Buying my girl an XC ski set up.....don't know shit.

[VTsession]

So the plan is to do an XC ski set up for the lady for X-mas......skis, boots, bindings, poles. She f'd up her back this spring so downhill skiing might not be happening very much. I think she'll be doing mostly touring around Vermont. Some groomed trails, some not, no crazy backcountry up and down.

She's 5'7" so what ski size, width? Measuring poles? Boot/binding interface? Metal edges or not? A little direction is needed here. Thanks.

[XXX-er]

figure out exactly what/where she will be skiing, go to a local xc shop and get them to guide you thru buying the right gear renting some stuff and applying the rental to the new gear is a good idea

even if you know shit its hard, the ski swaps are happening but due to different systems needing the right flex yadayada IMO the xc swaps are more confusing than alpine swaps and around here at least from attending/helping with xc swaps in the last 5yrs there isnt much used xc gear to be had ... people have bought up all the used gear

[Big Steve]

Some groomed trails, some not, no crazy backcountry up and down.Classic, not skating, right?

As XXXer says, best to work with a local shop to get the correct cambered ski for her.

XC ski length is determined more by weight than height. Cambers vary from pair to pair.

IMO, for a 50/50 track/logging road ski, something with a waist between 47mm and 52mm is a good recreational ski. If she's going to slog on untracked roads, something even wider might be okay, but don't go wider than 65mm shovel lest it won't fit in the groomed trackes. On the other end of the spectrum, if she has an ice skating background and/or good athleticism and good balance consider something more sporty, e.g. Fischer Superlight, with a 44mm waist and slight sidecut. Superlights are really fun skis, more stable than javelin-tipped classic racing skis but still zip along on the tracks -- but they might be too sporty for an XC beginner.

There are several options for boot/binding systems. I have a bias for SNS, which I use on all my XC skis, racing, performance and logging road. But NNN and NNN-BC work fine. Don't skimp on boots. Cheap XC boots suck. IME, beginners fare much better on citizen racing level classic boots, which are designed for track racing but which work fine on logging roads.

Wax or waxless? In VT the snow is usually cold and fine grained, so kick waxing is usually not a hassle. Kick waxing for fresh cold snow below 28F is easy. Different story here in the PNW because we have wetter snow and more relief (and thus we might ski through 3 or 4 temp gradients on a logging road tour). Kick waxing for falling snow near freezing point is sometimes impossible, and waxless skis are the way to go. If she's out for fun and not speed, waxless is easy, but they are slow in cold snow. OTOH, waxless skis glide quite well in wet and warm snow.

[VTsession]

Classic, not skating, right?

As XXXer says, best to work with a local shop to get the correct cambered ski for her.

XC ski length is determined more by weight than height. Cambers vary from pair to pair.

IMO, for a 50/50 track/logging road ski, something with a waist between 47mm and 52mm is a good recreational ski. If she's going to slog on untracked roads, something even wider might be okay, but don't go wider than 65mm shovel lest it won't fit in the groomed trackes. On the other end of the spectrum, if she has an ice skating background and/or good athleticism and good balance consider something more sporty, e.g. Fischer Superlight, with a 44mm waist and slight sidecut. Superlights are really fun skis, more stable than javelin-tipped classic racing skis but still zip along on the tracks -- but they might be too sporty for an XC beginner.

There are several options for boot/binding systems. I have a bias for SNS, which I use on all my XC skis, racing, performance and logging road. But NNN and NNN-BC work fine. Don't skimp on boots. Cheap XC boots suck. IME, beginners fare much better on citizen racing level classic boots, which are designed for track racing but which work fine on logging roads.

Wax or waxless? In VT the snow is usually cold and fine grained, so kick waxing is usually not a hassle. Kick waxing for fresh cold snow below 28F is easy. Different story here in the PNW because we have wetter snow and more relief (and thus we might ski through 3 or 4 temp gradients on a logging road tour). Kick waxing for falling snow near freezing point is sometimes impossible, and waxless skis are the way to go. If she's out for fun and not speed, waxless is easy, but they are slow in cold snow. OTOH, waxless skis glide quite well in wet and warm snow.

Wow, this seems to be more complicated than I originally thought. I may have to head to a shop and have her fitted, so much for making it a surprise. I had no idea camber and shape varied that much from ski to ski. I guess its not like buying alpine skis. Thanks for this info.

[Big Steve]

I didn't intend to spook you. Selecting recreational XC skis is not that complicated. A local shop will make it easy.

I'll repeat: Don't skimp on boots!

[wooley12]

My experience. 40 years of it. Before you go to a shop, get some knowledge. I've seen name shops misdirect before. WAXLESS. But you should hot wax the un-patterned part ala a down hill ski. Metal edge skis on the narrow side are flatter and easier to learn on. If she's athletic, that need may not apply. If you buy the Salomon binding (SNS)you'll need Salomon boots. They do their own thing. Other brands are more standard. Ski flex is the important fit factor. Heavier skiers need a stiffer flex. A good shop will have a way to measure you and suggest a ski. For a beginner, err on too soft. Too soft=more grip, too stiff=more glide as a general rule depending on snow conditions.

Boot fit- Should fit like a comfortable hiking boot.

Oh, and get used to skiing in the back seat. Take a lesson to accelerate the learning curve.

[wooley12]

Want to surprise her? Just go to a shop and tell them "she's this high and her waist is this big" :) Just go in with her weight and shoe size to get her fitted. Then go back after your surprise presentation and try on some boots if a change is needed. I'm a big fan of $20 craigslist skis and 3-pin boots but those boots are getting hard to find.

[ncSpreadhead]

Bump for being in the same exact boat. After reconstructive knee surgery downhill skiing is out of the picture for my girlfriend, but she is keen to try XC. She wants to do skate style though, which looks more fun. Good luck

[wooley12]

Skate= running Classic=hiking

[LHutz Esq]

Well if done right, imho
Skating = biking, Classic = running

Before spending $$ on skate gear I would do a lesson together.
1 - skating is not as intuitive as classic so has a steeper learning curve.
2- some people with knee problems have problems with skating
3 - learning the proper weight shift from the start will make her progression that much better
4- you should be able to get a deal on rentals with your lesson so you would have a chance to scope out what fits her and what she likes.
5- if she hates it you can come up with something else (or you could come up with someone else)

[coldfeet]

Skate limits you to groomed trail systems (there are people, not me, who can skate in the BC on crust, which seems awesome, but not for beginners). If you want to get out in the woods or logging trails then classic is more versatile.

You can do classic XC on pretty much anything, including yard sale skis and last years' rentals (what we bought when I was a kid), and have fun, but it's better on gear that fits right. Stiffness/flex matters because the ski is decambered (pressed down) by your weight when you kick, and then lifts up a little as you unweight it during the glide. Wider skis and metal edges are nice for going outside of tracks, but too wide and they don't fit in groomed tracks.

It's all relatively inexpensive compared to alpine and so are the rentals, and trail fees at XC centers compared to lift tickets, so get out and experiment.

IMO waxless is a lot easier to deal with than wax for beginners and waxless patterns are pretty good now with good glide, but I have never lived in a place with the consistent snow that makes waxing easy.

[scottyb]

All good info/advise so far. I will second the "get good boots" idea. After going around with boots for my wife we finally found some Fishers that fit her tiny but wide feet.

The current crop of wider, metal edge, pattern skis are pretty decient. I have Fishers and the old Karhu Guides, the former has pockets in the grip zone and the latter has scales in the grip zone. Each works well in its own way.

As others have said the weight of the skier is as important for length as well as ability. If she has knee issues I would stay away from skate for now. The old dollar bill trick on carpet is still valid for sizing track skis.

I also go totally retro on some Asnes woodies which I love for track skiing many miles. Pine tar rules!

BTW if she is a size 5 I have a set of Scarpa T3 boots unused for cheapo.

Make sure to post up pics of her on her gear.

[Big Steve]

If you buy the Salomon binding (SNS)you'll need Salomon boots. They do their own thing. Other brands are more standard.Atomic also makes SNS boots. In the US, SNS and NNN sales are about 50/50 so don't fret about future availability. Anyway, get a good citizen race level boot that fits her the best and the binding system will follow. Both systems work fine. I'd stay away from NNN-BC because if she gets into XC skiing and wants to step up to higher performance classic track gear, she'll need new boots.

And, yeah, waxless makes sense for the first pair of XC skis. Metal edges are overkill for track skiing and 80% of road skiing.

ETA: T3's and Guides really fun for meadow skipping and logging roads, but they would be a poor choice for any groomed track skiing.

[XXX-er]

last year the old roomie came home with some nice skis & boots from the xc ski swap but they were skate ski and classic boots ...at least they were both SNS

BTW hi performance fish scales are pretty fast and take all the guess work out of waxing

[Big Steve]

I don't know what works in the colder finer grained snow back east and in the Rockies, but out here in the soggy PNW, Fischer Crown is the most popular waxless pattern. We've even had a few local classic races won on Fischer RCS Crowns on twilight zone days (i.e., falling snow near 32F/0C). Anybody else here on Fischer Superlights?

[Tye 1on]

i bought a girlyfriend a barely used package off of here for cheap, like $60, she loves 'em.

Here's (http://www.backcountry.com/store/dc/571/Backcountry-Cross-Country-Ski-Guide.html) a pretty good buying guide from our friends at BC.com. Seems pretty good from my experience.

If there is a good local shop nearby, i'd take a chance and buy skis/poles, and have a gift card for boots in it. They should be able to narrow down the skis close enough for you by height/weight...

[XXX-er]

I got tele-babe some salomon hi-po fish scales for the tracks and they worked really well in that the grip/glide/ease of use meant she skied classic a lot more than usual so I spent more $ on some atomic's but they didnt seem any faster for the extra 100$

awhile back a guy started a classic race on the waxable race skis , due to conditions everyone was sucking so badly that buddy was able to ski back a few km to his truck for his fishscales catch up and win the race

[VTsession]

Lots of great stuff here guys, learning a lot, thanks. So based the info here sounds like I'm looking for a "classic" waxless XC set up. Do waxless skis have a base material more like alpine skis? (less the fish scales) Skating doesn't sound like her style, she wants to do some of the trails she snow shoes, just gliding on skis.

[wooley12]

Lots of great stuff here guys, learning a lot, thanks. So based the info here sounds like I'm looking for a "classic" waxless XC set up. Do waxless skis have a base material more like alpine skis? (less the fish scales) Skating doesn't sound like her style, she wants to do some of the trails she snow shoes, just gliding on skis.

From what I hear, the expesive ones do (sintered bases), the cheaper ones may not (extruded bases-Won't hold wax well but slippery enough as is).

As a cross post from another forum, I'll relate my first XC experience"

"I remember my first XC skis. Bought them at a department store for my wife and I. All wood. Flimsy 3-pin bindings. The low cut boots were like bedroom slippers. The first day out the sun was shining, sky was blue and the temp was about 32 degrees. Slathered on the red wax. Out the back door and across the fields we went, my young bride and me. With each step a new layer of snow stuck to the bottom of our skis. Soon we were floundering in the warm, damp snow. We took off our skis, dug a snow cave and made love by candle light. Cross Country skiing is no fun without the right equipment."

Have fun!!

[Big Steve]

VTS, if they're waxless, they're classic.

What Wooley said. More expensive XC skis will have sintered bases. Cheaper skis will have extruded bases.

Talk to your local shop re what waxless pattern works for your local snow.

Getting the right camber is important for waxless skis. Too soft camber will make for a horridly slow ski. Too stiff and the skier (especially a beginner) won't be able to engage the pattern into the snow. Most recreational level waxless skis are too soft IMO. Find someone in the shop who cares about getting Honey set up with the right camber.

Have fun. XC skiing can be joyous thing.

[nihiles]

thanks VTSESSION for starting this thread, learned alot.

despite not knowing anything i have been hunting a cheap xc setup since my knee surgery last past february.
originally i wanted to use it as a rehab tool but now i want it just to take advantage of local snow. for whatever reasons, i want to go 3 pin with leather boots. i was hoping i would stumble onto a forum of adamant old timers unchanging in their way but no such luck. anyone got any info? know any places ive overlooked?

tia

[Big Steve]

nihiles, the current crop of 3-pin boots is skimpy. I think Alicio and Crispi still sell leather 3-pin boots.

[coldfeet]

thanks VTSESSION for starting this thread, learned alot.

despite not knowing anything i have been hunting a cheap xc setup since my knee surgery last past february.
originally i wanted to use it as a rehab tool but now i want it just to take advantage of local snow. for whatever reasons, i want to go 3 pin with leather boots. i was hoping i would stumble onto a forum of adamant old timers unchanging in their way but no such luck. anyone got any info? know any places ive overlooked?

tia

Although the telemarktips.com forum is more oriented toward heavier telemark and BC skiing, people on it typically know a lot about cross-country. And they are pretty crusty.

You can also have a look at DAVE'S NORDIC BACKCOUNTRY SKIING PAGE (http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html) which has a lot of info on heavier 3-pin boots and skis, the kind you would use for kicking around in the woods, more than skiing on prepared tracks.

3-pin gear kind of falls into two categories: (1) "track" - light XC skis, light duty bindings, boots that have a thin duckbill, typically flexible leather shoes; (2) "touring" - heavier skis, usually wider and with metal edges, heavy duty 3 pin bindings like the Voile, and heavier leather (or plastic) boots. The heavier boots have a thicker duckbill and won't fit into an old lightweight 3-pin binding. Category 1 has gotten replaced by system bindings like NNN or SNS, and category 2 is sort of light-telemark gear. The main advantage of category 1 is that the skis are nearly free at yard sales etc, but boots in good condition that fit are rarer. The heavier Category 2 stuff isn't going to be as fast or glide as well but it is awesome for getting out on snowed-over trails and so on.

[Tye 1on]

for whatever reasons, i want to go 3 pin with leather boots. i was hoping i would stumble onto a forum of adamant old timers unchanging in their way but no such luck...

tia


nihiles, the current crop of 3-pin boots is skimpy. I think Alicio and Crispi still sell leather 3-pin boots.

word. Many of us adamant old timers prefer better performance over nostalgia.The boot/binding systems have come far enough that there's no functional reason to stick w/3-pins. Having said that, just came across my old Asolo doubles, don't use them, but will be damned if i toss them out! ;)

[scottyb]

FY! link to ad on Ttips, they are mine.

http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=78807

[buttahflake]

i know you spend a fair amount of time in southern VT. i would check out West Hill shop in Putney. it's exit 4 I91. you can actually see it from the highway. they have Nordic truly dialed. it's also a damn good bike shop. plus Curtis's BBQ stand is right up the hill. his stuff is the dopeness!

[Alpinord]

A few random thoughts came to mind reading the previous good info and relative to skiing with my wife:

1) Liquid or spray glide wax (http://www.slidewright.com/weblog/ski-snowboard/waxing-ski-snowboard/waxless-xc-or-bc-skis-are-not/) on patterned or scaled 'waxless' after cleaning is a good idea. It keeps the snow or ice from building up and does help glide.
2) Skate skiing on crust is a blast. Depending on time of year, conditions and locations, skate skiing may become more appealing over time. Getting a good pair of boots that can XC and skate may save some cash later.
3) Get yourself set up as well. Touring with your sweetie is a good option to have in the bank (see wooley's post, no snow caves, yet, but lots of the 'quality time' :rolleyes2), especially if the alpine skiing sucks or there isn't enough snow yet, but too much to bike. You can ski on 6 to 12" of snow and have fun and keep in shape for alpine.
4) Depending on where you live, you may get out on skis more often if you do have XC/nordic options.
5) Great if you have dogs.
6) Low cost activity overall.
7) Full moon frisbee golf on XC or skate skis is a great excuse for a pot luck/party/bonfire. Everyone has a good time.
8) Adjustable poles can be used for touring if tall enough and for hiking as well.
9) A lot of your biking and hiking wear and gear are naturals for XC skiing.
10)....

For grip/kick wax applications, here's one primer (http://www.slidewright.com/weblog/ski-snowboard/waxing-ski-snowboard/wax-application-grip-kick-wax/).

[ak_powder_monkey]

Go to a shop and make sure you get the skis flexed right, especially if classic skiing, iding the wax pocket is pretty important as is having the correct wax pocket. I'd reccomend getting a solid combi boot and a pair of waxable classic and skate skis. Skate skiing is really really fun. I highly recommend it

[Big Steve]

Great comments, Alpinord. XC skiing can save a weekend that would be otherwise shitty due to bad conditions for alpine or touring.

AKpow, agree re the importance of the right camber for the skier's weight and experience, but IME Combi boots suck.

[XXX-er]

Never used combi boots, my last pair of used classic boots sucked so I been using skate boots for everything which got me out , but I scored a NICE pair of almost new high end Solly classic boots at the swap and I think I finally "get" the need for a good classic boot

The ski swap had less gear this year than last year as I expected but I scored, does anyone else volunteer for ski swaps just to get 1st tracks in the racks?

now to get hooked up with the alpine swap

[LHutz Esq]

The real difference in the classic and skate boot is the amount of flex in the sole. A good classic style has your flexing your foot to push the ski into the snow (to get grip out of the wax pocket). A good skating style has you pushing through the heel to keep the ski gliding along the top of the snow.

So a good classic boot will have more flex then a skate boot in the sole. In my experience a combi boot is usually set up with not enough stiffness to skate well in and not enough flex to classic well in. However, if you can't afford both they aren't a bad option if they fit well.

[Big Steve]

Yeah XXXer, that's why I recommended, if you go classic SNS or NNN, get citizen race boots or full race boots. Same with skate gear. Cheap skis can be fun. Cheap XC boots are never fun.

[wooley12]

thanks VTSESSION for starting this thread, learned alot.

despite not knowing anything i have been hunting a cheap xc setup since my knee surgery last past february.
originally i wanted to use it as a rehab tool but now i want it just to take advantage of local snow. for whatever reasons, i want to go 3 pin with leather boots. i was hoping i would stumble onto a forum of adamant old timers unchanging in their way but no such luck. anyone got any info? know any places ive overlooked?

tia

Us old timers guard our 3 pin stashes like others guard 45 deg., through the trees, powder stashes that are only a 300 yds from the road. I'm still skiing some mid-cut Merrell's I bought in '81. I did find these though and they're on the way to me know. Hope they fit.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6060/6290536236_1a3f1d98c6.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6049/6290021433_636ea5e853.jpg

[Alpinord]

Correction.....5" of snow on grass is the new official minimum at our back door 'nordic center'. This is the earliest we've been able to XC, ever thanks to two storms. Nice light fluff this AM on top of Saturdays moist base!

[XXX-er]

the local xc areas start to ski on 6" IF the trails are perfectly flat, we used to do maintenance because the mtn bikes also used the trails in summer so we would fix drainage V's and fill puddles but its gotta be down when the weather will be cold enough so the fix doesn't wash away

[Alpinord]

I'm talking 5" is all you need to jump on some skis and just go on a whim without any prep or trail maintenance:

102913

[XXX-er]

at 6" they will track using an old twin track skidoo ... the PB's would just tear everything up

[nihiles]

revive.

asolo extreme pro
black diamond 01
k2 work stinx

will it blend?


addit: i had planned to ask in teletips but the damned admin is taking forever to activate m account.