BGs. 112RPs. Super 7s. Help.

[TheRaven]

Hello TGR,
First off, yes. I am a humble JONG that is looking for some advice on skis. I would appreciate any and all help.

I am in the process of choosing an all mountain, deep snow-oriented set of skis. I honestly couldn't care less how it performs on straight-up hardpack as I have another ski for that. It has to perform in wet, PNW deep snow and in anything more than 5cms of snow. I have narrowed the shape I want but I believe that hype is skewing my decision somewhat (more on this later). Here are the skis I am looking at:

2012/2013 186 ON3P Billy Goat Tour

2011/2012 186cm ON3P Billy Goat

2011/2012 188cm Rossignol Super 7

184cm DPS Wailer 112RP

I would be considering the 186 4FRNT Regengade as well, but I have heard they're a handful on anything but deep. Albeit, a blast in deep snow...with an awesome graphic...Gahhh please help me out TGR.


I have done literally an entire day's worth of research and more, yet i cannot come across the right reviews and/or advice to help me make a decision.


About Me:
5'9" 150# soaking wet. Athletic stature, starting to build a lot more aggression and speed into my skiing.

I ski at Stevens Pass, so lots of trees/tight turns. I love to play around in the trees and enjoy a nice cliff drop to a high speed runout.
I almost never ski switch, and this ski is going to be 93% resort, 7% 30-minute-hikes-to-different-areas-of the-mountain.

While I'm not going to be doing a lot of open-face maching, I do like going fast anywhere I can. Stevens Pass doesn't have a long list of wide open bowls, and I'm not in them a lot. I enjoy boosting off side hits and popping little shiftys in sketchy tree drops. I enjoy the occasional 360, and almost never do 180s except for on hard snow. I spend almost all my time in the slack country billygoating myself into places and finding fun routes out.


Back To the Skis:
I would ONLY be bringing these out in 2+" of snow, but +2", they're coming out all day, every day.

Now, in terms of skis, the one that appeals to me most is the 186 BG Tour. However, I have read on the ON3P discussion thread that Iggyskis suggests last year's BG for more maneuverable skiing because of the increased tail rocker, but the weight of the BG Tour combined with the slarvy RES has me in a trance.

As far as the 112RPs go, I have yet to read a bad review on them. They kill everywhere, but they are ugly and expensive. What would be your best compromise? What ski would you recommend for me? Demos are kind of an impossibility right now, unless I were to make a trip down to good to check out ON3P :?

I understand that Super 7s are going to be a little more playful than BGs, while still able to hold their own in chopped powder. I was told that they are about 2150g per ski, so that appeals over the 11/12 Billy Goat...Also, I haven't been able to find a direct comparison between 11/12 188 Super 7s and 11/12 186 BGs. (11/12 191 BGs are different than 11/12 186s)

Actually, come to think of it, I haven't been able to find ANY review AT ALL for the 11/12 186 BGs. Only the 191, which perform differently.


On a side note,
I can get 11/12 186 BGs for $300.
2013 BG Tours are $750...
I guess what I'm trying to determine is if the extra price is worth the weight, RES, and the changes.

Here are some videos of the kind of skiing I need the ski to excel in (not just get by, I need them to shine):
https://vimeo.com/20188156
https://vimeo.com/18759150

[Karl May]

...and this ski is going to be 93% resort, 7% 30-minute-hikes-to-different-areas-of the-mountain...
wow, where did you come up with those precise calculations.

[iscariot]

Sounds like you want the 186 4frnt EHP.

[TheRaven]

Sounds like you want the 186 4frnt EHP.

What I really want is the 186 Billy Goat Tour, but cost drives me to find the next best thing...unless some online opinions can convince me to indulge. I like the idea of supporting a local company, hence ON3P jumps out again. I'm really looking for some reviews on this last years 186s.

[whyturn]

You need to eat a burger follows by some bacon wrapped bacon
But in WA ON3P for sure
Renegade is actually a great all mountain pow ski
Super 7 is to heavy for you see point 1
Wailer is too euro for you

[auvgeek]

Haha, I think I'm gonna pick up either the 191 Tour or the 186 BillyGoat when I get paid tomorrow. Spoke with Scott about it today, and I still can't decide. Supremely annoyed at myself for not remembering how it feels to ski the Renegades and how it would be different on the BG. But I really have no need for another resort ski, other than I effing love that wood veneer, and have a serious addiction to skis.

Anyway, I assume you've seen my thoughts on the 191 BG vs the 186 Renegade (http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/238566-Review-2012-2013-ON3P-191-Billygoat?p=3596505#post3596505)? XavierD does not share my opinion/love for the Rens in chop or hardpack because (IIRC) he finds them too finicky in fore/aft balance...though he does outweigh me by 20#.

I would personally not get the 188 Super 7. Nothing about that ski appeals to me: it's heavy, soft, and too pintailed. I've never skied it, so I'm completely speaking out of my ass here, but I've also never seen anyone really charge on it (sorry BanditMan! :tongue:).

Hybrid 112RP might be sweet, if they fit your style. Softer and more tip rocker than the BG for sure. Personally, I'd go for the 190 L120 as a dedicated tree ski for Stevens. But that's just my style.

Hit me up if you want to check out the 186 Ren next season at Stevens. 310 bsl.

[TheRaven]

Yeah, I wasnt sure about the Super 7s either, but they had such a similar shape to BGs, I thought id ask. I guess someone who has ridden both would be the best judge...

I really want to love the Rens, read too much reading make them seem like a lot of work as a daily driver--not that i dont think im up to it--but if there are other skis that can get the same job done, then why not? I might have to take you up on that offer to make my own theory on them.

As of now, I think I have my finger halfway on the trigger for the 11/12 BGs, just because of cost/accessibility.

[auvgeek]

Prolly your best option, but don't rule out the 186 EHP. Been wanting a pair myself ever since D(C) mentioned that he liked them at Revy in the trees more than the Rens.

[TheRaven]

Thanks for the help, Auvgeek.
Definitely haven't ruled out the EHP--doing research now.
I would still love for you 11/12 176/186 BG owners to get in here though!

[XavierD]

11/12 186 BG is the same as the 10/11 186 BG IIRC, and I should.

191 12/13 BG in stevens trees. You may recognize some of the spots. I weigh 180.
http://vimeo.com/37943021

I would not discount the 186 Renegade. I thought that was lots of fun in soft snow, just not as stable in the firmed up whoop-dee's headed back to the lift. If you can balance like a Ballerina, you should be set though! auvgeek obviously can. It is a ski I want to spend more time on for sure.

[TheRaven]

11/12 186 BG is the same as the 10/11 186 BG IIRC
Awesome, thanks. On3p siad they added an elliptical shape to the rocker profile, so It can only be better than 10/11 :)




191 12/13 BG in stevens trees.
Grrr...Making me want the 186 Tour even more...I think that I can live with the hooky hardpack performance though, as I will hardly be using them there.
Thanks for the help.

[auvgeek]

If you can balance like a Ballerina, you should be set though! auvgeek obviously can. It is a ski I want to spend more time on for sure. Yeah B, I forgot to mention that I do ballet for fun in my spare time. :wink: But you're welcome to spend more time on them for sure.

Any thoughts on 191 BG vs 186 for me? Would like to pull the trigger before I leave today on a fishing trip.

Oh, and to the OP: here's a video of the Rens at Stevens. It's not really an edit and it's purpose is not stoke: just a normal day of skiing that for some reason I decided to film. [Actually, I was skiing like shit that particular day and went home early, but it's the only day I actually bothered to bring the camera and turn it on.] The point is you needn't be afraid of the Rens in trees or on hardpack/chop—actually, the real point is that every skier is different, so it's really hard to tell what will work for you by watching a video and getting stoked on it. Oh, and don't forget to hit mute first unless you just love the sound of the wind.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ601Uc9t_4

(And yes, that first fall was a pre-release.)

[marshalolson]

OP-

to actually get meaningful feedback you might considering talking about HOW you ski:

-do you ski with high edge angle or bases flat
-do you round your turn-finishes or push thru them?
-do you air turns over chop or blast thru it?
-do you carve across the fall line or carve down it?
-do you ski neutral (upright, weight evenly on toes and heels) or forward (flexed into boots, weight on toes only)

etc.

[auvgeek]

God damn it Marshal. Every time I start to feel like I'm speaking semi-intelligently about skis, you swoop in and make me feel like some Jack Off Newbie Gaper. :tongue:

Thanks dood. Learning alot.

[TheRaven]

OP-

to actually get meaningful feedback you might considering talking about HOW you ski:

-do you ski with high edge angle or bases flat
-do you round your turn-finishes or push thru them?
-do you air turns over chop or blast thru it?
-do you carve across the fall line or carve down it?  
-do you ski neutral (upright, weight evenly on toes and heels) or forward (flexed into boots, weight on toes only)

etc.

I definitely tend to ski flat when I can. Generally only get really high angle on hard runs. 

I round my turns in deep snow, but push through them on anything less than powder--then i'll only round the turn to dump speed.

As for airing/charging, I'm honestly somewhere in between. I like to blast through the chop for a while, but find a solid kicker and launch off of it, then back to charging. 

And I am on my toes a lot of the time. I like directing the ski where to go. I'll get neutral if I'm being lazy, but in anything less than deep powder, I'm more forward than not.

Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to include those characteristics in future inquiries. 

[whyturn]

I have skiied all the skis on your list except teh BG. 191 BG does intrigue me, but damn I already have 3 pairs of skis.
Rens are actually easiest ski I have ever been on once you get them dialed (3-5 days). But after being on them it can be a little weird on other skis. They shred groomers, crud whatever. But they are reverse camber and not trad rocker. Very innovative.
Super 7 can charge for sure but way too heavy. Fun, but new automatic or squad maybe better??
DPS is fun, but I sank it at 180-185 lbs and did not like the sub 20 radius. If they made a 200 maybe. For a lighter guy, great easy ski with good stability and pop.
BG is a big PNW ski designed by skiers skiing in the PNW. I mean if I lved ther, first choice prooably. 191 is big, runs long and will act like 195 from the guys i talked to. 186 is longer than 188 SS7 from the feedback I read.

Support the indies.............
And we expect a TR next season on this thread

of course, I like charger, big radius (30+ meter), all wood, or some carbon, and big shovels.

[marshalolson]

he wailer 112 is rad, but its for someone who prefers to ski w/ edge angle.

4 suggestions based on your above feedback:

dps hybrid lotus 120
4frnt ehp
on3p bg
moment bibby pro

[XtrPickels]

Along the lines of MO-
EHP is a great ski if you're looking to run flatter and steer more. The ski really came alive for me when the terrain got more demanding. They're underwhelming on easy stuff.
And I just happen to have some for sale ;)

[jfost]

I think you'd like the Bibby Pro's or even the Special (flat tail version, though I haven't been out on those yet)

I ski very "neutral" as described above, but when I do push the bibby's, they respond well, and can even carve on hardpack pretty dang well for a big ski. Since you don't mention switch, the Special (governor now?) might be your ticket.

Man, I guess after watching those videos that you might like a R/R design? Ever tried praxis/spats/toons?

[Stringbender]

I've been absolutely loving my 186 11-12 billy goats. I'm 5'9", 165 lbs and have a similar skiing style to what you described. They are probably my favorite skis for anything over 2". They're very maneuverable, handle chop well, and are stable yet forgiving at speed in fresh snow. I like my 181 wrenegades ('11-'12 as well) better for straight-up charging (as Scott described, they like to be within 15 degrees of the fall-line) but the BG's are more versatile and probably better for somewhere like Stevens.

For reference, I also have some 191 Caylors - better on hardpack than BGs, more playful in soft, but they tend to like a more neutral stance. For what you describe, $300 for some 186 BG's is a no-brainer.

A note on durability. I have never been on more bomber skis than ON3Ps. I had my wrens out early season in the Baker BC, and skied a line that I mistook for having adequate coverage only to find myself coming down a scree field. I hit a rock hard on almost every turn on a 1000' descent and had many nicks but no core shots. I had one edge ding on an outside edge that was hard enough to destroy the edge on other skis. If you buy ON3Ps, plan to get lots of use out of 'em.

[Bandit Man]

OP - What do you ski on now? Have you skied any rockered fun shapes?

As a fellow Stevens Pass skier, I've gotta ask, were you paying attention to any of the spring Demo days? You could have skied the Super's and the BG's this past spring at either Stevens or Crystal. Get your head out of reading specs and ski some of this stuff!

I've own the 195 Super 7, have owned the first Gen 186 BG, and spent some time on some 191 12-13 BG's. They all ski very differently.

Also, any of those will do well in tight trees and blower pow...but what you really need is something that also handles PNW mank. That would be the new BG. That rolls through heavy glop like nothing else I've ever been on. Loved the 191's in those conditions.

[PhiberAwptik]

OP - What do you ski on now? Have you skied any rockered fun shapes?

As a fellow Stevens Pass skier, I've gotta ask, were you paying attention to any of the spring Demo days? You could have skied the Super's and the BG's this past spring at either Stevens or Crystal. Get your head out of reading specs and ski some of this stuff!

I've own the 195 Super 7, have owned the first Gen 186 BG, and spent some time on some 191 12-13 BG's. They all ski very differently.

Also, any of those will do well in tight trees and blower pow...but what you really need is something that also handles PNW mank. That would be the new BG. That rolls through heavy glop like nothing else I've ever been on. Loved the 191's in those conditions.

This is what seperates the BG, when your done meadowskipping about you just turn on the nitro and these things TRUCK! Literally the ski turns in to another animal. One of the reasons I can't stay away from ON3P. They just make ski's that don't give up on you once the conditions go to shit.

[OldSchool1080s]

I picked up a pair of used 191 BGs myself. Haven't had a chance to ride them yet though.

I picked up a brand new pair of 188 11/12 super7s last year and never even took them out of the plastic due to the shit snow we had. If you choose to go the 7 route, I'd sell mine for $525 shipped to your door or $500 picked up in salt lake.

Sent from my PC36100 using TGR Forums

[TheRaven]

As a fellow Stevens Pass skier, I've gotta ask, were you paying attention to any of the spring Demo days?

Yep, i was up there for the GRO demo. I got on a pair of 191 Tours, but they seemed a little bit much ski for me at times. Other than that, I loved them. Very proficient everywhere I took them. I was just wondering if anyone had skiied on last years (2011/2012) Billy Goats, as I did not know that they are essentially the same model as the 10/11s.

Every time I went back to the tent, the 186s were gone :(

But with all the information ive gathered, I just pulled the trigger on 2011/2012 186 Billy Goats. From everything I have just learned they seem to be exactly what I am looking for minus the RES, and my pockets aren't deep enough to justify the extra money for 2013s.

I can't wait to get out on the 186s and will definitely post a comprehensive review after a solid couple weeks on them. Thanks for the help everyone.

Edit: oh, and I'm currently on a pair of Rossignol s3s.

[bridge]

Out of the skies you've listed, I've only ridden the super 7's. I would say they would satisfy your needs, I think they would be the dampest out of the bunch based on the fact that they have some metal in there. That would definitely help with wet PNW snow, my impression of both the s7 and super 7's were they were very easy to ski, both folded very easy when you would drive them hard at all, both float very well. If you want something really stable, don't get this shape of ski, tapered tips and tails are made to increase float while making the ski feel shorter, be easy to swing around, even the SUPER versions (super sevens, AK JJ's) still aren't what I would consider very stable skis, just made for a bigger person IMO

[D(C)]

I ski Whister (and sometimes Baker), so similar snow to you, and I have tried lots and lots of skis, though no ON3Ps or DPS.

The pow skis I have been happiest on are the 186 EHP and 190 Bibby (go for the 184 at your weight). My thoughts on how the 2 compare are here, and the choice for you depends on your style: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/135177-Moment-Bibby-Pro-vs-4frnt-EHP?p=3587775#post3587775

EHP vs. Renegade thoughts are here: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/221174-A-4FRNT-Comparison-186-Renegade-vs-188-CRJ-vs-186-EHP. Rens are definitely a try before you buy ski, but actually for me it was love at first turn and I actually liked them less and less as the novelty wore off, growing tired of the lack of effective edge and unforgiving fore-aft balance.

I owned 188 S7s (non-metal) and demoed 195 Super 7s for a couple runs. The skis are great but get rocked in chop due to the large splay in the tips, and are really slow in pow due to drag as a result of this design feature. The S7s were revolutionary skis but other models have taken the good from the S7 and tweaked what needed improvement (the exaggerated splay and the soft flex).

I'd like to try some ON3Ps and DPS since I hear nothing but good things.

[Skidog]

Something to keep in mind...

http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/one-ski-quiver-part-6/3

H2OG Kodiak got a runner up to the 112 on blister....just saying its one to add to the list of choices.

[Karl May]

@D(C): how do the Rens compare with the Bibby Pros, especially hard pack and crud performance? I'm assuming the Bibbys win...
Sorry for the slight thread hijack...Thanks

[D(C)]

@D(C): how do the Rens compare with the Bibby Pros, especially hard pack and crud performance? I'm assuming the Bibbys win...
Sorry for the slight thread hijack...Thanks

Very different skis but both chargey in their own way.

Hardpack and chop/crud - both are nice skis if it's smooth, with the Bibbys feeling more locked into a carve. The Rens will always have a bit of slarve to them rather than being completely clean but nice turns on smooth groomers are possible. Once it gets bumpy (even skied-out groomers), the longer effective edge and regular camber on the Bibby keep them tracking and smooth. The Rens get deflected off-line because they have such a short sidecut and contact length. They're doable but you can't trust the edges in the same way.

In pow - take your pick. Rens are looser and faster in the open stuff (they feel like they have less drag, though the Bibbys don't feel overly draggy). In the trees, the Rens once again become a handful if it's tight since they have such a small sweet spot. If you're in the right place on them, great. If you need your tails, forget it. The Bibbys are more forgiving and snappier.

[Karl May]

D(C), as always, awsome information, greatly appreciated

[MJbumper1121]

I have the 191 2011/12 billy goats (175 lb 5'11) which I use on days 6+ in. I absolutely love them but do feel they are big much for me to handle in tight steep trees. If I had it my way, I would pick up the 2012/13 186 for my tree ski (a bit more manuverable in tight spaces) and keep the 191 for everything else. I have 186 vicik or anything sub 6 in. I have been extremely impressed with the bombproof construction of both pairs. I am pretty hard on my skis, yet both pairs have little to no top sheet chipping or scratches on the base.

I've heard ON3P lets people demo their skis throughout the season (and will most likely have a demo day early season). I would try a few pairs out and see what you think.