60-ish Liter Backcountry Ski Pack? (Aether 60?)

[AKbruin]

I'm looking for a pack capable for multiday trips, but which will most often be used on overnighters in the spring--e.g., for Shasta or the Eastern Sierra without a smaller summit pack. I have an Arc'teryx Khamiski, which purports to be 47 liters (~3000 ci). It's a great pack but a little bit too small. I always seem to end up having various crap that I can't fit and have to attach precariously to the exterior. I also have a Bora 80, which is also a great pack but too big for my purposes. Ideally, the pack I'm looking for would have the following features:


*60-65L capacity
*An ice axe loop
*A pouch/compartment for conveninet shovel and probe access
*A functional ski carry system (something comfortable for booting up a couloir and/or bushwacking in ski boots for a couple miles).
*A camelback system would be nice but isn't critical
*Doesn't break the bank


The Osprey Aether 60 (http://www.rei.com/product/795621/osprey-aether-60-pack) looks like an ideal candidate, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of a dedicated ski-carry system. I assume people just use the compression straps to A-frame the skis. Any thoughts on the ski-carry ability of this pack?

Thanks in advance.

[Hugh Conway]

most any pack with an ice axe loop can be modified to carry skis off the back

[time2clmb]

I have the Aether 60. Best pack i've owned. Have used it for multi day ski mountaineering and some summer overnighters so far. For winter use the external pouch holds a shovel securely and is a good fit. Carrying skis works fine with the compression straps on the side. I would definately recommend this pack, and the weight is good for it's size. Lid also comes off and turns in to a fanny pack if you're in to that sort of thing.

[freak]

*60-65L capacity
*An ice axe loop
*A pouch/compartment for conveninet shovel and probe access
*A functional ski carry system (something comfortable for booting up a couloir and/or bushwacking in ski boots for a couple miles).
*A camelback system would be nice but isn't critical
*Doesn't break the bank



ive been using the arcteryx arrakis (50, but tall version, so its nearly 60l) for the same purpose, and it fits all your requirements, except it isnt cheap. basically great pack though, just overpriced and i cant get why it only has one ice-axe loop -.-
other than that, a friend of mine uses the osprey as well and seems to have no problem carrying skis for a while. you can fix them very stable into the compression straps, even if i fear they might just rip out of the pack at some point, especially if youre carrying the boots in the bindings often/for longer periods...

freak~[http://www.freeskiers.net/community/images/smilies/fish.gif&http://www.freeskiers.net/community/images/smilies/ghost.gif]

[goldenboy]

I had an aether pack and it was probably one of the worst packs I've ever owned. Just never fit me, and it definitely didn't carry skis well. Happy to have switched to a deuter pack. You might want to check this thread out, I was asking some of the same questions a couple years back. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/205757

[rod9301]

I had the aether 60 pack, and I like it, except for being pretty tall, my head kept hitting the top of the pack.
O use now a 40 l pack and I attach two large pockets on each side.this allows me to overnight, and still have a good pack for peak skiing.
I got the pockets at mchale packs directly.

[harpo-the-skier]

I like my Cilo Gear 60L Pack. They make a shovel pouch you can buy seperately and attach to the pack. Adding straps for diagnol or pyramid ski carry is easy (PM me for details). Not to expensive and it can be stripped down for day trips.

My BD Anarchist is also good for multidays, but it is a bit smaller at about 42l.

[AKbruin]

Thanks, folks.

GoldenBoy- I did read your thread. Your and Rod's comments have convinced me that I need to get in a store with a weighted pack to ensure that it fits.

[couloirman]

I like my Cilo Gear 60L Pack. They make a shovel pouch you can buy seperately and attach to the pack. Adding straps for diagnol or pyramid ski carry is easy (PM me for details). Not to expensive and it can be stripped down for day trips.


Same here. I love every cilogear pack I have. I have 2 20L leader packs, the 45L, and the 60. Great packs that are super lightweight and comfy as heck.

[hemas]

My pick will be BlueIce 60 l
http://www.blueice.com/en/products/blue-ice-60l

Pretty much the same as their 45 liter version, but bigger.

The only thing it is missing is the avygear pouch.

I'm using their 30 liter version myself for daytours. Seems to work fine and is light enough.

[brown9]

Same here. I love every cilogear pack I have. I have 2 20L leader packs, the 45L, and the 60. Great packs that are super lightweight and comfy as heck.

Agreed on the cilogear. The 40 and 45L are full bodied to do a couple nights. Also made in the fkna USA. Osprey...not.

[timmaio]

My Cilogear 45L will certainly carry a shit ton of gear, I recently used it to carry all the gear and food needed on the approach for 4 days in RMNP for skiing as well as a small rack and rope, crampons and ice axe.

However, for that much weight the suspension SUCKS. My Cold Cold World Chaos(roughly 65L) handled so much better it was night and day, carried skis better and I liked the gear loops on the harness.

The CCW Chaos does not compress down as well as the CiloGear 45L and the hipbelt is not removable like the CiloGear, but for the trip above the CCW beat the Cilogear hands down.

Also CCW is made in USA AFAIK

[hafilax]

I was shopping for something similar this year and went with the Osprey Variant 52. More of a mountaineering pack but works well for skiing.

Haven't used it a whole lot yet so I can't give a definitive review but it does fit me way better than my old A'T bora 40.

Sent from my GT-I9000M using TGR Forums

[Kire2008]

Little smaller than you listed, other than that Seems to have everything your looking for and the price is right on it.

REI Pinnacle 50 Pack
http://www.rei.com/product/816103/rei-pinnacle-50-pack

I second the Osprey Variant. I have the 37 L version. If your a good packer and go light it works as an over night pack.

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

AKBruin - I honestly think you just need to re-evaluate what you are carrying. That Khamiski is a 47L that even extends a bit up top to 50L. I have the Arcteryx Borea 50L (not not the Bora but the Borea). I have been able to use it on 7 day tours, 5 day tours, etc... For an overnight, there is boat-loads of room with cleaver packing.

Nick

[AKbruin]

Thanks, UCL. The truth is that I have indeed reevaluated what I'm carrying and have come to the following conclusions: (a) I can't afford to replace my existing gear with smaller, lighter gear (or, at least, it's easier for me to buy a new bag than new everything else); (b) I like to have have room to spare in my bag (i.e., I don't like precise, Tetris-style packing to the brim, which I suck at anyway); (c) I'm not all that confident that my current pack is in fact 47 (it seems smaller); and (d) I'm totally okay with having a big, heavy pack. Anyhow, I'd rather have a 63L bag with room to spare than a 47L bag stuffed to the gills and/or with crap dangling off it.

[Kire2008]

As much as people love to rave about packing so efficiently, the truth is when your dead tired and packing up camp, you pack like shit and nothing ever fits the way it did on the way in.

UCL you could overnight in a 10L pack, just hang a bunch of crap on the outside.

Get over being a weight pussy and do some more training.

[JAREDS]

I have the osprey variant 52L.
an FYI - I am 6'1" and assumed I would be a Large.
When they sized me at the shop I was squarely in a Medium which I was surprised about but after a solid year of it i can say it's fitting well.
Btw I love the pack.

[bodywhomper]

i have the first version of the aether 60, which is pretty different than the current model. mine has rods on the side that serve as the pack suspension. when i have very little in my pack, the gear compressed down, and i am skiing steep snow, the rods kinda poke me in the back of the head (i.e., my head is tilted back a bit). this is not something that i notice when checking out the pack in the store. for me, this may be an issue if i had a helmet. currently, it's more of an annoyance. i'm not sure if the "peripheral rods" in the current model would have the same issue.

i was always under the impression that there was no standard in measuring pack volumes. I always perceived Arc'teryx packs as having larger in actual volume than the equivalent osprey pack.

cheers

[AKbruin]

UCL knows what he's talking about. Part of packing efficiently is experience--i.e., knowing what's needed and not, how much, and how to pack it. UCL does enough multi-day tours that I'm confident that he knows what he's doing.

Anyhow, I tried the Aether 60 out at REI yesterday. Like JAREDS, I thought the medium fit better even though I usually go for large (6'). I was impressed by its various features, which are notably absent from my austere Arc'Teryx packs. In particular, the straps running down the front of the pack seem ideal for carrying skis. Indeed, they seem superior to the A-frame style in which the skis constantly hit the backs of my legs. I also got the impression that Osprey packs are less bombproof than Arc'Teryx. I'll probably pick one up before the REI sale ends but I still want to do a little more research.

I don't know where I can find Cilo packs.

[Skirotica]

A little big is the mountain Hardwear South Col. I really like this pack and have subbed it into my summer weekend backpacking trips until i find an ideal 55l ultralight.

The south col is 70L but has ice axe loops, and ski carry slots. Even has little clipper loops on belt for carry of screws, biners, etc.

[timmaio]

I don't know of anywhere that stocks the cilogear packs. You can check them out and order directly at cilogear.com

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

Thanks, UCL. The truth is that I have indeed reevaluated what I'm carrying and have come to the following conclusions: (a) I can't afford to replace my existing gear with smaller, lighter gear (or, at least, it's easier for me to buy a new bag than new everything else); (b) I like to have have room to spare in my bag (i.e., I don't like precise, Tetris-style packing to the brim, which I suck at anyway); (c) I'm not all that confident that my current pack is in fact 47 (it seems smaller); and (d) I'm totally okay with having a big, heavy pack. Anyhow, I'd rather have a 63L bag with room to spare than a 47L bag stuffed to the gills and/or with crap dangling off it.

Fair engough AK. In particular, point (a) obviously impacts things a bit. One of the easiest ways to save pack space for overnights is the sleeping system you use.

Reading some of the posts above, I would also second the Cliogear packs. Although pricey, they are bomber construction, measured accurately with size, carry great and actually don't weigh much. I have seen Harpo's bag and I can tell you it looks MUCH bigger than the literage suggests. Both Enginerd and I were pretty amazed that it was not actually a 60L pack. They definitely make awesome packs.

One other one I would throw out - Wildthings. They recently re-did their entire line (and similar to Mystery Ranch, they have very big miltary contracts so do a lot of that work). All made in the USA. Anyway, the the Andinista is a very popular pack amoung alpinists for single-push big wall alpine climbing (think Rupal Face by House and stuff like that). The range on the pack is pretty impressive: Volume: 3000 c.i. (49 liters) fully compressed to 5500 c.i. (90 liters) expanded. 3 lbs 8 oz without the bivy pad. I have never used one of these, but heard good things about them. You pay a premium for Cliogear, but likely can shave a little weight off it.


And to Kire2008 - I can't stand having stuff hanging outside the pack. In particular, worse is when others above a climb or skin track rock that setup - I am just looking up waiting for that crap to come flying down like missles. The only thing I typically rock on the outside is a rolled-up 3/4 blue foamie.

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

AK - here is a link to what I was talking about:

http://www.wildthingsgear.com/catalog/product/view/id/3571/s/andinista-pack/category/5/?color=light grey
W

Would be curious how the similarly sized Cliogear packs weigh up. Although I think Cliogear is making some all-dynema pack which is crazy light (can't think how that affects suspension).

If you don't care about actual empty pack weight and want bomber suspension, just get Mystery Ranch (e.g., new "Dana Designs"). They are amazing quality and will last a lifetime.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

AKBruin - before you dive in and buy that Osprey pack, which is probably just fine, I got nothing against Osprey and they're warranteed forever, look into the Gregory Z55 and Z65.

I have a Z55 which is my summer multi-night backpacking pack and winter overnighter. The Z65 is basically the same pack with a larger pack bag.

I love the suspension and frame on these packs. It's very small and form-fitting but has excellent waist straps for carrying good loads. When the pack is near empty it compresses down very small, it's like carrying a day pack. Skis very well, no worse than my Switch 26 ski pack. The external pocket works great for shovel and probe. I thought these packs were more comfortable than the Osprey packs too.

You could rig something up for a diagonal carry on these packs but I solve the leg-bang problem by simply making sure the skis are high enough up on the pack when A-framing that they won't hit my legs. Makes things interesting when climbing through trees/brush but it's not that often that I'm doing that.

Anyway, good luck with your pack search!

[Kire2008]

UCL, i am not a big fan of hanging stuff either. What kind of gear are you using for a 5-7 day trip that allows you to use a 47L pack. I am all down for reducing the load but food takes up a ton of space when your going out that long. I am curious how you can pack all winter gear/ski gear down into 47L with all the food.

You super pack efficient people impress me.

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

Kire - sorry I just saw this. Well, a lot depends on the trip itself, location, etc.. The key to packing light is obviously going at the correct time in a good weather window - as I find this is one of the most important elements in going with light shelter/sleeping systems. At least here in the High Sierra, most of my long multi-day tours have been in the late spring in high pressure windows that are fairly predictable.

I guess I would point to the last multi-day tour I took last May in the Evolution Range. There were two of us and it was planned for 5-days, but we knew weather was moving in on the 5th day. Utlimately we bailed on the night of the 4th, but had packed for 5 days. This is all from memory, so definitely not exact:

I. In Pack (pack was 50L Arcteryx Borea)

- Sleeping Bag - 0 degree Western Mountainering Kodak in smallest sil compression sack I can fit it in (a M I think). Eningerd took a 20 degree FF bag. I was going to go warmer, but scared off by the forecasted temps. This is one of the biggest areas to save weight. First, buying the lightest and most compressible bag you can (note - mine doesn't have a gortex or any waterproof exterior or anything like that). Second, sometimes pushing the evelope a bit with temp ratings and sleeping in all of your clothes. Enginerd did this and was cold a couple of nights. One bit of advice, don't sleep with your puffy actually on. Drape it over you (either in our outside of the bag). Sleeping with it on just creates cold spots. I can't explain it, but it does.

- Patagonia Down Sweater - stuffed in its own pocket.

- Stove - jet boil (the smallest one). Typically one of us would carry the stove and the other would carry the fuel. For fuel, the key is getting the correct amount, which really depends ultimately on how much snow you are going to have to melt. Which in turn depends on whether you can find open water sources. We didn't count on being able to find open water, so took two small fuel cansisters. Ultimately, we could dig down in a couple of lakes and get water, so we had too much fuel.

- Lexan spork

- Headlamp w/ extra AAA batteries

- ACR Sarlink PLB

- First Aid/Repair Kit - for multi-day tours, we really strip this down to bare "essentials". Enginerd is WFR and I am WFA (and actually taking WFR next month). Not that it changes anything, but I think we really are taking stuff for serious injury for stabilization and evac, as well as stuff that will address bilsters on the feet. So this really is: (i) big boy pain meds (like 5-6 pills), (ii) headache meds (like 10 pills), (iii) 4 second skin blister pads and (iv) couple of gauze pads for serious bleeding. There may be a couple of other things medical, but not much. Then we have Skeletool between the two of us (I carried it) including a POSI and Torx heads for bindings. For repair, (i) very small amount of wire to fix a dynafit binding, (ii) some zip ties and (iii) duct tape (which is on each of our four ski poles). Then (i) one sunscreen for the two of us and (ii) one hand sanitizer for the two of us.

We split the above up into two piles and split it up. My 1/2 I carry in a mesh bag that a BD climbing harness comes in - very light.

- One extra pair of socks

- Mega Light in extremely small sil sack - this is our shelter. We stake it in the corners at night with our skis, and use our ski poles in the interior to construct it. Dig out the floor and build walls around the outside. This is a bomber setup that can sleep 4 comfortably, and for 2 people it is massive (and warm). When you don't take the center carbon pole that comes with it and use your poles instead (which I find is actually stronger and leaves more floor space), I think the weight is down to 1lb.

- 4L Dromlite Bladder - I typically put 2-3 liters in this and use it while touring and in the mid.

- 1L Nalgene - this is what I drink hot drinks out of and eat soup out of, etc.. Very good to bring as a backup incase your bladder gets a hole and you can't fix it with duct tape.

- Food - All in a sil stuff sack. This is obviously where the weight comes in and is a delicate balance between having energy and not carrying too much. Really just trial and error to your own body.

For breakfast (each day), I would have alloted (i) one packet of EmergenC, (ii) two packets of oatmeal and (iii) one tea bag. For the oatmeal, just pour hot water in it and eat it directly out of the bag. Use nalgene for hot drinks.

For lunch (each day, snaking throughout the day), I would have (i) 3-4 GUs, (ii) dried summer sausage, (iii) couple of handfulls of trail mix, (iv) cheese (first couple of days) and (iv) a Clif bar.

For dinner (each day), I would have (i) one freeze dried meal high in calories, low in fat and low in weight, (ii) one packet of hot apple cider powder, (iii) one EmergenC packet and (iv) one instant soup mix (a small one). Eat the freeze dried directly out of the bag. As it is hydrating (the key at alititude is to let it sit a LONG time to avoid stomach issues, throw it in your sleeping bag to warm it up.

You will note there are TON of liquids. That is key - basically always hydrating, even through your caloric intake. This tour we were between 10K and 11K basically the entire time (and above 12K up to around 13K a number of times). Hydrating is key.

- Shovel - G3 Avitech shovel

- Probe - 300cm BD Guide Probe

- Cord - 30 feet of 2mm cord w/ knots in it. For cutting cornices and really anything else you would need this for.

- Liners from BD Guide Gloves - not the leather outters, but just the primaloft liners for later at camp.

- Mountain Hardwear soft shell beanie

- Ski crampons - B&D (Enginerd didn't bring any, I did but never used them. I hate not having them, though).

II. Outside of Pack

- Sleeping Pad - 3/4 blue foamie rolled up. You save a lot of weight just taking this (inflatables weigh too much and take up too much pack space when ski touring). My system is to put my head at the top, and where it ends down by my thighs, dig a hole in the snow to put my pack in. I dig deep enough so it is even with the pad and use it as a "pad" for the rest of my body. Enginerd had a Z-lite cut 3/4 and does the same concept (with the bag for upper body instead).

- Lumix LX-3 camera

- BD Raven Ultra axe, in as small size as possible

III. Wearing or Carrying on Person

- Patagonia BD Guide Softshell Pants

- Merino base layer top and bottom

- Patagonia Softshell jacket - Either Ascensionist or Houdini (if it is going to be warm). Enginerd took a Houdini and can basically put that thing in his pocket. I took my Ascensionist, but when skiing basically stuffed it in the top of my pack.

- Baseball hat w/ bandanda

- Sunglasses

- Softshell gloves

- Topo map and compass in pants pocket.

I think that is it.

[AKbruin]

Thanks, UCL. That kind of info is super helpful.

I really, really want a Western Mountaineering Versalite bag, which I think would work in nearly all Sierra conditions. On the other hand, I'm reluctant to leave behind my heavy and bulky Big Agnes inflatable pad, which is the tits.

[timmaio]

This past trip I was very happy with the foam backpad from my pack and a womens 3 season inflatable pad. I put the foam pad under my torso and hips under the inflatable.

Nice list UCL, I'm in love with my Bibler Eldorado, but it sounds like I could save quite a bit of weight with the megamid(so long as I was fine with never leaving the shelter up while gone skiing)

[auvgeek]

Thanks, UCL. That kind of info is super helpful. +1. Guess your tent (or lackthereof) is really the biggest weight savings. Oh, and I definitely bring too much heavy food. That's one of the hardest parts for me - having enough food, but not too much.

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

Two changes to the above since I looked at pictures. (1) Rather than the Nalgene, I brought a plastic mug (not sure my thinking there). (2) We both had down booties which we kept in our compression sacks with the sleeping bag. Was also a result of the temp forecast, but I would not bring those again in practice. Too bulky and don't do much IMO. I would bring some down "socks" or something and wear them in my boot shells if I am walking around.

Timmaio - if you want to leave the shelter to go ski, we take it down and throw a couple of the large snowblocks on it. Due to the setup, it is fairly protected from the wind and with the blocks on top, you are good. If you are super worried, stake a corner with an axe as backup.

Some shots of the setup:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-O6RHH-YfNiY/Tc_zv0SQ4oI/AAAAAAAALRU/QpgYlOlGwO0/s800/P1020179.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1teqqo8phuI/Tc_zQ8Le56I/AAAAAAAALOA/ZU4Nj8A8mVw/s800/P1010968.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9WnYoXsC4Yg/Tc_zwaRRWQI/AAAAAAAALRc/QHpWX23zvxA/s800/IMG_0744.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ajbtvQ3fwJY/Tc_1GnhxNFI/AAAAAAAALZk/6fL-LiBabvA/s800/P1020518.JPG

[time2clmb]

We both had down booties which we kept in our compression sacks with the sleeping bag. Was also a result of the temp forecast, but I would not bring those again in practice. Too bulky and don't do much IMO. I would bring some down "socks" or something and wear them in my boot shells if I am walking around.



I use my down booties in camp on every trip down to -25C and can go much lower. Keeps the feet warm, cozy and dry and don't need to walk around in boot liners that you've been in all day...in which time they can be in the sleeping bag with a hot water bottle drying out (warming up really since I use VPL socks to keep the liners dry) for the next day. Booties are so nice to have.

[AKbruin]

Agreed. I think down booties may cross the line from treasured luxury to overnight necessity.

Along the lines of minimalism, I've always wanted to lug a small generator, a tv, and a Wii console to some popular overnight location--e.g., Lake Helen at Shasta--just to fuck with the other "mountaineers." Alternatively, I could bring some kind of mini bbq, charcoal, and meat to grill in the evening when everybody else is eating rehydrated crap.

[harpo-the-skier]

Cilogear makes some non woven dynema versions of their packs. On their bigger packs you save up to a pound of weight but they are more than double the price. Cilo says the big selling point is that they are more durable than the standard packs.

Mammoth Mountaineering carries cilogear packs, and they are very open to visitors at the portland factory.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

A lot of you guys have to deal with colder temps than we do around here, but I've been comfortable on overnight trips in my +20 Mountain Hardwear Down bag on nights that got down into the low double digits (10-12 degrees). The key is that I wear warm clothes inside the bag.

UCL - that's a pretty sweet setup!

[Summit]

I love my Aether 60


I had the aether 60 pack, and I like it, except for being pretty tall, my head kept hitting the top of the pack.
The newer ones have a half-bowl carved out to minimize that issue.

[Kire2008]

UCL, thanks for posting the detailed description and great photos. Its good to hear what other people are doing. Every time i go out I learn more about what I can and can't get away with. More trips are needed to refine my packing approach.

I have all very similar stuff minus that super lite shelter you have there. I should try better to organize my stuff.

[El Chupacabra]

AKBruin - before you dive in and buy that Osprey pack, which is probably just fine, I got nothing against Osprey and they're warranteed forever, look into the Gregory Z55 and Z65.


Z65 is on SAC right now, $127.

[harpo-the-skier]

Hi UCL,

I just saw your detailed light camping post.

Have you thought about a Thermarest Neoair inflatable pad?

I would like to see how you set up the mid sometime. Just one adjustable pole in the center, plus skis in the corners?

I will defenely cut down on my repair kit after reading yours.

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

Harpo -

1. For the pad, you can't beat a foamie in R-value to weight ratio. For snow camping where I can carve the snow even, it offers sufficient support. And at 3/4 length (or even shorter depending how long your pack is), it is super light. And doesn't pop...

2. For the mid, here is the basic process:

- Find flatish area not in avy runouts
- With skis on, stomp down a huge section of snow as much as possible (this will be key for cutting blocks later)
- Lay down mid and drawn line with a ski pole where the edges will be
- Remove mid and draw inner box inside of that outer line, usually with about 10 inches to a foot between lines. This will be the "shelves" later
- Step in the inner box (be careful not to step on your shelves) and start digging out square blocks.
- Stack each block on outside of the outer line, making snow walls. Note: Don't put them in the corners as you want the mid to stretch there. Also leave a couple of feet open in the front for a door
- Make them as high and sturdy as you feel comfortable. The benefit as well is you are diggging the living space deeper which equals warmer
- Flatten floor with shovels. Then one person gets in with skis and really flattens it out.
- Honestly if you can, leave in the sun for a bit. It will melt it out nicely and really sinter the floor and walls.
- Stake mid tight in corners with skis
- Here is the part that will be hard to explain (no center pole): Take 4 adjustable ski poles. You take two of them handle to handle, and put one handle through the strap of the other, and then take the strap of the first and put it back over the first handle. That way when you push the poles in opposite directions (towards the middle), the straps catch each other. Then I take 2 voile ski straps and tighten them VERY tight over the handle contraptions. So you now have a big extenable pole basically. Ski one end in the side wall right up to the interface of the wall and shelve (there is a hook in a mid there) and extend the poles up to the center top very tight. Then repeat on the other side.

The end result is it is tensioned very tight by the four corners to the skis, and one two walls by the ski pole locking mechanisms on two sides. Very bomber. Geoff Clark showed this to me (developed by Bela at ASI a long time ago I believe).

Hard to really write the pole thing, but I can show you in two seconds in person.

[bodywhomper]

wow, ucl. you've written up some very lengthy and super helpful posts! thanks a ton! i have a few questions, have you found your mid technique to always work in the sierra in the spring? in my experience, the stomping and digging technique hasn't always worked out, though, there's potential that i was too exhausted and hungry during those times to figure it out. i've always had problems where the snow is generally rotten-ish, is close to solid, or is (obviously) too shallow. Also, a multiday basecamp style during a warm spring period usually requires re-doing the mid-spot. when the stomping and walls technique works, it's worked really well for me.

if i'm not heading too far in and there's a mutual agreement w/ my partners about bailing if the weather turns sour, i am no longer using a shelter.

also, i've been skunked about 50% of my sierra spring multi-day trips by weather, a few times while out there and a few times where we made the (good) decision not to head into an approaching storm. because of this, i'm usually not comfortable going on a multiday w/o hardshell pants and jacket. several trips they've gone unused, but there's been a few times where i was really glad that i had them and one particular trip where i would have had some problems or, at least, the misery would have been much higher.

cheers

ps. somewhere out there is an account by some folks that guide outta bishop where they did a 13-day (based on my memory) ski traverse in AK w/ relatively small packs....