If Giant doesn't announce 650 carbon Reign soon, here is my new bike....

[rideit]

http://forums.mtbr.com/650b/scott-genius-2013-650b-796216.html

There is a pic in there.
Scott Genius 650b, all titted out....
Only things I see changing are the 28 hole wheelset, possibly ditch the HB controls for the fork and shock, tires, and bar/stem. Probably run 24/34 crankset with bash/guide instead of 30 speed triple, or possibly 1/10 with a 30.

Gonna wait until I can take one out for a proper flogging first, though, most likely at Interbike. I imagine this won't 'really' be available until Dec?

[scottyb]

Lot of folks been waiting for that one.

[pollydog]

I'm curious as to why the bottom bracket and cranks appear behind (placed back of) the frame triangle. Nice looking bike. I'm still a little skeptical of all these carbon frames that are rolling out. Just had a carbon seatpost snap on me and went back to an alloy one. I would be scared as hell I would get a nick or ding in the frame that would eventually compromise the frames integrity.

[Finstah]

I'm surprised you would forego Maestro (or another floating pivot design) for a more rudimentary single pivot design simply because the wheels are slightly bigger.

[rideit]

That (carbon for MTB) argument has been pretty much put to bed elsewhere, IMO. So, for the sake of keeping this thread on topic, let's just assume that is a non issue, OK?
If you do feel the need to navel gaze on this, please go over here:http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/carbon-vs-aluminium-frame-761502-3.html

Or, for this forum, here:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/221113-Carbon-Vs-Alloy-Mountain-bikes

Now let's proceed with other superfluous arguments about how people on 29- ers are really just roadies looking for a shortcut to skillz.

[Finstah]

Ok, I'll assume suspension design is a non issue.

That Scott is DA BOMB!

[rideit]

Fin, it's not 'foregoing', it's finding a stopgap bike that works that has the features and spec that I am looking for, and I have to say the Scott fits that bill. I have been loyal to Giant for years, but it is Looking to be a few years out before they will offer anything close to what I am looking for in Maestro or similar. I am also limited to my 'cost' options without calling mad favors, and this one is an easy to ask for option. Others are Rocky, Santa Cruz, Pivot, Orbea, and 'possibly' Turner...

[Finstah]

Fair enough. For what it's worth they do have a 29er Trance X coming for 2013.

[rideit]

Yeah, but that doesn't do anything for me. Word on the alleyway is that Reign protos are rolling, but they are looking at the bigger travel direction first for 650, whereas I am looking for a capable all-rounder 'light' trail bike, (6"x6") and the Trance is under gunned for my desires.

[marshalolson]

can someone explain to me the love-affair with 650b?

je ne get it pas

[Skipig25]

fan bois jumping on the bandwagon?

I've ridden a few of the KHS 650B's already, and while they were nice bikes, I don't think they're the end-all of biking. I do think they'll eventually fill in/take over the mid range suspension gap though, with hardtails to 4" bikes going more towards 29er, 5-6" bikes going 650b, and DH bikes staying 26".

Of course there will always be exceptions, and people have their own personal preferences when it comes to what they ride. 650B is made to be the best of both worlds between the nimbleness of 26" and the rolling capacity of 29", but I think in reality it's just a blurred area in between that rides okay, but doesn't excel at anything

[marshalolson]

i mean i get it. they are 5% bigger than a 26 and 5% smaller than a 29.

[shredgnar]

Limited rim and tire selection, duh. Cuts down on time spent deciding between various options. Plus they are not to big, not to small, but just right. Goldilocks mentality.

[marshalolson]

i would rather have a 28.25 front and a 26.75 rear.

[toast2266]

Seems like the crappy Scott suspension design would pretty much outweigh the benefits of a plastic frame and slightly larger wheels. I'd still take an aluminum Reign with 26" wheels over that Scott.

[frorider]

http://gp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb8003696/p4pb8003696.jpg

Supposedly 2013 is going to be a big year for industry heavyweights move toward 650b, for several reasons:

a. 29er's hudge growth (in some countries) surprised the industry. Some Euro brands who dragged their feet on 29 are determined to lead, not follow, on 650b.

b. Many in the industry believe 650b has an inherent advantage in terms of enabling good frame geo across different geographical markets (i.e. Asia, where not everyone is over 6 ft tall), genders, etc.

c. Since proper 650b tires are only barely available currently, few have ridden a decent 650b bike with fat rubber...i.e. with a large casing 2.4 on there, the rollover ability is supposedly a bit more like a 29er

d. While wheel stiffness and strength on a standard flange width 135 shell is ok for 29er if hand-built on a quality rim, it's not stellar on the lower-end wheels...the industry expects that 650b will do better in this regard. Again, the theme here is that the industry is looking for a mainstream solution, so think beyond the $5k+ bikes we tend to ride. Moreover, for cost control reasons, some fork brands will have models that are 26er/650b compatible.

e. 650b will allow uncompromised so-called AM/FR bikes in the 160+ mm travel range up front i.e. a burly cross section crown (e.g. Totem) with 160+ travel AND a head tube tall enough to enable a rigid front end yet still have bar height comparable to a dialled in 26er. This cannot be accomplished w/ 29er.

I'm no hater of 29ers; they have their place especially in the hardtail category (I have 3 29ers, 4 26ers). But having tested FS 29ers over the years, and having considered the geo constraints especially for people shorter than I am, I do see the logic of 650b and why it potentially will become the mainstream wheelsize for mtn biking.

Current 650b solutions on crappy Jamis frames with skinny, low volume Pacenti tires (which give an OD not much bigger than a fat 26er tire) don't adequately characterize what 650b could perform like.

[frorider]

PS I just bought a Norco Truax frame, partly because Norco seems to be killing it lately with many frame design details that are very well thought out, and an approach to FSR that is getting strong reviews. So if I do jump on the 650b bandwagon in 2013 to replace my Nomad, the production version of the Norco proto in the pic above will be a leading contender.

However until I see the tire and fork options for 2013 confirmed, I'll be on the sidelines.

[rideit]

Tire, rim, and fork options are all confirmed, and in overtime production, from all major companies.

[frorider]

Tire, rim, and fork options are all confirmed, and in overtime production, from all major companies.

'confirmed' as in it's been publicly announced that several major brands will be introducing tires, rims, and forks? Or confirmed as in the actual product line specifics?

For example, it's well-known that Specialized is working hard on 650b frames, but AFAIK we still don't know any specifics.

Decent rim options exist today...2013 will see expansion of that, and scaled up production. I'm more interested in knowing what actual tires (including weight, casing options, etc) will be on the market. I'm glad that several major brands have strongly hinted they will introduce a decent selection of 650b tires, but specifics have been lacking. please let us know what you've heard....

:cool:

[rideit]

The production cycles are in full swing for Pre-interbike sales launches, expect most details to come out in full force from press camp and thereabouts.

[frorider]

Yep that's what I thought. I'll be interested to see the details on the 650 fox built on the 34 mm chassis.

[rideit]

Seeing as what your user name is, check it:
http://forums.mtbr.com/yeti/official-yeti-stance-650b-794271.html

[rideit]

Fox details within:
http://forums.mtbr.com/650b/2013-fox-650b-786230.html

[bsavery]

can someone explain to me the love-affair with 650b?

je ne get it pas

People want longer travel + bigger wheels I think. Are there any 29ers with more than 130mm travel?

[marshalolson]

People want longer travel + bigger wheels I think.

my question is WHY? just a question. just curious.

[rideit]

Because MORE options are better. That goes for restaurants, bars, skis, and bikes. And boobs. Why are there cutting edge DPS skis, when Rossignol makes ones that work just fine?

[dfinn]

Are there any 29ers with more than 130mm travel?

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Niner-WFO9-Bike-Check-Video-2012.html

I don't think this is the only one. I pedaled one of these around, seemed like it would be super fun.

[flatlander#2]

Because MORE options are better. That goes for restaurants, bars, skis, and bikes. Why are there cutting edge DPS skis, when Rossignol makes ones that work just fine?

el douché

[flatlander#2]

There are alot of ski similarities to be made. There are still a shitload of carver/corduroy burning skis sold for some reason, even bump skis are still available. Maybe because people like to ride them. Not everyone likes to ride a 26" squishy bike on gnar terrain. Friend of mine rode the hundo on a custom ti Black Sheep ss with rigid front and rides Bergen Peak 2-3 times a week on it. He can ride whatever he wants, he owns a bike shop, he rides this because...he likes it.

[bagtagley]

Except, being an early adopter to a new wheel size means less options. 29ers are beyond mainstream, yet you still only get a handful of tread options from tire manufacturers, and most of them are shitty. They're just now figuring out geometry on 29ers, so frame choice has been limited unless you like steep and looonnnnggg.

[rideit]

Bag, I think you haven't been paying attention. If you have a favorite 26" tread, you are going to see it (or something like it, or better) by the end of the year. 650 isn't new, it's actually ooooold...

[jetski]

Does your lust bike have to be carbon?^^

[marshalolson]

Because MORE options are better. That goes for restaurants, bars, skis, and bikes. Why are there cutting edge DPS skis, when Rossignol makes ones that work just fine?

what tangible difference is there to you? what about a 1.5" larger wheel makes riding more fun to you? what is your subjective opinion?

i have ridden 650b. i have my own opinions. that is fine. i think they climb *slightly* quicker in a same gear, but i found myself slowing cadence, increasing the work, or having to upshift once with the 650b, so the net gear-inches in the real world, for me, are about the same as a 26'er. but yes, if you can maintain the same cadence at the same gear ratio you will go 6% further with each pedal stroke. i did find them to descend fairly similarly to a 26'er.

my question is why YOU, on a personal level, prefer 650b... hence the question. climbing? descending? etc...

10 restaurants walking distance to your house are great, but not if they are all taco bell, macdonalds, burger king, etc.

[bagtagley]

Bag, I think you haven't been paying attention. If you have a favorite 26" tread, you are going to see it (or something like it, or better) by the end of the year. 650 isn't new, it's actually ooooold...

One of these days, I'm going to come join you in fantasy land.

[rideit]

Ok, you can sleep in the shed with Woo. Btw, what are you current 'favorite' 26" tires?

[XtrPickels]

Bag, I think you haven't been paying attention. If you have a favorite 26" tread, you are going to see it (or something like it, or better) by the end of the year. 650 isn't new, it's actually ooooold...

This hasn't happened with 29ers yet. Perhaps when maxxis comes out with a 29er dhf and specialized has their 29er butcher. To say that you'll see it or something better, in 650b by the end of the year, is a bit misguided.

[rideit]

Difference is that 29er dh tire weights are just astronomical. As is their centrifugal and rotational properties. It is, IMO, part of the 'dimInishing returns' of the 29er size.

[Conundrum]

650=bike companies running out of stuff to sell and hoping that our society's desire to be new and cool will put food on their table.

Just my opinion and I'd demo one if the opportunity presented itself. If I needed a new bike I would consider one if I liked how it rode. Would I go out of my way to get a 650 because it was a 650, hell no. Marshal nailed it 5% less or more...95% of the population including me probably couldn't tell a discernable difference.

As far as Rideit...if he needs a new bike, why not consider it?

[rideit]

That pretty much sums it up, I won't be able to 'know' its properties unless I own one, and I can easily move it if I don't dig it. I do know that I do NOT like how 29ers ride for ME. Why not give it a go? Personally, I could give a shit what the 'industry' is pushing, apparently, a LOT of the 'industry' is resisting, so that notion is a bit conspiratorial.
Here is a good primer as to varying attitudes among some key industry players, it is interesting.
http://forums.mtbr.com/650b/manufacturer-interviews-650b-793625.html

[Conundrum]

We never landed on the moon.

[scrublover]

We never landed on the moon.

Beer->nose->screen.

[phatfreeheeler]

I have to admit, I'm kinda with Marshal on this one...why?

The guys at Specialized swear they have tested 650B extensively and all their riders came back saying that they don't really see a problem with the wheel size, but also saw no real benefit over 29" for the XC/endurance guys and 26" for everyone else. I don't believe they are full of shit when they make those statements cause those guys really want to build the best bikes they can. I'm no fanboy, but they are a rider driven company. I know even many short girls are doing great in XC on 29" HT's. The people I know in the industry all say they are being forced into this wheel size because a few players are pushing it really hard and you can't fight the momentum it's already gained. Hell, I'm not 100% satisfied with the tire choices available in 26" just because I really like running my Stan's rims and single ply Minions don't play well with them. I agree with Bag's the 29" tire options are still focused toward XC weenies too much. Just cause you make a casing bigger does not make that the tread anyone really wants or needs.

BTW - more options is not necessarily better at all. The market is a specific size...if you overdilute each small portion of the market with more options you will quickly end up with fewer good options in many categories. Also, a larger style count means less frequent changeover to better designs because they can only update so many models per year. In the end, they will each focus on the meat of the market, which isn't really where people like myself and many others I know live. In the past, that was the 5" travel 26" light trail bike market which is a bike I've never owned unless you consider the original I-drive at 4.7" there. Lately it's been the 4" 29er market. Suddenly they are all scrambling to build 650B bikes with 130-140mm of travel due fork options. In the meantime, where is the carbon Reign, the new RFX, a carbon Firebird, an improved Mojo HD (150-170mm options please). All these companies have limits to their resources based on growth in sales. If you sell more styles, but less qty of each you will have lower margins on each sale and that gets even slimmer when you figure in R&D costs & tooling to bring each style to market. Options are only good if they are working on the options you want, if not, it's just delaying you getting that dream bike you've been waiting to come to market. Unfortunately, that's my camp.

One thing I keep thinking is that I want my big bike and my little bike to feel as similar as possible so I can hop on one and instantly feel at home. I was closest when I ran a Reign X and my Glory. The HD isn't far off the RX so it's still pretty good, but if the wheel size was different I question how similar they will feel. Add in the fact that tires, and even wheels for the most part can be compatible across multiple bikes in the garage and I have to question why I would want to complicate my stable unless it's a significant improvement in performance. If my wife blows up a wheel, not unheard of, it takes 2 minutes to swap one off another bike and get her rolling again.

One other question - if there is NO ISSUES designing around a 27.5" tire as they often like to state, why the hell are they not building me a 26" bike with even shorter chainstays? SERIOUSLY, are they really leaving 0.75" of extra chain stay on the bike just because they are lazy?

[rideit]

Again, diminishing returns. Chain line requires some length to work in all gears, there is no way around tt, even with 1x10.

[scrublover]

I have to admit, I'm kinda with Marshal on this one...why?

One thing I keep thinking is that I want my big bike and my little bike to feel as similar as possible so I can hop on one and instantly feel at home. I was closest when I ran a Reign X and my Glory. The HD isn't far off the RX so it's still pretty good, but if the wheel size was different I question how similar they will feel. Add in the fact that tires, and even wheels for the most part can be compatible across multiple bikes in the garage and I have to question why I would want to complicate my stable unless it's a significant improvement in performance. If my wife blows up a wheel, not unheard of, it takes 2 minutes to swap one off another bike and get her rolling again.

One other question - if there is NO ISSUES designing around a 27.5" tire as they often like to state, why the hell are they not building me a 26" bike with even shorter chainstays? SERIOUSLY, are they really leaving 0.75" of extra chain stay on the bike just because they are lazy?



This. I'll still state being very curious though. Very much disliked my couple brief forays into 29er bikes, building up my own, test riding others. As in, really, really fucking hated them. Still open to the idea, weirdly enough. If I ever ride one that blows me away, sure, I might buy. I ride front end heavy, and like a low front - never could get comfy on any of the bikes I've tried. Even a Banshee Paradox with a slammed stem, 100mm fork, wide bars and short stem - borrowed from an injured buddy for a week to check out. Felt too long and choppery (sp?) and just plain cumbersome. The dude who lent me the bike ride the same trails, pretty much the same way I do, and he fucking loves the bike. Whatever works for you.

(duck) I will say this: the majority of 29er riders I see around me can't pick decent lines or ride technical stuff worth a crap. That said, their are quite a few who kill everything on their 29ers. This just drives home to me that it really is the rider, not the bike. A good rider is going to kick ass no matter the platform.

The 650b thing seems a happy medium. Might grab a cheapy wheelset, just to try in my current bikes for shits and giggles though.

Oooh, yeah. I'd love the shorter stays for where I'm riding now. Big time agree on running the same parts in the stable. All my bikes share drive-train and brake bits. Very easy to swap a part if need be. Only one bike runs a different rear axle, and I have the parts to swap all three bike rear wheels to fit whichever frame it needs to go on. Having different rim sizes in the fleet would just fuck things up.

Industry or consumer driven, I'm not sure I care. Options are good.

[marshalolson]

I won't be able to 'know' its properties unless I own one

sorry man, i miss-understood, i thought you had ridden it already and now have to own one.

[stuckathuntermtn]

650b seems like tapered headtubes, 15mm TAs, 142X12 rear ends, et al.
Yet another standard that they're going to squeeze in the middle. Not that it makes it bad. It just is.

[darkstar1974]

Except, being an early adopter to a new wheel size means less options. 29ers are beyond mainstream, yet you still only get a handful of tread options from tire manufacturers, and most of them are shitty. They're just now figuring out geometry on 29ers, so frame choice has been limited unless you like steep and looonnnnggg.

You can get just about any tread you'd like in 29er these days. I ride them almost exclusively now and love the tire options. I just picked up some Hans Dampf's and they are working out pretty well.

[rideit]

Hans Dampfs will be available in 650b October or so, from recent reports.

[LeeLau]

can someone explain to me the love-affair with 650b?

je ne get it pas

People don't have enough complexity in their lives?

They want to have more incompatibility in their wheels?

Get sick of being mistaken for dwarves on clown bikes?

Having said that I'll get looped into riding one I know

[phatfreeheeler]

You can get just about any tread you'd like in 29er these days. I ride them almost exclusively now and love the tire options. I just picked up some Hans Dampf's and they are working out pretty well.

You do live in fantasy land. Just to humor all of you I went looking for tires I'd buy for aggressive Utah riding to see if I could find them in 29" and I totally failed to find anything in the neighborhood. The Hans Damp isn't even on my short list with all the intermediate knobs to get in the way of maximum cornering traction.

[Lev]

You do live in fantasy land. Just to humor all of you I went looking for tires I'd buy for aggressive Utah riding to see if I could find them in 29" and I totally failed to find anything in the neighborhood. The Hans Damp isn't even on my short list with all the intermediate knobs to get in the way of maximum cornering traction.

Talking out of my ass... how about Ardents?

[rludes025]

Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong but every 650b tire I have seen is shorter (as in not as tall from the rim to tread) than it 26" counter part. Conti has 26" tires that measure damn close to a lot 650b tires. Now maybe this is because people have had to force them into 26" frames but the point is still there. A lot of these people ranting and raving about how this in between wheel size is where its at could have just bought some tires instead of hard to find rims and tires.

[Conundrum]

29er ardents are great for dirt sidewalks. It seems as though everything that is beefy is heavy and every light is not ideal for sharp rocks and burliness. My goodness, it looks like we've reached a level of Dynafit vs. 916/trekker nerdism in a ski forum... I want a 2 gram tire that descends like something that would be on a YZ250.

I hope we can ride in the morning.

[rideit]

Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong but every 650b tire I have seen is shorter (as in not as tall from the rim to tread) than it 26" counter part. Conti has 26" tires that measure damn close to a lot 650b tires. Now maybe this is because people have had to force them into 26" frames but the point is still there. A lot of these people ranting and raving about how this in between wheel size is where its at could have just bought some tires instead of hard to find rims and tires.
Wrong. Try again. Even a 2.7 Michelin 26 is still not as tall, and weighs 1500 grams.

[BushwackerinPA]

29er ardents are great for dirt sidewalks. It seems as though everything that is beefy is heavy and every light is not ideal for sharp rocks and burliness. My goodness, it looks like we've reached a level of Dynafit vs. 916/trekker nerdism in a ski forum... I want a 2 gram tire that descends like something that would be on a YZ250.

I hope we can ride in the morning.

eh mine seems to hold up fine... I doubt you have anything in Idaho that resembles some of the trails around here in chunk.

[rideit]

Off topic, but I am in Ct, and LOVING the uber chunk. Wiss we had this rock in Wy/ID. So, so fun and challenging.

[BushwackerinPA]

Off topic, but I am in Ct, and LOVING the uber chunk. Wiss we had this rock in Wy/ID. So, so fun and challenging.

I really like it all. CT, Parts of Vermont, Central pa and WV and I am sure other places have it as well, but after riding in UT, Co, and ID I have never seen it out there. with that said I can appreciate the buff flowliness of most western riding.

[rideit]

Well, there is Sourhern Utah, all the chunk you could want.

[Conundrum]

There's riding outside of Idaho? I think I might try it.

[marshalolson]

after riding in UT, Co, and ID I have never seen it out there

dude, they are called the "rockies" for a reason... where were you riding?

[willmtbike4food]

People want longer travel + bigger wheels I think. Are there any 29ers with more than 130mm travel?

Salsa Horsethief. I love mine.

[phatfreeheeler]

So your Salsa Horsethief has 120mm of travel in back and that's more than 130mm? Simple math is not your strong suit I see. Your 140mm fork is not what was asked as that's an accessory, and on most of the 130mm bikes anyways...As for the question, do longer travel 29" bikes exist, the answer has been YES for many years now. Lenz Sport has made 6" Lunchbox and even 7" PBJ.

Here's the PBJ...
117589

And no, I hate Ardent's. They skid like crazy if you push them hard.

[Conundrum]

There's a guy in Boise with a concept 29er he put together with either 7 or 8" travel front and rear. It's got a gear box and dual chain drive train. I'm trying to go check it out in the next couple weeks. I doubt he'll produce it but he is going to start an AM line if he gets one of those $250k grants that have been all over Facebook.

[scrublover]

dude, they are called the "rockies" for a reason... where were you riding?


Yeah. Lots of chunk. I think out here has more "chunk" overall, but it's at the expense of having vert and smooth stuff.

They are both good, both fun. I'll happily ride my bike either place! Out west I missed the chunk and tight, trialsy twisty stuff. Out here in the east I mess the vert and baby ass smooth mach retarded hauling ass stuff.

[marshalolson]

yeah man, riding bikes is fun, and everyone should do it regardless of location. :D

my point was more that if you could not find rocky trails in colorado or utah, you didn't look for it very hard.

i know YOU have ridden rocky trails in colorado, cause... well... i rode 'em with ya!

ps- in utah now, if you ever make it thru, hit me up :D

[Poop~Ghost]

Wrong. Try again. Even a 2.7 Michelin 26 is still not as tall, and weighs 1500 grams.

Well, I'm confused. I have a 26" maxxis high roller 2.5 that I put on my back tire - and it barely clears. I had rocks pinging outta my ass like crazy. Increase the rim size, decrease the tire height and it still isn't as tall?

[rideit]

Nope. I run 2.5 dh 26" tires, still a lot smaller than 2.4 650b.

[flatlander#2]

ps- in utah now, if you ever make it thru, hit me up :D

uhm, huh?

[CantDog]

Central to this debate is people will make the 650b what they want it to be. Those who think it will be the perfect size will love it, folks who still ride 26ers will see it as unnecessary.

I ride a Sinister Simon Bar 29er SS. Used to ride an ASX and a trek 8000. Ride xc and I guess some "all mountain" type stuff...but I've only ever viewed things as DH or XC.

Riding in Bozeman, racing ORAMM in NC, Apex in Golden, new England single track...I've never been hampered by my bike. And part of that is probably me not constantly thinking "there has to be a perfect bike just for this". Ride what ya got, and enjoy the landscape.

[tellybele]

Central to this debate is people will make the 650b what they want it to be. Those who think it will be the perfect size will love it, folks who still ride 26ers will see it as unnecessary.

I ride a Sinister Simon Bar 29er SS. Used to ride an ASX and a trek 8000. Ride xc and I guess some "all mountain" type stuff...but I've only ever viewed things as DH or XC.

Riding in Bozeman, racing ORAMM in NC, Apex in Golden, new England single track...I've never been hampered by my bike. And part of that is probably me not constantly thinking "there has to be a perfect bike just for this". Ride what ya got, and enjoy the landscape.

Nail->head. It is all about $$ and stupid as opposed to smart growth. Mo Money, Mo money, ad naseum.. People today can't do more with less or be happy doing something without the internet SprayGround or a need to upgrade?! How about upgrading one's skills???

[rideit]

Go lap corbet's on your edgeless tuas, brah. We will be waiting for you at Thunder.

[markcjr]

I may be missing the humor here, but "chunk" is the gayest term ever

[dfinn]

Baby Ruth!

[macdadmorgan]

Baby Ruth!

"I rode up this big hill, and you said you'd give me a Twinkie"

[rideit]

[Chunk and Sloth are chained up together]
Chunk: Hey, mister? Are you hungry? I got a Baby Ruth.
Sloth: Ruth! Ruth! Baby! Ruth!
Chunk: Here you go.
[Chunk tosses the candy bar to Sloth and it hits him in the head.
Both scream]
Chunk: Im sorry, mister! Im sorry!
[Sloth rips his chains out of the wall and goes to pick up the candy
bar. Then, he realizes hes free]
Chunk: Gee, mister. Youre even hungrier than I am.

[Dromond]

I've ridden a 650b bike. I think it's a fine wheel size. I also think that it is coming to market only because wheel sizes are easy to push (you gotta get on a 29er!!!) and there are few downsides because it is only slightly bigger than 26". The change in standards is annoying and a huge hassle for everyone. I dare anyone to convince me that 650b is more than an incremental improvement. That said, if in 5 years every other bike is 650b and every shop stocks good 650b tires I would have no problem owning one. In the meantime, the pains of being an early adopter (lack of parts, increased prices, poor availability when you break something) do not in my mind justify the *slightly* larger wheel size. I just ordered a new 26" bike this week and had no qualms doing so....

[PeachesN'Cream]

I just ordered a new 26" bike this week and had no qualms doing so....

Ohhh new TRc on the way or did ya go with something different?

/livingvicariously

[Dromond]

Ohhh new TRc on the way or did ya go with something different?

/livingvicariously

Haha yeah that's the one. It's going to be fucking awesome.

[Conundrum]

Sloth love chunk.

[rludes025]

Wrong. Try again. Even a 2.7 Michelin 26 is still not as tall, and weighs 1500 grams.

2.4 contis measure damn close to Pancenti 650b tires

I don't really care for the record. If you're having fun on your bike than thats great. I am just saying most tires are not 1.5 inches taller.

All being said I would ride a 650b if it were infront of me.

[rideit]

I totally agree, people should ride whatever the hell they want. They still make rigid forks and 7 speed, too, and that works for some folks just fine. Personally, I really wanted to like 29'ers, but just don't. All that said, a Pacenti 2.4 is just over 27.5" tall, a 2.4 26" conti is over an inch shorter.

[robnow]

The newer crop of 27er tires will be taller. Nobby Nics have been measured at 27 13/16 and Hans Dampf should be taller than that even...and then a 27 RQ, well then you'll be saying you might as well be riding a 29er;)

[bagtagley]

Here you go, Rideit.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/06/19/prototype-turner-burner-650b-mountain-bike-spotted/

[rideit]

Interesting Lennard Zinn comments on 650b, and some history.
http://singletrack.competitor.com/2012/06/bikes-tech/tech-faq-whats-the-big-deal-with-650b_32195



Editor’s Note: Lennard Zinn’s regular column is devoted to addressing readers’ technical questions about bikes, their care and how we as riders can use them as comfortably and efficiently as possible. Readers can send brief technical questions directly to Zinn.
Dear Lennard,
As you are likely aware, the latest hot topic in the mtn bike world is 650b. Opinions range from the “best of both extremes”, the ideal size, to worst of both worlds, marketing ploy by companies that missed out on the 29″ boom.

Kirk Pacenti, the driving force behind the “movement,” notes that the wheel is better suited to trail and AM suspension @ 150 cm and 160 cm than 29″, and still has better roll than 26.”

So far only “microbrew” sized companies have signed up for 2013, now that Fox and RockShox forks will be available, plus more rims and tires every day.

No Trek, no C’dale, no Specialized, no Santa Cruz.

Indeed, now that the initial euphoria starting when Nino Schurter won a WC XC race in March on a prototype Scott Scale has wound down, the backlash has started. One recurring meme is what exactly is the diameter and how does it compare with the other two wheels? When using the generally accepted mtb method of measurement (OD with inflated tire mounted measured in inches) it appears fairly simple and obvious: 27.5 is halfway between 26 and 29. But because tire heights are not uniform the naysayers argue that these denominations are meaningless. Comparing ISO/bsd measurements, generally used for road bikes, is worse than mixing apples with oranges. Kirk Pacenti picked the name 650b instead of 27.5 creating the potential for confusion in consumers at the outset; it seems that there are some in the industry who simply don’t like or want a third wheel size who are intent now on exploiting the confusion, trying to nip the middle wheel off in the bud.

Have you formed any opinions at this juncture?
— Doug

Dear Doug,
Kirk Pacenti did not invent the 650b size or the name for it, and it was natural that he would use the name that already existed for that rim size, especially as 650b mountain bikes have existed for decades. The 650b size has been around for a long time — at least 50 years. It was a popular trekking and tandem size in Europe in the 1960s and 1970s, for instance.

When I was working in Tom Ritchey’s framebuilding shop in 1981, he made some bikes for himself and friends to fit some Nokian Hakkapeliitta 650b tires that Gary Fisher was importing. (At the time, Ritchey was building bikes that Gary Fisher was distributing through his shop in San Anselmo, CA, and they carried the Ritchey logo with “Mountain Bikes,” Fisher’s business name, superimposed over it).

The Hakkapeliitta tires were great compared to the 26-inch mountain bike tires you could find at the time. The Hakkapeliitta casing was supple, the weight was low, and the tread pattern was refined, fast, and quite aggressive, whereas the 26-inch tires of the day were just big square blocks on a heavy carcass. You could even get studded Hakkapeliitta 650b tires, as those were used for bike racing on frozen lakes in Finland, where the tires were made. According to Wikipedia, Nokian adopted the Hakkapeliitta name for its winter tires in 1936. It still uses it.

We used Super Champion 650b tandem rims back then, which were lighter than most 26-inch mountain bike rims of the time.

After all, you should remember that a primary reason 26-inch became the default mountain bike tire size starting in the 1970s and 1980s was simply that import duties on them were cheaper, as the US Customs Dept. charged a higher duty rate on adult bikes than on children’s bikes, and it considered 26-inch to be a children’s-bike tire size.

The sweet fillet-brazed Ritchey 650b bikes Tom was making then were great – light, nimble, and faster-rolling than the Ritchey standard-production 26-inch bikes.

When I left Tom’s employ and came back to Boulder, I took a Ritchey 650b bike with me and rode it for years, including in some cyclocross races as well as all over the Crested Butte area on my honeymoon in 1983. I loved that bike. It always drew lots of looks, because there were no others in Colorado at the time.

I built a number of 650b mountain bikes after I started my own framebuilding business in 1982, and my customers loved them, but when Fisher could no longer get the tires in 1983 or 1984, I quit doing so.

I built my first recent 650b bike in 2008, after Pacenti came out with 650b tires. It was a titanium bike for an ultra-distance rider who does brevets and events like Paris-Brest-Paris on the road and wanted a single mountain bike with which to do the Great Divide race as well as Alaska winter races on the Iditarod trail, plus she wanted to be able to other long-distance dirt rides. She originally wanted a 29er, but due to her short stature and the multi-purpose demands of the bike, I talked her out of that and into the 650b size instead. It worked out ideally for her purposes. She did those races on the bike, and she has three sets of wheels of entirely different rim size for it, which, thanks to disc brakes, can all be used on it. She has the 650b mountain bike wheels and tires (see photo), a 26-inch wheelset with the Alaskan SnowCat rims from All-Weather Sports with super-fat snow tires on it, and a 700C set (yes, this is what a 29-inch wheel uses – the same size as a standard road rim) that she has mounted up with cyclocross tires for fast dirt riding on smoother trails.

I certainly think that there is room and reason for 650b tires and rims to exist as a choice on mountain bikes. I think that it makes a lot more sense for wheels to be proportional to rider height (as they tend to be on kids’ bikes) than to simply jump on whatever happens to be the popular size of the moment.

When I see five-foot-tall women on little tiny 29er frames with giant wagon wheels front and rear, I cringe a bit at the design compromises that had to be made to the frame to allow a short person to ride it and not have toe overlap of the front wheel. Sure, I can understand the interest small riders might have in having a faster-rolling bike that perhaps assists them in riding with more confidence on technical descents as well as on riding whatever is the current fad, but a 650b would be a much more rational choice for short riders intent on graduating from 26-inch.

As for the resistance to 650b, the bike industry has never been one to accept change easily. There is always a backlash to something new. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
― Lennard

 

[bagtagley]

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/turner-to-bring-the-burner-back-34347/

Whatthefrig, why does the baby clownshoes bike get a 13" BB and the Spot doesn't?

[scottyb]

Still looking hard at the Intense Uzzi or the Tracer2 for my next 650b bike. If I did not already have a Stumpy converted I would be on a Tracer as soon as they make them available.

[frorider]

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/scott-genius-2013-range-first-look-34489/


As Scott-Swisspower team manager Thomas Frischknecht accidentally let slip in the product launch, 26ers are dead, at least for Scott, and with these new bikes we’re inclined to agree with him. The wheel size debate just went nuclear…

[Catch22]

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/scott-genius-2013-range-first-look-34489/

Wonder if ol Thomas ran that by the Coastal Crew or the Scott11 DH team. I think there's a lot of validity to all three sizes, but dumb ass blanket statements like that rub me the wrong way.

[shirk]

Wonder if ol Thomas ran that by the Coastal Crew

They ride for Special Ed now.

Pretty sure ol Thomas is talking in terms of xc and trail not DH and FR. That xc thing being his specialty and DH not so much.

[frorider]

They ride for Special Ed now.

Pretty sure ol Thomas is talking in terms of xc and trail not DH and FR. That xc thing being his specialty and DH not so much.

Mostly agree. The article was about a 150 mm travel 650b bike; he was there in his role as mgr of the swisspower team or whatever it's called. However I have a strong feeling that a dialled-in 160 mm 650b bike w/ a 35 mm stanchion fork would work pretty well in the am/fr category

[scottyb]

Scottys flavour of the week is Transition Blindside after finding out Knolly Chilcotin is a no go for 650b rolling stock.

[scottyb]

I ran across a thread over at MTBR on 2011 Reign converted to 650b. It was the alloy frame.

[kidwoo]

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/turner-to-bring-the-burner-back-34347/

Whatthefrig, why does the baby clownshoes bike get a 13" BB and the Spot doesn't?

Who cares. I'm going to buy one of those frames and put 26" wheels on it and get a 12" BB.


SQUEEEEEEEEEE

http://copenchengan.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/happy-pig1.jpg

[rideit]

I ran across a thread over at MTBR on 2011 Reign converted to 650b. It was the alloy frame.

Read that, and was considering that route, but the BB height is 14 5/8" with 650. That's just too tall.

[scottyb]

Read that, and was considering that route, but the BB height is 14 5/8" with 650. That's just too tall.


I think with sag the BB came out at 14 1/4", not bad. Where I ride the extra height is welcome to eliminate a lot of pedal strikes. I got used to my higher BB on the Stumpy by the end of the first ride.

Looks like to me if yur set on CF Scott is the one.

[rideit]

I kinda have a professional/personal obligation to Giant first, but only if they come out with what I am looking for. The Scott is going to be close to $9k retail, fwiw. That's pretty ridiculous.

[zombinate]

I kinda have a professional/personal obligation to Giant first, but only if they come out with what I am looking for. The Scott is going to be close to $9k retail, fwiw. That's pretty ridiculous.

well the top end will be close to $9k, but the Aluminum models will start around $3k, which is totally on par with what everyone else is doing for their AM bikes.

[rideit]

I only use Grey Poupon, my friend.

[White Chocolate]

I had an interesting conversation with a friend who designs bikes for a well known company this winter driving up skiing. He was talking about testing some 650b wheels, and they found that they didn't have enough of an improvement in rolling ability over rough stuff to be chosen over a 26". Now that there are aggressive 29" frames that can better handle fast, technical riding (shinobi, bandit 29'er, satori, etc...), they felt like 650b is a pointless new standard, even with the better fit for smaller riders. Mind you, this decision was made by actually riding the bikes on real trails with roots and rocks, and not based on the proven standard of peanut gallery armchair internet engineering, so they could be very wrong.

[rideit]

He is also likely biased by the provider of his paycheck, ultimately. I know Kona is still doing testing, and Roskopp is having a hard time wrapping his head around it.

[scottyb]

A bit of drift here but was talking to my shop buddy yesterday and I am thinking about putting my Haro Beasley, geared, up for sale to fund another project. If anyone has interest I can post up pictures and stats in another thread.


9K for the Scott, be a tad rich for my blood.

[scottyb]

The Zeus is out finally, atleast pictures of frames are. Looking pretty good.

[shirk]

http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/6/6/3/3/spitfire_2013.png

650b compatible Spitfire coming for next year.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The Zeus is out finally, atleast pictures of frames are. Looking pretty good.

I went down to the Ventana factory yesterday to check out some Zeus frames before they got boxed and shipped out to some customers....looks awesome, beautiful frame, all hand crafted / welded in NorCal

[scottyb]

I went down to the Ventana factory yesterday to check out some Zeus frames before they got boxed and shipped out to some customers....looks awesome, beautiful frame, all hand crafted / welded in NorCal

You would not happen to know frame weight for a large?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

You would not happen to know frame weight for a large?

no sorry, didn't weigh anything or talk weights. If you call and talk to Theresa (the office manager who generally handles all incoming 'sales' calls) she should be able to tell you.

[smslavin]

(duck) I will say this: the majority of 29er riders I see around me can't pick decent lines or ride technical stuff worth a crap. That said, their are quite a few who kill everything on their 29ers. This just drives home to me that it really is the rider, not the bike. A good rider is going to kick ass no matter the platform.

Ha! Good thing you ducked. :biggrin:

That's funny to me. For me there's a challenge to being on a 29er SS HT and finding the smoothest line as possible. It makes me think more about the actual riding and all that does is make me a better rider. It might just be the times that I am riding and where but I see very few folks on 29ers. The folks that I do see are squirrelly as all hell which is part of the reason I've become a solo roadie. People scare me.

I don't think I'll fall into the 650 wagon. Might not be an accurate comparison but I used to have a 650 time trial bike and didn't like the feel of it. Wifey's road bike is a 650 though because of the frame size. I'll stick with 700 on the road and 26/29 in the dirt.

[scottyb]

Talked to Theresa today, $2295 frame/shock, 7.42 lbs for a large. Add $150 for the 142x12 drop outs. Starting to finger that trigger.

BTW they have some El Bastardo frames on closeout, $1495 frame/shock.

[rideit]

Anyone seen one of these, or know much about them?
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/cube-2013-mountain-bikes-launched-at-alpe-dhuez-34831/

[scottyb]

I know they are too rich for my blood, 3000 pounds sterling for the cheapest version. :eek:

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I saw two Turner Burner prototype 650b's in Downieville this weekend. They were camped across from us at the race (the Downieville Classic). They looked pretty damn hot.

[rideit]

Looking hard at the Turner, myself.

[frorider]

Anyone seen one of these, or know much about them?
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/cube-2013-mountain-bikes-launched-at-alpe-dhuez-34831/

I see Cubes in Switzerland / Germany when I'm over there, but I don't think they have a NA distributor do they? Nothing special from what I've seen anyway.

[rideit]

Yeah, just looks like a 'classic' walking beam design. like early Norco.