Intuition Luxury for Dynafit Titan? Gearing Up For Denali

[Kevo]

I'd like to swap my stock liners for intuition liners on my size 27 Dynafit Titans.

I have two considerations-

1- I feel like I have to crank my titans too tight to get the desired fit, resulting in pressure points, pain and lack of circulation. To me, this means the boots are too high volume.

2- I'll be using these boots to ski up to/down from ~14k on Denali this Spring. Warmth is of major importance. To me, this means I should consider something that will allow for more space.

Should I go with size 27 or 28? Also, what thickness would you guys think?

Thanks!

[marshalolson]

step 1 - bontex to raise foot in shell

[Kevo]

Jong question- Is bontex the shim that came in the box with the Titans?

FWIW, I did get a shell fit from a very, very reputable boot fitter in Boulder.

I'm also worried that the stock liners will not be warm enough for Denali, even if they do fit well.

[Bud]

ditto on adding a shim under your footbed to take up volume if needed but you can take the shims out when just milling around camp. so, you're not using these boots above 14k? Intuitition liners are certainly warm enough to use the whole way up the mtn...I used Int. liners and some dynafit TLT4's to climb Denali years ago and only needed overboots above 17k in May. Below that, i never had any serious warmth issues with my boots (but mine had a intentionally loose fit).

[Kevo]

Not planning to ski above 14K- will be caching gear skis/ski boots and using mountaineering boots from 14k-summit and back.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Titan TFX liner is quite high volume. I replaced them with Intuitions because they were too tight.

[Cosmic Suncloud]

the key thing is to keep your feet warm and functioning. the fit is secondary. go with a lighter boot if possible. if you use the titan make sure you have a really good intuition liner and ample circulation. (oops - didn't see that you aren't climbing in them)

[BFD]

two pairs of boots makes no sense. I'm a believer in a chemical heater for each day you plan to climb. The only time you will probably get cold feet is in the morning when you are waiting for everyone to get ready.

[QuikR12]

The titan stock liners blow to epic proportions... I haven't been able to check the fit of an intuition yet, but as soon as I am able, they are going in and not coming out. Titan liner to the gargage... I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I skied the intuitions last year in my dalbellos, and never had a cold toe, once. My feet are now cold all day, everyday. Fuck I hate those liners.

[pfluffenmeister]

TFX liners suck.

too soft, too heavy, waaaay too cold.

i put an intuition luxury liner (from a scarpa mobe) into mine. much happier.

stiffer, ~4oz. lighter per boot, and much warmer.

[Kevo]

I know the whole two boot thing sounds crazy, but I don't want to climb in ski boots, and I don't want to tour in climbing boots. We'll already have ~80-100 pounds of gear and food per person (just two of us going), what is another couple pounds for some boots that will climb really well? In addition, I don't want to deal with snow shoes on the lower glacier. Everyone say ski to at least 14k, so that is what I'm planning on.

Also, my favorite mountaineering boot/shoe company hooked me up with a free pair of awesome boots that climb really well.

The TFX liner does suck...it is miserable, and my feet have never been so cold. I'm thinking I'll go with the luxury liners, and put a shim in.

The question is weather to go medium or high volume. I'm thinking high volume+ big toe cap is the way to go.

[Bud]

plenty of folks do the two boot thing on Denali (though I still think its unnecessary, especially since you can find decent AT boots that are only a handful of ounces heavier than regular ol Koflach plastic mtneering boots). but yeah, you'll have enough heavy crap, that an extra pair of boots ain't gonna be a deal breaker.


How roomy is the fit in the shell of your Titan? I had enough room in my shells that I opted to not even cook the liners I used on Denali, the fit was comfy enough without cooking them and I had enough toe room and I didn't want to compress any of the foam that might make the boots potentially colder. Just make sure you have lots of wiggle room in the toe box. Since you aren't taking the boots above 14k, I wouldn't worry too much about it. At least from my limited experience, below 14k on Denali is cold, but not that bad (and hopefully you'll have a warm pair of down booties to wear while sitting around camp)....above 17k is when the temperatures can get dangerously cold. Good luck!

[Kevo]

plenty of folks do the two boot thing on Denali (though I still think its unnecessary, especially since you can find decent AT boots that are only a handful of ounces heavier than regular ol Koflach plastic mtneering boots). but yeah, you'll have enough heavy crap, that an extra pair of boots ain't gonna be a deal breaker.


How roomy is the fit in the shell of your Titan? I had enough room in my shells that I opted to not even cook the liners I used on Denali, the fit was comfy enough without cooking them and I had enough toe room and I didn't want to compress any of the foam that might make the boots potentially colder. Just make sure you have lots of wiggle room in the toe box. Since you aren't taking the boots above 14k, I wouldn't worry too much about it. At least from my limited experience, below 14k on Denali is cold, but not that bad (and hopefully you'll have a warm pair of down booties to wear while sitting around camp)....above 17k is when the temperatures can get dangerously cold. Good luck!

Thanks! The shell fit is about 1.75 fingers. I think I'll use a toe cap for extra wiggle room.

[My Pet Powder Goat]

1.75 fingers sounds like a 28 power wrap would be perfect. ...or you can take it slow and see if you cant fit your whole fist in there ;-)

[Mazderati]

I can't offer anything in the way of liner info, but this sounds like an awesome journey. At the risk of hijacking the thread, what kind of experience do you guys have in preparing for such a trip? Crevasses scare the shit out of me.

[Kevo]

^My buddy and I have climbed together for years. We've been over 5,000 meters together more than a dozen times. Two years ago we did an unguided trip to a remote peak in Nepal that is higher than Denali- we carried 65lbs each to above 6,000 meters and slept almost as high as the summit of Denali before our summit push.

We'll be doing a weekend crevasse refresher with a local IFMGA guide before heading out to brush up on our skills.

Edit- not trying to sound cocky in any way- Denali will be a huge undertaking and although the West Buttress is less technical than what we have climbed before, it will be tough given the cold factor.

[Mazderati]

Surely a remarkable trip in the making, especially with two people. Traditional rock climbing doesn't do it for me, but high altitude mountaineering really piques my interest. Good luck with the trip. Take some pics and be sure to post a TR when you get back.

[Huck_Schmuck]

^My buddy and I have climbed together for years. We've been over 5,000 meters together more than a dozen times. Two years ago we did an unguided trip to a remote peak in Nepal that is higher than Denali- we carried 65lbs each to above 6,000 meters and slept almost as high as the summit of Denali before our summit push.

We'll be doing a weekend crevasse refresher with a local IFMGA guide before heading out to brush up on our skills.

Edit- not trying to sound cocky in any way- Denali will be a huge undertaking and although the West Buttress is less technical than what we have climbed before, it will be tough given the cold factor.

I wanted to know too, thanks for posting. How about some pre-trip blogging as well as a TR, I'd read it...

[smthgfshy]

not too much snow up there this winter. nothing but bright sun for the last 6 or 8 weeks. mountain has been out everyday. VERY dry and mild winter here in TKA. hopefully you are going early. and good thinking about the crevasse refresher!!

[Kim Jong-un]

Thanks! The shell fit is about 1.75 fingers. I think I'll use a toe cap for extra wiggle room.

I'd go HIGH vol in 28. I have a MED Luxury one size up in a <1 finger fit and its been packing out perfect. And you have to use a toe cap or you will crush your toes. I use a double cap in boots I tour in. And a single in my alpine boots when molding. Good luck w the trip!

[Kevo]

not too much snow up there this winter. nothing but bright sun for the last 6 or 8 weeks. mountain has been out everyday. VERY dry and mild winter here in TKA. hopefully you are going early. and good thinking about the crevasse refresher!!

That's what I've heard. Also heard it was pretty windy- could be icy up there with exposed crevasses. We fly to the Kahiltna glacier 5/22


I'd go HIGH vol in 28. I have a MED Luxury one size up in a <1 finger fit and its been packing out perfect. And you have to use a toe cap or you will crush your toes. I use a double cap in boots I tour in. And a single in my alpine boots when molding. Good luck w the trip!

Thank for the info.

[grenalds]

I can't help with the liner size question really, but I think you got it right with the two-boot deal.

I think you will have zero issues using a comfortable liner to 14k coldwise. My main problem was using some Spantiks on the hike out/in (14 to basecamp). I had so much moisture/heat issues that my foot pruning became unbearably painful. I have cold feet. Unless you are going very early in the season…

Also: trying to ski down bullshit snow with a sled (maybe a rope too) with silvrettas and climbing boots is a joke. Complete fucking shit-show joke. I like your two boot system. There’s no better way to acclimate and get strong than skiing pow above 14 camp too!! I was very, very envious of those who brought dynafits. The snow they get above medical camp is Wasatch blower mang.

EDIT: re-read the thready for dates. you're gonna be fine.

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

Also: trying to ski down bullshit snow with a sled (maybe a rope too) with silvrettas and climbing boots is a joke. Complete fucking shit-show joke.

Agreed. However, if the OP is only skiing below 14K camp, may as well take a lighter boot if he has it (Titan is kinda overkill for that). However, not a deal breaker by any means.

[toiletduck]

Just wondering - why the Luxury not Pro Tour?

[Kevo]

I can't help with the liner size question really, but I think you got it right with the two-boot deal.

I think you will have zero issues using a comfortable liner to 14k coldwise. My main problem was using some Spantiks on the hike out/in (14 to basecamp). I had so much moisture/heat issues that my foot pruning became unbearably painful. I have cold feet. Unless you are going very early in the season…

Also: trying to ski down bullshit snow with a sled (maybe a rope too) with silvrettas and climbing boots is a joke. Complete fucking shit-show joke. I like your two boot system. There’s no better way to acclimate and get strong than skiing pow above 14 camp too!! I was very, very envious of those who brought dynafits. The snow they get above medical camp is Wasatch blower mang.

EDIT: re-read the thready for dates. you're gonna be fine.

Good to know! Thanks. We'll keep an eye out for the blowe snow. What are your thoughts on beacons? I suppose it isn't much extra weight- do other people on the mountain have/use them?

My other boots are Spantiks. Any thoughts on overboots for summit day? Did you use some? Which ones? Which ones are known to be good?


Agreed. However, if the OP is only skiing below 14K camp, may as well take a lighter boot if he has it (Titan is kinda overkill for that). However, not a deal breaker by any means.
I've thought about this, but I don't have a lighter boot. Will have a tech setup though.


Just wondering - why the Luxury not Pro Tour?
I seem to remember reading on wildsnow that the Pro Tour is lower volume than the medium luxury.

[grenalds]

[QUOTE=Kevo;3219658]Good to know! Thanks. We'll keep an eye out for the blowe snow. What are your thoughts on beacons? I suppose it isn't much extra weight- do other people on the mountain have/use them?

My other boots are Spantiks. Any thoughts on overboots for summit day? Did you use some? Which ones? Which ones are known to be good?[QUOTE]

For sure can't answer these questions for you. Much too personal. My thoughts though:

1. Don't think the weight of a beacon will make or break you on summit day. BUT if you get 'lanched going up to Denali Pass that beacon is for a body recovery - if there is a recovery. Big slides.

2. Everybody has a different foot situation, and you know better than anyone else. BUT it would be lame to turn around and not send on such a huge trip just because you didn't bring a piece of gear (overboots). Seems like a reasonable insurance policy to haul 'em up. I don't think you'll complain about having warm feet up high.

40 Below's products kick ass.
http://www.40below.com/product_detail_public.php?ProductID=6194

I guess I just kinda answered the questions anyway. Take all that with a big grain of salt please.

[Wirkola]

I swapped the standard titan liner (size 30,5) for an Intuition Power Wrap (size 31). Perfect fit. It raises the foot in the shell to increase width, I get more toe wiggle room and a better heel/ankle fit. And it is way warmer. I think it tours well with buckles undone. Not great on flats though.

[harpo-the-skier]

I think Lou on Wildsnow.com did a review of a new Forty Below overboot designed to work with boots with tech fittings. If you could get an overboot to work with both your Titans and your Spantiks, you could kill two birds with one stone. I am guessing the overboots desinged to work with the tech boots will work with standard mountaineering boots also.

[Shorty_J]

I'm not sure if it's lower volume or not, but if you want more space, crank the buckles down more during heat moulding.

I have Pro Tours in Titans and love it. MUCH warmer, MUCH better fit, and lighter. The articulation of the Pro Tour will be better as well.

Also I don't know what the inner surface of the luxury liner is like, but inner surface of the Pro Tour is much nicer than my old Power Wraps... much smother and not even the hint of a blister with the Pro Tours... couldn't say that with the rougher texture of the Power Wraps (but they were older).

[Kim Jong-un]

Also I don't know what the inner surface of the luxury liner is like, but inner surface of the Pro Tour is much nicer than my old Power Wraps... much smother and not even the hint of a blister with the Pro Tours... couldn't say that with the rougher texture of the Power Wraps (but they were older).

Yes, the Lux liner inner is the same or similar to the PT's and not as hard and "grabby" as the PW. And the PT's will flex more than the Lux.

One other tip. If you are home molding the Lux or PT, I have had the best results with heating from the inside (the rice method) whereas on the PW I prefer the oven. You'll also want another set of hands when inserting it into the boot, its a bit more difficult than the PW to get everything to stay in its rightful spot---even with the nylon sock.

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

1. I can agree with Shorty J that the Pro Tours are much lighter than the TX liner and much warmer.

2. For your overboots, get 40below. As Harpo mentioned, I believe there is a tech-compatable version, but if your other boot is a Spantik not sure if you can get one pair to fit both boots. I have Titans and Spantiks, and obviously the outershell of the Spantik is much wider and bigger than a Titan shell.

- However, I wouldn't think you really need overboots at 14K camp and below in all likelihood. So I would think you can just size them for the Spantiks for the upper mountain.

[Bud]

aside from using overboots on summit day, i used them almost daily over my down booties to keep the booties drier and warmer... and fwiw, i used 40below brand ones.

pack some chemical heater packets too for your boots on summit day.

if you wanna read a overly wordy TR of some Alaska Range newbies, here's my report from 2003... West Buttress trip report (http://petealderson.blogspot.com/2010/03/denali-west-buttress-expedition.html) ....probably some decent lessons learned in there somewhere.

[funkendrenchman]

Jong question- Is bontex the shim that came in the box with the Titans?

FWIW, I did get a shell fit from a very, very reputable boot fitter in Boulder.

I'm also worried that the stock liners will not be warm enough for Denali, even if they do fit well.

Does the shim go under the liner or footbed?

[Kevo]

Thanks for all the advice!

Well, I pulled the trigger last week on

-Intuition Luxury, Size 27 Medium
-Intuition Denali Size 29
-40 Below Purple Haze overboots.

I think it's worth the $ to keep my toes.

Some recent training photos (hopefully the https hotlinking works). Anybody know this location? Skiing would have been good, except the top of the couloir had some sketchy windloading on top of crust on top of depth hoar.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_cu1EIhvg0Go/TaIvRdTn2QI/AAAAAAAAS1I/O7Jl21hUSOo/s720/DSC00836.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_cu1EIhvg0Go/TaIvl4wL5fI/AAAAAAAAS6s/BNvysj6DXGs/s512/DSC00947.JPG

[Kevo]

TR Posted for those interested- http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/223078-TR-PSR-Denali-West-Buttress

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

Great TR. Were the Intuitions worth it in the Spantiks? I have found the regular liners in those to be pretty darn warm (and you had overboots as well).

[Kevo]

I think they were worth it. I had several Spantik wearing climbers ask me if my feet were cold- apparently some guys with Spantiks got cold feet on the colder days- I did not. Also, closed cell foam= no issues with the foam absorbing water and then freezing.