Thoughts on Strava Lawsuit

[island_boy81]

Who here uses Strava to track rides? Complete for KOMs? Comments on the recent lawsuit filed against Strava...

[rideit]

Got a link?

[nit wit]

Sounds like bullshit to me.

Here's a link to a story about the suit:
http://www.mobilesportsreport.com/2012/06/lawsuit-jolts-athlete-app-world-is-strava-com-to-blame-for-cycling-accident-deaths/

[toast2266]

I think the lawsuit is bullshit

but...

if Strava is actually offering prizes for top finishers on popular routes (not sure about this, but it's mentioned in the article) then they're treading into sketchy territory. Especially for road biking, I'm not sure holding what is effectively an ongoing race on open roads where no one else knows people are racing is a good idea. Agro road weenies + unaware drivers / pedestrians is not a great combination.

[kidwoo]

Strava can disengage your brakes on a bike?

who knew?

[frorider]

haven't read the linked story, but agree w/ Toast. all kinds of liability issues crop up when any organization or company arranges a 'race'.

[Bean]

I think the lawsuit is bullshit

but...

if Strava is actually offering prizes for top finishers on popular routes (not sure about this, but it's mentioned in the article) then they're treading into sketchy territory. Especially for road biking, I'm not sure holding what is effectively an ongoing race on open roads where no one else knows people are racing is a good idea. Agro road weenies + unaware drivers / pedestrians is not a great combination.

I use strava, sort of. The talent around here is through the roof so it's more about sharing routes with friends and seeing how slow I am. The only official "events" I've seen are for doing absurd amounts of miles or climbing. You can flag a segment as dangerous (which should be done for anything with a stop sign, light, etc.) and as always, a stupid little flag on a social media website is not an excuse to be a moron and get yourself/others hurt/killed.

[Dickeymotto]

I've used it to track rides twice, but no longer have a smart phone (killed the battery anyway), so no more. I still check the site for beta on trails I've never ridden before, particularly if there is a big climb because I'm a fat wuss that needs a lot of mental prep before a big grind. I think it's pretty silly that anyone takes this shit seriously.

[Yeah!]

It's pretty obvious these riders aren't responsible for their actions. I suspect Strava sends mind-control signals through the camera in a users computer or phone.

Or maybe Strava is a government ruse for pulling overly-aggressive cyclists out of the gene pool.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I think the lawsuit is bullshit

but...

if Strava is actually offering prizes for top finishers on popular routes (not sure about this, but it's mentioned in the article)

they are not. There might be groups outside of Strava that are doing this to set up their own un-sanctioned races while using Strava (or a similar service) as a timing mechanism.

[nit wit]

they do seem to occasionally have competitions/challenges, but I don't see anything about prizes

http://app.strava.com/challenges

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

they do seem to occasionally have competitions/challenges, but I don't see anything about prizes

http://app.strava.com/challenges

yeah but those challenges are more about logging vertical feet climbing, or who can log the most miles in a month.....Sort of like May is Bike month type of stuff.

[phatfreeheeler]

I'm sure someone could call a KOM a prize. Hell, I hear stupid people pay real money for virtual crap on farmville. You know who you are ;)

That said, the real issue is way more basic than Strava, or running unorganized races in the public domain. People today seem so obsessed with themselves that they are oblivious to the people around them or the impact they might have on them. I really don't give a crap if someone does 200mph down a road as long as they only hurt themselves and don't get in the way of others that are just going about their lives. Ideally, people would be liable for their own actions and prosecuted criminally for endangering/harming others, but then the water gets muddy. Would that person have acted in the same way if some other outside influence didn't exist? Was that outside influence a person or a mean corporation, because we like going after mean corporations? Getting rid of prosecuting the outside influences seems like the logical solution, but we should question what demon that would unleash in the name of getting higher profits.

Non-sanctioned racing is as old as time, and I love it, but when doing so, you must always remember...no one else knows you are Fucking racing, so act accordingly. Same is true for sanctioned races run on open public trails/roads.

BTW - yes I use Strava. I mostly push it on the climbs and one way trails and I've really backed off to normal fun riding pace on two way downhills, just out of fear of hurting others (On the road, I would never push it on a segment that crosses through intersections just because I actually follow the law and stop at stop signs on my bike...99% of the time at least)

[sfotex]

This is the basic 'website (is/is not) responsible for the content' lawsuit. This is like the lady in Park City who used google maps and wandered onto a road and got ran over and sued google..

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_15199273

[flatlander#2]

I use it to track same training rides in a weekly, monthly, year over year thing. I can see that this time last year my weekly average for this ride was X versus this year Y.

One of the things I find annoying is days when I feel like crap versus days I feel like I'm Lance hopped up on goofballs. You look at the two files and see you are maybe a few minutes difference. Last night I rode the route with a chocolate malt in my belly, felt like crap. Think I was minus two minutes off average on a 22 mile ride.You think damn those days I feel great I should be crushing the time, yeah no.

[Bobcat Sig]

Basically, this lawsuit is just yet more proof that those in America can't have any personal responsibility and must find fault with other instead of accepting the consequences.

[toast2266]

One of the things I find annoying is days when I feel like crap versus days I feel like I'm Lance hopped up on goofballs. You look at the two files and see you are maybe a few minutes difference. Last night I rode the route with a chocolate malt in my belly, felt like crap. Think I was minus two minutes off average on a 22 mile ride.You think damn those days I feel great I should be crushing the time, yeah no.

There's a lesson to be learned here, and it involves more chocolate malt.

[Hott Butt Mud]

Absolute fucking bullshit.

Will be thrown out/dismissed.

Strava is turning cycling into a video game for nerds. Folks, just use it for yourself and shut-up.

[acinpdx]

the suit is ridiculous from all sorts of perspectives

how old is the complainant? 4?!?

i like strava and use it to track my riding, especially off road since i don't have a computer on my mtb

[XtrPickels]

Strava can disengage your brakes on a bike?

who knew?

Open and Shut

[MTT]

I think the lawsuit is bullshit

but...

if Strava is actually offering prizes for top finishers on popular routes (not sure about this, but it's mentioned in the article) then they're treading into sketchy territory. Especially for road biking, I'm not sure holding what is effectively an ongoing race on open roads where no one else knows people are racing is a good idea. Agro road weenies + unaware drivers / pedestrians is not a great combination.

That describes my home town every single day. You should see some of the midlife crisis Heads down speedsters around here. They take themselves and each other out on a regular basis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxyWIe6J2rY

[ski_adk]

I use Strava, and it's been fun to see where I'm at amongst my peers, but I've always wondered about the inadvertent evidence collecting functionality that it facilitates. Seeing this lawsuit just reminds me that maybe tracking my activities isn't so smart considering what the mainstreams' assumptions of risk are compared to mine.

Any undergrad business law class will teach you that if there's ever any evidence to support a negligence case, you can be damned sure some lawyer's going to subpoena it to go after anyone who might have had even the slightest association to the case/incident. While I'd like to see this case dismissed, I'm betting that legal precedence will show that Strava does encourage negligent activities. Watch for Strava to settle this one out of court.

[Summit]

What a BS lawsuit. I say that as my uncle is under the knife for reduction and fixation of triple fractured pelvis from being hit while riding his road bike on Sunday. These activities are fun, but dangerous. If one chooses to be competitive on an "open course," real world dangers are part of the "game."

Sent from my TI-89

[acinpdx]

I've always wondered about the inadvertent evidence collecting functionality that it facilitates.

so turn it off when poaching trails:fmicon:

[Particle]

Got into it last year, like others have said it's a nice way to track personal progress (I have a mini track loop segment that's stupid and no one else does), and also a fun way to compete with your friends. Popularity has exploded this year with my group of riding friends and acquaintances, which sucks because my KOMs have been falling like dominoes. ;)

[TomCrac]

I'm gonna sue Lexus because I drove my car to fast (like they simulate on their commercials) and crashed. Then I'mma gonna sue Samsung because I still couldn't read the fine print where it told me do not attempt, professional driver on a CLOSED course, on my large screen tv.

[jamal]

KOM on a downhill on the road just shows everyone else how fat you are anyway.


That describes my home town every single day. You should see some of the midlife crisis Heads down speedsters around here. They take themselves and each other out on a regular basis.


What is the point of posting that video? 100% the driver's fault there.

[Hott Butt Mud]

Strava just updated their Terms and Conditions. Just got an email. Sounds like their legal team has been busy today!

"What's changed? The updated terms clarify things related to our mobile apps, as well as real-world races and events that you might participate in that use Strava's site."

[telebobski]

Fuck oh dear...

Why doesn't the family sue the guy who posted the faster time ("Fast guy") that "forced" the hyper-competitive douche ("Douche") to ride beyond his ability and kill himself?

Makes as much sense as suing strava for letting Fast Guy post his time in cyberspace :nonono2:

Gotta wonder if this suit is being brought by Douche's life insurance co.

[creaky fossil]

I think the lawsuit is bullshit

but...

if Strava is actually offering prizes for top finishers on popular routes (not sure about this, but it's mentioned in the article) then they're treading into sketchy territory. Especially for road biking, I'm not sure holding what is effectively an ongoing race on open roads where no one else knows people are racing is a good idea. Agro road weenies + unaware drivers / pedestrians is not a great combination.

Yep, especially in "It's Always Someone Else's Fault" America. I'd be advising Strava to expect such litigation if they advance competitive situations in their marketing.

It can get expensive defending what appear to be meritless lawsuits. Trial judges hate to award S/J so you'll often pay for discovery etc on suits you shouldn't even have to defend... if you weren't in "It's Always Someone Else's Fault" America!

[toast2266]

This is the basic 'website (is/is not) responsible for the content' lawsuit. This is like the lady in Park City who used google maps and wandered onto a road and got ran over and sued google..


Sort of, but not really. If a website holds a competition that blatantly encourages illegal activity (for example: "world's best poacher contest - a competition to kill all the wolves"), is the website liable? I would think so. Or what if a website exactly like Strava was created, but was geared towards cars and motorcycles? Would there be a problem with creating a public forum wherein users are encouraged to beat each other's times for different routes? I think that has some pretty clear liability issues as well (although others may disagree).

Now I don't think Strava blatantly encourages any illegal activity (and therefore shouldn't be liable), but I'm certainly not surprised that some people (especially in America, as CF says) interpret it differently. Strava presents a set of circumstances that encourages agro grape smugglers to act recklessly in an attempt to beat records. I still think the blame should fall squarely on douchebag users, but Strava is on pretty thin ice.

Also, for clarity: I'm referring to the other issue noted in the article, where someone competing for a Strava title mowed down an elderly pedestrian. If someone just kills themselves while Strava-ing they can get fucked. Like woo said - Strava doesn't operate their brakes for them.

[telebobski]

Strava just updated their Terms and Conditions. Just got an email. Sounds like their legal team has been busy today!

"What's changed? The updated terms clarify things related to our mobile apps, as well as real-world races and events that you might participate in that use Strava's site."

I don't know what they had in their terms/conditions back when Mr. Hyper-Competitive Douche killed himself, but the terms I see on their app Ts-Cs are pretty clear. Basically sez athletic activities like cycling are dangerous and you may end up dead or injured, user assumes all such risk, and by using the software and website agree to hold Strava harmless.

See screenshots from my iPhone of the language. I haven't updated any apps for at least a week so, I don't think my attachments include what HBM just received.

I didn't snap the section that talks about how the waiver does not apply in jurisdictions that don't allow limitation of liability. Don't know if California law waives this kind of liability limitation - legal mags can chime in.

Suit seems totally bogus to me but IANAL

117529117530117531

[XtrPickels]

Strava Segments are all user-created.
They don't actually create the competitions, just host what other people dream up.

Does Verizon or Samsung get sued when someone dies because they were texting while driving?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

That describes my home town every single day. You should see some of the midlife crisis Heads down speedsters around here. They take themselves and each other out on a regular basis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxyWIe6J2rY

A car pulls out in front of an oncoming road cyclist, who is riding in a bike lane, and it's the cyclists fault for getting hit? how? That car should not have pulled out until the cyclist passed. If the cyclist was a car, and the car couldn't stop in time because the other one pulled out in front of it, who's fault would it be?

[telebobski]

A car pulls out in front of an oncoming road cyclist, who is riding in a bike lane, and it's the cyclists fault for getting hit? how? That car should not have pulled out until the cyclist passed. If the cyclist was a car, and the car couldn't stop in time because the other one pulled out in front of it, who's fault would it be?

While the pickup shouldn't have "cut the corner" so much, it sorta looks to me like cyclist could have avoided a world of hurt by drifting out of the bike lane about a foot - looks to be plenty of room to do that. Tri-geek with head down not paying attention?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

While the pickup shouldn't have "cut the corner" so much, it sorta looks to me like cyclist could have avoided a world of hurt by drifting out of the bike lane about a foot - looks to be plenty of room to do that. Tri-geek with head down not paying attention?

I wouldn't say "tri geek not paying attention"...I'd say "asshole pickup truck driver not paying attention".

who knows...hard to really say without being there (or actually being the cyclist). But the bottom line is (IMHO anyway), that the car shouldn't have pulled out until the cyclist had passed. If you start / stop the video by using the pause button, it looks like a total of about 2 whole seconds from when the car started to slowly pull into the bike lane. From the cyclist's point of view, at that point, when you see the truck begin to slowly pull out, you really don't know WTF the driver is going to do...I could imagine the cyclist thinking "he see's me. he see's me" thinking that the truck will stop and not pull out since the cyclist has the right of way, so if he had swung out to riders right and the truck did stop, he would have smacked it. I guess as a precaution he could have swung out a little to rider's left, into oncoming traffic (even though it doesn't appear there was any), but even then the cyclist doesn't know if the driver is suddenly going to step on it and pull out even quicker because he suddenly sees the cyclist. 2 - 3 seconds is not a lot of time to have all those scenarios run through your head and make a decision which hinges on guessing on what the oncoming pickup driver is about to do. Tough situation.

[MTT]

While the pickup shouldn't have "cut the corner" so much, it sorta looks to me like cyclist could have avoided a world of hurt by drifting out of the bike lane about a foot - looks to be plenty of room to do that. Tri-geek with head down not paying attention?

That is exactly why I posted it. Most of US 40 through Verdi is void of side traffic, however for about 300 yards right there there a multiple parking lots on both sides of the road.

The bike people here (And there are MANY) get caught up in pressing for a fastest time? get heads down in a trance. And are no longer looking. I have had a few of them blow by me doing north of 50 MPH comming within inches. As in if you made one false move they would take you out. And I see Bike on Bike chrashes pretty much every week up here.

Its cool living in a place that is pretty much a race track for road bikes but some get a little to serious.

I think the vid is Funny as shit.. That dude was hauling ass past a big factory, the post office and General Store without ever looking up.

How fast do you think that bike was traveling?

Speed limit is 35 there

[sfotex]

Sort of, but not really. If a website holds a competition that blatantly encourages illegal activity (for example: "world's best poacher contest - a competition to kill all the wolves"), is the website liable? I would think so. Or what if a website exactly like Strava was created, but was geared towards cars and motorcycles? Would there be a problem with creating a public forum wherein users are encouraged to beat each other's times for different routes? I think that has some pretty clear liability issues as well (although others may disagree).

Now I don't think Strava blatantly encourages any illegal activity (and therefore shouldn't be liable), but I'm certainly not surprised that some people (especially in America, as CF says) interpret it differently. Strava presents a set of circumstances that encourages agro grape smugglers to act recklessly in an attempt to beat records. I still think the blame should fall squarely on douchebag users, but Strava is on pretty thin ice.

Also, for clarity: I'm referring to the other issue noted in the article, where someone competing for a Strava title mowed down an elderly pedestrian. If someone just kills themselves while Strava-ing they can get fucked. Like woo said - Strava doesn't operate their brakes for them.


I heard they're going after the Guinness Book of Records next.

I've been taking a lot of EPO and Roids in order to beat the local Strava record, and I got all Mayweather on my wife the other day. I'm planning a lawsuit.

[telebobski]

Cool - Two seemingly reasonable mags have polar opposite views of the same event


I wouldn't say "tri geek not paying attention"...I'd say "asshole pickup truck driver not paying attention".

who knows...hard to really say without being there (or actually being the cyclist). But the bottom line is (IMHO anyway), that the car shouldn't have pulled out until the cyclist had passed. If you start / stop the video by using the pause button, it looks like a total of about 2 whole seconds from when the car started to slowly pull into the bike lane. From the cyclist's point of view, at that point, when you see the truck begin to slowly pull out, you really don't know WTF the driver is going to do...I could imagine the cyclist thinking "he see's me. he see's me" thinking that the truck will stop and not pull out since the cyclist has the right of way, so if he had swung out to riders right and the truck did stop, he would have smacked it. I guess as a precaution he could have swung out a little to rider's left, into oncoming traffic (even though it doesn't appear there was any), but even then the cyclist doesn't know if the driver is suddenly going to step on it and pull out even quicker because he suddenly sees the cyclist. 2 - 3 seconds is not a lot of time to have all those scenarios run through your head and make a decision which hinges on guessing on what the oncoming pickup driver is about to do. Tough situation.

Versus


That is exactly why I posted it. Most of US 40 through Verdi is void of side traffic, however for about 300 yards right there there a multiple parking lots on both sides of the road.

The bike people here (And there are MANY) get caught up in pressing for a fastest time? get heads down in a trance. And are no longer looking. I have had a few of them blow by me doing north of 50 MPH comming within inches. As in if you made one false move they would take you out. And I see Bike on Bike chrashes pretty much every week up here.

Its cool living in a place that is pretty much a race track for road bikes but some get a little to serious.

I think the vid is Funny as shit.. That dude was hauling ass past a big factory, the post office and General Store without ever looking up.

How fast do you think that bike was traveling?

Speed limit is 35 there

Not to get into a pissing match, but the vid started when the driver left the curb cut. The collision occurred at 0:06. So cyclist had five seconds to deal with the truck. I didn't see him vary his line by an inch or slow his cadence at all. Can't tell if his head was up or down.

I agree with Tyrone that it's really tough sometimes to figure out what a car is going to do and take evasive action - that's largely why I don't ride on the road anymore, even here in "bike friendly Portland". When I did, my head was always on a swivel during training rides. Even then I hit an opening car door, went over the hood of a car and over the trunk of another when drivers did incredibly stupid things. Doesn't matter if you are right or wrong - cyclist ALWAYS loses in collision with a car. Fortunately came away from all three with only bruises, road rash and fucked up front wheels.