shitter, read something every dump.

[Pow4Brains]

Summit or cj, you got a link that works?