Personal Locator Beacons?

[spindrift]

Initially posted this at epic, but decided this is probably a better place to ask the question...

Recent discussions of avy beacons and related equipment got me thinking about the "standard" checklist of safety gear. They provoked me into ordering CPR masks for all the family packs. They also made me start wondering if a minimum of two PLBs per group should be considered a "must have" set of BC gear?

Sending someone for help, or fooling with phones/two ways burns time and people power better spent on rescuing someone while they are still possibly alive. Not contacting the emergency response machinery right away potentially delays needed medical help.

If the proverbial shit hits the fan, wouldn't it be better to "pull the trigger" on a PLB and have everyone immediately organized on-site for a search -- with the assumption that the PLB(s) does its job and beckons search and rescue ASAP? Would the lack of two way communication and situation specificity lead to sub-optimal responses? Impact response times?

At about $600-700 each, these are relative budget busters. All things considered, should that matter?

To check out what these are like, see the PLB section here http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html and the catalog entries at http://www.backcountry.com/store/group/100000170/c3/s7/Personal-Locator-Beacons.html

I'm not advocating any less focus on training, avy beacons, shovels, probes, first aid kits, etc. Just wondering if PLBs have been overlooked. Or, if not overlooked, why they are not discussed more?

[Cornholio]

My fear with PLBs is that they will cause a false sense of BC security. I already hear talk, on here, that goes like this: "It seemed sketchy but we had beacons and all our gear so we went for it." Or "It looked tempting but we didn't have beacons so we didn't ski it."

Your decision making needs to be made in isolation from all this extra gear, but the more gear you have the harder that is.

That said, I think a plb isn't a bad idea at all.

[nealric]

"It seemed sketchy but we had beacons and all our gear so we went for it." Or "It looked tempting but we didn't have beacons so we didn't ski it."

Seems to me that there is only a problem with the former statement.

[Cornholio]

Seems to me that there is only a problem with the former statement.

So you'd ski something when you had a beacon, but not ski the same slope when you didn't? The only reason you would do that is if you felt the beacon somehow conferred extra safety to the slope itself.

Make your decisions to *avoid* the slides at all costs.

[Squatch]

So you'd ski something when you had a beacon, but not ski the same slope when you didn't? The only reason you would do that is if you felt the beacon somehow conferred extra safety to the slope itself.

Make your decisions to *avoid* the slides at all costs.

I don't think I would go into the backcountry without a beacon. I'm not saying beacons prevent slides, or anything ridiculous like that. But beacons do greatly increase survival chances if, god forbid, somebody got buried. No one can be certain that they'll make it down the slope avy-free; even 99% sure still leaves room for error. Having that beacon does a lot to make up for that 1%.

[cj001f]

Having that beacon does a lot to make up for that 1%.
Bullshit. 20-30% of burials die from trauma alone.

Personal Locator Beacons may be useful - but help will still be a long ways off time wise if you've an injured victim. First Aid training and avy avoidance training are probably a better investment.

ot: Why CPR masks for the family unless you are planning to perform CPR on nonfamily members? Presumably you are already exposed to their ailments.

[Cornholio]

All I'm saying that if you make safety decisions based on your beacon's ability to save your bacon, I think you're looking at your decision making process incorrectly.

[spindrift]

ot: Why CPR masks for the family unless you are planning to perform CPR on nonfamily members? Presumably you are already exposed to their ailments.

Since you asked - I guess I wasn't clear...so everyone in the family will have one (at least) in their pack, just like all the other standard gear... The masks are pretty cheap and and weigh just about nothning - so after seeing a variety of reports of CPR "fun" they just struck me as a good idea...

[BFD]

the Mcmurdo site say's reception is usually in less than 90 minutes? Than your position is by GPS what maybe within 10'. Not very practicle specific to avalanche rescue. See them as usefull for getting help in an emergency if you have already rescued someone from an avalanche and they are injured. One of my partners carries one he also uses on his sailboat. I would think one would be enough. Even if the buried partner had it in their pack I couldn't see the need to activate till that person was found and assessed.

[Cornholio]

They're not designed for buried avy rescue, but could be useful for calling in the cavalry when the shit hits the fan, if you're in to that sort of thing.

The PLB is a slightly different concept than the EPIRB, too... make sure the rugged and extra-powerful EPIRB is always the primary beacon on an offshore-going boat!

[col_surfer]

Personally, I wouldn`t carry one, but it`s more a values thing with me. When I venture into the wilderness, I strive for a disconnection with the rest of the world, hence no radios, cell phones,etc. Severing those ties binds me more with the natural environment, knowing that I`d better pay attention to what`s around me. Avy beacons and walkie talkies are okay because they`re part of a contained, self-reliant group. Would Scott have survived Antarctica if PLBs had been around a century ago? Possibly, but better planning would have increased the odds greatly.

[Core Shot]

Personally, I wouldn`t carry one, but it`s more a values thing with me. When I venture into the wilderness, I strive for a disconnection with the rest of the world, hence no radios, cell phones,etc. Severing those ties binds me more with the natural environment, knowing that I`d better pay attention to what`s around me. Avy beacons and walkie talkies are okay because they`re part of a contained, self-reliant group. Would Scott have survived Antarctica if PLBs had been around a century ago? Possibly, but better planning would have increased the odds greatly.

Nice idea. But stupid.
I hope you feel pleasantly disconnected as you die of hypothermia after an unexpected injury.

A cell phone is an essential backcountry tool unless you know you will be far from any cell signal. Hell, you don't even need to have a service contract. Just bring any old phone and dial 0 or 911 or 411 and tell them its an emergency. They have to help you.

Having a cell phone turned off in your pack is hardly a tie to the rest of the world.
Its a life raft.
I suppose under your theory you would travel the oceans without a life raft since that would help you, "knowing that I`d better pay attention to what`s around me"

Which brings up a good point about PLBs.
The only place I would want or need one is deep in the wilderness where there are no modern cellular communications.

Its the same reason that EPIRB PLBs have been standard issue on every life raft on the ocean.

[col_surfer]

My friend, your values are far different than mine. We both seek enrichment from the mountains, but you`ve chosen to criticize my way, which says far more about how you live in judgement of me. Being connected with civilization at every moment filters out what drives my passion for adventure, which is not knowing what the outcome is, but still being able to manage risk and danger.

Quote from Reinhold Messner "And I will never carry a telephone or have a handset with me in the wilderness. To do so would mean destroying the sense of isolation and exposure that I seek. If I can call out, I am no longer on the edge." A Passion For Limits, from Voices From The Summit.

Like I said, it`s a personal values thing, not a THEORY. Btw, I would have a life raft with me, it`s like carrying a bivy sack in the mountains and doesn`t conflict with being self-reliant.

[Summit]

PLB?

Why don't you buy something usefull like a GPS and a Sat Phone. WAAAAAY more function and use.

[cj001f]

My friend, your values are far different than mine. We both seek enrichment from the mountains, but you`ve chosen to criticize my way, which says far more about how you live in judgement of me. Being connected with civilization at every moment filters out what drives my passion for adventure, which is not knowing what the outcome is, but still being able to manage risk and danger.
I used to agree with you. After a participating in a rather sketchy rescue and a climbing accident last year my opinion changed. I don't have enough confidence in my rescue capabilities to throw away the chance (it is only a chance) of outside help because of principles/few oz.

[Summit]

Better leave your beacon at home... those fucking SAR people might be able to use the signal to help me and my group... gotta be self reliant... principles yo :rolleyes:

more caution with a phone is like saying you drive faster with a seatbelt. You should drive like you have no seatbelt. You should ski like you have no beacon. You should tour like your cell phone is broken. Keep it off. You are disconnected.

When you go rock climbing do you dip your hands in bacon grease instead of chalk so that you can have a little more adventure?

[Summit]

ot: Why CPR masks for the family unless you are planning to perform CPR on nonfamily members? Presumably you are already exposed to their ailments.
Still sucks when they puke in your mouth

[Chowda]

I think you would have better quality of response if you send for help, made a cell call, whatever was possible. The signal from a PLB cannot describe the emergency so you may get a response from an agency, unqualified to help leading to a slower useful response time.

Would be useful in a situation where all but one rescuer is buried, etc.. and there is no cell reception. You could continue searching or aiding while help was on the way.

[Summit]

I think you would have better quality of response if you send for help, made a cell call, whatever was possible. The signal from a PLB cannot describe the emergency so you may get a response from an agency, unqualified to help leading to a slower useful response time.

Would be useful in a situation where all but one rescuer is buried, etc.. and there is no cell reception. You could continue searching or aiding while help was on the way.
... GPS + Sat Phone...

[Squatch]

aren't Sat. phones pretty expensive? upwards of $1000, with expensive service contracts?

Edit: I guess you don't need a service contract in an emergency.

[cj001f]

aren't Sat. phones pretty expensive? upwards of $1000, with expensive service contracts?
And they are heavy and not that reliable (dropped calls after a few minutes on some of the less powerful units) unless you get the even heavier more expensive more powerful models

[Summit]

On ebay you can get teghm for less than $400... they really arent that different than a PLB... a couple of minutes? Just need to give your coordinates and nature of emergency... redail if dropped after a couple minutes.

[LeeLau]

at the risk of stating the obvious- lots of places rent them - globalstar and iridum handsets seem to have good battery life and decent range even through cloud cover

[couloirman]

Ah yes, bumping year old threads.
My mom might be making me buy one of these, hope it works well. Looked at satellite phones and didnt wanna carry something that heavy around and pay for expensive service, seems like thisll be good enough, what do you think?

http://akamai.backcountrystore.com.edgesuite.net/images/items/large/ACR0004.jpg

"Description of ACR TerraFix 406 GPS I/O PLB - $75 Manufacture Rebate Good Thru 12/31/06:
You hope for the best on every trip into the wilderness, but you always plan for the worst. The ACR TerraFix 406 GPS I/O Personal Locator Beacon is the ultimate last resort in the backcountry. FCC-Approved, the TerraFix 406 GPS I/O uses an onboard GPS to fix your position, then transmits a distress signal that is detected by the 406 MHz COSPAS-SARSAT system. The signal is encoded with your unique identification number and GPS coordinates, so rescuers know who they're looking for and where the signal is coming from. The TerraFix also emits a 121.5 MHz homing signal that lets Search and Rescue teams get a fix on your precise position. The TerraFix is waterproof and floats for backcountry and nautical use. It is small and light enough to fit into a pocket or keep close at hand in the included holster. Now with a $75 rebate, the TerraFix is more affordable than ever.

Bottom Line: You will be found thanks to the ACR TerraFix"

[Free Range Lobster]

at the risk of stating the obvious- lots of places rent them - globalstar and iridum handsets seem to have good battery life and decent range even through cloud cover

heavy cloud cover and they both suck shit.
but enough to belt out a "help me!"


Bottom Line: You will be found thanks to the ACR TerraFix

Not a replacement for a beacon though.

[danhikeski]

The ACR TerraFix 406 GPS I/O PLB are pretty cool, but keep in mind that no matter the reason for pulling it, mistake or not, you are getting many people involved, and depending on location a helicopter as well, that the registered user must pay for. In dire needs, Aron Ralston type situations, it is the ONLY way to go, which I don't know anyone who would of been prepared for that. A few people with good beacon experience and a cell (with reception) is a cheaper and better alternative, with the obvious of location, time of year to consider

[couloirman]

The ACR TerraFix 406 GPS I/O PLB are pretty cool, but keep in mind that no matter the reason for pulling it, mistake or not, you are getting many people involved, and depending on location a helicopter as well, that the registered user must pay for. In dire needs, Aron Ralston type situations, it is the ONLY way to go, which I don't know anyone who would of been prepared for that. A few people with good beacon experience and a cell (with reception) is a cheaper and better alternative, with the obvious of location, time of year to consider



Lets first off consider this: if you are going to die if you dont get some help fast(i know, rescuers would not be there very fast depending on where you are), who on earth would consider about how much theyd have to pay to be saved?
second: fishing license, or a SAR membership should cover the fees should you need to be rescued, and SAR memberships cost next to nothing.
third: I go into the BC a lot by myself, and it would be nice to have some added security when no one else is around