A note to the collective [Archive] - Teton Gravity Research Forums

Owens Never Sleeps

10-03-2003, 03:36 PM

I've been thinking about this and I want you to hear me out. I know everyone is pretty pissed right now and I don't blame you. As a maggot I mourn the loss of the maggot community history as much as anyone and the indifference (and nastyness) of Daniel is unacceptable. At the same time, I've seen you all say in one way or another that you don't hold this against Powder Mag personally - and you shouldn't. I just spoke with Metcalf and everyone on their end of the equation is shocked and pretty damn unhappy about this.

I am happy to have everyone here and I will do my best to accomodate the needs of the collective as mentioned in other threads. The traffic certainly doesn't hurt us. It's my philosophy to watch this place and make it as kick ass as possible whether there are 10,000 of you or 10 of you.

Here's my concern - I grew up on Powder Mag. The people and the magazine feed my personal stoke, support TGR as a business and a vision, cooperate with us from a web perspective and share a dream. They are taking an incredible kick in the testicles here and that distresses me.

I've heard talk of re-developing the community here (details in other threads)and that's great. I've also heard talk of re-developing the community elsewhere and that's also great. What I haven't heard is anyone talking about how to possibly make this work with Powder as well and that's not so great. Straight up - they have been our freinds. That goes a long way with me and I'm not ready to just piss all over it. Maybe there is a way to evolve this into something that works better forthe maggots as a community, includes TGR (and always myself - for I am and always will be a maggot), and Powder Magazine as well. Some of you have laid conditions on the Powder board for a re-winning of trust (get rid of Daniel, make an effort to recover the history, etc...) Maybe this is a good place to start.

Think about it - there could be advantages to a true collective fed from multiple avenues with possibly a better "Care Taker" structure than there once was.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers and as I said - Make yourselves at home. I'll do everything I can to make this place work for you - because that's what I do. I'm not telling you to go back. Hell, I'm not telling you to do anything.

I don't want to spark off a huge debate. In fact, I'd like you to reflect on things for awhile before you respond. The instant nature of the internet sometimes creates situations where emotional issues reach a point of critical mass when they don't have to.

Do me a favor and think about it. They are our freinds.

In the meantime - I am looking into a better forum that is not such a resource hog that I can import all of the TGR forum history into. UBB is a major hog, but I value the minion history so I'll figure it out.

Thanks

Owens Never Sleeps

einan

10-03-2003, 03:38 PM

I just shed a tear.

iceman

10-03-2003, 03:41 PM

We know they're our friends. We just don't want to create more history and have it get erased again. If they could guarantee that it wouldn't get deleted arbitrarily (they promised it last time) all would be good. Until that day I will not post there.

Ted Stryker

10-03-2003, 03:41 PM

No doors closed here.

Maybe we can negotiate a larger photo section, and a meatdrink or phUnk center page.

[ October 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ted Stryker ]

Yossarian

10-03-2003, 03:42 PM

Owens, for help with the resource/history stuff here, write me an email and I'll pass you to a guy that runs a huge site with ongoing success, and ought to be able to tell you what's worked best for them.

board

10-03-2003, 03:43 PM

thanks for the thoughtful words ONS. I have done all the thinking i'm going to do about this and I stand as follows : I will go right back to posting at powmag and being a "part" of their community as long as there is NO moderator/s. simple as that.

Yossarian

10-03-2003, 03:48 PM

what about actual self-moderation?

I know of another site (same one referred to in my above post) that has taken long-timers as volunteers and turned them into joint admins for various forums. Shoot, you could even rotate the admin duties occasionally, so no one has to do it all the time.

[ October 03, 2003: Message edited by: Yossarian ]

bossass

10-03-2003, 03:48 PM

Well said ONS:

I just talked to Metcalf after he talked to you and he is generally concerned, distressed and depressed about this whole thing. We're booting December out the doors tonight and Metcalf has already involved a bunch of higher up about what happened and what to do about it. More will happen on Monday. Daniel will never be back. I think PMag will be back to form very shortly, I will be the first to advocate a return, or now, more appropiatly, an allegiance to both forums (ONS and TGR have shown great hospitality). From my perspective, what happened was an instant decision from someone who didn't really know what he was effecting. I'm not defending, I'm just saying there was not one collective plan to screw anyone over. One person made a big mistake, and the full consequences have yet to be seen. Maybe ya'all will never be back, hopefully you will. Metcalf is working on making it a safe home as it was before. Just keep in mind it is a viable option still. I'll be lurking an posting wherever we all end up. All you guys/gals rock!

Cornholio

10-03-2003, 03:50 PM

CO, I think some sort of joint venture may be a great idea, especially since Powder and TGR have been moving toward a more cozy relationship for a few years now, it seems.

The primedia sites, however, are pretty structured. In fact, they're all nearly the same. I think this may be an obstacle.

At any rate, the idea of a site separated from both Powder and TGR doesn't really help either of you, does it? You both want/need the page views, right?

To make a short story short, I think it's a fukking fantastic idea, whose implementation I can't quite envision. But, there are plenty of smart people here, and I think its a great idea worth investigating.

joshbu

10-03-2003, 03:53 PM

I agree KD and company are our friends.

I think many of us are convinced that Primedia is the problem. So when I say 'they,' I refer to the people who administer the board, not the people who produce the magazine which I still love.

The main complain I have is that this is not the first time we've had to deal with this kind of nonsense.

IF they hadn't deleted the threads, I could point you at dozens of distressed threads.

1. They turned on swear word filtering. We forgave them.

2. They botched the migration to a new UBB, causing many usernames to be lost. We forgave them.

3. They deleted a massive number of threads. This should have been the last straw. We lost years worth of history. But, we still forgave them.

4. The final outrage. Thousands of threads deleted without warning. Users banned. IP numbers visible to the world. All after the previous outrage.

This is a pattern of behavoir.

Now, this matters more than just a little. Go review Lowell Skoog's Ski Mountaineering history project. He relies on UBB posts and accounts in order to create that history. He's not mirroring the threads. If the thread dies, so does the history of the event.

The online forum has become the written history (along with the orla/visual history of ski films) of freeskiing.

Until Powder runs the board and 'they' are completely removed from the process, there should be no talk about returning. They'll just screw us again.

Karl Hungus

10-03-2003, 03:55 PM

Here is the problem that I see with this. The staff at powder does not and will not have absolute and direct control over the board. Primedia does. Therefore the people who support and feel the stoke created within are not the people in charge, a faceless conglomerate is and will be.

Suggestions that something be saved rings well towards a small staff of people, but the voices were raised once before and threads/history was lost. Once again, this time without warning, threads/history was lost, identities were exposed and security for some people compromised. I don't see this changing, unless total control of the servers are given to each individual magazine. Unfortunately this isn't something that is likely to happen as a major companies main goal is consolidation of resources not expansion of responsibility.

Remember this wasn't just a policy handed down to powmag, this was handed down from primedia to (I imagine) all of its chat server/server space individuals. So what is in place to prevent it from happening again? Nothing.

Primedia OWNS the magazine and it's resources, they are free to do what they want.

Yossarian

10-03-2003, 03:56 PM

Create the Winternet Forums, run independently of both entities, but as the discussion forums for both. Users click through to the Winternet from TGR or Powdermag.com.

The Reverend Floater

10-03-2003, 03:58 PM

I, for one, don't care. I grew up reading Powder, but TGR has been in my vcr/dvd for years, too.

Powdermag.com is the first and only forum I have ever regularly particpated in (aside from here, obviously), but Owens is the fuking man with a plan.

I wish I could support Powdah without supporting Primevil. Where's my hoody?

Much love to both and I'll go where ever Yossarian goes because he's the wind beneath my wings.

AntiSoCalSkier

10-03-2003, 03:58 PM

Could this forum turn into the TGR/Powder forum with links from both Powder and TGR? That way, we have a forum that is run by someone who cares, but it's still associated with Powder. The forum would be controlled by TGR, so it's not being run by some faceless corporate entity prone to making bad decisions and angering their customers, but Powder would still get to plaster their name all over it too and have some sort of online forum to commune with their readers. I would guess that there would need to be some sort of financial consideration given to TGR since it would be an increased workload/bandwidth for them (ONS will finally have an excuse for playing around on the Powder boards). Think about it, this might work if you could talk the Primevil ones into giving up control.

10-03-2003, 03:59 PM

Owens, Good point, but something in the relationship has damaged. No so far as the true powder-crew goes, but certainly with PrickMedia. Since these guys took over, there have been more trouble than in the long period before that. And you know what? I think we've put up with a lot of shit in the past, but this time PrickMedia has shown too much disrespect to their own readers. Maggots should stay far from any company that shows that kind of behaviour to it's own clients.

Since my short time being a maggot I've been amazed by the sheer pleasure these people take out of the simple things in life. About the willingness to share and give, without asking anything in return. Maggots are the people that make me feel good about the world and in the end, they are the ones that deserve the best out of life, simply because they try to live it!

The contrast is obvious. PrickMedia should never have been involved with Powder in the first place, simply because the Powdercrew, the ubermaggots, deserve better. They deserve someone who treats em with respect and doesn´t pull stunts like this. Maggots aren´t some corporate decision to be made, maggots are the result of a way of life and should be treated accordingly.

To put it this way, it´s just not right to sleep with your ex-girlfriend. That's my advice to anyone who does, which makes it a choice : Either PrickMedia goes or the maggots go.

A simple solution would be Powder giving us a space of our own, where we can build a community, with guarantees that no-one, except true maggots, will ever touch that space.

Just my semidrunk rant..

Cornholio

10-03-2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Yossarian:
Create the Winternet Forums, run independently of both entities, but as the discussion forums for both. Users click through to the Winternet from TGR or Powdermag.com.

This loses a lot of the other functionality that's being kicked around in the other thread, but it's a great start, eh? Eh Comrade? Eh?

Toldja there were smart people here.

Owens Never Sleeps

10-03-2003, 04:07 PM

All I'm aqsking is that everyone slow down a little and think creatively about it. I know you can do that. And give Metcalf and his crew (and me)a chance to think about it too.

Beleive me - from a clinical perspective I'm watching this and learning a LOT about online social behavior. I hope to learn this lesson and take it to heart as a webmaster, and netizen.

Yossarian

10-03-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by The Reverend Floater:
I'll go where ever Yossarian goes because he's the wind beneath my wings.

Flattery will get you everywhere.

Are you drunk yet? Game 3 Cubs, Braves just up the road here in C-town, I plan to be sauced shortly.

I don't even know what to say about the whole board thing, really. I lost a million thoughts and twenty or thirty great trip reports in that clusterfuck. On the other hand, I was already planning on being more, doing more, writing more, skiing more, hucking more, and connecting with you, the powderpeople, more, so maybe it's not so horrible.

I will not, however, make the mistake of failing to preserve my thoughts in a seperate place this next time around.

Arty50

10-03-2003, 04:16 PM

First of, let's get the geeky stuff out of the way.

ONS, go check out the forums at MacNN (http://forums.macnn.com). I've been over there for years. They used UBB for a long time and eventually the sheer volume of posts over there completely overwhelmed it. A couple of years ago they switched to vBulletin and have never looked back. It's been absolutely awesome.

tooki is one of the admins over there, and perhaps you could email him with questions about switching or at least to find out who's can help with that. I have the same screenname over there, so feel free to say I recommended you contact them. They went through the whole ordeal of moving old threads and tweaking the vBulletin with some custom options. So I think they'd be a great resource if they're willing to help out.

As for your comments on going back to pmag, all I have to say is that you rock ( <- understatement of the century). I went back over there today to check for stragglers, and there was a thread where a bunch of people were leaving their email addys pleading to find their way over here. I read Metcalf's thread too. Needless to say, I was bummed...strike that...downright depressed. And what about the people that aren't around or are on hiatus. Sherpa comes to mind, Treskcow, and so many others whether active or lurkers. The whole thing is just sad.

With that said, I will only consider going back if Daniel is gone and the archives are restored. The latter isn't absolute, but the former is. I will not consider a return if they merely neuter him. He must never hold any form of control over that board ever again: whether it be access to the server or admin/mod status on the board. I won't compromise on this. As for the achives, I humbly demand that an archive forum be established. MacNN has done this, and DJSapp knows of another site too. Basically, it's a place to find all the old threads. They're locked and can't be posted to. I know they do this to reduce the database size and help keep the server load down. This is turn helps the board to run smoothly. But all of the really cool info that people may be looking for is saved for eternity. It's definitely the way to go from both a user's and administrator's perspective.

board

10-03-2003, 04:19 PM

bossass

10-03-2003, 04:20 PM

The order came down from Primedia to clear whatever was older then 90 days (I'm not actually sure this even happened). Primedia is a business and what went down was superbad for them in the short and long term if nobody comes back. Like I said before. One person made a bad mistake out of nowhere. Don't underestimate Metcalf and KD's ability to have complete governing control over the message board. They didn't really need to before, because the maggots went along fairly unnoticed by the company. If they would've known something like this might happen, i think they would've demand more control, not just to retain the ad sales potential from all the hits, but also because they give a shit about all of you. I don't think there will be any empty promises this time around. Unfortunately the web staff is mostly gone right now and we have a deadline. Damage might not be cleaned up until Monday. But rest assured that nobody here or at Primedia have a plan to make the message board a certain way. It was just a dumb mistake someone stumbled into.

Pinner

10-03-2003, 04:26 PM

Wherever Floater goes, I'll follow.

I listen to my Rice Crispies and do everything they tell me. This morning they told me I that I should relinquish free thought to cultish devotion. And so shall it be.

That is all.

The Reverend Floater

10-03-2003, 04:28 PM

Pinnnnnner....

Come to Ketchum. Bring Rev medicine, more live music and good times.....sshhhhhhhhh

10-03-2003, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Pinner:
I listen to my Rice Crispies and do everything they tell me. This morning they told me I that I should relinquish free thought to cultish devotion. And so shall it be.

Was it Snap, Crackle, or Pop?

Pinner

10-03-2003, 04:32 PM

Ketchummmmmm....

Yossarian

10-03-2003, 04:35 PM

Ketchup? Mmmmmmmmm....

[ October 03, 2003: Message edited by: Yossarian ]

FreakofSnow

10-03-2003, 04:37 PM

Dagnabit, we sure do got some thinkers in here. I love it. We'll figure something out that will be good for the masses.

I couldn't believe it last night, I told the wife they had hosed the board. She asks: "Where are all the maggots going to go now?". Even she knew (even with all shit she gives me) that it was gonna hit the fan.

truth

10-03-2003, 04:37 PM

If Pinner's taking advice from Rice Krispies we better base our servers in Battle Creek, lest we suffer the wrath of the Cheesey Poofs. Besides, Tony the TGR would be a fine neighbor. Now you may ask what this is all about, but don't fret. It's the way of the wagon. Have you ever been to Wagon Wheel Liquors? They have a drive thru.

Telenater

10-03-2003, 04:42 PM

I really do want to support powder, but I also think that our community can benefit from some of the changes suggested in the last couple days.

I have no experience with commercial web development, but is there a way that we can run and independant domain while maintaining the advertising hits for both Powder and TGR and what ever other companies (MSP, OMEN, Epicski :)) may choose to jump on board.

I know it'll require a larger dedication of IT staff on both sides, but the ends may justify the means.

TJ.Brk

10-03-2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by bossass:
Well said ONS:

I just talked to Metcalf after he talked to you and he is generally concerned, distressed and depressed about this whole thing. We're booting December out the doors tonight and Metcalf has already involved a bunch of higher up about what happened and what to do about it. More will happen on Monday. Daniel will never be back. I think PMag will be back to form very shortly, I will be the first to advocate a return, or now, more appropiatly, an allegiance to both forums (ONS and TGR have shown great hospitality). From my perspective, what happened was an instant decision from someone who didn't really know what he was effecting. I'm not defending, I'm just saying there was not one collective plan to screw anyone over. One person made a big mistake, and the full consequences have yet to be seen. Maybe ya'all will never be back, hopefully you will. Metcalf is working on making it a safe home as it was before. Just keep in mind it is a viable option still. I'll be lurking an posting wherever we all end up. All you guys/gals rock!

Boss both you and ONS have very valid points. However, I am still banned. And I shouldn't have been. Sure I posted under another name there trying to make point, but it is not the same. Ya I know the guys are busy, but I'm still banned, so are others. NO apology from anyone for it. We didn't deserve it. It will take an alot for me to go back, as it will the others that were banned. I'm not even going to post with the other name. And this problem has been going on for a while, not just in 2 days. Sad, depressed, mad, and disappointed that when I type in my password it says: "password locked, invalid and unrecognizable"

:(

splat

10-04-2003, 01:40 AM

I doubt Metcalf ever imagined for one minute when he put powdermag together that it would snowball and tumble in such short order because some nickel-pinching gigageek decided he could play god on the internet. Or that such a dedicated, yet quick to make a point solidarity would force change. I agree the history is valuable. Shit, powdermag was like an encyclopedia, a biography of thousands, and an address book rolled into a one big fatty of fellowship and fun. But for sure, the point has been made, and it looks like something good will come out of the numbers dropping because corporations run on numbers. I don't know how this will be resolved, but I'll bet a lot of solutions are getting mulled over this weekend. I don't know how data preservation is guaranteed , but it must be possible. There's so much I don't know I've felt it best to kick back and see what solutions are offered. It's beyond awesome the way Owens stepped up to the plate in such short order. If any business did that for me in my everyday affairs, loyalty would be instantaneous. I can only hope the best of both boards somehow come together to make everything better and I think it will. Nothing but good has ever come out of a bunch of maggots working to solve a problem. Ain't that what brotherhoods do?

Mr.Banned

10-04-2003, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by splat
Nothing but good has ever come out of a bunch of maggots working to solve a problem. Ain't that what brotherhoods do?

Yes:D

Pinner

10-04-2003, 02:01 AM

EXACTLY

Otherwise what are "botherhoods" for?
:D

laseranimal

10-04-2003, 06:41 AM

what kills me is the amount of knowledge that was lost

try doing a search in tech talk theres almost NOTHING there!! All those questions that we tell the JONGs to go look for aren't there we have lost a HUGE warehouse of information on skis and other gear :( No amount of appologizing can help me get over that fact

Buster Highmen

10-04-2003, 10:27 AM

Funny thing is that this was my homepage since last pmag weirdness. But I'll still post there anyway.

I had to learn how to let things go a long time ago the hard way.

Samwich

10-04-2003, 11:05 AM

I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I say anything that has already been said.

Here is how I see it from my low-wage earning, 17 year old perspective:

The money I spend on getting POWDER delivered to my mailbox is a much higher percentage of my annual income than it is for anyone else here. So, although i'm spending just as much as anyone else, it feels like I'm spending more. The amount I spend is not insignificant. (and my dad has a subscription, too... that's two PAID subscriptions going to one house)

When I am spending a pretty hefty sum, I REQUIRE good service. Not amazing service, not incredibly fantastic service... just good service.

The money I give to POWDER magazine is well spent, and i regret not a single penny. They go above and beyond the call of duty to provide me with EXCELLENT service. The mag is awesome, the mag is a part of me. Every maggot out there gets giddy, I'm sure, when they see it in the mailbox. I'm no exception. So POWDER, keep doing your stuff.

However, a percentage of my subscription payment goes to Primedia. They do NOT offer me good service. I don't give a fuck how small of a percentage we represent in their profit margin. We still pay for services that we do not get. Think about it: if you go to a restaurant and order a meal, and they take two days to bring it, you wouldn't be happy. If you order a magazine that arrives a month late, consistently... how is that any different? The same goes for merchandise distribution. POWDER, Primedia will be your eventual downfall. I'm sure no one orders POWDER merchandise twice. It takes too long to get here.

I want to find a way to cut Primedia out completely. I want my hard-earned dollars to go to POWDER and no one else. We need to come up with a way to do this. I am done paying for sub-standard service.

I'm sure there isn't any way that ONS could cut POWDER in on this website: he's a great guy, but there's a line between generosity and throwing money away to make a bunch of internet weirdos happy. ;)

However, if AH gets the site he's been talking about together, could we perhaps let POWDER sponsor it? Without cutting Primedia in at all? That way, we still get the sweet goodness of POWDER, without the shitty badness of Primedia. :)

Whatever... we'll come up with something.

Karl Stall

10-04-2003, 11:09 AM

Splat -
As always. leading the way with stoke, humor, wisdom, and soul!!!!

You are an inspiration and a great leader of the maggot hoard. :D

Thank you

Samwich

10-04-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by splat
I doubt Metcalf ever imagined for one minute when he put powdermag together that it would snowball and tumble in such short order because some nickel-pinching gigageek decided he could play god on the internet. Or that such a dedicated, yet quick to make a point solidarity would force change. I agree the history is valuable. Shit, powdermag was like an encyclopedia, a biography of thousands, and an address book rolled into a one big fatty of fellowship and fun. But for sure, the point has been made, and it looks like something good will come out of the numbers dropping because corporations run on numbers. I don't know how this will be resolved, but I'll bet a lot of solutions are getting mulled over this weekend. I don't know how data preservation is guaranteed , but it must be possible. There's so much I don't know I've felt it best to kick back and see what solutions are offered. It's beyond awesome the way Owens stepped up to the plate in such short order. If any business did that for me in my everyday affairs, loyalty would be instantaneous. I can only hope the best of both boards somehow come together to make everything better and I think it will. Nothing but good has ever come out of a bunch of maggots working to solve a problem. Ain't that what brotherhoods do?

First: yeah, corporations run on numbers... but we represent such a small margin of profit that it would surprise me if Primedia took notice at all. Don't forget, POWDER subscribers represent a tiny fraction of their income, and we are a tiny fraction of POWDER subscribers. So i don't think it will impact them at all. :(

Second: We're all pissed about the knowledge that was lost... but it wasn't lost permanently. Where did it come from? The maggots. We all still know this stuff, so we can rebuild. They may be able to destroy our bodies, but NOT OUT SOULS!!!! :)

Third: This is an everyday affair for me, so ONS and TGR have won loyalty from me, instantly... not that they didn't have it before. ONS: High Life has been ordered, and I'm looking forward to seeing it in my mailbox. I'm also confident that it won't show up in three years, because you aren't Primedia. :)