Praxis Freeride vs. ON3P Vicik

[dynamike]

Same dimensions, same price. Resort use only. Zero opportunity to demo either. Crud busting and speed stability are most important. Which one?

[capulin overdrive]

Vicik will work just fine, and does suprisingly well in powder for it's width.

[Gman]

call the companies and ask and see what they say!

[Driver]

dynamike - i'm strongly considering the freerides and don't see the Vicik as a perfect substitute. The shape and flex concept seems more "directional" on the freeride and the tail is different. Also, size and flex options are very different. My vote without yet having ski'ed either is freeride on your chosen parameters of crud busting / stability. This is based on shape, flex, and size (both length and slightly more underfoot).

[PhiberAwptik]

dynamike - i'm strongly considering the freerides and don't see the Vicik as a perfect substitute. The shape and flex concept seems more "directional" on the freeride and the tail is different. Also, size and flex options are very different. My vote without yet having ski'ed either is freeride on your chosen parameters of crud busting / stability. This is based on shape, flex, and size (both length and slightly more underfoot).

Kind of scratching my head trying to make sense of most of what you said. Don't see how you come to any of those conclusions. I would say it's pretty much a wash in the mid 180 department and would boil down to what you are looking for in construction materials, and who you want to give your money to. Both are rad companies.

[dynamike]

Going with Praxis, primarily because of the core material. I just have no experience with bamboo.
Talked to Keith, and Rowen at ON3P, both great to deal with. Their pricing is fantastic, top notch construction and it's nice talking to the guy(s) that own the company.
Support your independent ski builder!

[DJ2]

Haven't skied the Vicik but can vouch that the performance and build of the Freeride are first class.

[auvgeek]

would boil down to what you are looking for in construction materials This.

I think that Praxis skis and ON3P skis have a distinctly different feel. Personally, I like the dampness and heft of ON3P for crud-busting and speed stability. Both are bomber skis with excellent construction, but I just really like the heft and stiffness of the ON3P skis I've been on. But now that Praxis is offering all skis in a "stiff" version, I'm really curious to try that option (particularly in the 196 Protest).

[Driver]

Kind of scratching my head trying to make sense of most of what you said. Don't see how you come to any of those conclusions.


Let's review those conclusions. My first conclusion is on the shape of the ski. All you have to do is look at the ski to realize the freeride is more directionally shaped. Add to that camber and tip rocker shape and height. If you can't see it, I can't help you. My second conclusions is that the tail is different between the two skis, which they are, although the difference may be small. My third conclusions is that the size and flex options are different... and, again, they are. One more to add that others already have is that construction materials (including carbon option) and build are different. I'm not saying which one is better, just making objective observations which should not be controversial.

Bottome line, these skis to me are not simple substitutes as has been suggested. Just because two skis have relatively similar waist, sidecut, tip, tail width stats doesn't mean they are the same. My guess is these two skis end up riding quite differently.

[PhiberAwptik]

Let's review those conclusions. My first conclusion is on the shape of the ski. All you have to do is look at the ski to realize the freeride is more directionally shaped. Add to that camber and tip rocker shape and height. If you can't see it, I can't help you. My second conclusions is that the tail is different between the two skis, which they are, although the difference may be small. My third conclusions is that the size and flex options are different... and, again, they are. One more to add that others already have is that construction materials (including carbon option) and build are different. I'm not saying which one is better, just making objective observations which should not be controversial.

Bottome line, these skis to me are not simple substitutes as has been suggested. Just because two skis have relatively similar waist, sidecut, tip, tail width stats doesn't mean they are the same. My guess is these two skis end up riding quite differently.

Clearly, but obviously you have not looked at the numbers as it relates to tip and tail splay for these ski's. Saying one is more directional than the other makes you look dumb.

[Driver]

I will conceded that both are fairly directional, though one has a sidecut shape that looks more so- aka the boot center looks farther aft and less twin shaped with more of a square tail. My original point stands based on all of the above even if you think they are on equal ends of the twin / directional spectrum. The thread is based on these being the same ski but I don't quite see it that way, though clearly in the same wheelhouse if you are OK on the mid 180 length and a softer flex.

[iggyskier]

186cm Vicik vs. 184cm Freeride
Base Length - 188cm vs 184cm
Sidecut - 136/106/126 vs 135/107/125
Effective Edge - 155cm vs 150cm
Radius - 26m vs 24m
Tip Splay - 29.5cm vs 30cm
Tip Height - 7cm vs 6.5cm
Tail Splay - 20.5 cm vs 15cm
Tail Height - 2.2cm vs 2cm
Tip Taper - 20cm vs 22cm
Tail Taper - 13cm vs 12cm
Boot Center - 9.5cm vs 9cm

Skis look pretty similar to me. If anything, the Vicik might be a bit more directional - slightly further back mount, slightly larger radius, slightly longer length & effective edge. But really splitting hairs. I bet if you liked one you would like the other.

[D(C)]

Both of said skis are definitely on my to try list...

[Driver]

Both of said skis are definitely on my to try list...

Indeed - I like this geometry for the mid-quiver driver though its a bit skinnier than what a lot of people seem to be riding as their everyday ski now. Both Praxis and ON3P making bad ass boards.

[adrenalated]

I have skied both, and felt that the Freeride is slightly less turny, less hooky, and felt like it has a further back mounting point, regardless of what the numbers say. They are both excellent skis and blow most every other ski in this class out of the water in every way. My comments about the slightly more hooky, turny feel of the Vicik could very easily just be the tune on the demo pair that I tried. The Freeride I skied is my pair that I tune myself.

[MJbumper1121]

I have the 186 2010/2011 Viciks. They have bomber construction, bust through crud like a champ, and I have yet to find their speed limit. They also perform damn well for a narrower ski in powder conditions. I would say you will be hardpressed to find anyone who says differently, regarding their stability at speed and crud busting qualities. My 2 cents

[adrenalated]

I have skied both, and felt that the Freeride is slightly less turny, less hooky, and felt like it has a further back mounting point, regardless of what the numbers say. They are both excellent skis and blow most every other ski in this class out of the water in every way. My comments about the slightly more hooky, turny feel of the Vicik could very easily just be the tune on the demo pair that I tried. The Freeride I skied is my pair that I tune myself.

Scott just gave me a heads up that they actually moved the mount point (and the sidecut and core profile) back 2cm from the demo pair that I skied. So, with that change, I would say that the Praxis Freeride and ON3P Vicik ski EXTREMELY similarly. I don't think anyone looking for a ski in this category could go wrong with either.

[fat yeti]

I think you can't lose, If I get another pair of skis this season it will be the Freeride, or the Vick

[Dkla52]

Do you remember where your bindings were mounted? (How many cm off the dead center of the skis?)
I have skied both, and felt that the Freeride is slightly less turny, less hooky, and felt like it has a further back mounting point, regardless of what the numbers say. They are both excellent skis and blow most every other ski in this class out of the water in every way. My comments about the slightly more hooky, turny feel of the Vicik could very easily just be the tune on the demo pair that I tried. The Freeride I skied is my pair that I tune myself.

[dynamike]

To chime in, I mounted my Freerides on the line. I can't say enough about this ski.

[toast2266]

Since this thread got bumped...

Can anyone compare either of these skis (freeride or vicik) to a Dynastar XXL? I've got a pretty good handle on how the differences in sidecut and rocker profiles will play out on snow, but do either of these have that supreme dampness of the XXL's? Are they stiffer or less stiff (assuming stock med/stiff flex on the freerides)? I'm still leery of an inbounds ski in this category that doesn't have metal in it.

[critical-motion]

Viciks are very damp for their weight, but there is no way a Vicik is as damp as the XXLs which are probably 400-500g heavier PER SKI. I can say from experience that the regular LP (09/10, 100mm waist) is about the same dampness as a Vicik, but the Vicik has a greater speed limit due to the rockered tip and tail, and is a heck of a lot more fun to ski because the bamboo cores are very lively.

Although they are slightly wider, Wrenegades might compare better to XXLs in terms of dampness and crud-busting ability; that is what they were designed for.

[XavierD]

It's been a while since I was on my XXLs, but with 186 10/11 Viciks, I don't miss them much. I'd say equally as damp, Vicik floats much better in any softer snow, but lacks the 'tip-glued-to-the-snow' feel of the XXL in chopped up snow.

If the XXL has been your ski of choice, I'd look at the Wrenegade over the Vicik.

[toast2266]

cool, good info guys. It's that "tip glued to the snow" that I both love and hate about the XXL's. Sooo good through chop, but turns into "tips glued to the bottom" in deep snow.

[D(C)]

Toast, the ski you want is a Rossi RC 112 if you can find a pair in decent shape. They're the closest ski I've tried to a rockered XXL. The flex is a bit stiffer but the tip rocker compensates to make them maneuverable.

[toast2266]

Yeah - it's the finding a pair in decent shape that's the tricky part (unless I wanted a 178, which I don't). I'm also curious about the Blizzard Cochise, but the lack of any camber has me a little skeptical.

/drift

[Dkla52]

Are the Viciks quick to get edge to edge? I heard that these skis compare favorably to Mantra in terms of carving ability but obviously the quality of ON3P skis and their performance is in a whole different category than Volkl Mantra. Do the Viciks favor carving or slarving? Or did they do both just as well equally.

Viciks are very damp for their weight, but there is no way a Vicik is as damp as the XXLs which are probably 400-500g heavier PER SKI. I can say from experience that the regular LP (09/10, 100mm waist) is about the same dampness as a Vicik, but the Vicik has a greater speed limit due to the rockered tip and tail, and is a heck of a lot more fun to ski because the bamboo cores are very lively.

Although they are slightly wider, Wrenegades might compare better to XXLs in terms of dampness and crud-busting ability; that is what they were designed for.

[pisteoff]

@ Dkla52 this what I thought about the Viciks toward the end of the 2010/11 season.


Originally Posted by me

Size: 186 cm w/ Dukes on the line. Skied with alpine race boots and AT boots. Before mounting, mine tipped the scales at just over 10 lbs for the pair.

First impression: Quality. They seem very well constructed with close attention to detail. They came tuned and waxed, and for reference, I haven’t done any de-tuning at all. The edges are factory sharp full length.

General characteristics:

The flex is stiff, but not uber-stiff. Going from memory, I’d say stiffer than a Gotama, and maybe the Mantra too, but not as stiff as the original Legend Pro or Monster 103, and just a little softer than my AK made stiff Bros because the flex is more even/rounder. They have a similar feel to those skis (except the goat) in that they ski like fat GS race skis preferring med to large radius turns, and speed. That’s not to say that you can’t make short turns on them, but if that’s what you’re into, I’d look elsewhere.

On the damp/lively scale I’d put them right in the middle. Not as damp as a ski with metal, but not as lively as a lightweight full carbon lay-up. In this case, middle of the road is good. Damp enough to be a crud buster without feeling dead or planky.

As for skiing long/short; loose/locked, I’d say they ski on the long side and have a pretty locked-in (traditional) feel. The tip rocker works for steam-rollering everything in their path, but isn’t as pronounced as say the S7, or JJ, and with it’s flat tail, the Vicik is more charger than playful.

Powder:

Predictable. They float about the same as any 105ish ski. At low speed, they ride low and feel locked-in. Step on the gas and they rise up and loosen up, but never to the point of being smeary (like a full rocker). They always track. An analogy would be taking a corner in a car and having the rear wheels slide out just a little vs. a full-on four wheel drift.

As for the sidecut, I’d call it turny, but not hooky. Since this is something that has come up a fair bit with these skis, I’ll mention that the way I define ‘hooky’ is when a ski’s sidecut hooks-up pulling the ski across the fall-line when you don’t want it to. (The hookiest 100ish ski I‘ve ever owned was the Prophet 100. The Vicik is nothing like that.) Straightlining on the Vicik is easy, whereas a hooky ski really doesn’t want to go straight.

Chopped up / tracked out pow:

This where the Vicik really shines. As long as the ski is on edge, it will slice unwaveringly through tracks, ruts, and snow drifts. Initially, I was worried that the shape of the tip might deflect or pull the ski off line in variable snow, but that isn’t the case. Scott mentioned in another thread that next years tip will be more of a tapered, bullet nose shape, which might be an improvement, but isn’t necessary IMO.

Cascade cement and crud:

We get a lot of heavy snow here, and it does rain every now and again throughout the season, so an everyday ski here needs to be stiff enough to power through heavy glop. The Vicik is plenty stiff enough, and the sidecut is just enough to make turns at lower speeds, but not so much that you can’t go fast either.

Trees, tight spots, billy-goating:

If the trees are spaced widely enough to carry some speed, and the snow is soft, these are super fun. When the trees tighten up and/or the snow is hard, I’d rather be on a looser, more pivoty ski. I said it before, but it bears repeating here - they love to track like a GS ski, and don’t want to pivot/skid/slarve unless the snow is deep and light. The effective edge is the same as a 191 Wren, and in tight spots it shows.

Groomed:

Even though it has very little camber, the Vicik still feels pretty locked-in. Carving med-to-long turns is a piece of cake. Skidding the tails around, however, is work. If they have a speed limit, I’m not man enough to find it. Fun for mach-ing, not as much for bum-wiggling.

Bumps:

We haven’t really had bumps much this spring . Whenever they started to form, they’d get filled back in within a couple days, so I can’t really comment, other that to say that any stiff, 105ish, flat tailed ski isn’t designed for bumps. If you’re skiing bumps to get back to the lift, then sure, you’ll get through them. But if you’re actually looking for bumps, this probably isn’t your ski. That said, small soft bumps are a blast on these things - especially if you like to launch off every third or fourth one.

I left out ice, because we don’t really see the type of ice that you’d see in the east. From the few times I’ve encountered ice, I’ll just say that this ski has a soft snow bias.

So to sum it up, I’ll say that when ON3P says that the Vicik is a skinnier Wren, (i.e. an everyday PNW charger) they aren’t lying. Best suited for med and long turns, speed, straight lines, open spaces, pow, and crud.


Re-reading that I wouldn't change a thing. I'll add that they make a great travel ski, where conditions are unknown. You could spend the day skiing pow or carving groomers, and not be wishing for something else.

[XavierD]

Yeah - it's the finding a pair in decent shape that's the tricky part (unless I wanted a 178, which I don't). I'm also curious about the Blizzard Cochise, but the lack of any camber has me a little skeptical.

/drift

You don't want the Cochise. Great ski, but you can not really 'drive' it into a turn. There are a couple of guys in the shop (myself included) that are former Dynastar effectionados that are not fully satisfied with the Bodacious/Cochise as Big Dump/XXL replacements.
They are stable, and quick, but not drivable.

I would limmit your short list to the following
ON3P Wrenegade
Rossignol RC112
Volkl Katana (older model)

RC112 is probably the best bet if you can find a pair.

[D(C)]

You don't want the Cochise. Great ski, but you can not really 'drive' it into a turn. There are a couple of guys in the shop (myself included) that are former Dynastar effectionados that are not fully satisfied with the Bodacious/Cochise as Big Dump/XXL replacements.
They are stable, and quick, but not drivable.

I would limmit your short list to the following
ON3P Wrenegade
Rossignol RC112
Volkl Katana (older model)

RC112 is probably the best bet if you can find a pair.

I'd add 2nd gen Moment Garbones as well (112 waist). No metal but nice and stiff and damp, similar in shape to the RC 112 but a bit more compliant.

[Dkla52]

@ Dkla52 this what I thought about the Viciks toward the end of the 2010/11 season.



Re-reading that I wouldn't change a thing. I'll add that they make a great travel ski, where conditions are unknown. You could spend the day skiing pow or carving groomers, and not be wishing for something else.
Thanks a lot man. Did you also ski the Vicik mounted with dukes? reason why I'm asking is bc mounting the Dukes does usually make the ski a bit stiffer and thus might make the skis more work to turn

[XavierD]

I can't comment on those, I have not skied any moments yet. I have however been turned away by the lack of quality control I've seen from their factory (older models might be different).

Other people seem to love them though.

[critical-motion]

I have 12/13 Viciks with PX12s, flex feels medium-stiff and is very round, but stout underfoot. I agree that they are a good ski to take on trips because they are never the "wrong skis." My wife has Viciks mounted with Barons and they don't seem to change the flex at all as the heel piece slides a bit on the heel plate when the ski flexes.

They carve AND slarve on groomers, it all depends on how much angulation you give them. Tip them way over and the tip and tail engage to make a nice carve, but keep em relatively flat and the rocker keeps the tip and tail loose for slarving. I think this is the intended effect of their dual-radius sidecut.

[Dkla52]

Also I think - I'm not sure I could be wrong - the Viciks were a made a bit more round flex (a bit less stiff) in the 2011/2012 model compared to the 2010/2011. Again, I could be wrong but I think I read somewhere that was from an older thread that was reviewing the 10/11 model in which it was mentioned that next year they would be made a bit softer

[Dkla52]

Thanks. I know for a fact the 12/13 have a more round flex and are less stiff than the 11/12 Viciks. I talked to Kib at ON3P and that's what he said. What I'm absorbing from all of this is that these skis will carve nicely and is very stable for an aggressive skier in steep terrain; and making quick turns (with having side cut radius of 26 in mind) at lower speeds (lets say for the lack of better word, in blue runs) is possible by keeping the base relatively flat and start slarving back and forth given the low height camber (i think is 3mm) and the tip rocker. If they do all that, I think they are the ski that I've been looking for.

I have 12/13 Viciks with PX12s, flex feels medium-stiff and is very round, but stout underfoot. I agree that they are a good ski to take on trips because they are never the "wrong skis." My wife has Viciks mounted with Barons and they don't seem to change the flex at all as the heel piece slides a bit on the heel plate when the ski flexes.

They carve AND slarve on groomers, it all depends on how much angulation you give them. Tip them way over and the tip and tail engage to make a nice carve, but keep em relatively flat and the rocker keeps the tip and tail loose for slarving. I think this is the intended effect of their dual-radius sidecut.

[MJbumper1121]

I own the 10/11's in 186, and can honestly say the only time I wish I was skiing something different is when the snow was over 6" (that is billy goat territory in my quiver) and when skiing hard bumps (which they still can do, but with a lot more effort). Fitting the ON3P model, they like speed.

[canwilf]

Same dimensions, same price. Resort use only. Zero opportunity to demo either. Crud busting and speed stability are most important. Which one?

Bought the Vicik this year and so far I am really really really really impressed. They have the most bomber build I have ever seen: the bases are really durable, the sidewalls and edges are burly. It was my first time on a bamboo core ski and I am amazed with the nice strong flex and really noticeable dampness. Vicik: super crud buster and very stable at speed. I am also very impressed that it generates smiles in the trees when I go night skiing and handles deep powder, wet or dry with ease.

For what it is worth, this is my review of the Vicik in several parts: before a proper tune and post-tune feedback:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/255463-ON3P-Vicik-tuning-help-mini-review?highlight=

I am still eyeing their Tychoon tour ski for spring skiing. If they are anything like the Viciks, they will easily handle the refrozen dinner we get as morning or evening snow -- you know, the stuff that makes all uber-light touring skis wave the white flag while they cry mercy.

[Dkla52]

Right on! ...you mean this year's model (2012/2013) of Viciks, right?


Bought the Vicik this year and so far I am really really really really impressed. They have the most bomber build I have ever seen: the bases are really durable, the sidewalls and edges are burly. It was my first time on a bamboo core ski and I am amazed with the nice strong flex and really noticeable dampness. Vicik: super crud buster and very stable at speed. I am also very impressed that it generates smiles in the trees when I go night skiing and handles deep powder, wet or dry with ease.

For what it is worth, this is my review of the Vicik in two parts:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/255463-ON3P-Vicik-tuning-help-mini-review?highlight=

[canwilf]

Right on! ...you mean this year's model (2012/2013) of Viciks, right?

Right. Worth mentioning too:

* The skis weighed within 1/2 gram of each other. :yourock:
* The width was a smidgen wider (1.5mm wider than the web site specifications) and that is better IMO as it was the longer ski (188 cm) and I am a bit heavier.

Also, for those in Canuckland, with a 48 hour stay in the USA can now bring back up to $800 duty free! I had zero duty and zero troubles getting them across the border without paying any extra taxes. You may benefit from that, and also the Zero Oregon sales tax -- two very good reasons to visit Portland and pick up some skis.

[allTandA]

mo drift//


You don't want the Cochise. Great ski, but you can not really 'drive' it into a turn. There are a couple of guys in the shop (myself included) that are former Dynastar effectionados that are not fully satisfied with the Bodacious/Cochise as Big Dump/XXL replacements.
They are stable, and quick, but not drivable.
......

while i agree with xavierD about not being able to drive the cochise like a xxl(with a square tail no early rise...duh). and he is sure you dont want -it is prolly worth trying. damp as xxls but way more 'fun' and variable re: turn shape. still pretty f n chargey. trade off i reckon. rips groomed for a ski with its girth and camber profile. FWIW. yes i have a bunch of time on xxls, stocklis too

you can try mine if your close to 318. i'll be in WF end of march

no offense XD, just MHO

[XavierD]

I really like my 196 Bodacious, but it is no XXL/Big dump replacement.
Takes a bit to get used to as well.

[toast2266]

you can try mine if your close to 318. i'll be in WF end of march


That'd be awesome!

shoot me a PM when you're in town - I'll buy beers.

[pisteoff]

Thanks a lot man. Did you also ski the Vicik mounted with dukes? reason why I'm asking is bc mounting the Dukes does usually make the ski a bit stiffer and thus might make the skis more work to turn

Yeah, I had dukes on them, but they were smalls, so the footprint wasn't too bad, and as mentioned by someone, the heel bar slides on the heel track (for what that's worth).


I know for a fact the 12/13 have a more round flex and are less stiff than the 11/12 Viciks.
Correct


I talked to Kib at ON3P and that's what he said. What I'm absorbing from all of this is that these skis will carve nicely and is very stable for an aggressive skier in steep terrain; and making quick turns (with having side cut radius of 26 in mind) at lower speeds (lets say for the lack of better word, in blue runs) is possible by keeping the base relatively flat and start slarving back and forth given the low height camber (i think is 3mm) and the tip rocker. If they do all that, I think they are the ski that I've been looking for.

I'd agree with that, except for the slarving part. Although, mine were the first year's version, and maybe it's just my style - or lack thereof.

Oh, and his name is Kip with a "p" :fm: and that's one of the best things about buying skis from an indy manufacturer - you can talk to the guys.


...bamboo core ski and I am amazed with the nice strong flex and really noticeable dampness. Vicik: super crud buster and very stable at speed. I am also very impressed that it generates smiles in the trees when I go night skiing and handles deep powder, wet or dry with ease.

^^^ this is right on the money.

For a ski that wouldn't be considered fat by today's standard, they are surprisingly good in deep stuff.

[pisteoff]

Bumping this to add some data points (even though I know the OP went with Freerides)

I've skied groomers, deep pow, shallow pow, tracked-out/set-up crud, and rain-soaked cement on the current 184 Freerides (with the maple core and carbon layup), and there are some distinct differences between them and the first year Viciks I owned (so everything I say may not be as true for the current Vicik).

The first is mounting point. Regardless of what the claimed numbers are, the recommended mounting point on the Freeride is forward of the Vicik's. I'm guessing it has to do with the relation of the boot-center to the narrowest point of the sidecut. This difference probably drives some of the others, i.e. mount back (or mount the Viciks forward) and they'll probably feel more similar.

The second is flex. (I know that the Vicik was softened up a hair in subsequent years, and the Freeride comes in custom flexes, so grain of salt). The med-stiff Freeride is stiffer than the first year Vicik. It might be stiffer than the Wren. I'd hesitate to describe it as "medium" anything. It's a really stiff ski with softish tip and tail spacers. I find it too stiff (and not damp enough) on hard snow. Every irregularity is transmitted. That said, it doesn't deflect or throw you. It just tracks. But unless you're heavy and/or strong, it works you. Conversely, the Vicik has a med-damp ride, and thus is a little smoother.

The third is how they ski powder. My old Viciks felt like chargers all the time. The Freeride is really playful and smeary in pow. Surprisingly so. Again, I'm going to guess mounting point has a big influence on this.

If I had to choose between the two, it would really depend on what the most-encountered conditions were. For crud, cascade cement, etc. it'd be the Vicik. For pure pow (of any depth that you aren't riding on the bottom) the Freeride.

[stfu&gbtw]

I have a pair of the 184 Freerides. Mounted on the line. They rip. Super stable at speed and destroy crud. Love landing on them. Great for carving hudge turns in mixed/shit snow. Not a great pure powder ski, but okay. A bit of a pain in the ass when I get caught skiing bumps on them or otherwise have to ski slow. Surprisingly, not as versatile as my Dynastar LP115s.