Quandary Avalanche

[duph]

From the Summit Daily News:

“Mike Schmitt, spokesman for Summit Rescue Group, said a backcountry skier was on Quandary Peak south of Breckenridge at about 1 p.m. Monday afternoon when he caused a 300 foot wide avalanche.

The skier made it out safely, but his dog was buried in about three feet of snow, said Schmitt.”

I screwed up really bad. Tear me to shreds right now, because I deserve it. I feel sick. Go ahead, kick me, maybe it’ll make me feel better.

It started out innocently enough. I look at this through my window every day:

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q1.jpg

I won’t ever look at it the same way again.

It was one of those calm, sunny, yet frigidly beautiful winter days. The temperature was somewhere around zero when we were getting close to the goal.

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q2.jpg

That view makes it look steeper than it really is, and I very ignorantly thought that it simply was not steep enough to tear loose. That was my critical error. It caused other mistakes, but they all fall under the umbrella of slope-angle underestimation. This is what caused me to ignore the danger rose. It’s also why I didn’t dig a pit; and it’s why I was up there with a dog as my only partner. Bad, bad, bad.

The following are not rationalizations, nor excuses. Just some details that led to the poor judgment. I’ve looked at that bowl on a daily basis for well over a year now and I had never seen a slide on it. I’ve seen plenty of ski tracks though. And I made some of my own in that exact spot last May. After that, I just thought it was too tame of a place to be worried about. Kick me, now.

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q6.jpg

After a good long conversation with the head of the Colorado Avalanche Information Center, I am now aware of more things about that bowl. The average pitch is 28 degrees, with very brief max of 34 at exactly the spot that it released. There are few, if any sizeable rocks in it. It’s pretty much all a smooth, grassy meadow. In other words: There are no anchors to hold the snow in place.

This is a picture I took about five minutes before descending into it:

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q3.jpg

That’s Winter, aka “Black Dog”, staring down into the place where her fate would soon be decided.

At the start, the snow was thin, yet smooth and creamy. It soon became blower and powder was whisking up my thighs. It was building toward euphoria when something alarming appeared about 50 feet ahead of me. I saw snow curling up in the air and it registered. I was skiing on a moving slope. Without a thought, I stopped turning and tucked in a straight line to gain speed. I shot through the billowing cloud rather quickly, angled to the side and took a look over my shoulder.

I caught a glimpse of Winter swimming down a river of moving snow before losing sight of her when I had to pay attention to my own route. I remember thinking that she was going to make it. When I looked up again, the avalanche was slowing, but my little girl was gone.

Oh my god, what have I done?

I stopped instantly, and I don’t really remember clicking out of my skis, but I did. I probably called out her name, but I’m not sure. All I remember is running back to the slide, even as it was still running toward me. It had pretty much stopped when I was getting near and throwing off my gloves. I began fumbling for my beacon on a dead, post-holing sprint to the area I last saw her. That orange thing duct-taped to her harness in the above picture is a transmitter, and it became her only hope.

My hands were shaking, but even so, my thumb depressed the red button long enough to switch my Tracker to search mode. I remember for sure at this time that I gave out a desperate shriek of “Winter!”

Oh my god, what have I done.

I was about to become frantic beyond logic when my beacon started beeping at a slow pace. I looked at it and a flashing “32” appeared. The lights on it flickered under arrows and I wasn’t even looking at where I was going anymore. I was fixated on the arrows. Running blindly, taking my eyes off the horrid mess of debris, and being guided by instrumentation kept my panic level from rising any further. I was right on top of her in a matter of seconds. After tightly circling her twice, the closest I could get that beautiful BCA Tracker to register was “3.1” “3.1” “3.1” “3.1”.

I threw my pack off, unzipped it and flung its contents everywhere. I picked my avi-probe out of the strewn mess of gear and assembled it; my hands still shaking. “Beep-beep-beep” “Beep-beep-beep” “Beep-beep-beep” went my dangling beacon. Then there was another sound. I heard a desperate howl, through three feet of snow. It was muffled and barely audible. It was the sound of a dying dog, right next to me. A swan song, of a sort.

The probe fell to the snow unused. The handle clicked into my shovel and went to work. More crying. Both me and her. Everybody hurts, sometimes. Sometimes everything is wrong. But when you feel like letting go, when you feel you’ve had too much, hang on. Sometimes everybody cries.

The blade of my shovel found her nose first and it was pointed straight up toward the sky. I used my bare hands to uncover her face. Snow was caked into her eyes. I removed it and wept “daddy’s here, daddy’s here, daddy’s here!”

She opened her mouth, which was full of snow, and began gagging. It was a miracle.

“Daddy’s here, daddy’s here, daddy’s here!” Her mouth opened and closed, spat out some snow, and she was coughing and wheezing, but alive. There was a tiny pause before I continued working.

My hands were still shaking.

Only her head was sticking out of a wall of snow now, but at least she could breathe. I tried to minimize snow falling on her face as I dug around her, with only moderate success. Her body was twisted awkwardly and I remember shuddering – thinking her back was probably broken.

Oh my god, what have I done?

When I had her mostly uncovered though, there was another miracle.

She squirmed the rest of the way out on her own. She jumped up, shook herself off and then started licking my face. I’ll stop the world and melt with you.

I put my arms around her, held her tight and gasped. I started hyperventilating. There was immense relief in there, but even more self-loathing. “I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry.”

I think back on how terrified I was, then I realize how much more fear she must have felt. She made a mess while she was buried. I won’t show you that, but still, it was all my fault.

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q7.jpg

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q5.jpg

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q4.jpg

Minutes of reuniting had passed when I snapped this one off:

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q.jpg

We took a slow pace away from the slide, looked back often, and I couldn’t help but say aloud, “oh my god.” About 45 minutes after it all happened, this thing started hovering and circling directly above us:

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q8.jpg

I gave a thumbs up sign, wrote the letters OK in the snow, and eventually it flew away.

We headed back into the trees and followed our ascent route all the way down to the unplowed road on the way to an entourage of SAR and police folks. Here she is, back in action after all that trauma:

http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/image_upload/World/20041129q9.jpg

It’s a miracle.

But inside, I feel ugly. I keep flashing back to her wheezing and gagging with her head sticking out of the snow. You can say we were lucky, but I don’t think she felt too lucky at that point in time. I know that we were, or more accurately, that I was. It could’ve easily turned out much worse, yet I still feel sick about it. It was all my fault. I’m so sorry, girl. Will you ever trust me again? Will I trust myself?

Kick me, now. String me up and beat me like a piñata. I deserve it.

[Pinner]

Looooooooser

Way to not die, dude. Best TR ever!

[bad_roo]

Complacency nails us when we least expect it.

As long as you both got out unscathed and carried away a valuable lesson, that's all there really is to it. Nobody need flame on you.

You'd be welcome to ski with me anytime.

[up an down]

Way to not die, dude. Best TR ever!
i second the sentiment.. and i am sure we all appreciate this tr.. can't have been easy to be so candid.. you lived and you have learned, and your tr has helped us learn

[fez]

great tr, and im not being sarcastic. really glad you and winter are both ok!

Thats your free one. maybe nearly losing something you probably value damn near as much as your own life will be a wakeup call.

while im not completely opposed to skiing bc alone, you need to be even more careful doing it. stakes are raised dramatically and a smal mistake can easily become fatal. just imagine if things were reversed and winter was running around on the snow while you were buried.

If you have never done so, take an avalanche class. That is a classic release zone and you really should learn to recognize things like that.

[Yeti]

Damn. And people asked whether it was smart to have your dog wear a beacon.

Seriously, man, be careful out there.

[smolakian]

Thanks for the great TR and the pics. We all need to be reminded that no matter how much we think we are badasses on skis, a bitch slap from mother nature can hit us anytime.

[Keoni]

Too early in the am, but that woke my ass right up. Glad your dog's ok. At first, I didn't think this TR was going to have a happy ending. Guess we know your stance on the dogs/beacons issue.

[Tippster]

Why should I beat on you? Sounds like you're doing a fine job on yourself already.

Way to go w/the tracker on the dog. You were stupid this time, but accidents do happen as well.

Although we've never met, I'm glad you're BOTH OK.

[Artie Fufkin]

Wow, glad you and the dog made it.


After a good long conversation with the head of the Colorado Avalanche Information Center, I am now aware of more things about that bowl. The average pitch is 28 degrees, with very brief max of 34 at exactly the spot that it released. There are few, if any sizeable rocks in it. It’s pretty much all a smooth, grassy meadow. In other words: There are no anchors to hold the snow in place.

Thanks for posting, you may have prevented some future avy accidents up there.

[Meathelmet]

Good post.
More than happy that both you and your dog is ok.

It is sad that considering the number of outings/skidays in the BC we have on this board, yet we have so little posts/discussion of this topic.

I think most of us have had their close calls,many have been in one and somebody have even had sorrow to loose someone in a avy, and yet the whole topic is like a hot potatoe.

Im glad that you "came out of the closet" on this subject and hopefully this
is a beginning for more open post on this avy topic.
It´s good to have post stoke, but even better to post some info that actually can save somebodys life in the longer run.



Ps. Was that a "normal" 457mhz transciever or the "dog-only" versions?
God subject to talk about too...If it was a regular one, perhaps not
the wisest (well,in this case it was!) thing to do, considering you
both would have been buried, and you would have gotten the SAR
team to dig you up..

Rock on.

[A-wreck]

good story.

[cmsummit]

Glad to see you and your dog are okay.

I've never seen such a large slide in that bowl before either. I've seen smaller slides, but that one is LARGE! For six years I lived in the house next to the Quandary trailhead. I've prolly skied that bowl about 8 times, but never after a substantial dumping, never after substantial wind-loading, and never without a two-legged partner. With this sketchy CO snowpack I try to ski most of my high-angle bc in the spring when our snowpack mimics more of a maritime snowpack rather than a continental snowpack. Those concave bowls that gradually roll over into a slope of ~35deg. are dangerous. Pretty similar to the skier left side of Horseshoe bowl at Breck except that Horseshoe does have better anchors. Dig a pit!

Have fun and keep it safe!!

[Tap]

holy shit. wow. i'm shaken and i'm reading this from a desk hundreds of miles away.

very glad you're o.k.

same goes for your baby.

thank you for taking the time to so vividly share your experience.

it's a lesson for us all.

"Hello Backcountry Access, I'd like to order one digital Tracker please..."

[ulty_guy]

we're all very glad you're ok, duph.

[Crinkle]

HOLY CRAP MAN. Super glad to hear you and Winter made it out in one piece, with lessons learned. Must have been a tough one to tell, but glad you did, kicks us all down a notch.

[EPSkis]

Amazing.

I supppose in hindsight, you can think of dozens of reasons why you should have been more careful. It looks tame, and you've been on it before without incident. Hindsight's always 20//20.

Glad you & your pup are ok, Duph.

You take her to a Vet just to make sure she doesn't have any internal injuries?

[The Reverend Floater]

Good for you for posting about it, Duph. Seriously...a great, very informative TR that everyone should read. I am surprised that you didn't know the slope angles given your experience, but I guess you do now! GLAD YOU ARE OKAY! :yourock: :yourock:

[FreakofSnow]

Nice recount, glad you are okay.

[watersnowdirt]

So glad you and the dog are ok. I'm having to wipe some tears away reading that. I can only imagine what it would be like to have to dig your baby out of a slide. Good god, that would be awful. Good for you for having a beacon on her, despite all the other decisions that led you to be out there alone. Things are not black and white - good or bad. You know you could have done things differently, but you did several things right that saved her life.

So sorry you had to go through it. That's a mistake you won't make twice.

Give Winter a hug for me.

[hev]

thanks for sharing. it's refreshing to see a thread where the skier is critiqueing thier own judgement. so glad every being came out of it ok.

[The AD]

That's a great and scary read. I'm sure at this point you're thinking the money you spent on the beacon for Winter is the best money you ever spent. So glad everything turned out o.k.

But I thought the rule here was everyone overestimates the pitch of a slope, not underestimates it! :D

[bad_roo]

That's a great and scary read. I'm sure at this point you're thinking the money you spent on the beacon for Winter is the best money you ever spent. So glad everything turned out o.k.

What if I said there was a rule whereby everyone overestimates the pitch of a slope, not underestimates it? Well, I'm saying it.

Sorry. Couldn't resist. :yourock:

[Stu Gotz]

Duph - not to kick the provebial palomino, but glad you are okay.

A question - what would have alerted SARS and the police to the slide? You and your dog got out fairly quickly and you were there by yourself. Does the beacon alert the authorities in search mode? BC jong question.

[The AD]

Sorry. Couldn't resist. :yourock:

Damn journalists. :cussing:

[homerjay]

Glad you and the pooch are okay. You're very lucky to be alive, though, that seems like a classic "no-go" situation, and you went.

[cmsummit]

A question - what would have alerted SARS and the police to the slide? You and your dog got out fairly quickly and you were there by yourself. Does the beacon alert the authorities in search mode? BC jong question.

That slide is quite visible from Highway 9 and you could see the ski tracks into it. Somebody obviously called it in. A guy I work with lives real close to Duph and was checking out the slide through his binoculars. He actual saw Duph standing at the base of the slide and saw the helicopter circling so he knew that SAR was dispatched.

[PowderPig]

Holy crap! Scary reading.

Glad you came out of that one OK - both of you.

It's easy to be judgemental and say "I would never do something like that", but this is something that could happen to many of us, in one way or another. All too easy to "forget" your avalanche knowledge on a bluebird day...
It's a story that is necessary to tell and I'm glad you live to tell it.

[Stu Gotz]

That slide is quite visible from Highway 9 and you could see the ski tracks into it. Somebody obviously called it in. A guy I work with lives real close to Duph and was checking out the slide through his binoculars. He actual saw Duph standing at the base of the slide and saw the helicopter circling so he knew that SAR was dispatched.

Thanks. Achems Razor (simplist solution is probably the right one).

[MOHSHSIHd]

wow duph, i think everyone learned a lesson from that one. Events like that help us grow. Im sitting here in school and nearly shed a tear reading that cause i thought "where winter eventually met her fate" meant that she was lost for good.

[Kya]

I respect anyone who admits their mistakes, especially when in a scenerio such as this. I think everyone who reads this thread will take away something that will help in their own decision making. Thanks for sharing with honesty your mistakes and your story.

[Mrs Roo]

You made me cry!

In Winter's eyes you saved her and she'll love you unquestioningly (as dogs do). Take care out there and let this be a warning to all.

[bad_roo]

You made me cry!

In Winter's eyes you saved her and she'll love you unquestioningly (as dogs do). Take care out there and let this be a warning to all.
Do you love me unquestioningly?

[iceman]

Are you calling her a dog?

[bad_roo]

No. But she does have a wet nose.

[iceman]

Just means she's healthy.

[telechuck]

Duph,

Glad you and Winter are ok.

Thanks for sharing. This is a refreshing look at a mistake you made. Most people are not willing to take such an inward look at such a mistake. I know I am taking something from this and I am sure all others are.

I hope to see you out there soon.

[ulty_guy]

Just means she's healthy.

i normally smell her ass just to make sure.

doh!

[PNWbrit]

Thanks for your brutal honesty - took more balls than the sickest, steepest line anyone here will ever ski.

Glad your pup is o.k. and that her wearing a beacon worked this time. We could so easily have been reading how the heli crew only found your body after having pulled her from the snow first.

[Trackhead]

Thanks for sharing this.

This one hits home because I frequently ski alone with my pooch. And I will continue to do so, but very conservatively as always.

[UTdave]

Are you calling her a dog?
she's a bitch.

[Xover]

Best TR ever!

ditto
glad you're both still alive

[Hicks]

Damn,

That one was scary.
Glad your pup made it out and - more important - you managed to escape.
Close relatives and friends of mine did not - stay safe!

[bad_roo]

she's a bitch.
Now there's an observation.

[killclimbz]

Great post. I was wondering what had happened up there. Glad the dog is ok. I have an Arva Bip I keep on one of my pooches too. Not a bad investment for less than $90 bucks. Quandary in general has mellow slopes but there is a couple of steeper shots. That peak has killed in the past before, and it's usually this time of year. Glad to hear you were ok, and obviously you practice with your beacon and probe. Nice work :cool:

[Buzzworthy]

Very glad to hear both you and Winter are ok!!

I appreciate you taking the time to share this experience with us, as I certainly took away good information from reading that.

Very intense, I can't imagine. I am so glad you had a beacon on your dog, Winter thanks you too.

I takes a good man to admit their mistakes and an even better man to share with others the details of those mistakes.

You and Winter are alive and that is something to cherish. As a BC jong, that story was both eye opening and informative.

Buzz

[lph]

duph, IMHO, no one should even think about flaming you over this.

Sometimes, as in this case, no one can be harder on you than you are on yourself (or something like that).

I am really really glad you both came out ok.

Although in retrospect you made a mistake by going out that day, you have clearly learned a lesson about making assumptions and judging odds based on past experiences; it doesn't work.

You put winter at risk, but you also saved her life and you have clearly given her a great life by bringing her into the b/c with you.

Greatest TR EVER!

[natty dread]

Thanks for posting that.

[H-man]

Very happy to hear the happy ending duph. Glad all is Ok.

Now I know that it is time to get back on the horse, and I'm confident that you will do it safely. Good lesson learned.

[Ireallyliketoski]

Absolutely terrifying. Glad that everyone is OK but I can't help but read all these trip reports day after day and think it's just a matter of time before we lose someone from this community. The odds are there and the further we progress tragedy free the more the odds are stacked against us. Please everyone be careful, powder isn't worth losing a little finger over let alone your life.

[bcrider]

Although in retrospect you made a mistake by going out that day

The mistake wasn’t going out…it was going out were he went, ie steep, windloaded rollover.

Duph and Winter could have most likely skied powder all day long in the trees without incident. This would have been a better option on a solo adventure in these conditions.

I’m really glad everything turned out ok. As others have said, props for sharing the experience and admitting your mistakes!

I had a similar sobering experience last winter when I feel asleep at the wheel walking along a ridge and almost fell off with a cracked cornice. It would have been an extremely stupid mistake as staying back on ridges is one of the basic rules for safe travel and I knew this.

http://www.tahoebackcountry.net/features/tallac_kalmia/images/007_tallac.jpg

Live and learn! :)

[iskibc]

Matt,

It takes a lot of guts to post a report like this, and I hope that others will learn from your experience as well. I Got a nasty feeling in my stomach the other day when I heard about the incident before talking to you on the phone. Glad you and winter are alright, and look forward to making many more trips into the bc with you. Use this experience as an educational tool. This goes to show that experience doesn't mean anything if you're not constantly thinking of the potential dangers and taking the very basic precautions out there.

[truth]

Glad you both made it back. You're a good dog owner and a lousy Avy expert. Awesome dog ya got there.

[Ripzalot]

POTY! :D








damn ten character limit.....

[el_jefe]

thanks for being so honest about mistakes made and lessons learned. we _all_ have something important to learn from this tragedy narrowly averted, no matter how much experience we have.

[iskibc]

Glad you both made it back. You're a good dog owner and a lousy Avy expert. Awesome dog ya got there.

So, you're automatically a lousy avy expert if you start a slide?

[Ireallyliketoski]

So, you're automatically a lousy avy expert if you start a slide?

Quite the opposite. I believe most avalanches triggered by very experienced backcountry skiers. Something like the more experienced you are, the more knowledge you have, the more that you are willing to push things. At least that's what the statistics show year after year.

edited for clarity.

[skiguide]

thank you, Duph for sharing your story, definitely an eye opener for many, and it certainly sounds like a scary experience, but LIVE and Learn, as I"m sure you will. We're all so relieved you and Winter are ok, and I"m personally glad you had a beacon on her.

repeating EPSkis question cause inquiring minds want to know:


You take her to a Vet just to make sure she doesn't have any internal injuries?

[cmsummit]

You're a good dog owner and a lousy Avy expert.

That's a dumb statement.

[Mountain Freak]

Great story...
This is not only a good lesson for you, but for all of us. Those who learn from their own mistakes are smart... Those who learn from others' mistakes are wise.

[truth]

So, you're automatically a lousy avy expert if you start a slide?


No, but the list of self admitted errors made in this story would seem to prove my statement true.

[truth]

That's a dumb statement.

Thanks for playing.

[Meathelmet]

No, but the list of self admitted errors made in this story would seem to prove my statement true.

There have been a share of experied bc:ers and avalanche professionals that have been caught up by the odds/breaking their own rules in the past and will be in the future.

You can hardly say that they are "lousy avy experts".

It is just that the positive reinforcement (been there before,it has never avalanched,just a quitck lap) might get you caught in the end if you let your guard down.

We are humans after all.

[truth]

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking here, but it seems like truth doesn't agree. If you spend 200+ days in the backcountry, I would guess that you would be at more of a risk. Making a statement saying one is a bad avy expert because he sets a slide off is ignorant. So, my wife who doesn't ski must be an expert because she has never started a slide?


Setting off the slide had nothing to do with my statement, but reading comprehsion is clearly not a skill you own. Ignoring basic avy risk assessment procedures and skiing a slope with no pit in conditions that were marginal at best accroding to the "rose", based on never having seen a slope slide or having layed tracks on it last May is what my opinion was based on.

[truth]

There have been a share of experied bc:ers and avalanche professionals that have been caught up by the odds/breaking their own rules in the past and will be in the future.

You can hardly say that they are "lousy avy experts".




Yes, yes I can.

[iskibc]

Setting off the slide had nothing to do with my statement, but reading comprehsion is clearly not a skill you own. Ignoring basic avy risk assessment procedures and skiing a slope with no pit in conditions that were marginal at best accroding to the "rose", based on never having seen a slope slide or having layed tracks on it last May is what my opinion was based on.

Ok, this statement makes sense. Good on you. However, does one instance still make him a lousy avy expert? Every time I've been out with duph he has taken every precaution in making sure we were safe. Again, we are human.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

duph -- thanks for posting that. glad you and Winter are ok.

[Buster Highmen]

Props to you for the TR and ball grabbing (testifying) honesty.

[Phil]

Yeah !

Way to live for sure. Great to hear that all turned out for the best. Lots of love is always nice to read about ! It gave me shivers man. Nice writing and thanks for sharing

[AltaPowderDaze]

Glad you both made it back. You're a good dog owner and a lousy Avy expert. Awesome dog ya got there.

i don't remember anyone calling him an avalanche expert. is he a professional of some sort?

i don't think there are many people that can call themselves experts in the field and even then it is other people callng them that. i've found that the more age/knowlege a person has, the more humble they are.

it is tough to always have your A game when you see bluebird. it's even worse when those dangers, especially multiple, are buried and you have little sign. unfortunatly, not everyone calls in to the avy center before they go out. sometimes you just forget to. without that knowledge you are really just testing your skills without all the info. if the skills or your wandering mind fail you, then bad things can happen. i don't know the prior specifics of the snowpack so i can't really speak to the terrain being acceptable, but in a more stable pack that hill looks like fun. duph, glad you and the pooch came through ok. we learn as we go through life. it looks like you have turned this into a positive experience for many on the board. i hope you continue to get out in the bc and enjoy the conditional terrain. thanks for sharing :)

[Foggy_Goggles]

Thanks for posting -- A learning experience for all.

I don't know what an "Avy expert is". I do know that well educated skiers do get caught in slides. I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference, but an error is judgement is very different than a lack of knowledge.

[MOHSHSIHd]

I can believe anyone would flame him for this post....


it takes balls to admit your mistakes....We ALL fuck up from time to time. Shit happens. Personally I would have skied the same line. Maybe even after digging a pit. But i would have been with another human.


Once winter learns how to operate a beacon with paws she will be the perfect BC buddy! That dog will be ever loyal!



edit: powdaze: the CAIC was saying nothing put bad things after the new snow. Weak layer upon weak layer. FYI

[phUnk]

Glad you two are OK. I definitely felt sick to my stomach reading that. http://www.tetongravity.com/ubb/icons/icon11.gif

[truth]

Thanks for posting -- A learning experience for all.

I don't know what an "Avy expert is". I do know that well educated skiers do get caught in slides. I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference, but an error is judgement is very different than a lack of knowledge.


Does knowledge without the judgement to apply it have a value?

My original comment was not a flame, just props for diggin out his dog when his guiding choices got them in a jam. I can imagine the gut wrenching feeling in thinking one may have lost a best friend, I've been there. He's a good dog owner because he had a beacon on his dog and knew how to use it. Knowledge applied.

[iskibc]

Does knowledge without the judgement to apply it have a value?

My original comment was not a flame, just props for diggin out his dog when his guiding choices got them in a jam.

No, it has very little value at all. I agree with you that he made a bad decision to ski the slope based on all the variables (no pit, no partner, fresh loading, avy warning issued, etc.). Yes, he used poor judgement on that day, however, that still doesn't make him a person that makes poor judgement all the time.

* I mean for this to be a discussion and not turn into a flame war. Let's keep it at that.

[tibaher]

First off: Nice TR (esp the song references) and good beacon work!

Now onto my own agenda ;)

I've been researching doggie beacons for a while now, and (song ref) still haven't found what I'm looking for. (song ref)

I have found only the Arva Bip and the Ortovox D1 as far as transmit only transceivers. As far as I can tell both of these operate on the standard 457mh signal (or whatever it is) and as much as I love my dogs, I would prefer to find my wife first if they were all three buried! Or for that matter to be found first. Even though I am sure my dogs would lay down their life for me, I choose to be selfish!

Does anyone know of another transmit only beacon that operates on a separate frequency? I know Snow Dog posted about on a little over a year ago... but my search skills are rusty

[Buster Highmen]

I thought an AVy expert was the kid who knew how to thread the movie camera.
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Can we stop whining and windging now?

[PNWbrit]

First off: Nice TR (esp the song references) and good beacon work!

Now onto my own agenda ;)

I've been researching doggie beacons for a while now, and (song ref) still haven't found what I'm looking for. (song ref)

I have found only the Arva Bip and the Ortovox D1 as far as transmit only transceivers. As far as I can tell both of these operate on the standard 457mh signal (or whatever it is) and as much as I love my dogs, I would prefer to find my wife first if they were all three buried! Or for that matter to be found first. Even though I am sure my dogs would lay down their life for me, I choose to be selfish!

Does anyone know of another transmit only beacon that operates on a separate frequency? I know Snow Dog posted about on a little over a year ago... but my search skills are rusty

http://www.sos-find.com/ - sled bug

[tibaher]

thanks.8910

[The AD]

I thought an AVy expert was the kid who knew how to thread the movie camera.

You probably need to be above a certain age to get this one. I imagine there aren't many movie projectors in schools these days. That sucks, too. Kids will never know the joy caused when the teacher lets you watch a movie backwards.

[PNWbrit]

You probably need to be above a certain age to get this one. I imagine there aren't many movie projectors in schools these days. That sucks, too. Kids will never know the joy caused when the teacher lets you watch a movie backwards.

I always enjoyed the times the teacher fucked up and melted the film.

[homerjay]

One mistake does not a "lousy Avy expert" make. Very experienced people get caught all of the time, more likely to put themselves into questionable situations.

If I may add, and I'm guilty of this myself, it's easy to sit in front of the computer saying "you shoudn't have skied it" or "I wouldn't have skied it" but I bet many would have different actions had we been contemplating dropping into that nice untracked shot.

Kudos to duph for communicating it to us so well.

[skiguide]

Once winter learns how to operate a beacon with paws she will be the perfect BC buddy! That dog will be ever loyal!


on a slightly related note - if people are going to regularly take dogs (any mutt included) into the BC, wouldn't some avalanche find & seek type training be good for them too? even if they aren't going to become pro avie dogs, it still could be helpful, provided they aren't buried themselves like poor winter.

not that this will help me any cause my Rott is far from the smart type like the one who dialed 911 and unlocked the door for the paramedics, he's lucky if he can find his own ass to lick.

[powstash]

I'm amazed you had the presence of mind to take all those photos...

You'll appreciate the next tour with winter all the more now....enjoy.

[Mcwop]

Great post, and nobody should hesitate posting this sort of thing. The knowledge is very valuable. The american whitewater affiliation keeps a database of accidents and deaths, so that others may learn from it- e.g. the geographic hazards of a particular rapid or river.

[Ireallyliketoski]

Thanks for posting -- A learning experience for all.

I don't know what an "Avy expert is". I do know that well educated skiers do get caught in slides. I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference, but an error is judgement is very different than a lack of knowledge.

Ain't that the truth. It's funny how people on this site diss the BC jongs, but time after time the statistics show that it's experienced skiers that get caught in slides and they almost always make some error in judgement. The experience often clouds proper judgement. By the same token, the days when I had no idea what I was doing and would ski a saturated 45 degree slopes at 4 pm on a 60 degree day were filled with ignorant bliss.

[Keoni]

You probably need to be above a certain age to get this one. I imagine there aren't many movie projectors in schools these days. That sucks, too. Kids will never know the joy caused when the teacher lets you watch a movie backwards.

It is now called Media Lab in middle and high school.

Was anyone in the AV club?

[PlayHarder]

Thanks for posting, always good to get a reminder to keep your head up always. Glad it ended like it did.

[climb2ski]

Good idea giving the dog a beacon. Good thing she did not have to turn hers on to look for you. Great TR

[Mountain Junkie]

Again, thanks for sharing. Rarely do you read first hand accounts with as much depth of emotion.

But I have a bone to pick with the board. So, snowfire posts a TR earlier this season, including various precautions they took, and gets flambed by the board. Yet duph makes several critical mistakes that many people are ignoring or justifying with the "even experience people blah, blah, blah". Seems like a bullshit double standard.

Two more rants:
Yes, experienced people do get caught in avys, because they are unpredictable. However, some avalanches are more predictable than others.

Also, I get concerned when people say "well the [CAIC] rose said X, you should have known conditions were going to be bad". With the weather pattern that Colorado had in the past week, you should KNOW what the "rose" is going to be. Even an idiot like me knew what the avalanche report was going to be before it loaded. The rose is a great resource, but people need to stick their heads out the window and use the grey matter.

[truth]

* I mean for this to be a discussion and not turn into a flame war. Let's keep it at that.

Exactly, there are lessons we can all learn from here in.

[Karl Stall]

Duph - I thought that was a cool post. That's one huge-ass second chance. It humbling to me, for sure. wow.

Everyone have a safe winter! -Rock

[Buster Highmen]

It is now called Media Lab in middle and high school.

Was anyone in the AV club?
And here I thought you were in the Labia Med in school.

[iceman]

I don't remember the snowfire incident that Mountain Junkie referred to. What happened there?

[bad_roo]

I don't remember the snowfire incident that Mountain Junkie referred to. What happened there?
Basom thought she looked a bit like Christina Ricci and tried to project an Avalanche Safety movie onto her forehead.

[homerjay]

I don't remember the snowfire incident that Mountain Junkie referred to. What happened there?

here (http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18092)

but I like roo's answer better.

[bigsugar]

Jeez........that was a scary as hell TR.
Way to be in the aftermath though.
Glad things are okay.

Give the dog the good food, out of the can, tonight.

Actually, just get her a steak. :)

[shamrockpow]

Ain't that the truth. It's funny how people on this site diss the BC jongs, but time after time the statistics show that it's experienced skiers that get caught in slides and they almost always make some error in judgement. The experience often clouds proper judgement. By the same token, the days when I had no idea what I was doing and would ski a saturated 45 degree slopes at 4 pm on a 60 degree day were filled with ignorant bliss.

Let's not forget Bayes Law here*. THe most experienced people are the ones out there every day, so they're more likely to be involved when bad stuff going down. Probably does have something to do with the positive reinforcement loop, but I wouldn't be sloughing off the first hand knowledge that experienced BC travellers have just b/c they too are human and make errors.


*p(B|A) = p(A|B)p(B)/p(A)

[iceman]

Basom thought she looked a bit like Christina Ricci and tried to project an Avalanche Safety movie onto her forehead.

Ah, that explains it. Did he try to dig her pits as well?



thanks, homerjay

[Showtime06]

WOW...lesson learned...goood to know everyone made it out and your dog is alright...becareful out there

[board]

Duph next time I see you you're getting a smack upside the head ! Thank God you are ok but I might change that. Seriously though glad you and Winter came out all right.

page 5 ! I can't believe I missed this. I need to get back on here more often

[PNWbrit]

But I have a bone to pick with the board. So, snowfire posts a TR earlier this season, including various precautions they took, and gets flambed by the board.

Errrrrr. is it just me or didn't that end up as someone making a fundamental although not obvious error in snow science "shallow snow pack always = less danger". Then having an pro/expert helpfully and politely correct him and point out he'd conducted investigations into fatal accidents on the exact same slope in similar conditions. After some argument pro/experts advice was ageed with.

That exchange of info and education is far more useful than the normal "which powder boards are sickest this season brah" and should be encouraged.

Duph immediately sacked up and admitted his errors on the day in question so no one needed to correct him. That's why these posts are so different in character.

[Buster Highmen]

I am NOT being defensive, asshole.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Snowfire is a she.

[PNWbrit]

Snowfire is a she.

my bad.....

[Ireallyliketoski]

Let's not forget Bayes Law here*. THe most experienced people are the ones out there every day, so they're more likely to be involved when bad stuff going down. Probably does have something to do with the positive reinforcement loop, but I wouldn't be sloughing off the first hand knowledge that experienced BC travellers have just b/c they too are human and make errors.


*p(B|A) = p(A|B)p(B)/p(A)

That's what so terrifying about this whole thing. You read these BC trip reports every day and with each passing TR it's just a matter of time before something truly tragic happens and you won't see any replies with glad everyone made it out okay. The odds are there and the further we progress tragedy free the more the odds are stacked against us. Please everyone be careful, powder isn't worth losing a little finger over let alone your life.

Duph you are one lucky bastard, with so many terrible decisions made and coming out unscatched that's your get out of jail free card. Make the most of it buddy.

[Summit]

Again, glad everyone was OK. Thank God.

Duph made mistakes. He recognizes them. I think he learned. Hopefully he won't make them again.

SAR was very glad we didn't have to go into the field. It was a dangerous day and it would have been unpleasant business.

Let's have another year without any dead maggots!!!

Here is Winter and Nellie (one of SAR's avalanche dogs) getting acquianted:

[jibij]

Sobering read, duph. Thanks for posting. It could very well save a life.

[freshies]

wow, glad you and winter are OK! always good to see these types of TR's (well, not really, no one wants to see anyone caugh in an avy) and the discussions that follow. i think that when one ventures out into their "back yard" (e.g. a peak/area one knows well), its easy to let your guard down. i know i am guilty of hitting the Donner Summit area solo w/my dog on lots of occassions - i know the area well, and the general rule of thumb in the Sierra is wait 2 days after a storm and all is OK (obviously, I check the local avy forecast first, talk to others that ski there a bunch and occassionally dig a pit, etc). It's easy to take for granted your knowledge of a local area and assume that its always gonna be OK if you play it safe when out solo, etc.

This was sobering.....Again, thanks for sharing and am so glad that you and your dog are OK.

[meatdrink9]

Great write-up duph. I'm certainly not going to judge you. We all takes risks in this sport. I think you did a ton of really good things on the hill that day. I'm glad to see everything worked out as well as it did.

BTW, that heli is Flight For Life (one of our clients). We're filming an Avalanche Safety video in a couple of weeks. Sounds like you'd be good talent or at least have a good story to tell.

[basom]

BTW, that heli is Flight For Life (one of our clients). We're filming an Avalanche Safety video in a couple of weeks. .

you mind if me and the AV guys project that on christina ricci's forehead when its done?


everyone said what i was going to say. glad you are not drown. very glad. be safe.

[meatdrink9]

you mind if me and the AV guys project that on christina ricci's forehead when its done?


How's about a Bighorn sheep having it's way with the whelk projected onto Cristina Ricci's forehead?

[Blurred]

How's about a Bighorn sheep having it's way with the whelk projected onto Cristina Ricci's forehead?
2 drops of pee....good shit mang.

[Kellie]

I'll second the thanks for a great TR and relief that you're both okay. I agree with MD9 that we all take risks out there . . . is an expert skier no longer an expert if they huck a cliff without adequately checking the landing and end up injured, or worse?!?! Danger is inherent in our sport. Knowledge, experience, and judgement are invaluable, and repeating mistakes is largely unforgiveable . . . but we all get to a point in our lives that we continue to push boundaries, have excessive confidence in our situation, and need a "reminder" of what we know - on or off the hill.

Props to duph for sharing and, more importantly, for reflecting. And may you have many safe turns in the future!

[Blurred]

I'll second the thanks for a great TR and relief that you're both okay. I agree with MD9 that we all take risks out there . . . is an expert skier no longer an expert if they huck a cliff without adequately checking the landing and end up injured, or worse?!?! Danger is inherent in our sport. Knowledge, experience, and judgement are invaluable, and repeating mistakes is largely unforgiveable . . . but we all get to a point in our lives that we continue to push boundaries, have excessive confidence in our situation, and need a "reminder" of what we know - on or off the hill.

Props to duph for sharing and, more importantly, for reflecting. And may you have many safe turns in the future!



There's a difference between being carefree and careless. Duph was the latter.

[basom]

totaly fucking amazing shit



i'm speachless.

that is pure, unadulterated beauty. i'm mezmerized. just wow.
beauty, a shit ton of beauty to the dome piece. fuck.

[tuffy 1O9]

It snows like a foot and a half. All that snow on 3 week old rotten snow. Avalanche danger was on high, and there was an avalanche warning in the area. Dumbass goes out by himself, and decides to ski. Not in the trees, but in a open bowl with NO natural anchors. He skies a 34 degree slope, perfect for sliding.

Being a complacent backcountry beater will get you killed, you almost scored a Darwin award Einstein.

Don't ask me to feel sorry for him.....Glad the dog was rescued. You should be locked up for doggie endangerment.

[iceman]

Sheep vs. Whelk?

That sheep is drown soon.

Hope Christina survives, she should live to breed.

[basom]

i'm the fake tuffy. hello everyone. i'm not real. i'm pretending.

..........

[seldon]

There's a difference between being carefree and careless. Duph was the latter.


It snows like a foot and a half. All that snow on 3 week old rotten snow. Avalanche danger was on high, and there was an avalanche warning in the area. Dumbass goes out by himself, and decides to ski. Not in the trees, but in a open bowl with NO natural anchors. He skies a 34 degree slope, perfect for sliding.

Being a complacent backcountry beater will get you killed, you almost scored a Darwin award Einstein.

Don't ask me to feel sorry for him.....Glad the dog was rescued. You should be locked up for doggie endangerment.

A faint resemblance? I hope not. You have more integrity than this Blurred, regardless of what you do with your other aliases (aliai?).

Glad you and Winter made it out alright. That's a very sobering picture and a very sobering story, specially for someone who wants to begin doing non-guided BC stuff this season in the US.

[Dr. Gaper]

Maybe a human partner would be more appropriate!

Why anyone would tour a 14er by themselves (or with their four legged woman) during the unstable pre-season is beyond me. :nonono2:

It could of been the other way around you know. Dog setting one off on you! Does your bitch have beacon skills?

[gimpy]

self-righteous people suck.

thanx for sharing duph. that hit home hard.

[Vets]

Glad to hear that both you and your dog are okay.
Your have me convinced to get better backcountry gear and take a class.

[meatdrink9]

Sheep vs. Whelk?

That sheep is drown soon.


ha ha.

Don't worry, the sheep is just giving the whelk a bukkake refill.

[bad_roo]

I can imagine being buried in an avalanche and seeing the shining light at the end of the tunnel. And it turns out to be a bighorn sheep mounting a whelk projected onto Christina Ricci's mekon.

Awesome. Just breathtaking.

[subtle plague]

Scary shit. Im glad you got her back.

concerning the expert thing:even UIAA Guides end up in Avalanches eventually.....you just have ski often enough. if you take only the slightest risk it can happen some day. which does't mean that it will happen if you take huge risks everytime. (bloody statistics). You can only make decisions and if your decision is wrong you have to bear the consequences. you can never be entirely safe if you ski in the backcountry. Im glad this time the consquences were only a good reminder to be careful out there.
Intense writeup btw.

[Mrs Roo]

she's a bitch.

Oi! Who told you?

(just read page 2 of the thread and Roo is going to get an ass kicking when I get home)

[bad_roo]

Wet nose!!!

[Svengali]

To quote an old dead avalanche expert "the avalanche does not know who the expert is!!"
careful out there folks!
DUPH, glad you and your doggie are ok!

[Mrs Roo]

Wet nose!!!

Wet pants!!!!

[bad_roo]

That was a very stressful moment.

[fondigley]

Thanks Duph for sharing your amazing story filled with miracles and suspense. Thanks for enlightening our minds as well. Such a good read. It's good to hear you are alright, especially after peeping those pics.

[duph]

I'd like to thank you all for your heartwarming responses, and also give thanks to those who were harsh on me. Like I said, I deserve that, and no one feels worse about it than me. I'm still having vivid recollections of the most horrifying moments and they are kicking my ass. I suck.

[WestFromWisco]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!! That was REALLY interesting. I was moving into my new place which is about 40 yards from the trailhead where you're dog was meeting the avi dog. I saw that slide, which must have happened about 10 minutes before I saw it, and minutes later as I was moving in I saw the chopper. I was sooooo glad to hear you made it the next morning in The Summit Daily. Peace.

[Benny Profane]

Hell of a story. Glad you were around to tell it. Has any "official" involved with avi research contacted you, or vice versa?

[ISL]

Bump for perspective.