Thoughts about the slide (before, during and after)

[AltaPowderDaze]

:nonono2: well this is a tough thread for me to write but i think it is necessary. as some of you may have figured out already, i was involved in the avalanche in mineral fork last thursday. it happened after a long day of touring (approx 8hrs) and was the result of improperly checking the snowpack. small 200lb cornices were dropped on this slope and others adjacent to it with no results. this probably lowered my guard but not entirely. we had observed a natural avalanche on a NE aspect that ran full track sometime during the previous 2 days. the aspect i was skiing was just slightly different, due east but the natural had already slipped my mind within 15 minutes. we noticed bomb holes on many of the slopes as we traveled up the ridge. we also took note of evidence of heavy windloading that occured during the prior storm. with the small cornice drops not producing results i figured that they must be beggining to stabilize. i still was not confident enough to center punch the line, especially when there was a very obvious rollover in the middle to the right of the path. here is a pic from december when wpg did control work to aid in the search for the missing snowshoers:

http://wowasatch.com/gallery/december%20slide%20cycle/slides/22-santiagos%201.jpg

the path (left) did not slide in this pic but you can see the rocks poking out thru the snow on the left of the pic. this is what creates the rollover.

i was looking at the arete (rock rib) to the lookers right as my safezone. i would put a slope cut in from near the middle of the slope to the arete. if nothing went, which is what i was expecting, i would parallel the arete down until i reached the apron. the slope had obviously been loaded on the right but i thought there would be less wind deposit on the arete and that the deposits would have settled by now with all the high pressure we had been getting. gramps wanted to take some time and drop a larger cornice but in the interest of time they continued on up the ridge to find a longer run. i stayed to take some photographs and watch them come down. i did not know that their slope angle would be less than mine as it seemed to just get steeper as the ridge went. in this situation the right thing to do would have been to rope up and dig a pit to see what we were dealing with or just go somewhere else that was safer by means of terrain. well, i took off my skis, took a break and got myself ready to snap some shots of gramps and trackhead as they descended to the flats. after that i visualized my line and my possible exit points if something did go wrong. by that i mean i also took note of where i did not want to be, namely near the rollover and shallow rock on the skiers right. i called ready to trackhead and he confirmed so i shouted dropping in 3,2,... and put a fast slope cut in. i was about 2/3 the way to the arete and 10-15' from the ridge when i heard and felt the slab shear. it took all of my momentum from me as i was preparing to commit to the line. i immediatly dropped to my stomach and tried to arrest on the bedsurface but the slab was so thick that i could not reach it with my whippet. at this point my 2 second window to get off had passed and i had to roll onto my back and start to backstroke as i accelerated faster than the slab. my first thought when i felt the slab break was "get off now". after i knew i couldn't i thought "oh my god it has me, i'm gonna ride this thing down". after i started moving quick i began thinking of how i had put my partners in an aweful position. i then saw the snow buckling in front of me and thought i was going under. i ditched my poles and began backstroking even more heavily. this whole time i am trying to stay on top i am also pushing myself left, both to get out of the slide and to stay away from the rocks and cliffs that may be uncovered by the slide. the snow is still flowing at about 30mph(?) while it buckles on the rocks and benches. i lose sight infront of me as the snow appears to overtake me like a surfer in a big wave but each time i swim hard come out on top. my thoughts are clear and lucid as the arete funnels the snow deeper in my direction. i think i may soon know what it is like to be buried alive. i concentrate on getting out and staying on top but in the back of my mind i think about when the snow comes to a stop. i know i need to swim hard, expand my lungs, clear an airway infront of my face and get an arm up in the air. these thoughts come all at once and quick but clear. a few seconds later i feel myself rising in the snow and i continue to backstroke to the side. i have cleared the arete and the debris in the track begins to fan out. at this point i realize that i have a real chance to get out. my skis have stayed on the whole time and i have been trying to edge my way over to the left but now it is working. i watch the snow continue down as stand up straight line down with no poles to my partners who were preparing to rescue me. my thoughts quickly turn to anger at myself for what i have done. i am extremely apologetic to my partners for the position i have put them in. nothing i can say at that point can explain the way i feel about what i have done to them.

we momentarily look back at the slide and take in the magnitude of the event. i snap one picture for reference and ask to get out of there:

http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic34835.jpg

the deposition pile was ~5-7' deep. likely SS-AS-R3.5-D3-O

link to bruce trempers investigation (http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/photos/Images04-05/Mineral_Fork_2-25-05/)

there was very little snowpack left under the bedsurface which i believe was the bedsurface from the big january slide cycle. extremely weak facets made up the weak layer with mostly windloading for a slab. the facets were the result of natural avalanches. these kept the snowpack thin and allowed the facets to flourish during the clear/cold nights since the temperature gradient would be steep.



the avy forecast was moderate (skier triggered avalanches possible on slopes steeper than 35*). avy forecast for 2-24-05 (http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/archive/2004-2005/2005-02-24_advisory.htm)


this is how i screwed up. i hope this helps to keep others from making similar mistakes.

[Trackhead]

Link to a brief video from the incident. I dropped the camcorder when I heard and saw it break. Too hard to spot your partners last seen point through a lens. As amazing as it would have been to be able to show this event with video!

I think the urgency in my voice will get the point across. I think Gramps and I simutaneously thought and said "Oh Shit!"

Avy Video (http://fritzrips.com/avy1.wmv)

[splat]

Good slide, helluva ride, apd. How do you think the backstroke worked? How far above you did it break? You say you accellerated ahead of the slab you were on when it broke? You went down as it was crumbling and that's when you went ahead of the slab you were on, before it picked up steam? And the reach with the whippet - you had to reach to plant it over the edge of the slab, thereby unable to reach the bed surface?

Good observations. And I know how you feel about endangering others. It's an honorable way to feel, but don't wring yourself out over it. Shit happens. I'm sure everyone learned there and here.

[splat]

Link to a brief video from the incident. I dropped the camcorder when I heard and saw it break. Too hard to spot your partners last seen point through a lens. As amazing as it would have been to be able to show this event with video!

I think the urgency in my voice will get the point across. I think Gramps and I simutaneously thought and said "Oh Shit!"

Avy Video (http://fritzrips.com/avy1.wmv)

Know what you mean, trackhead. Honc got caught in a slide in BC while I was shooting him and I had to drop my camera to keep an eye on his position.

Just watched the vid. You guys were right on top of things. Right fukking on!

[Trackhead]

Mistakes leading to incident.

East facing slope on similar aspect had slid huge: We all noted it, I was concerned about it, but we didn't communicate this concern amongst ourselves enough.

End of the day: I needed to get back to pick my brother up at the airport. Was in a bit of a hurry. Gramps wanted to rope cut a cornice on Seth's slope, I didn't want to 'waist' the time because I wasn't skiing it. Selfish? Perhaps. Gramps even wanted to dig a pit on the lower angle slope that we skied, I decided to ski cut it and call it good.

Too much confidence: Throughout the day, we skied steeper, higher elevation slopes of the same aspect with no instability. This slope in theory was safer. Lower angle, etc. But somehow, it got more windloading. It was also a repeater slide, which could have given it a better bed surface to slide on.

Communication breakdown: I felt confident in the slope that Gramps and I skied. But the one Seth skied didn't look right to me. In fact, that entire 1/4 mile of ridge was creeping me out.

Voice your concerns with your partners on every slope. I think it can help bring to the surface potential dangers.

Slow down, take your time. Cut that cornice, belay that ski cut, dig that pit.

[Trackhead]

APD seemed to disappear a couple times during his ride. He was on his left hip, seemingly in control of his body position at the top of the slab. Then he edged his way out after about half way down.

It seemed to take forever for the entire episode to finally end. I was laughing as APD skied down to us. Laughing with that "holy shit, he's lucky, everyone is ok" kind of laugh.

[SkiingBear]

Don't be too hard on yourself, so long as you've learned something from this there is nothing to be ashamed about. Similarly, it's great to see your concerns for your ski partners. Were they in a position to get caught, or were you sorry for them maybe having to look for you? I just finished the Exum Level II avy class tonight, and if there's one thing I learned in the class, even the experts can make mistakes. It sounds like you did a lot of things right too; you took the time to identify safe routes/zones, you stayed aware when you did get caught, and it sounds like you made a lot of good decisions when you did get cuaght (i.e. backstroking, dropping the poles when it bacame necessary, working towards the side of the slide). Good to hear that you're alright and still in one piece. Looking forward to making some turns with you sometime soon.

[snorkeldeep]

glad to hear you're alright. thanks for posting this type of experience and description here. it should be very helpful to those of us who haven't taken a ride, and put as eloquently as you did, is a resource for the entire community.

[AltaPowderDaze]

th, i totally understood the laugh. it is a release. you had to get all worked up to perform a rescue and then their is relief that you don't have to but you still have the adrenal rush. the laughter helps let it all out.

with regarde to the other slope that we skied, i think that if they had been bombed numerous times that we would have had a problem. it was my fault for not checking that slope thuroughly before hitting it. i could have roped up and dug a pit while i waited for you guys to climb but i didn't want to waste time and i wanted to be ready incase something happend on your slope.

splat, you are right on. when i dropped on my stomach to self arrest i had a 2-3' gap between me and the crown. my chest was on the slab and i tried to hook the bedsurface (3' down) with my whippet without letting it go. i don't ski with pole straps anywhere. infact, my straps were taped down until i had to do the rappel into the heart of darkness.

i'd say the slab was about 20% water or around 1 finger hardness. i was under the crown when it broke. i did feel like i just shot out ahead when the slab finally dinner plated enough for me to sink thru to the bedsurface. once that happend i had a ton of snow pushing me from the back. it just felt like i had more snow above me than before. it was likely due to the rock rib funneling snow back into me making it deeper. bruce said that he did see my ski arrests in the bedsurface at the top.

[Trackhead]

APD,

Do you think that slope was more prone than the slow-mow turns in the vid? Perhaps because it was a repeater and had a slicker bedsurface?

[AltaPowderDaze]

APD,

Do you think that slope was more prone than the slow-mow turns in the vid? Perhaps because it was a repeater and had a slicker bedsurface?


now that i know the slopes history i can say with near certainty that it was. i talked at length with bruce about this one and he is much more diplomatic about it than i am but basically from what i know now, wpg had effectivly ruined the skiing on that particular slope. any slab weight on it and it is ready to go. if you keep the snowpack thin enough with bombs all winter you are bound to grow huge amounts of well developed facets every cold/clear period.


edit to add that this doesn't absolve me from the responsibility from checking the slope first but i doubt it would have slid if it didn't slide in the january cycle and i don't think wpg help it out there either.

[AltaPowderDaze]

Were they in a position to get caught, or were you sorry for them maybe having to look for you?

i wouldn't have skied unless i though they were out of the alpha angle. i wasn't worried about any huge slide like the january cycles ran and thats what it would have taken to out run that alpha. i was only thinking of a 1-2' slab max with the windloading that we had.

basically i was worried about putting them in a rescue situation. you can't imagine how hard that is when you know the person under the snow. i have a video that runs in my head with a lot of footage that i'd rather never had seen. i don't want to put those things on anyone. it's just not right.

[gorms]

The video is chilling. Thanks for the honest post APD and TH. No matter where you are on the learning curve there is plenty of information and important reminders to be gleaned from this.

Kudos to all involved --after things got bad all parties seemed to react the right way. Hopefully enough was learned that it will prevent it from happening again.

Glad everyhting turned out the way it did

[gramps]

Those were a scary few seconds. I think APD and TH covered everything. The things that stand out in my mind as our mistakes are all group dynamic in nature:

1- We didn't communicate with any assertiveness what we were thinking. I tried to slow things down a little on the ridge, but all I said was "maybe we should..." just tossing a couple of ideas out there, and when nobody bit on them, I just let it go.

2 - The general tiredness. We had a home run ahead of us, we'd skiied the gnar earlier, we couldn't be bothered really thinking too hard about this last bowl.

3 - When TH and I got down, I saw for the first time that the line we had skiied was clearly safer than the one APD was about to drop into. I would have liked to discuss it with him, but we didn't have any means to communicate with him way up there, we could just barely make out shouts, no way to have a conversation - radios maybe?

[Summit]

Thank you for posting this.

[FRP]

^^^^^^what he said^^^^^

[tetonbob]

Excellent debrief. Thanks for the courage to post.

As others have said, don't be too hard on yourself. It happens, even when we take the necessary precautions.

That said, go with your gut. If it feels sketchy, that is enough to find another route.

"He who learns to turn away, lives to ski another day".

Peace.

BG, ski bum in temporary exile.

[skibe]

Man that is scary. Glad to hear your ok! This kind of story is what really scares me while Im in the process of getting geared up for the bc. I thought the first investment should be a beacon but after gaining more knowledge and exchanging some thoughts with xover it is obvious the first purchase is an AVY 1 course. Once again good to hear it worked out for you.

Now I know why TH chose the music he did for the day :eek: .

[Trackhead]

Man that is scary. Glad to hear your ok! This kind of story is what really scares me while Im in the process of getting geared up for the bc. I thought the first investment should be a beacon but after gaining more knowledge and exchanging some thoughts with xover it is obvious the first purchase is an AVY 1 course. Once again good to hear it worked out for you.

Now I know why TH chose the music he did for the day :eek: .

I chose that music before the tour started, but it had more meaning when the tour ended.

[Ireallyliketoski]

Glad everyone is ok, I hope that this is the last avy related story I have to read about with you guys. Be safe.

[Agent 00X]

thanks for sharing this APD and thanks for everyones contributions, I am learning a lot. glad no injuries or worse.

[SheRa]

... it is obvious the first purchase is an AVY 1 course.

Maybe a copy of Snow Sense would get your mind jump started.

Thanks so much for the awesome write-up on this, APD. Took me a couple of days to read it carefully. Very glad to hear you were able to keep your head together - make decisions and execute them while everything was going on. I hope I can do the same.

I am really impressed that you were able to backstroke successfully with your skis on. I can hardly imagine that working. But it did. I wonder if I'd be able to manage it or just wear myself out trying. How tough was that physically?

[AltaPowderDaze]

I am really impressed that you were able to backstroke successfully with your skis on. I can hardly imagine that working. But it did. I wonder if I'd be able to manage it or just wear myself out trying. How tough was that physically?


it wasn't effortless by any means but it seemed to work so i kept at it. i was concetrating more on moving myself to the side of the path when i was up higher in the debris. that is how i got out. while in the slide and after i wondered if i had some help.



i have received a pm from a confused person so to clarify for others:

i have only been caught in one avalanche, this one. i have only been involved in one other avalanche where someone else was caught. please don't thow these incidents back in my face to make your point, especially when they aren't relative to the conversation at hand.

[Trackhead]

Very glad to hear you were able to keep your head together - make decisions and execute them while everything was going on. I hope I can do the same.


Hopefully you will never have to 'do the same'.

APD, I was suprised how 'in control' you looked in the face of mother nature's wrath. It was a bit uncanny, seeing you on your left hip, essentially in the same position the entire way down. Then miraculously exiting left.

[Shredhead]

1- We didn't communicate with any assertiveness what we were thinking. I tried to slow things down a little on the ridge, but all I said was "maybe we should..." just tossing a couple of ideas out there, and when nobody bit on them, I just let it go.

3 - When TH and I got down, I saw for the first time that the line we had skiied was clearly safer than the one APD was about to drop into. I would have liked to discuss it with him, but we didn't have any means to communicate with him way up there, we could just barely make out shouts, no way to have a conversation - radios maybe?



Thanks for the post. I hope we can all learn something from these posts.
Something I have learned in the past, but can never be reinforced enough.

The ability to communicate clearly and concisely with all members of your group is of paramount importance.

[Frozone]

As always APD. very educational thread, thanks for taking the time to post it. More importantly I'm glad you're safe and that Gramps and TH were able to watch you ski out rather than perform a rescue.

I think an interesting point to consider was how hard Gramps or TH (not sure which) was breathing at the end of TH's clip. Sounded like he'd just topped a ridge, not like someone taking a video. I'm sitting here contemplating all of that adreneline from simply watching you get caught and then thinking about how challenging it must be to keep it together during a real life rescue. Very sobering...

[gramps]

I think an interesting point to consider was how hard Gramps or TH (not sure which) was breathing at the end of TH's clip. Sounded like he'd just topped a ridge, not like someone taking a video. I'm sitting here contemplating all of that adreneline from simply watching you get caught and then thinking about how challenging it must be to keep it together during a real life rescue. Very sobering...

Heh, TH was the heavy breather, but we were both pretty juiced up by the time it was over.

[Chaka]

holy shite. glad everyone is healthy. The information the three of you provided is invaluable in educating others such as myself. Thanks very much for pouring out a difficult experience for the benefit of others.

[splat]

i have received a pm from a confused person so to clarify for others:

i have only been caught in one avalanche, this one. i have only been involved in one other avalanche where someone else was caught. please don't thow these incidents back in my face to make your point, especially when they aren't relative to the conversation at hand.

You gotta be kidding? Someone giving you grief?

To That Confused Person:
This media, combined with footage and a first person account from someone relaying a lot of recently gleaned info he has labored to learn on his own, coupled with the input of a pro like Tremper is about as educationl as it gets and reaches a lot of people. Unless you feel you can contribute something more than 'don't go', don't criticize.

[AltaPowderDaze]

splat, it wasn't that. it was more along the lines of me being hypocritical by speaking to how some slednecks will gang bang an avy path with a camera in the runout and no resources left for rescue. the person said that i was in the same boat because i had been in several large avalanches and broke travel protocol. i replied that in my incidents only 1 person was on the slope at a time. he later added something about being sorry if this was harsh. yeah, it sounded real heart felt. use the same breath.

to those who may have read the thread, it was not slippy. he was very diplomatic and even put up with me being tactless. thanks for that.

[ScottG]

What about the concept of splitting up and taking very different lines??

Curious if this is bad protocol or something you regret.
If you had been buried, it may have taken a long time for your rescuers to walk from the safe zone to your burial uphill, hearts beating, under stress, at altitude.
Plus, they're more exhausted when they arrive to start digging.
Skiing down bed surface is faster.

Not a slam- just a question.

Thanks for sharing - we all need to learn more.
Glad you are OK.

P.S. - I know the 3rd skier on the same line can trigger a slide, but the first is usually more likely and risky. Someone always has to bat clean-up, but should they be taking a totally different line?

[Trackhead]

What about the concept of splitting up and taking very different lines??

Curious if this is bad protocol or something you regret.
If you had been buried, it may have taken a long time for your rescuers to walk from the safe zone to your burial uphill, hearts beating, under stress, at altitude.
Plus, they're more exhausted when they arrive to start digging.
Skiing down bed surface is faster.

Not a slam- just a question.

Thanks for sharing - we all need to learn more.
Glad you are OK.

P.S. - I know the 3rd skier on the same line can trigger a slide, but the first is usually more likely and risky. Someone always has to bat clean-up, but should they be taking a totally different line?


Scott,

Gramps and I skied a different line, found a safe spot and watched APD. Your points are valid and I feel you answered your own question. In the best case scenario, all should ski the same aspect, line, etc. Your exactly right IMO.

I'm not sure exactly why the group split up. I know I didn't feel comfortable with the steeper line that APD was on, and when Gramps suggested continuing up the ridge to another lower angle line, I was relieved.

Our biggest mistake was not communicating, me wanting to get back quick to pick up my bro at the airport. And skiing this aspect all day without consequence.

[Trackhead]

I don't know how the sound is on the internet resolution of this video? But if you turn your speakers all the way up at the beginning, you will here a creapy groan, that is me yelling OK to APD in slow motion. Then, just as the fracture breaks, you can here two audible cracks. Wonder if that is the actual fracture of the slide?

[AltaPowderDaze]

I'm not sure exactly why the group split up. I know I didn't feel comfortable with the steeper line that APD was on, and when Gramps suggested continuing up the ridge to another lower angle line, I was relieved.


gramps actually went up the ridge to find a longer line and was suprised that it was less steep. i wanted the shortest way down at that point and we could see that the ridge was only getting steeper as we continued. oddly enough i think i found almost the steepest line on that ridge.

[cololi]

This whole thread is a great resource for analyzing bc travel. I applaude you guys for being so honest. I know I have learned something from it. Thanks again. Also, very glad that everyone walked away from this one. I am sure you guys were familiar withthe slope, was there any sort of odd feeling felt by anyone, nowing that the slope had claimed the lives of 2 people this year and has a long history of sliding? It has been a few days since I read this thread, so my apoligies if I missed something or can't remember. Also, If I recall correctly APD, fatigue was a factor in the other incredibly unfortunate incident you were involved with this year. I was hoping you could elaborate a little, was it a mental fatigue or a physical fatigue from either going on a longer tour than expected or altering you travel plans. Thanks for any response and please don't take it the wrong way, justtrying to get more first hand experiences.

[lemon boy]

I have a couple of questions for you guys (mostly for APD), please don't take any of them as rocks being chucked they aren't. I've watched the vid a few times and read the account a couple as well...

1. How much do you attribute dropping the cornice to setting off the avy? It appears that the peak in the crown is right at the point of impact and the slab appears to fail exactly along the skicut from there.

2. At approximately second 11 there is an obvious pole plant and unweighting. Is this caused by the slab failing or is it this:

it took all of my momentum from me as i was preparing to commit to the line
?????????????????

I think it is opt. B (in quotes).
Comments later...maybe.

[AltaPowderDaze]

cololi and lemon, i'm not entirely sure which was the culprit here. we had finished our goals for the day and were set to do some drainage skiing (not particularly stimulating) back to the bcc road. i had thought about roping up and digging a pit while th and gramps climbed on but i was starting to bonk and pulled out the rest of my trail mix instead. after i finished that i got my gear ready and took some snap shots of th/gramps skiing down. when it was my turn to go i got a final thought about the what if, just as i was calling ready but i still felt that my line on the left was solid. i was just less sure about what was on my right. i dropped in both for speed and impact. i wanted to make sure there was no way that something above me could release once i was below. i dropped in and 45ed over toward the subridge with the intent of commiting if nothing felt wrong. i did not even feel a collapse when it went, just the shear of the slab. i had begun to turn down the fall line when it went. i believe that i rode my previously unweighted downhill ski off balance once the slab moved. this may have been another reason that i lost all my momentum but i'm not sure that i could have skied off this thing if i hadn't turned. imo, it released quick and moved quick kinda like someone pulled a rug out from under me. trackhead should be able to use his video counter to find out how long it took but i'd guess 20 seconds seems right. i don't recall any powder cloud but i was only looking right infront of me to stay afloat. th and gramps could describe how the whole thing looked better than i could.

no offense taken in either question. the reason it is up here is to learn, so i thank you for the questions.

[AltaPowderDaze]

This whole thread is a great resource for analyzing bc travel. I applaude you guys for being so honest. I know I have learned something from it. Thanks again. Also, very glad that everyone walked away from this one. I am sure you guys were familiar withthe slope, was there any sort of odd feeling felt by anyone, nowing that the slope had claimed the lives of 2 people this year and has a long history of sliding?

that was actually my first time back there and as wra pointed out to me in a pm, you can't really tell exactly where you're at when you popup on that ridge. the thought of the snowshoers didn't occur to me while i was up there. i really only knew which way was down in this particular part of the drainage.


APD, fatigue was a factor in the other incredibly unfortunate incident you were involved with this year. I was hoping you could elaborate a little, was it a mental fatigue or a physical fatigue from either going on a longer tour than expected or altering you travel plans.

there were different factors involved in the two incidents. at twin lakes, we were so tired that we actually had trouble skiing down. that rarely has happend to either of us. usually it takes resort skiing to accomplish that, which i had done for a few hours prior to touring. basically physical fatigue affects you mentally. we made poor decisions based on time and not properly evaluating the slope above us. i know i had forgot the exposure that would be above us. we went around a few slide paths just to get where we were and i though the danger had passed until i saw where zach was traversing.

we both altered our plans (several times) and stayed out much longer than expected.


in mineral i was still aware that things could slide. it was about picking a safe way down the a slope (micro routefinding) that had stabilized. gramps and th did that. i chose the wrong one and did not effectivly test it before commiting. by that i mean i should have dug a pit or dropped a much larger cornice. i think the small cornices that were dropped may have lowered my initial suspicion of the slopes.

[gonzo]

to repeat the others, thanks for posting this guys.

something that came to mind when i watched the video and others have kind of mentioned: at the end of the film you pan out and you (TH and Gramps) are a pretty good distance away - maybe 150 - 200 yards and significantly downhill (but such is life i guess with the last one to go)...in hindsight would you have positioned yourselves differently?

[gramps]

Part of the reason I continued up the ridge was just cause I wanted a longer shot, but part of it was because the lines off the ridge where APD stopped looked steep as hell to me, even from the top, and I was looking for greener pastures in general. But me avoiding the steeps wasn't even a conscious decision at the time, just a reflex to seeing a slide path like that, that I knew we weren't going to take the time to properly analyze.

I'm not a fan of small cornice drops. I knew the fact they didn't set anything off didn't tell us shit about the stability, but again, I wasn't communicating. Yeah, if that little cornice was to set off a slide, it would tell you something for sure. But really, things just weren't that sensitive that day and we all knew that.

[lemon boy]

gramps to clarify if I was unclear: when I asked about dropping the cornice I was refering to jumping off of it.

Comments:

I don't bc as much as I could or should or did and do not consider myself more than conversant. Also noting for the record that I doubt there would be a midwinter day here in CO where I'd ski something that looked like that. Also again, I'm not chucking rocks.

On the occasions when I perform a ski cut, I do it a lot differently and while it definitionally "ruins" the initial aestetics of the line (especially for the ski cutter) it also exposes one considerably less. Basically, FMM a ski cut is always completed from safe a) to "safe" b) and involves loading up the slope as much as possible but also regardless going from a to b and includes a full stop at b (and maybe another cut).

[monday morning QB]To my eye it looks like had you done a true a to b slope cut and had that as your plan (btw- I think in this context dropping off the cornice is appropriate) your chance of skiing off the slab would have been considerably higher. You would've potentially been able to simply turn off. As it appears, not only was your attention on the rest of the run but your weight never (at least in the clip) gets back to a point where you could effectively use your skis for anything other than that right turn into it... That was the thing that jumped out at me immediately when I viewed the clip was "damn, if he'd been "on" that right ski it would've been a no brainer... And it means you were committed to the line before any ski cut results could be known.

I only bring it up as it hasn't been discussed and not to supplant any of the other factors contributing to the accident (recognizing that you still would have set off the slide and also recognizing that the investigation crew set off further left hangfire). This is IMO another little contributory protocol breakdown.

For me at least this one echos Roman's slide in wolverine (at least a bit) with ski cuts and cornice drops (knowing that it was slope cuts and then a cornice drop that set off the avy there)[/MMQB]

Did I qualify all that enough? Again, I don't want to be offensive.

[AltaPowderDaze]

lemon, that's what i've been saying. i didn't properly test the slope. i didn't center punch it but when nothing went when i dropped in and i felt nothing in the first 10-15' i began to commit. after looking at trempers pictures, it would have been very hard to reach a safe spot on that ridge wihtout pulling more out above me. fyi, this line is very similar to what you might find in colorado. it was a thin snowpack with depth hoar and facets abundant. had i known that, like you, i never would have skied it. for the record, nothing about this was proper and i don't think i've claimed that but i don't mind anyone pointing out the flaws. that's how we learn.

[lemon boy]

And just think, if you hadn't a pussed out and gone for the gully you could've skied that ohhhh so tempting rib (that funneled snow back onto you). :) Prolly woulda had a funner day and we wouldn't all be here either ;) :D :p:

[Trackhead]

APD, I was looking at the 'before' mineral photo with all the blast holes, and the shot of the discussed avy here.

It does indeed look like there is a faint bomb blast reminant just skiers right of your line.

Do you see it?

[greg]

thanks for this thread.

I've learned one thing about mountaineering: there is no such thing as absolute safety. and when it comes to avy danger this counts in particular. save slopes simply do not exist. there are just safer and less save slopes. so in my oppinion responsible mountaineering is not about safety - otherwise one would have to stay at home - but is about knowing what risk you are going to take and to conciously decide, if it (in my case - personal experiences) is worth for you to take that risk. or to put it in other words, I weigh the gains against the possible losses. unemotionally, I'ld call this riskmanagement.

I personally have the impression, that you kind of knew what risk you were about to take and still took it. If you took it conciously, then everything is fine.
If you didn't, it probably happened due to circumstances of the following kind (some of them were already mentioned): groupdynamics (of course, I have no clue, but normally, the less people are around you, the less save one feels...so at first sight that reason doesn't make a lot of sense), fatigue, fear...

I'm probably simply projecting my personal experiences on you - but thinking this way helped me to analyze my mistakes and it hopefully objectifies my decisiontaking in future.

glad you're fine and you're as always sharing your knowledge and experiences in such a straightforward manner. :)

[ak_powder_monkey]

Glad you guys didn't have to actully use your beacons that is one scary vid. Glad you posted I learned something and you learned something, thats what this forum is for right?

[Sphinx]

Amazing that you managed to stay in the same orientation and relative control during the entire ride.

That video made my knees shake. Very glad everybody's all right.

[AltaPowderDaze]

The question is - did you feel at any time that your skis were pulling you under - or were they keeping you afloat? I've often thought that if I can keep my skis under me, they can be a life raft. But if I couldn't, I'd roll to get them to release. Since you've experienced this, thought?

i almost went under a few times but i'm not sure i can attribute that to the skis. i was glad they stayed on in this case but had it been a more violent tumbling i'd have been in trouble. i also think that if i had made it past the track and gotten down to the deposition zone that i'd been pulled down by my skis. if you want to roll to drop the skis you'd better do it early in the slide. after it gets moving it is anyones guess as to what will happen.

i don't know about trying to roll in it but that would depend on the depth of the slab and its hardness. i wouldn't want to do it on a deep soft slab but most deep slabs are approaching 20-30% H2O content and atleast 1 finger hard.


low din settings will help you drop your skis. i keep mine high just because i am often exposed above cliffs and other no fall zones where i need the skis at all costs. if you are just pow skiing then you can go with the din chart's recommendation.