ACL-friendly setup

[Big E]

As one of the more elite members of the Non-OEM Knee Club (NOCK) - elite in this case meaning having done both knees - I'm thinking more carefully now about my equipment choices.

I am not approaching rock star status by any means, and only go about 165 lbs, so big, burly boards aren't really a requirement for me. In fact, ever since the BC Summit and our day at Lake Louise watching powslut effortlessly make a mockery of the rest of our skiing (no offense to those present of course) on 183 Sugar Daddy's, and then hearing him say later "I don't know why I'd ever need anything longer than these," I think something in the 180-183 range is more board than I'll ever need, especially considering my limited days on real snow. And of course, living in MD, deep days occur more by dumb luck than anything else.

So shorter sticks would definitely produce less torque on the knee. Softness/stiffness of them seems like it would remain something that would have to be matched to personal style, strength, etc. although even if they came in a 180, I'm sure the Bro Pros would have me in the backseat and put my liggies in jeopardy.

Then I would think you'd want to ski at as low a DIN setting as you can without having them come off unexpectedly. Of course, that is a fuzzy line.

And then boots. A post a while back, by Telekoptero or maybe Jiekh..., got me thinking that maybe I should go to a touring boot like Garmonts, something with a lower cuff that would also put less torque on the knee. I would think these would also have the roundabout benefit of forcing you to be more balanced over your skis, rather than relying on the boot for support.

[LaramieSkiBum]

blew my ACL my Junior year of HS....

Too much quads...not enough hamstrings...now I'm missing a hamstring thanks to surgery.

My suggestion to all you kree prone injury folk --> working the shit out of your legs is good...but make positive you work more than quads....balance everything out hams, quads, calves.

Use free weights if you can, they will work those stabilizing muscles.

Since the reconstruction I have skied harder than ever (nearly 6 years ago), granted the aches and pains are always there but I know my hams and quads are balanced decent - preventing that over extention ACL snapping shizzle.

I have been on Solly 912s for 4 years and many days...hovering around 8-10 DIN (Im 190lbs / 6foot)....and have never torqued either of my knees badly, and I tend to ski long...190 X-screams (destroyed them, literally fell apart), 185 PR's (in the process of destroying them) and 182 Supersport 6* (indestructible). I'll be riding on 177 karmas soon, so I guess I'm going shorter too.

[altagirl]

Keeping your muscles strong is definitely step one, but I think gear can make a difference too.

I'd been skiing 178-180's for everything for ages, which for a girl is decently long - and stiff skis like G4's/G41s. And after my 2nd knee surgery I figured it would be a good idea to have at least one shorter, softer ski - that I could use for trees and on days when my knees needed something easier.

I went all the way down to 167 Phat Luvs. Hell, when Mr.AG went to order them for me for Christmas, Trudy made him double check because she couldn't believe that's what I wanted. But they're great, and they're a lot more stable and I use them in a lot more situations than I expected I would. There are times when you still want longer boards, but I think it's worth adding a shorter softer ski to your quiver.

And I have been able to turn down the DIN a bit on my Rossi bindings with no problem, not that I ever had them super high to start with.

The only problem I see with touring boots is that you should NOT be using them with regular alpine bindings because of the rubber sole. They don't release right. I just had a friend think he blew his knee because he cartwheeled down the mountain and skis never released and he's using that combo, which his shop warned him against. If you do use AT boots, you should use them with AT bindings too. Maybe that would help. I do think skiing tele is safer on my knees, even if they don't release - they so much play and wrecking feels a lot easier on my knees with that setup. Bottom line going to be that with bad luck you can screw up a knee no matter what you're on though...

[Big E]

The only problem I see with touring boots is that you should NOT be using them with regular alpine bindings because of the rubber sole. They don't release right. I just had a friend think he blew his knee because he cartwheeled down the mountain and skis never released and he's using that combo, which his shop warned him against. If you do use AT boots, you should use them with AT bindings too.

Okay, cool, I was wondering about that, but I'm a total touring JONG.

Only 2 replies, though ?!?!?! Hell, I can think of at least 6 people on here that just had surgery w/in the last month or are awaiting it, and we've all sorta lost track of how many of us have torn it at some point.

[altagirl]

Okay, cool, I was wondering about that, but I'm a total touring JONG.

Here's the old AT Boot/Alpine binding test results and ensuing debate.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5507&page=1&pp=25

I know some people use them fine, but some people also crank their bindings so they'll almost never release and are fine with that too. I just wouldn't recommend that combo if you're concerned with safety/releaseability/etc.

[daveg]

I'm riding with a full rupture ACL+MCL right knee, and a grade 2-3 ACL+MCL left. Neither have any major cartilage damage and neither have been repaired. Here's my 2cents

1) I wear proper rigid ACL specific braces on both legs, and with those things cinched down I'm good to go, probably stronger than pre-injury. They allow a little movement in the joint, but the idea is not so much movement that you load up the intact ligamnents and blow the whole joint apart

2) While I think that strong legs = strong knees, one thing to consider is how 'fast' your muscles are, especially in the tiny fast twitch stuff going on right around the joint. I had a really good physiotherapist that explained how these muscles 'sense' the position of the joint and tense up when things are getting out of line. The best way to (re)train these muscles is with a 'wobble board', like a round piece of plywood half a ball in the centre. You stand on the board and it rests on the ball on the floor. Pretty 'tippy' thing, but you should be able to balance on it indefinitely while doing squats and stuff. Then you get someone to try to push you off of it by giving you quick shoves. Once you're good at that, do it all with your eyes shut.

The only time I ever have trouble is slow speed falls, like if you get bogged down on a traverse or a straightline on the flats in deep snow. Beware of these situations and always be ready to have stiff legs and keep them underneath you. I think you're less likely to re-injure when you're really given'er than when you're going slow.

Oh ya, about your originl question regarding equipment: use whatever you want, I say, because none of it is really good for your knees, and I think knowing how to fall is more important than what gear you're falling off of.

Good luck with it!

DG

[LaramieSkiBum]

I agree ! Knowing how to fall is the key and the wobble board really helped alot during my therapy. When I'm screwing around at low speeds, there is usually not enough force for me to release out of the binding - as opposed to a high speed fall where I come out when I need too. Sort of catch 22 about bindings - need the high DIN to handle the forces of high impact bumps and jumps, but it makes it very very unlikely for slow speed releases.

I had an awesome custom brace made that allowed me to play ball less than 4 months after surgery. My brother, a soon to be U of Wyo football lineman, is also looking at custom braces for his knees. Not because he has weak knees, the doc's actually say he has effectivly two ACLs in both knees!!. He needs them because recently people have purposly tried to take him out at the knees. When I go home for X-mas break I will give you the name of the company that does these braces. They are very expensive ($500-$1000) if i remember right, and require a trained person to get the fitting measurments, but well worth it.

[scoober]

Okay, cool, I was wondering about that, but I'm a total touring JONG.

Only 2 replies, though ?!?!?! Hell, I can think of at least 6 people on here that just had surgery w/in the last month or are awaiting it, and we've all sorta lost track of how many of us have torn it at some point.

I don't know why I just saw this post today... seeing as how I have been thinking about the exact same thing.

My "big" skis are 190 yellow lawnchairs. I think I should still be able to push them around easy enough. But, once they die I will go shorter and fatter, something with 90-95 waist range in a 178-185ish length. My "everyday" 180 candides I have no worries about whatsover.

As for bindings I blew my knee on Look P14s set at 7 or so (6', 185) so go figure. Elasticity, elaschmicity.

Getting back out there and starting to charge again in general is going to be a big psychological thing for me... but that is a whole 'nother thread altogether.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

All I know is that I'm not changing a thing with my ski setup choices post-op....hell, I got surgery on the internal equipment so that I could ski the same way I always used to. So it doesn't make sense to me to compromise my external equipment. I'm attacking rehab with this thought/goal in my head.

(my opinion might be biased however in that I didn't injure myself while skiing).

[Arnold Babar]

Just saw this. I'm with Tyrone on this, but doesn't Line have a new binding set up that is supposed to be acl friendly. I think it is designed to guard against backward twisting falls or something. AG, I never thought that teles would be more acl friendly, but now that you mention it...hmmmm mebe I'll get me a new tele set up and focus on that side of the sport.

[Big E]

All I know is that I'm not changing a thing with my ski setup choices post-op....hell, I got surgery on the internal equipment so that I could ski the same way I always used to. So it doesn't make sense to me to compromise my external equipment. I'm attacking rehab with this thought/goal in my head.

(my opinion might be biased however in that I didn't injure myself while skiing).

Yeah, I here you on that, but I'm looking at it slightly different. Lessee, how to explain. Rather than skiing, let's consider auto racing (club level). Suppose you've done some track days, enjoyed them, learned a lot, etc., but did them in your old Acme POS GT. It totally trashed the car, though, and now the Acme is just sitting in your driveway smoldering. So you need a new car.

Now, you can afford (hypothetically of course) a brand new Porsche 911 GT3, and of course it would be a helluva lot of fun. But, let's face it, you're not a pro driver or even close, and you will never come anywhere close to driving that car at 9/10ths of its potential. And since it doesn't have any "big brother" features, you might just wreck it (and you) if you're not careful. You could also pick up, say, a Boxster instead. It has less flash, and you're not going to draw too many stares in the lift line - I mean stop light - but even with that you'll never get to the point where you can truly drive the car at its maximum.

This seemed like a much shorter analogy before I started it.

I guess my point is that even if I drop down to a carefully-chosen, say, 180 (currently have a 185 XXX and 192 Stormrider), it is unlikely at this point that I'll progress so far that the ski ends up holding limiting my performance/abilities. And if by going to a 180 I reduce my chances of blowing another ACL, then that's a no-brainer for me.

But without a doubt, this depends very much on ability, terrain, competing, etc.

[altagirl]

I think the more important thing to change is your attitude over your skis. Like if you have a tendency to want to ski one more run when your body is tired, etc. You need to learn to listen to your body more than you listen to your ego.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Yeah, I here you on that, but I'm looking at it slightly different. Lessee, how to explain. Rather than skiing, let's consider auto racing (club level). Suppose you've done some track days, enjoyed them, learned a lot, etc., but did them in your old Acme POS GT. It totally trashed the car, though, and now the Acme is just sitting in your driveway smoldering. So you need a new car.

Now, you can afford (hypothetically of course) a brand new Porsche 911 GT3, and of course it would be a helluva lot of fun. But, let's face it, you're not a pro driver or even close, and you will never come anywhere close to driving that car at 9/10ths of its potential. And since it doesn't have any "big brother" features, you might just wreck it (and you) if you're not careful. You could also pick up, say, a Boxster instead. It has less flash, and you're not going to draw too many stares in the lift line - I mean stop light - but even with that you'll never get to the point where you can truly drive the car at its maximum.

This seemed like a much shorter analogy before I started it.
.

Get the 911! Get the 911! Just think of all the chicks you'll get as you cruise through the mall parking lot!

[Big E]

I think the more important thing to change is your attitude over your skis. Like if you have a tendency to want to ski one more run when your body is tired, etc.

Agree 100%.

[Arnold Babar]

Get the 911! Get the 911! Just think of all the chicks you'll get as you cruise through the mall parking lot!
Agree 100%. It's all about the chicks :biggrin:

[scoober]

Let's be realistic here for a second...



... most "chicks" would not be able to tell the difference between a Boxster or GT3. :D

[seldon]

Let's be realistic here for a second...



... most "chicks" would not be able to tell the difference between a Boxster or GT3. :D

Someone's hanging out with the wrong group of girls :D.

[altagirl]

Someone's hanging out with the wrong group of girls :D.

But if you're with a girl who's picky about which model of porsche you own, that would probably be an even worse group of girls.

[Snow Ranger]

Ok go ahead and JONG me for asking this. I am certainly not an expert when it comes to ski sizing. Why would the size of ski matter when sustaining an ACL tear? (5'11, 185) I blew out my ACL on 190 Gotamas, Rossi Axial Race 14 bindings set at 8. And now you guys have planted a small seed of doubt, if I had bought the 183's would I still be skiing?
I was skiing really slowly when it happened, due to my lack of speed my left ski was not floating it was trapped under about 30 inches of snow and as I fell backwards my ACL popped. I don't think it would have mattered if my skis where 10 cm shorter.

[Big E]

Well, since torque is equal to Force x Distance, obviously increasing the distance (ie, longer skis) will increase the torque on your knee. Of course, it's far from being that simple, but that's one aspect to it.

Another thing, which will depend a lot on the skier, is that maybe a shorter ski will require a little less work, so you'll be less tired, or maybe less likely to get thrown in the backseat, which would both be good for your ACLs.

My $.02 worth.

[seldon]

But if you're with a girl who's picky about which model of porsche you own, that would probably be an even worse group of girls.

Indeed. That would just be kinda scary.

Somehow my past girlfriends never found it attractive when a nice car drove by and I stopped all conversation and started to drool. :confused: I'm not sure why though.

[GT40]

For me it's the snow, more than the ski. I've twisted my knees twice. Both times I was deep, in heavy wet snow. So now I avoid that snow condition, or I ski a very large board (10EX 199), so I stay on the surface.

For all you ACLers out there, I hope you're healing fast. It sounds like you are from these threads. :cool:

[Cornholio]

^^ All this from a guy who ownes what is perhaps the single coolest car ever made.

I don't know what that proves, but I'd listen to him.

[the_eleven]

THE best ski for those with a compromised ACL, IMHO, has to be the.....

Spatula.

Something about the way it demands to be ridden (centered), and the fact that you are mostly on top of the snow and not dealing with pulling on your skis when they are in thick snow or crud, makes me think that this is the ski for those with compromised knees.

Tore my ACL on a pair of 194 Bigs, Pivot set at 7.5, thick spring snow at Kirkweed, no pain, no swelling. Just the dreaded pop.

Now on Spats, and loving life again.

[Big E]

THE best ski for those with a compromised ACL, IMHO, has to be the.....

Spatula.

Something about the way it demands to be ridden (centered), and the fact that you are mostly on top of the snow and not dealing with pulling on your skis when they are in thick snow or crud, makes me think that this is the ski for those with compromised knees.

Tore my ACL on a pair of 194 Bigs, Pivot set at 7.5, thick spring snow at Kirkweed, no pain, no swelling. Just the dreaded pop.

Now on Spats, and loving life again.
You know, I never really thought about Spats just because they're a pow/soft-snow only ski (well, that and I live in MD), but when I think about how they're shaped and keeps the tips out of the snow, like you said preventing you from tyring to wrestle the tip out from underneath the snow - putting the ACL at risk - this sounds like a damn good idea.

I might have to think harder about this. Thanks for planting that seed...

[Snow Ranger]

Now on Spats, and loving life again.
I just sold my Gots and when I find a good enough deal on some spats I'm buying them. Please let next year be as good as this year.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

THE best ski for those with a compromised ACL, IMHO, has to be the.....

Spatula.

Something about the way it demands to be ridden (centered), and the fact that you are mostly on top of the snow and not dealing with pulling on your skis when they are in thick snow or crud, makes me think that this is the ski for those with compromised knees.

Tore my ACL on a pair of 194 Bigs, Pivot set at 7.5, thick spring snow at Kirkweed, no pain, no swelling. Just the dreaded pop.

Now on Spats, and loving life again.


hmmm...yesss...interesting. never thought of that either....thanks.

[the_eleven]

Tyrone, you should get yourself a pair of Spats as a reward for having to endure rehab while your bros are skiing pow.....

Seriously, no knee strain with these pups. The muscles that you use to ski the Spat seem to hold your knee together rather than tear it apart. Hard to describe, but my knees are never sore after skiing these, even after a bunch of runs through cut-up crud.

[Spats]

What makes your knees hurt is trying to turn while leaned back. This is most common in heavy snow: you lean back to avoid catching a tip and falling forward, but you're going too slow to turn easily, so you try to muscle the skis around, and your knees get torqued. So you want to be easy on your knees? Get out of the backseat.

The first step is, obviously, to improve your balance and strength. But if you want to spend money or need new skis anyway, there are several solutions. Wider skis will float higher and turn more easily. Softer skis are less prone to tip dive and easier to balance on. People seem to have this attitude that Real Men Ride Stiffer Skis, but in order to protect your knees, you should be riding the *softest* ski that is still stable for you. Powho and I have both straightlined the Cirque (Snowbird) on 188 Beast 92s -- you don't need a Stockli SS to go fast.

(Torsional stiffness is much more important to stability than longitudinal stiffness, but that's a different rant.)

Spatulas are a special case: instead of having soft flex, they just point the tip and tail upwards, so the ski is effectively already flexed. They are indeed the easiest skis on knees. In fact, they're the easiest skis, period. I can finish a bell-to-bell day on Spatulas and still want more.

[Spats]

Here's what I do sometimes to learn better balance. You know those days when there's no fresh and you're just messing around?

Try skiing with your boots unbuckled. Do groomers first.

If you're feeling frisky, try crud.

Then try moguls.

Your balance will improve dramatically in short order.

[Big E]

Here's what I do sometimes to learn better balance. You know those days when there's no fresh and you're just messing around?

Try skiing with your boots unbuckled. Do groomers first.

If you're feeling frisky, try crud.

Then try moguls.

Your balance will improve dramatically in short order.

Excellent drills, done them many times. In the last few years, I've become much more conscious of my centering over the skis, partially because I know at one point I spent much too much time in the back seat. I also like to sideslip on a moderately steep groomer and try to avoid using the edge entirely, which also helps you get a feel for being centered over the skis (fwd or back and the skis aren't parallel to the hill anymore).

Anyway, back to the gear talk, I'm really very interested now in the Spatulas. Everyone seems to rave about them anyway, and if they're that good AND they're knee-friendly, I'm not sure what's not to like.

[Snow Ranger]

I would really like to try some spats before buying but I can not ski until next season. If I try them and like them I wonder what the chances are of actually finding some new ones next season?

[Big E]

I would really like to try some spats before buying but I can not ski until next season. If I try them and like them I wonder what the chances are of actually finding some new ones next season?

This doesn't answer your question, but it seems like if you skied 'em for a week or so and decided you hated them (which, near as I can tell, has never happened) you could unload them real easy.

[Snow Ranger]

Well, I met up with skideeppow on Friday and now own a pair of Spatula's. I am so excited to use them but am not cleared to ski yet. The dumpage in Utah continuous damn its becoming so torturous. I am not going to mount them until summer just to make sure I don't do something stupid.

[Kellie]

I saw this post a bit late . . .

Part of me wonders if my 180 Explosivs are too much ski for me - I was on 'em for the tear, and can't help but wonder if the 178 B3's would have done the same thing. The Explosivs are fun, but I wonder if they're worth it . . .

[basom]

I saw this post a bit late . . .

Part of me wonders if my 180 Explosivs are too much ski for me - I was on 'em for the tear, and can't help but wonder if the 178 B3's would have done the same thing. The Explosivs are fun, but I wonder if they're worth it . . .

the b3's would have done the same thing kellie.

comming back for me it was way more about what the snow was like that i was skiing on more than what set up i was on. i've had days on my pistols that i felt would be the most acl friendly of my skis, that left my shit throbbing. but have had amazing days on my big daddy's and explosives and my FF9.1's which are stiffer than my explosives, all of which left me feeling good and ready to go at it again the next day.
the one thing though about skiing the stiff skis again, i had to ramp up to feel confident at speed again, but once i had my confidence back i felt just as good if not better on my stiffer set ups.
i do feel like in set up, chunder snow my spatulas have provided (while taxing in a certain heavy way)with the most knee friendly skiing. but i dont suggest skiing in set up, heavy, chunder mank on a new acl. it was those types of condishions that i felt the most at risk, especially in tight situations that require super fast turning.

i know you will prolly never set foot in a resort again though, so i'm guessing you'll be on smooth snow no matter what set up you are skiing http://www.tetongravity.com/ubb/icons/icon6.gif

so.. dont sell your skis, at least untill you have recovered and are sure you dont want them

[truth]

I blew mine mid turn on a pair of 185 B3's with rossi binders skiing realy manky variable crusty pow. I was skiing in a rock solid keep it under control mode making short radius turns through the choke of a chute. The downhill ski hooked something and shot back uphill, the ACL blew and I fell. I partially tore it while coming to a mellow but slightly off balance stop on a serious bushwack of a traverse 2 years prior when our trusted guide got us lost on the way back to the cat. That was literally from a crawl to a stop but leaning back just to the point that I felt it tear. I don't believe either could have been prevented by changing gear. I also believe that when charging full bore you are far safer than when skiing at 70%.