Has everyone lost their fucking minds?

[belgian]

Or are they really this fucking retarded?

EVERYONE; left, right, sheep fucking transcendentalists, etc. in this country rails constantly against job outsourcing. EVERYONE is frustrated that countries like China, India, and almost every European nation is destroying the USA's youth in almost every subject area. I was talking to a Boeing engineer the other day who told me that he lives in different cities in India for FOUR MONTHS A YEAR just trying to recruit Indian engineers to come to Seattle to work for Boeing because they cannot find enough people to fill their ranks in the US. I've heard similar stories from many other industries.

And the fucking solution we as a nation have managed to come up with is to slash education budgets massively? From kindergarten straight through to PhD programs, everything is getting cut. And now we're going after teacher salaries and benefits?! What in the fuck is wrong with everyone? Are they incapable of recognizing cause and effect patterns? Do they not understand that a lack of education is what is creating these scenarios they bemoan all day long? How in the fuck does this help ANYTHING?

Has the moronic 24 hour news cycle which paints EVERY SINGLE ISSUE in this country as black and white really managed to blind people this badly? I don't get it. I really don't.




Fewer Washington state students would be admitted to the state's universities, and more high-paying out-of-state students would be accepted. Hundreds of faculty and staff jobs would be cut, and the time it takes to get a four-year degree would grow by several semesters or more, in effect raising the cost of going to college.

That's the grim scenario painted by the presidents of Washington's three largest universities as they outlined the impact of the latest, most severe cutbacks proposed in higher education in letters to the Legislature this week.

Legislators have asked university and college presidents to sketch out the impact if the state has to cut higher education by $180 million more than the $600 million the governor has already proposed for the next two years. The bigger cuts could be necessary if there's another large drop in projected tax collections in next month's revenue forecast, as some legislators fear.

Both state Reps. Larry Seaquist and Reuven Carlyle, of the House higher education committee, described the analysis as an exercise to help legislators understand what would be lost if the budget was cut this severely. But "the numbers are profoundly serious," Carlyle said. "Within higher ed, we have a particularly difficult scenario."

In one of the most strongly worded letters, Western Washington University President Bruce Shepard called the proposals "unconscionable" and "untenable."

"These budget proposals ... will undo decades of strategic investment by the people of this state, and take just as long to restore and repair the damage done to quality and access," he wrote.

"Times are tough, but please know — without state funding and strategic solutions — everything is at risk," wrote Phyllis Wise, interim president of the University of Washington.

And from Washington State University President Elson Floyd: "Reductions of the proposed level threaten to unravel the fundamental quality of and access to higher education, which has driven the state's economy for decades."

Two ways

As requested, the universities looked at the cutbacks in two ways: They listed what they would eliminate if Gov. Chris Gregoire's proposed two-year, $600 million cutback in higher education went into effect, and what would happen if schools had to cut an additional 15 percent and 30 percent on top of that.

Gregoire has said that her $600 million cutback represents a 4 percent cut in state funding, after backfilling with tuition increases. But Mike Reilly, executive director of the state's Council of Presidents, says her cut is more likely to mean a decrease of 5.8 percent to 7.5 percent in state support because it's unrealistic to raise tuition across-the-board on degrees that already charge a high tuition, such as some graduate programs.

Separately, in the Legislature's request, the schools were asked how much tuition would need to rise if the schools were to fully make up those cutbacks with tuition increases.

For the UW, WSU and WWU, the answer is a 20 to 30 percent hike in tuition, according to the schools' projections.

But there is little likelihood tuition would increase by that amount, said UW Vice Provost Paul Jenny, of the school's planning and budgeting office.

The presidents' letters

The state is expected to raise tuition to cover some of the lost money — Gregoire has proposed tuition increases of 9 to 11 percent — but making up 100 percent of the cutbacks with tuition is not a realistic alternative, he said.

Still, the presidents' letters give a sense of the types of cuts being contemplated:

• The UW, which has already frozen in-state admission to 4,000 freshmen a year, could begin rolling back the size of the in-state class by as many as 500 students a year under the worst-case scenario, Jenny said. At the UW, out-of-state residents pay nearly three times as much as in-state students in tuition and fees.

• WWU is planning to cut in-state admission even if the school's tuition is increased by 11 percent a year in 2011 and 2012. Shepard proposed decreasing in-state enrollment by as many as 670 undergraduates in 2011, and by as many as 2,627 over the course of the biennium if the budget is cut more aggressively. (WSU is not planning to cut in-state student enrollment.)

• The UW projects it would cut 1,000 university jobs under the governor's budget proposal, and as many as 1,500 jobs under the most aggressive budget-cutting scenario. WSU projects it would cut 550 to 750 jobs, and WWU projects cutting 59 to 92 jobs.

• All three universities predicted that the time it takes to graduate would lengthen, as classes are cut back and students scramble to try to fill slots in their schedules. WWU projected the largest increase in the amount of time it would take to graduate — from today's average of 4.6 years to an average of 5.7 years if the governor's proposed cuts are made, and up to 6.9 years if the most aggressive cuts are made.

• The schools would eliminate some of the less-popular degree programs and reduce enrollments in other programs. The UW, for example, is considering eliminating the College of Education's foreign-language certification program for teachers, and the School of Public Health's Institute for Public Health Genetics. WWU would reduce enrollments in its Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) program to prepare science and math teachers. "The required program eliminations would be devastating," Shepard wrote.

• The cuts could have a broader impact on the state's economy. Wise said that for every dollar of state taxpayer support, the UW returns $22 in impact to the Washington economy and generates $1.50 in state and local tax revenue. "Given the magnitude of proposed budget reductions to the UW, the state would experience an immediate loss of economic impact in the billions and direct reductions in state and local tax revenue," she wrote.

• The UW is also considering some cuts to services it provides to the community, such as reducing or eliminating the work it does to maintain the trees in the Washington Park Arboretum, which are owned by the UW; significantly reducing support for the Pacific Northwest Seismic Network; and eliminating funding for the state climatologist.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014325571_higheredcuts25m.html

[Bunion]

To answer your question.

Yes. Left/Right/Other have all lost our collective minds and are now fighting with each other while our country goes down the shitter.

[Grape_Ape]

I blame Faux News...seriously.

[belgian]

To answer your question.

Yes. Left/Right/Other have all lost our collective minds and are now fighting with each other while our country goes down the shitter.

I honestly believe this is the answer. I have no clue how the hell people can be politicizing education budgets, teacher salaries, etc. Especially when the same fucking people talk up and down about how awful outsourcing and the lack education kids are getting. It is absolutely ludicrous.

I'm not even sure I'm mad anymore, I'm just standing on the sidelines with my mouth agape watching this shit play out in complete disbelief.

[belgian]

I blame Faux News...seriously.

They are simply not capable of achieving this single handedly.

[huckbucket]

Teachers deserve fair pay. Their job is ultra important. But increasing pay does not equal better teachers and the same problems that companies like GM face with regard to pensions is happen in the public sector. It dragged GM down and it's dragging our state and federal budgets down too. Convert pensions into 401K's, give the teachers a small bump in take home and we're all good.

[spook]

I honestly believe this is the answer. I have no clue how the hell people can be politicizing education budgets, teacher salaries, etc. Especially when the same fucking people talk up and down about how awful outsourcing and the lack education kids are getting. It is absolutely ludicrous.

I'm not even sure I'm mad anymore, I'm just standing on the sidelines with my mouth agape watching this shit play out in complete disbelief.


people have been ripping teachers for earning too much for longer than i've been alive. i have family members who were teachers and i went through 2 teachers' strikes in the late 70s early 80s. it was every bit as nasty then as it is now, with the exception of mass media/internet/organized rightwinger talking points being screamed out of every idiot's mouth.

everybody is a "we" in the u.s. until they realize they aren't and never were. they're just along to help fund other peoples' intentions until they can't any longer and then they're jettisoned like all the rest before them. natives and slaves figured it out earlier than the average american idiot for obvious reasons. modern day americans have such a limited attention span, a limited global awareness and infinite distractions that feed the know-it-all ego and hate that they're just sheep waiting for slaughter. the slaughter they cheered and paid for when it was some poverty stricken, war engulfed brown skinned person in another land.

[PowTron]

Teachers deserve fair pay. Their job is ultra important. But increasing pay does not equal better teachers and the same problems that companies like GM face with regard to pensions is happen in the public sector. It dragged GM down and it's dragging our state and federal budgets down too. Convert pensions into 401K's, give the teachers a small bump in take home and we're all good.

YEAH.......Pensions are the reason for this big mess. If you think that the reason GM went down the tubes is because of Pensions, you need to turn off your Rush/Hannity/Beck ears.

Have any original thoughts, or just talking points?

[huckbucket]

YEAH.......Pensions are the reason for this big mess. If you think that the reason GM went down the tubes is because of Pensions, you need to turn off your Rush/Hannity/Beck ears.

Have any original thoughts, or just talking points?


My bad ... pensions and health care costs. $1600 per vehicle in retiree health care and pension costs. That's probably $1000/car that can't be spent on product development.

[belgian]

I don't even really give a shit about the teacher pay/pension deal, except to note that while some teachers out in the burbs do have a pretty sweet deal, most get paid shit to do a job where they get zero respect from their students, from the parents and from their administrations. Most only get any amount of respect from the public for doing an important and difficult job, but now they've even lost their public respect because some teachers have a nice benefit package because socialism or something like that.

Mostly though, I'm in disbelief about the budget cuts for schools, esp. Higher ed. Budget cuts will only worsen the problems this country is currently facing, and no one seems to think about that. They just fucking sit there and regurgitate the bullshit that the rich ass TV/radio personalities, politicians and corporate slave owning CEOs say without thinking.

[Moeghoul]

It's just what the Kochheads of the world want. You really think they want to limit the applicant pool to USA only? Keep a lid on them private sector jobs salaries.

[huckbucket]

I'm not even really talking about the teacher pay/pension deal. Mostly the budget cuts for schools, esp. Higher ed.

It's obviously a complicated situation. My guess is that legislators are looking at our past efforts to improve educational performance and are now retrenching (and retracting cash) based on the fact that what we're doing isn't working. Rather than try something new (and throw money at something else), they're using it as an opportunity to reduce their already inflated budgets. It's like sticking your finger in a leaking dam. No amount of money is gonna fix the problems inherent in our social fabric that is undermining the ability of educators to do their job. I blame 5th avenue and the deviously effective marketing programs out there that are convincing our kids that no one needs to sacrifice, no one needs to work hard, and everyone of matter is beautiful. It's fuckin' ghay.

[iscariot]

Sounds like a fairly simple "you reap what you sow" situation regarding the attitudes toward education and science in the USA.

Who sowed this? :rolleyes2

[gunit130]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSROlfR7WTo

[belgian]

It's obviously a complicated situation. My guess is that legislators are looking at our past efforts to improve educational performance and are now retrenching (and retracting cash) based on the fact that what we're doing isn't working. Rather than try something new (and throw money at something else), they're using it as an opportunity to reduce their already inflated budgets. It's like sticking your finger in a leaking dam. No amount of money is gonna fix the problems inherent in our social fabric that is undermining the ability of educators to do their job. I blame 5th avenue and the deviously effective marketing programs out there that are convincing our kids that no one needs to sacrifice, no one needs to work hard, and everyone of matter is beautiful. It's fuckin' ghay.

So decreasing university enrollment, laying off educators and increasing class sizes, eliminating educational programs, increasing tuition, decreasing funding for equipment, etc etc etc. will improve education because education is so fucked that it cannot be fixed so the best solution is to glass-parking-lot the whole system and make it accessible only to the rich while outsourcing not only continues but increases?

[huckbucket]

... and here's proof that it has less to do with infrastructure and more to do with culture. I taught a graduate level immunology class last night at my local university. 90% of the students were either Indian or Chinese. Once here, foreigners have access to all of the same resources as Americans, yet Americans choose not pursue careers in math and science. I don't know why, but I would guess that it has to do with perceived future earnings and cache. Why be a Ph.D. when you can be an MD and get paid more? Why be an actuary when you can be an accountant and maybe a CFO someday?

The tools are there or you wouldn't see the influx of foreign students.

[gunit130]

Seriously. I don't think there is much we can do at this point.

The war has been won. Stupid people are breeding faster than smart people and there is no way the smart people are going to be able to catch up. The only way will be some type of disease that only affects dumbasses.

[huckbucket]

So decreasing university enrollment, laying off educators and increasing class sizes, eliminating educational programs, increasing tuition, decreasing funding for equipment, etc etc etc. will improve education because education is so fucked that it cannot be fixed so the best solution is to glass-parking-lot the whole system and make it accessible only to the rich while outsourcing not only continues but increases?

Shit dude ... I don't have the answers ... and stripping the system certainly ain't gonna help, but student to teacher ratios of 1:1 won't fix the problems that we have in many of our schools. You can't just throw money at it.

[belgian]

Seriously. I don't think there is much we can do at this point.

The war has been won. Stupid people are breeding faster than smart people and there is no way the smart people are going to be able to catch up. The only way will be some type of disease that only affects dumbasses.

Obesity? Quick! We need to get the Biggest Loser off the air ASAP.

huckbucket - I agree with you, and I clearly don't have the solutions either. I'm just 100% certain that what is going on right now is not going to improve things one bit.

[Downbound Train]

Or are they really this fucking retarded?

EVERYONE; left, right, sheep fucking transcendentalists, etc. in this country rails constantly against job outsourcing. EVERYONE is frustrated that countries like China, India, and almost every European nation is destroying the USA's youth in almost every subject area. I was talking to a Boeing engineer the other day who told me that he lives in different cities in India for FOUR MONTHS A YEAR just trying to recruit Indian engineers to come to Seattle to work for Boeing because they cannot find enough people to fill their ranks in the US. I've heard similar stories from many other industries.

And the fucking solution we as a nation have managed to come up with is to slash education budgets massively? From kindergarten straight through to PhD programs, everything is getting cut. And now we're going after teacher salaries and benefits?! What in the fuck is wrong with everyone? Are they incapable of recognizing cause and effect patterns? Do they not understand that a lack of education is what is creating these scenarios they bemoan all day long? How in the fuck does this help ANYTHING?


RIGHT! I'm sure INDIA out spends the HELL out of us on education!!!

You fuckin' dummy. Money has NOTHING to do with it. Our system is broken because our unionized schools and government entitelment mentality broke it.

[char]

George Carlin summed it up pretty good with "They don't give a fuck about you!"

This is just the ongoing attack on the middle class. And yes, everyone has lost their fucking minds.

Yeah! Yeah! Slash discretionary spending! But god forbid anyone look at the moderate solution to SS, no, lets privatize the fucker. Really? WTF? Slash teacher pay, because taking away the incentive for the highly educated smart people to train our students is really a great move.

You know what other education systems do that succeed? They recruit the best and brightest to be teachers.

I think the real issue is that the majority of moderate people have allowed the conversation to be hijacked by not really participating in the system. We just stand on the sidelines mouths agape.

Belgian- I don't know about you, but the last 2-3 years has really made me think hard about traveling the world looking for a country that doesn't have polarized politics like the US and overall is more moderate (less political swing).

There is tons of opportunity here, but sometimes it seems like maybe the quality of life would be better even with higher taxes/lower pay.

[belgian]

Belgian- I don't know about you, but the last 2-3 years has really made me think hard about traveling the world looking for a country that doesn't have polarized politics like the US and overall is more moderate (less political swing).

There is tons of opportunity here, but sometimes it seems like maybe the quality of life would be better even with higher taxes/lower pay.

I'm right there with you, politics have taken over the US both in public discourse and everyday life and it is very frustrating. I'm not sure what I'd do once I got there but I am constantly thinking about moving back to Europe.

[Elkhound Odin]

I was talking to a Boeing engineer the other day who told me that he lives in different cities in India for FOUR MONTHS A YEAR just trying to recruit Indian engineers to come to Seattle to work for Boeing because they cannot find enough people to fill their ranks in the US. I've heard similar stories from many other industries.


Some guy goes to a 2nd world country that spends a fraction per student that the US does because he can't find qualified people in the US. And your answer is to spend even more on educating our over pampered kids. It seems to me that cutting spending might be the only way to correct the problem. Get back to the basics and stop the coddling.

[Rip'nStick]

RIGHT! I'm sure INDIA out spends the HELL out of us on education!!!

You fuckin' dummy. Money has NOTHING to do with it. Our system is broken because our unionized schools and government entitelment mentality broke it.
This is not entirely inaccurate in my opinion, and is confirmed by friends that work in the K-12 system. Higher Ed is another story. But like everything DBT spouts, it is black and white, and the world just isn't really that way.

One of the real issues here is that "American" (read white and black) kids don't see hard work and studying as the sexy thing to do or what they want to do with their lives. They would rather be rock stars, pro athletes, rappers, or chefs or something else they say on TV. Years of affluence without seeing the spark and hard work that made it happen will do that.
Interest in hard sciences died on the 7th space shuttle launch. Internet came along and the juices got flowing again, but it was all about get rich quick ideas.

Engineering is hard. Watched many of my classmates opt out for other majors, business being probably the biggest draw. Dad just wanted them to make something of themselves. They didn’t really want to know how things worked or how to design things.

But yes slicing education budgets across the board is insane. Revisiting compensation and retention policies makes sense. The new brand of small government conservative is well supported by a large number of the disenchanted working class that has always resented education because it brings back bad memories.

DBT what was your GPA in high school??? Did you play sports?

I think my signature is appropriate here. First part was a jest from a friend I respect tremendously. Second part is DBT…

[gunit130]

sadly, a lot of the smart people i'm talking about are the obese ones.

diseases that might be able to slow-down the dumb people from breeding could be STD's, or something like that

[Rip'nStick]

Some guy goes to a 2nd world country that spends a fraction per student that the US does because he can't find qualified people in the US. And your answer is to spend even more on educating our over pampered kids. It seems to me that cutting spending might be the only way to correct the problem. Get back to the basics and stop the coddling.

I don't agree with cutting the spending but can't disagree with Elkhound on stop the coddling. I also think we need trade routes and university prep routes by age 16. A recent article I read in Harpers ranked the % of high-performing 16 yr olds in math by country, I forgot the actual metrics. The US was ridiculously low, Massachusetts came in at something like 20th. Didn't have much to do with socio-economic status. Had a lot to do with how the top students were encouraged adn moved on so that they didn't have to be held back by lower performers. I think that is a decent idea.

[BCMountainHound]

Sounds like the time is ripe for the creation of BuSab :fm:

Seriously though, any natural system is only broken because it's feedback/response mechanism is either stuck, or missing entirely. Somewhere, there is an apparatchik(s) that is/are malfunctioning. Whether this is by error or intent is moot at this point. And the longer it takes to identify and correct, the greater the pain that will be felt in its rectification. Follow the money/power stream, and find those entities/individuals that would be most greatly indisposed by a necessary change to the system. This is exactly what is happening in the middle east. Whether or not the system will correct in the long term depends on what then will fill the resulting void (more of the same, or something different).

Identification of the issue is realtively simple. The solution will be something else.

[huckbucket]

sadly, a lot of the smart people i'm talking about are the obese ones.

diseases that might be able to slow-down the dumb people from breeding could be STD's, or something like that

Sadly, I'm laughing.

[Downbound Train]

All the cultures who are kicking our ass have not bought into the PC bullshit of clogging the classrooms with hoodlums and other malcontents who don't want to be there. Another left wing clusterfuck.

Why do you want to know mt HS GPA and if I played sports?

[Hugh Conway]

You are still young belgian, no? Get the fuck out of the US. As you can see, there ain't much hope from these cretins.

[Rip'nStick]

^^^
He's not being mean or kidding, this is actual advice!

[Rip'nStick]

All the cultures who are kicking our ass have not bought into the PC bullshit of clogging the classrooms with hoodlums and other malcontents who don't want to be there. Another left wing clusterfuck.

Why do you want to know mt HS GPA and if I played sports?

Again I somewhat agree. Providing education for everyone should be a priority. How much education and of what type is the question. Having a underpaid teacher trying to manage a class of 40 students does not have the serve the top 5 students very well. Skipping grades is not always practical in large schools.

People railing against education typically did fairly mediocre or poorly in school and therefore do not see the benefit. They always say "real world experience" is so much more important. Yeah but it doesn't typically help you prepare for success in college.

[Downbound Train]

Again I somewhat agree. Providing education for everyone should be a priority. How much education and of what type is the question. Having a underpaid teacher trying to manage a class of 40 students does not have the serve the top 5 students very well. Skipping grades is not always practical in large schools.

People railing against education typically did fairly mediocre or poorly in school and therefore do not see the benefit. They always say "real world experience" is so much more important. Yeah but it doesn't typically help you prepare for success in college.

Paying a teacher more isn't going to make her better equipped to deal with a room of 40 kids. Paying her less so we can afford 2 rooms of 20 will give us better educated kids.

[Hugh Conway]

^^^
He's not being mean or kidding, this is actual advice!

Yup, there are actually countries in the world willing to invest in workers, their citizens, businesses, so they can provide a good environment for business and their residents. The US ain't one of them.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Too bad the schools aren't too big to fail. They'd have a couple hundred billion thrown at them before you could say Lloyd Blankfein.

[skiballs]

I don't agree with cutting the spending but can't disagree with Elkhound on stop the coddling. I also think we need trade routes and university prep routes by age 16. A recent article I read in Harpers ranked the % of high-performing 16 yr olds in math by country, I forgot the actual metrics. The US was ridiculously low, Massachusetts came in at something like 20th. Didn't have much to do with socio-economic status. Had a lot to do with how the top students were encouraged adn moved on so that they didn't have to be held back by lower performers. I think that is a decent idea.

Dip-stick, you don't have any kids, do you?
My oldest is a high school freshman and is taking college prep classes.
If you had kids you would know, that all the shit you babble about exists.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[ilikecandy]

Awesome thread

"Here's this issue that I have almost zero understanding of, but anyone who disagrees with my uninformed opinion is an idiot. Which isnt ironic at all, considering I have put zero effort into understanding the rationale of anyone who disagrees. its much easier to call people stupid and evil than to even attempt to begin to understand their reasoning. plus im scared that if i actually tried to see more than MY side of an issue, it would challenge the narrative in my head"

thank god for homers

[iscariot]

"Here's this issue that I have almost zero understanding of, but anyone who disagrees with my uninformed opinion is an idiot. Which isnt ironic at all, considering I have put zero effort into understanding the rationale of anyone who disagrees. its much easier to call people stupid and evil than to even attempt to begin to understand their reasoning. plus im scared that if i actually tried to see more than MY side of an issue, it would challenge the narrative in my head"

thank god for homers


Quoted for future irony...

[Alaskan Rover]

I think it's a sad day indeed when obviously partisan politics on the part of various rightwing governors enters the realm of politics.

Yet, it had to happen sooner or later, as the right-wingers have been griping about education, both lower and higher, being the soveign sanctity of the left for some time now.

Fucking right-wingers....I wish they would stay the hell out of where they don't belong...go back to war-profiteering.

Close-mindedness should really have no place in the educational world...and as right-wingers are some of the most close-minded, stupidest individuals in this country, I shudder to think how much worse our educational system will get once they get their grubby, fat little hands on it. (BTW...I say "grubby, fat little hands" because whenever I think about rightwingers, I picture the scumbag Rush Limbaugh...it's just an associative response.)

Douchebags like the Governor of Wisconsin really should have no place in politics.

I loved it when an editor of some newspaper called up the Gov's office, masquerading as one of the Koch brothers. He actually got put through to the governor, and they talked for something like twenty minutes...the whole time the gov thinking he was actually talking to one of the Koch brothers. The editor, throughout the conversation, was profusely thanking the governor for keeping his part of the "agreement" after the Koch brothers had donated much $$$$$ to the gov's campaign. The gov actually said your welcome. I don't know how the editor managed to 'legally' record that call...but legal or not, he recorded it.

I'm sure fucking Fox News didn't say word fucking BOO about THAT particular conversation.

The governor of Wisconsin is a perfect poster-child for right-wing douchebaggery.

No wonder DBT likes him so much!!!

[ilikecandy]

I'm sure fucking Fox News didn't say word fucking BOO about THAT particular conversation.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/23/gov-walker-prank-called-blogger-posing-billionaire-david-koch/

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/foxs-greta-van-susteren-challenges-gov-walker-over-prank-call-comments/

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/transcript/wis-governor-explains-falling-prank-call-stands-ground-039budget-repair039-bill

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/special-report/transcript/wisconsin-governors-prank-caller-has-history-hateful-rhetoric

Unlike other media outlets, fox doesn't omit stories because they don't align with their ideology

I assure you pretty much everything else you said is just as wrong, so I'll ask again - have you ever been right about anything?

[Alaskan Rover]

Teachers highly paid???? WTF???

I went to high school in upstate NY, a school disctrict that many families sought to live in PRIMARILY because of the noteworthiness of its school system. The district actively sought out the highest qualified, most demonstrably motivated teachers it could possibly find, and solicited across the nation. We had a 95% college entrance rate and more AP classes and science/math extracurriculars than most schools in the country. Yes, the school superintendant himself actaully made quite a bit more than the superindendant of the whole NYC school system to the south (a travesty I won't go into here). he might indeed have been overpaid, but the teachers themsleves were certainly NOT overpaid. They worked there because the school was famous for giving its teachers much trust and respect and autonomy.

Sure, the vast amount of the school budget came from local real estate taxes in this case and not state or federal money, and I am not saying that that fact did not play a part in the school's standing...but the teachers themselves were paid no more than your average first year engineer...and these were teachers that had worked there for years.

There definitely IS a dichotomy in people's vision of "proper" compensation. Engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc...all highly educated, so they deserve their high pay. Well, teachers are also required to be highly educated as well...often "requiring" a Masters to have any real standing in the school district, yet they continually get paid squat compared to other equally educated civil workers, and only recently has there been a push to increase their pay. College professors fair slightly better as they usually have an additional PhD as a prequisite to their advancement.

Our kids are our country's most important resource. The teaching of our kids should be of primary concern...not some fucking pothole in the road.

When will we get our priorities correct???

EDIT:
BTW, Ilikecandy, I voluntarily have no TV....even if I did, you think I'd even waste any time watching Fox News?

But I do have to admit that I am astounded that that first Fox article didn't even try to paint over the fact that Gov. Walker is a serious douchebag...perhaps they just thought it was much too difficult an endeavor...or maybe they just knew that Fox News viewers are so brainwashed that negatives against their right-wing "gods" don't even register. An "Emperor wears no clothes" kinda thing.

[liv2ski]

Too bad the schools aren't too big to fail. They'd have a couple hundred billion thrown at them before you could say Lloyd Blankfein.

This is what should be happening as our society will ultimately be judged by the laws and budgets it passes. Over the last 40 years the USA's politicians have dug a progressively deeper hole while supporting their masters in the banking, Wall Street and war machine industries.
Just think how different a country this could have been if the population voted with their conscious and a well thought out plan to promote the standard of living of all Americans.
While I could get into a history lesson of the many bad moves that have brought us to this place, I think it is more important that you the voter get enraged over what is happening and start a new party that will make the changes this country needs.
First off, stop the Imperialist US war machine. Bring it all home. Close the bases. We have enough nuclear weapons to deter any aggressor. Just that would make a huge difference in Obama's proposed budget, where the bitch of Wall St and the Industrial War Machine has sold us out.
You guys need to get pissed off and vote ever fucking encompant out. Until you change the government, it will be business as usual.
I can always go back to Canada. What are you guys going to do once the politicians have brought this once great country to it's knees?

[Alaskan Rover]

I assure you pretty much everything else you said is just as wrong, so I'll ask again - have you ever been right about anything?

ilikecandy is a douche. There...at least I am right about SOMETHING. Sheeeeshh.

[Downbound Train]

Teachers highly paid???? WTF???

I went to high school in upstate NY, a school disctrict that many families sought to live in PRIMARILY because of the noteworthiness of its school system. The district actively sought out the highest qualified, most demonstrably motivated teachers it could possibly find, and solicited across the nation. We had a 95% college entrance rate and more AP classes and science/math extracurriculars than most schools in the country. Yes, the school superintendant himself actaully made quite a bit more than the superindendant of the whole NYC school system to the south (a travesty I won't go into here). he might indeed have been overpaid, but the teachers themsleves were certainly NOT overpaid. They worked there because the school was famous for giving its teachers much trust and respect and autonomy.

Sure, the vast amount of the school budget came from local real estate taxes in this case and not state or federal money, and I am not saying that that fact did not play a part in the school's standing...but the teachers themselves were paid no more than your average first year engineer...and these were teachers that had worked there for years.

There definitely IS a dichotomy in people's vision of "proper" compensation. Engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc...all highly educated, so they deserve their high pay. Well, teachers are also required to be highly educated as well...often "requiring" a Masters to have any real standing in the school district, yet they continually get paid squat compared to other equally educated civil workers, and only recently has there been a push to increase their pay. College professors fair slightly better as they usually have an additional PhD as a prequisite to their advancement.

Our kids are our country's most important resource. The teaching of our kids should be of primary concern...not some fucking pothole in the road.

When will we get our priorities correct???

EDIT:
BTW, Ilikecandy, I voluntarily have no TV....even if I did, you think I'd even waste any time watching Fox News?

But I do have to admit that I am astounded that that first Fox article didn't even try to paint over the fact that Gov. Walker is a serious douchebag...perhaps they just thought it was much too difficult an endeavor...or maybe they just knew that Fox News viewers are so brainwashed that negatives against their right-wing "gods" don't even register. An "Emperor wears no clothes" kinda thing.

You seem to be making the CORRECT point that teacher pay and kids performance are not connected.

As for teachers being "Highly Educated". I roomed with a guy in college for 2 years who majored in elementary education. There is no way to imagine an easier course of study at the college level. That's fine too. If that's all it takes to be a teacher, so be it. But don't come at us with this "Highly Educated" like an Engineer or lawyer or Doctor. That's a joke.

[Downbound Train]

This is what should be happening as our society will ultimately be judged by the laws and budgets it passes. Over the last 40 years the USA's politicians have dug a progressively deeper hole while supporting their masters in the banking, Wall Street and war machine industries.
Just think how different a country this could have been if the population voted with their conscious and a well thought out plan to promote the standard of living of all Americans.
While I could get into a history lesson of the many bad moves that have brought us to this place, I think it is more important that you the voter get enraged over what is happening and start a new party that will make the changes this country needs.
First off, stop the Imperialist US war machine. Bring it all home. Close the bases. We have enough nuclear weapons to deter any aggressor. Just that would make a huge difference in Obama's proposed budget, where the bitch of Wall St and the Industrial War Machine has sold us out.
You guys need to get pissed off and vote ever fucking encompant out. Until you change the government, it will be business as usual.
I can always go back to Canada. What are you guys going to do once the politicians have brought this once great country to it's knees?

Ok, then let's cut entitelments to an equal percentage. Let's go! I'm with you. But let's do entitlments first. They are unconstitutional, National Defense isn't.

[Bunion]

Ok, then let's cut entitelments to an equal percentage. Let's go! I'm with you. But let's do entitlments first. They are unconstitutional, National Defense isn't.


Where do you come up with your information? :rolleyes:

Never-mind.

Entitlements and Defense both need to be looked at without prejudice and reduced to sustainable levels.

If we and I really mean WE are serious about getting spending under control it will have to be Medicare, Medicare, SS and Defense. The GOP can't do it alone, The Democrats can't do it alone. It needs to be both sides and everyone will feel some pain. And on top of that some taxes will have to go up.:eek:

[Downbound Train]

Where do you come up with your information? :rolleyes:

Never-mind.

Entitlements and Defense both need to be looked at without prejudice and reduced to sustainable levels.

If we and I really mean WE are serious about getting spending under control it will have to be Medicare, Medicare, SS and Defense. The GOP can't do it alone, The Democrats can't do it alone. It needs to be both sides and everyone will feel some pain. And on top of that some taxes will have to go up.:eek:

Forget about taxes. 1.5 trillion or whatever the treasury gets each year, is enough. As long as people are considering taxes as an option, they will NEVER get serious about the proper amount of cutting. Look at WI and NJ. That's the way to do it. NO NEW TAXES!

[Dexter Rutecki]

As for teachers being "Highly Educated". I roomed with a guy in college for 2 years who majored in elementary education. There is no way to imagine an easier course of study at the college level. That's fine too. If that's all it takes to be a teacher, so be it. But don't come at us with this "Highly Educated" like an Engineer or lawyer or Doctor. That's a joke.

I generally disregard/don't read what you post, but this caught my eye. Minor point: at least half the teachers (HS) I've worked with have had their terminal (PhD) degrees, and have been generally quite intelligent and well educated--in addition to being better rounded/knowledgeable than most lawyers, engineers or doctors. I agree that education schools aren't usually worth much, but I wouldn't make blanket generalizations about teachers the way you did (of course, I wouldn't post most of the other batshit insane stuff you routinely post, either). That said, there are way too many incompetent teachers, and that's a problem (I've been fortunate not to have to work with many of them, but I know they're out there).

And it's inane and typically conservative shortsighted to cut education funding just when we need it most. Incredibly galling to see these douchebag Republicans pretending to be fiscal conservatives, when for eight years they let Bush help create the deficit they're supposedly concerned about, all of a sudden, when there's a black Democrat in office (and they have no problem adding to the deficit if it benefits their rich benefactors--but god forbid money go to help average Americans). Bullshit hypocrisy, but same as it ever was. And we've still got dipshits like Boehner trying to throw money away on military pork for the home district. Beyond absurd.

[Bunion]

Forget about taxes. 1.5 trillion or whatever the treasury gets each year, is enough. As long as people are considering taxes as an option, they will NEVER get serious about the proper amount of cutting. Look at WI and NJ. That's the way to do it. NO NEW TAXES!



O.K. that is just about enough. You go on the Ignore List.

Why? Because you have no basis in reality and just make up and spew shit with nothing to back it up.

Non-discretionary spending for 2010 was around 2.009 Trillion.
Discretionary Spending was around 1.368 Trillion
Tax Revenues were around 2.162 Trillion.

To exempt any of the expenditures from cuts or reform won't work, be they discretionary on Non-discretionary.

To say NO to ANY tax increases and reduce the deficit through cuts and cuts alone doesn't get us there either.

Those are the immutable facts of Mathematics.

Keep screaming at the wind and the rain. I am done with you. :the_finge

[OSECS]

^^^^. Ignore him why ? He's correct. We take in an enormous amount of money. There's no earthly reason why they cannot make the govt function on that amount. They should be able to function on less. Our military is bloated and our discretionary funds are completely ridiculous.
Govt asks citizens to cut back, sacrifice, give, pay more in taxes, but when does it ever say" we as a govt need to spend less" and then really do it ????

If I thought giving an extra thousand in taxes a year for five or even ten years ( along with the rest of the actual tax payers) would help actually reduce our budget deficit, I'd gladly do it, but the extra funds would end up in a general fund just as SS has been treated.

[Powow]

^^^^. Ignore him why ? He's correct. We take in an enormous amount of money. There's no earthly reason why they cannot make the govt function on that amount. They should be able to function on less. Our military is bloated and our discretionary funds are completely ridiculous.
Govt asks citizens to cut back, sacrifice, give, pay more in taxes, but when does it ever say" we as a govt need to spend less" and then really do it ????

If I thought giving an extra thousand in taxes a year for five or even ten years ( along with the rest of the actual tax payers) would help actually reduce our budget deficit, I'd gladly do it, but the extra funds would end up in a general fund just as SS has been treated.
The last time Government spending vs. GDP was 14.3% (current tax revenue according to Bunion vs. current GDP) was right around 1930 (remember what happened in the late 1920s?). It is absurd to set that as the goal. Taxes are too low. It is debatable whether spending is too high, but there is no doubt that taxes are too low.

edit: My mistake, I used total government spending, it was actually the late 1930s that tax revenues were 14% of GDP. Here is where I am getting this from: http://carriedaway.blogs.com/carried_away/2003/10/us_government_s.html

[Downbound Train]

The last time Government spending vs. GDP was 14.3% (current tax revenue according to Bunion vs. current GDP) was right around 1930 (remember what happened in the late 1920s?). It is absurd to set that as the goal. Taxes are too low. It is debatable whether spending is too high, but there is no doubt that taxes are too low.

^^^^PROOF THAT YOUR BRAIN IS DEAD.

[ilikecandy]

The last time Government spending vs. GDP was 14.3% (current tax revenue according to Bunion vs. current GDP) was right around 1930 (remember what happened in the late 1920s?). It is absurd to set that as the goal. Taxes are too low. It is debatable whether spending is too high, but there is no doubt that taxes are too low.

umm

tax revenue != spending

debatable that spending is too high?

good lord, you are fucking insane

[OSECS]

The last time Government spending vs. GDP was 14.3% (current tax revenue according to Bunion vs. current GDP) was right around 1930 (remember what happened in the late 1920s?). It is absurd to set that as the goal. Taxes are too low. It is debatable whether spending is too high, but there is no doubt that taxes are too low.


Really ?? Low taxes caused the great depression. Debatable that spending is too high ? We spend/ waste a great deal of money/Capitol. Spending is too high. More money should be in the hands of the people who create/generate the economy. Economies flourish when people have disposable income and govts don't have huge deficit burdens.

[Powow]

Really ?? Low taxes caused the great depression. Debatable that spending is too high ? We spend/ waste a great deal of money/Capitol. Spending is too high. More money should be in the hands of the people who create/generate the economy. Economies flourish when people have disposable income and govts don't have huge deficit burdens.
Low taxes certainly are not exclusive to economic problems was the point there.

What I was saying in regard to spending is that it doesn't matter if you think it is too high or not. Tax revenues have not risen significantly since the 1930s relative to the economy. In the mean time, lots of things got a lot more complex and a lot more expensive.

The point is that if you are claiming that taxes are too high now, why were they not too high for the last 80 years? If anything they are significantly lower than they were over most of that time frame. The average has been closer to 20% than the 14% it is right now.

This is why republicans are so fucking stupid about the budget. Taxes are historically low right now. Yes, spending may be too high, but cutting it to match revenue today, let alone after any tax cuts, would cut spending to the lowest levels in 80 years. We paid for a lot of nice things over those 80 years. Yes, some was wasted.

[Dexter Rutecki]

^^^
The entire 'taxes are stifling growth' argument is bullshit. Look at the marginal rates on the wealthy during the periods of greatest growth during most of the 20th century. We're nowhere close, now. Republicans (and sadly, some Democrats) are just playing to their donors with the ridiculous argument that taxing the wealthy at historically normal rates will somehow hurt the economy. But for some reason we need to keep helping the rich get richer while everyone else gets shafted.

On a related note, the OP can't figure out what his graphs are telling him--one moment he claims you can't see what's happening at the bottom (because he doesn't like to admit it), the next he insists that there is some elusive truth hiding down there. Unreal.

[ilikecandy]

^^^
The entire 'taxes are stifling growth' argument is bullshit. Look at the marginal rates on the wealthy during the periods of greatest growth during most of the 20th century. We're nowhere close, now. Republicans (and sadly, some Democrats) are just playing to their donors with the ridiculous argument that taxing the wealthy at historically normal rates will somehow hurt the economy. But for some reason we need to keep helping the rich get richer while everyone else gets shafted.

On a related note, the OP can't figure out what his graphs are telling him--one moment he claims you can't see what's happening at the bottom (because he doesn't like to admit it), the next he insists that there is some elusive truth hiding down there. Unreal.

while i agree that the OP is uninformed, I dont see the graphs youre talking about

[OSECS]

Low taxes certainly are not exclusive to economic problems was the point there.

What I was saying in regard to spending is that it doesn't matter if you think it is too high or not. Tax revenues have not risen significantly since the 1930s relative to the economy. In the mean time, lots of things got a lot more complex and a lot more expensive.

The point is that if you are claiming that taxes are too high now, why were they not too high for the last 80 years? If anything they are significantly lower than they were over most of that time frame. The average has been closer to 20% than the 14% it is right now.

This is why republicans are so fucking stupid about the budget. Taxes are historically low right now. Yes, spending may be too high, but cutting it to match revenue today, let alone after any tax cuts, would cut spending to the lowest levels in 80 years. We paid for a lot of nice things over those 80 years. Yes, some was wasted.

My point wasn't that taxes are too high as much as we spend more As a govt than we take in. Qualifying that I'd say taxes don't need to be higher, our govt needs to make do with less. Our budget deficit is what's going to kill our economy for good if it's not gotten under control.

Congress uses spending as a re election tool in many instances. Bottom line I think our national govt has gone way over board on their spending responsibilities.

I do not believe raising taxes will cure the deficit because the extra revenue will simply be engulfed by fresh rounds of spending. That was why I made the comment about a tax line that actually was dedicated to nothing but deficit reduction, and which I know would never happen (SEE: Social SEcurity funding and it's use as a false budget balancing tool).

So your point about tax rates being historically low is well taken, but our govt is how many times larger than it was in the 30's ?? How efficiently is every $ being used?? How much admin and waste/fraud for every actual targeted dollar ??

[Downbound Train]

Maybe we need a new term. High taxes is only part of the Big Gov problem. What was the burden of federal regulation historically compared to today.

Regulation probably creates MORE distress on business development than the tax rates.

In addition, historically, we didn't have the international competition we do now. A tax rate from the 30's or 50's may have kept businesses here. Now tax rates must be competitive world wide or business will go elsewhere.

Forget about taxes. CUT SPENDING!!!

[Bunion]

OSECS, if we were dealing with the yearly deficits alone we could probably get by with cuts alone.

As it is we are dealing with the yearly budgetary shortfall along with the current debt that has happened over the past 30 years.

Both need to be corrected, hence the reason for some tax increases or we never get that 12-14 trillion dollar monster off our backs.

You can't pay off a 14 trillion dollar marker with cuts alone. Sorry that just won't work.

[OSECS]

OSECS, if we were dealing with the yearly deficits alone we could probably get by with cuts alone.

As it is we are dealing with the yearly budgetary shortfall along with the current debt that has happened over the past 30 years.

Both need to be corrected, hence the reason for some tax increases or we never get that 12-14 trillion dollar monster off our backs.

You can't pay off a 14 trillion dollar marker with cuts alone. Sorry that just won't work.

Can't say I disagree at this point, but do you really think the extra tax money will actually go to deficit reduction?? I flat out don't believe it. And I would like to.

[Bunion]

No, I don't believe that either. All the more reason to hold the people in charge accountable and quit screaming at each other.

We are being divided and chumped.

The far right and far left love division.

[Alaskan Rover]

....//....What was the burden of federal regulation historically compared to today.

Regulation probably creates MORE distress on business development than the tax rates.....//....

There seem to be a few misnomers that present themselves in this thread:

Misnomer # 1): All or most government regulation is by default BAD. Really?? Lets see: Civil Rights Act...that finally gave blacks and other non-whites representation and a verifiable place in our society...that was regulation. Wouldn't have happened in that timeline w/o regulation. Clean Water Act....that finally gave legitimate liabilities and penalties to corporations for dumping endless chemicals into our waterways. Without those regulations, those corporate entities would certainly have continued dumping, as it was simply easier and more cost-effective to dump. Oh....while we're at it: What about the FDA regulation that finally required all food companies to list their ingredients on their packaging? That way we can actually SEE what crap they are putting in our food. You think ANY food company would have taken that step unless they were forced?? Hell no. I for one, like to see what ingredients are in a product, and I DO use that information to make informed food decisions.

These are all examples of government regulations that are actually beneficial to our country and its colective citizenry.

Misnomer #2: Government spending and waste are one and the same. Seeing some of the things some of you write, I seriously think that some of you believe that.

We are a country of what? 360 million peolple?? Some of you seem to have the nutzo view that we can run this country as strictly a market economy as if it was some small New England village of 900 people. A nice thought...and believe me, I love small-time, old-time village market economies, but with our present population (and unless you want to start exterminating people...we are STUCK with this population)...that simply ain't gonna work, son. Too many different types of people....most are fairly healthy, some get sick...and not all that get sick have the means to help themselves. They therefore need government help for their medical. With a fully free-market medical system that wouldn't happen. What are you going to do? Ignore them?

Trickle-down Reagonomics DOES NOT WORK...it NEVER has. Can't you conservatives get that through your THICK heads??? We have TOO many people in this country for that type of economic system to work. Maybe, if we only had 20 million or less....but shit I don't even know if it would work in that situation either. Trickle-down Reagonics NEVER helped anybody but the extremely wealthy. And yet, that is basically been the conservative/republicanm mantra for decades....as if cutting taxes for the wealthy will cure all ills.

With a THIRD of a BILLION PEOPLE in this country, there has to be some sort of social help network infrastructure in place, because not all of those 300 plus million people are going to be fine, healthy, productive, SMART people. Private industry isn't going to give a shit about helping them...except maybe getting them even more in debt by raking them with credit interest rates, so as private industry won't want to help, it IS up to our government to put a network together to help this growing segment of our society. Granted, right now, that system is wasteful as hell...but because we have such a large population, it is better than NO system.

Unless you want 100 million very hungry people beating down your door to try and scrounge a little more food or a little more money. I mean how many bullets do you have? Believe me, probably not enough if you live anywhere in the city or suburbs. Massive cuts of the welfare system without a plan to put in place....what do you think is going to happen????

Yes....the system is broken. We need to be teaching the people TO FISH...and not just simply GIVING THEM FISH....but that takes money and a lot of effort from BOTH sides...and yes, it takes a government to do it, as we are NOT that small rural village anymore. Wish we were...but we're not.

[ilikecandy]

Rover, can you go ahead and give some DATA proving your claim that supply side economics never works? Perhaps contrast it with the booming keynesian economy we have going right now?

[Downbound Train]

Looks like Bill Gates has lost his fucking mind too...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_governors_bill_gates

WASHINGTON – Even in the midst of large spending cuts, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates said Monday that schools can improve the performance of students if they put more emphasis on rewarding excellent teaching and less emphasis on paying teachers based on seniority and whether they have a master's degree.

Gates will speak with the nation's governors in Washington later Monday as they confront deficits that will require them to make many difficult decisions over the coming months. In advance of the speech, he told The Associated Press that he's concerned that many states will reduce how much money goes to education. At the same time, he's convinced that spending cuts don't necessarily have to harm students.

One way to save money would be to get more students in front of the very best teachers. Those teachers would get paid more with the savings generated from having fewer teachers overall.

"There are people in the field who think class size is the only thing," Gates said. "But in fact, the dominant factor is having a great teacher in front of the classroom.".....

[Alaskan Rover]

Rover, can you go ahead and give some DATA proving your claim that supply side economics never works? Perhaps contrast it with the booming keynesian economy we have going right now?

Okay...and this isn't really a data-set, just an example of when the principles of a pure market economy do not work. Back to the fishing analogy:

Commercial fishing is a billion plus dollar industry in US and Canada and has been for years. I've worked with many Bering Sea commercial fisherman while doing species surveys for the Ak Dept of Fish and Game and alsofederal NMFS program and I respect the hell out of most of them that I've met...and I've also been a commercial fisherman myself at various times, so I know the industry from both a regulatory side AND the fisherman's side.

In Alaska's Cook Inlet and Kachemak Bay in the early 1900's, there was a burgeoning herring industry...it was a HUGE business, and small towns across the Alaskan coast basically sprouted up in support of this mega-industry....think of the movie "Cannery Row" for an idea...even though that was California.

Anyway, industry went gang-busters for a few years, but the demand for Herring oil just kept increasing, to the point where what they thought were ENDLESS schools of herring began to dissipate.

Now, "Supply and Demand" economics dictates that as the supply goes down, the price goes up...and the price of Herring and Herring oil did go up...went through the roof. This spike in prices caused even MORE fishing effort in the area and a search for herring in other areas. The seafood companies saw monetary incentive to beget much more efficient fishing techniques, causing the herring regional biomass to decrease even further, causing the prices to go up even more. This became a never-ending loop....except it DID end....it ended when the species saw virtual extirpation in that region and the fishery collapsed. What was once a HUGE biomass of herring became virtually non-existent and certainly commercially non-viable. To this day, herring in Kachemak Bay and other Cook Inlet regions is only a small percentage of what it was before the herring boom.

Can you blame the fisherman, themselves? No...not really. Their job is to catch fish...to expect them to do otherwise is not to understand the commercial fisherman's mentality. Their ego and their reputation is DIRECTLY related to how much fish they haul in. You can't expect them to voluntarily limit their fishing quota so that future generations will have fish to fish. That would be like giving a dog a T-bone steak and expecting it to save half of it for later...hell no, it's going to be "chow-down city" and you know it.

The same thing happened with the waterfowl feather industry on the east Coast in the late 1800s. The feather industry at that time was HUGE, selling feathers for everything from feather beds to feather's for lady's hats in US and Europe. They had "contract shooters" out on the marshlands shooting waterfowl by the thousands and tens of thousands per day. They even had special huge shotguns that would shoot down 15 birds with one pull. Just like what happened in Alaska, they soon shot themselves right out of birds. They thought those flocks of birds were endless. They were wrong. To this day, those migratory flocks STILL haven't returned to their "pre-feather boom" levels....not even close. The contract shooters had the same mentality as the Ak herring fisherman...can't really blame them, rich folks were giving them SILLY amounts of money for feathers that they used to throw away.

So then again, you can not expect an industry to self-regulate when they can make temporary fabulous profits from a "supply and demand" market system.

So...in these two cases, if the government would have regulated those two industries, those species and the industries based upon them wouldn't have gone bust. But back in those dark days, our government didn't give a tin-shit about regulating things. Hell, wasn't too many years before that that they had a BOUNTY on indian scalps....and right around the same time Boss Tweed and his Taminy Hall were taking advantage of the working class and creating an American "indentured servitude".

What do you think would happen if we didn't have a government to regulate things in the supply and demand, profit-driven economy we have?? It would be pure shit.

Business simply will not self-regulate...hopefully these two examples bring home that point.

[ilikecandy]

Well, that thousand word post certainly addressed my question

[Alaskan Rover]

I know you wanted some discourse on "supply-side" economics and Keynesian theory, but went with a discourse on the faults of "supply and demand" market economy because that "supply and demand" system is basically what present day Capitalism is based upon.

My above discourse merely illustrates what CAN happen when a PARTICULAR supply and demand system is NOT properly regulated governmentally...so in that sense it contrasts a keynesian system with an overtly Freedman-esque system.

Getting into quantitative particulars of why 'trickle-down" economics doesn't work efficiently would be a dissertation.

[ilikecandy]

So you DONT have data to back up your statement? Thats so surprising from a guy who never presents his biased, wacky opinions as facts. First time for everything I guess.

[timnormandin]

Countries that produce students that routinely kick American academic asses generally don't play by the same rules. The highly touted school systems of Europe and Asia typically don't take on all comers. In the more egalitarians systems they use competitive examinations to weed the crop, they rest of them do it the old fashioned way--they simply educate the children of the elite.

[Downbound Train]

Regulation is like anything else AK. Best done in moderation. We are beyond the point of moderation relative to our competition so now we are getting our ass kicked.

Timwhateveryournameis, we have a system dumbed down so everyone can keep up. That's fucking insane. Always has been. Time to get the feds and unions out of education and let the 50 "Labratories of Democracy" and all the cities within each to design systems that work for them. I'd start by modeling some countries that kick our asses.

[creaky fossil]

I blame Faux News...seriously.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Blame it on Fox! But how about this... while their "news" promotes closed-minded blind following of The Elephant Party Line, their "entertainment" promotes anarchic humor. Is the bludgeon of Fox News overwhelming the subtle enticement of Sons of Anarchy?

[Obama Nate]

. . .

My above discourse merely illustrates what CAN happen when a PARTICULAR supply and demand system is NOT properly regulated governmentally...so in that sense it contrasts a keynesian system with an overtly Freedman-esque system.

Getting into quantitative particulars of why 'trickle-down" economics doesn't work efficiently would be a dissertation.

Good lord, man. First you "respond" to a request for data supporting your rejection of supply-side economics with a classic illustration of tragedy of the commons. Then you attempt to defend your ill-conceived post by stating that it contrasts Keynes and Friedman (as opposed to, say, Marx and Locke, or Meade and Coase)? Please elaborate. Could be humorous. But please spare yourself the embarrassment of a dissertation on the quantitative particulars of "trickle-down" economics.

[Crampedon]

Seriously. I don't think there is much we can do at this point.

The war has been won. Stupid people are breeding faster than smart people and there is no way the smart people are going to be able to catch up. The only way will be some type of disease that only affects dumbasses.

I got to the point a few years back where I realized I as an individual cannot do anything about it, I am going to enjoy my life and take care of my own and live my years in the mountains and on the ocean and on horseback.
Bang lots of pretty girls and leave a small carbon foot-print while at it.

I see the idiots in big business that own the government here in Hawaii over-building on wetlands, poisoning the air and thumbing their noses at the clean air act, raping the locals price wise on everything....

The customers in my retail store over the years have become more helpless, kids up to 15 years old can't look up from a video game or even think about fixing their bike.... Cardiologists want to drop their bike of for flat because "it's the back wheel"

Cashiers can't count, stock-clerks can't read, It's like the end of days.

Will it get better in out lifetimes?

[Dexter Rutecki]

Trickle down/supply side/voodoo econ./whatever. Kinda like Santa Claus, but less plausible. Not sure you can even find an economist this side of The Heritage Foundation who still countenances that shit.

Funny.

[ilikecandy]

Trickle down/supply side/voodoo econ./whatever. Kinda like Santa Claus, but less plausible. Not sure you can even find an economist this side of The Heritage Foundation who still countenances that shit.

Funny.

Must be kind of nice to live in a world where the only thing required to make something true is you wanting to believe it is

Which side of the heritage foundation is triage?

[powpig]

Trickle-down Reagonomics DOES NOT WORK...it NEVER has. Can't you conservatives get that through your THICK heads??? We have TOO many people in this country for that type of economic system to work. Maybe, if we only had 20 million or less....but shit I don't even know if it would work in that situation either. Trickle-down Reagonics NEVER helped anybody but the extremely wealthy. And yet, that is basically been the conservative/republicanm mantra for decades....as if cutting taxes for the wealthy will cure all ills.



Trickle down/supply side/voodoo econ./whatever. Kinda like Santa Claus, but less plausible. Not sure you can even find an economist this side of The Heritage Foundation who still countenances that shit.

Funny.


I fucking hate partisan politics. I have equal disdain for all our corrupt so called representatives who inhabit DC.
What do you guys think QE, QEII, & QEs III & up are? It's Obama's version of trickle down economics. Has the economy gotten better? CNBC, CNN & FoxNews all tell us it has. If you believe 'em then you must believe it works.

[Hugh Conway]

What do you guys think QE, QEII, & QEs III & up are? It's Obama's version of trickle down economics.

Obama's now getting blamed for the actions of the theoretically independent US Central Bank, the Federal Reserve board?

is that you uncle crud?

[ilikecandy]

Obama's now getting blamed for the actions of the theoretically independent US Central Bank, the Federal Reserve board?

is that you uncle crud?

I forget - who appoints the chairman and the rest of the board of governors?

[timnormandin]

You seem to be making the CORRECT point that teacher pay and kids performance are not connected.

As for teachers being "Highly Educated". I roomed with a guy in college for 2 years who majored in elementary education. There is no way to imagine an easier course of study at the college level. That's fine too. If that's all it takes to be a teacher, so be it. But don't come at us with this "Highly Educated" like an Engineer or lawyer or Doctor. That's a joke.

In my school no one has an undergraduate degree in education. All of us have B.A.'s & B.S.'s in our fields. Two went to Harvard, one went to Dartmouth, and four went to Teachers College at Columbia. Every teacher save two has a master's in education or a Master of arts in Teaching. Twenty of us also have masters in our fields. Two have Ed.D.'s, one has a Ph.D., and one guy has some fancy D.Phil. from some god damn school in Australia. I'd call that highly educated. Still, back in the day I knew many teachers with just the old fashioned bachelor of ed from state teachers college who were magic in the classroom. Being an effective teacher is tricky business and not easily quantifiable.

[Tuckerman]

Or are they really this fucking retarded?

EVERYONE is frustrated that countries like China, India, and almost every European nation is destroying the USA's youth in almost every subject area.

While this may kind of be true I would look closer at the numbers. China has more honor roll students then America has students, in some of Europe countries only the smart/wealthy children get to attend public school. Here is something else our school district had a position open for a HS math teacher last year and the school only received two applications. The standards to teach in publics schools are out of line.

[creaky fossil]

Obama's now getting blamed for the actions of the theoretically independent US Central Bank, the Federal Reserve board?

is that you uncle crud?

Obama is a puppet of GoldSachs. Fed run by GoldSachs operatives. Ergo, GoldSachs calling the shots.

Is the real world of how fed politics works something that is hidden from your view?

Apparently so.

[Hugh Conway]

I thought AIPAC called the shots.

[creaky fossil]

I thought AIPAC called the shots.

Maybe for a certain overweight underskilled skier/MTB rider...