Carbon road bike frame stiffness

[QuikR12]

sprocket rocket question -- cross post:
I'm a road bike JONG, will be my first bike, but I get in the mode of doing extensive research and wanting the best, so I'd like to know how much of a difference there will be in the frame stiffness between the different levels of a certain make/model.

I've been looking at the Specialized Tarmac, but wondering how much stiffness will differ between the Comp, and say, the Pro or Expert models. How much will performance suffer by stiffness variations???

I'm about 2bills, will be climbing a lot of hills, and doing most everything else pretty aggressively.

What other solid frames might I look out for? I also have interest in a Cannondale System-6.

any beta is appreciated.

[roadgap]

Tarmac owner here. Great bike, you really can't go wrong with it. Very versatile for just riding around or racing. I've done 150 mile rides and raced 30 minute crits on mine and it's performed well in both areas.

I believe that if you're looking at this year's models, the Expert and Pro framesets are basically the same. Specialized rates their carbon frames on a scale - the 2010 Expert/Pro frameset is '10r' which is equivalent to the carbon used in last year's SL2.

The Comp is 8r - basically the same as the 08 expert which I rode for a couple years. Still a great frame. I believe the new comp is likely a bit stiffer than the 08 expert just due to design advances. I found I could flex the expert frame in an all-out sprint, but I remember when I first got on it, before I was really racing a lot, it seemed very stiff. At 200 you would probably flex it a bit more than I did.

I think the Expert is probably the sweet spot in this year's lineup. There are stiffer bikes out there but it's a nice compromise between performance and comfort.

[emr]

I love how its your first bike, you call your self a JONG, yet you already know that you do everything aggressively. I love this place.........


In regards to carbon, the lay ups and materials change within companies and between companies (hence the reason for your question)... fucking confusing to me. I test rode a bunch of bikes and ended up with a TI from serrota. I set out to get full carbon because my previous bike was an AL/carbon cannondale which got toasted from my accident. My brain really wanted a carbon frame but my body dug the TI. Good luck... My thoughts are that everything can sound good on paper but the real test is how it rides and fits your size. Test ride some bikes.

[JoeStrummer]

Buy a Crumpton.

[XtrPickels]

Buy a Crumpton.

Nice one for sale on either velocipede or serotta.

[axebiker]

I have a Cervelo Soloist Carbon. It's amazing. Massive bottom bracket, climbs like a monkey.

[QuikR12]

I love how its your first bike, you call your self a JONG, yet you already know that you do everything aggressively. I love this place.........



Shall I rephrase and say I have aggressive intentions with this bike? I'm aggressive by nature, and if I shell out nearly 2g's I'm sure as hell going to have a lot of fun on it, and fun really only happens when aggressive happens.


I have a Cervelo Soloist Carbon. It's amazing. Massive bottom bracket, climbs like a monkey.

What's the specs of your BB/crankset? What are the ideal crank specs for a climber vs flat or sprinter?

Thanks for the beta everyone. Going on a test ride this afternoon...

[hutash]

Buy a Colango and be done with it. Still the best geometry out there.

[QuikR12]

I have a Cervelo Soloist Carbon. It's amazing. Massive bottom bracket, climbs like a monkey.

Cervelo Soloist looks sweet, even the aluminum S1. Seriously making me consider going alloy and still over my budget :eek:

[hutash]

Cervelo Soloist looks sweet, even the aluminum S1. Seriously making me consider going alloy and still over my budget :eek:

Well, if you are on a budget forget about getting anything good;)

Aluminum with carbon seat (+/- chain) stays is the best bang for the budget buck. Cheap carbon is exactly that. People spend too much money on frames, then components and end up with crappy wheels. Good wheels should be your first concern, then components, and last frame, especially if you are on a tight budget. If not Campy wheels (euros/shamals) and record components with CF frame (still, preferably Colnago, but I am partial to Italian frames.) There is a reason Sophia Loren came from Italia.

[axebiker]

Campy is great as long as you have a local shop that deals it. If not, stay away. I had a Campy bike a while back -- I did a tri, and had a wheel problem, and with the time constraints, the only answer was to rent/borrow a wheel. The local shop (kind of a rural area) had a ton a Shimano stuff that would've "got me by", but no Campy. It was teh suckz.

[axebiker]

What's the specs of your BB/crankset? What are the ideal crank specs for a climber vs flat or sprinter?

I was talking in terms of the frame's bottom bracket, but the crankset is an FSA SL-K with a stock BB.

[QuikR12]

talking wheels, what's the best value out there? I might piece my own bike together, and have been looking at the Mavic Aksium Race's or the Fulcrum racing 5's to get me started if I do.

Also likely going w/ the shimano route, since i'm already collecting some components, but would look at SRAM if it was forced on me.

[axebiker]

Aksium Races SUCK. Just sold a pair with a couple hundred miles on them. Noodles. I'm about 180#, and not a power rider, and I was flexing the snot out of them.

I'm partial to Easton Vista/EA50 as a good budget wheelset. The Circuit/EA70 ain't bad either - that's been my main wheelset for the past 5 years.

I've heard good things about Fulcrum, but no personal experience.

SRAM rocks.

[QuikR12]

Thanks Axe, I'll avoid the aksiums Crap

[huckbucket]

Have a teammate that migrated from a Colnago C40 to a Super 6 and is in love with the c-dale. Have another teammate who went form a carbon soloist to the Super 6 and will never go back. I'm a die hard Caad9 fan. Go with C-dale.

As far as wheels go, pick up some Mavic Open Pro's with ultegra (or chorus) hubs and be done with it. 28 spoke. Bomber, yet light enough to race on if desired.

[roadgap]

talking wheels, what's the best value out there? I might piece my own bike together, and have been looking at the Mavic Aksium Race's or the Fulcrum racing 5's to get me started if I do.

Also likely going w/ the shimano route, since i'm already collecting some components, but would look at SRAM if it was forced on me.

Take a look at Easton - better value than Mavic or Fulcrum (campy) IMO.

[weasel1]

DT Swiss 1.2....lighter than open pro/ult or da, strong and nice. Not terribly expensive, either.

[XtrPickels]

What size of frame are you looking at and where are you.

[QuikR12]

What size of frame are you looking at and where are you.

I'm need about a 56-57cm top tube. Sacramento/Tahoe area.

Anybody know good buying sources besides c-list or egay?

[PuderLuder]

Consider one of these (http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?products_id=13613). From my understanding, this company is like a clearing house for Chinese frame builders. If you are sharp, you will recognize every frame they sell as an un-badged version of a popular well known brand. The only difference between these bikes, and your high-end cervelos/ specialized/ etc. is that these companies do not own the carbon molds and therefore re-branding like this can happen at dramatic reductions in costs.

If anyone replies to this that these are cheap Chinese carbon frames, they are clueless. The Chinese ARE the experts in carbon fabrication and where all but your most boutique frames are made.

I just ordered a branded version of this frame. It cost me a few hundred more but I really liked the paint job this company puts on it. They have been slow and the ship date has slipped so I am seriously considering canceling my order and going with one of these.

FYI: I used to race a bike for a living and would not ride a P.O.S. frame. At the same time, I recognize what is important in a frame and it is not a trendy name or the fact some dopped up pro has won the TdF 7 times on it. I do agree with a previous poster about the components being the most important- though I might have to put them a close second to a properly fitting frame (one with a geometry that allows your best position).

PL

[PuderLuder]

As far as wheels go, pick up some Mavic Open Pro's with ultegra (or chorus) hubs and be done with it. 28 spoke. Bomber, yet light enough to race on if desired.

^^^ I just read this and agree 100%. I have dura ace hubs laced to some 32hole open pros 3x. They are by no means a light or fast wheelset, but they are bomber. Where I live I encounter many road conditions in the mountains, often having to finish the last few km of a climb (or first few of a descent) on a dirt road. These things are bomb proof and I never have to worry about them. I don't race anymore, but when I did I always trained on a similar wheel and had a light set of tubulars for racing (I would never race on clinchers). If you need to train on deep dish carbons or something you are just a big idiot.

PL

[wcf3]

I do agree with a previous poster about the components being the most important- though I might have to put them a close second to a properly fitting frame (one with a geometry that allows your best position).





I would generally agree with this, but if you haven't done a lot of road riding in the past, you will probably not even know what a good fit for you is until you've done a fair amount of riding. As such, it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend much money on a frame, since no matter what you start with, odds are it won't be the best fit in the long run. (After you've done a bunch of riding, you gain strength and get more accustomed to the the road riding position and the requirements for an ideal fit change).

Imho, if you are just getting going, about the only thing worth spending much money on are wheels, which are easy to transfer around.

[roadgap]

I would generally agree with this, but if you haven't done a lot of road riding in the past, you will probably not even know what a good fit for you is until you've done a fair amount of riding. As such, it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend much money on a frame, since no matter what you start with, odds are it won't be the best fit in the long run.

This. Also, if you're between frame sizes, either go smaller or find a better fitting brand. Don't go bigger.

[jmars]

Pedal Force frames are great and since you seem to be on a budget it would be a solid compromise interms of what to spend on parts vs the frame.

As others have said.....get fitted first then start looking.

[huckbucket]

The fascination with carbon is born of marketing. Cannondale build an extremely good alu frame that is every bit as comfy as carbon, is stiff enough to win the Giro d' Italia if that's your pleasure, and won't set you back a shit ton. Alu from other manufacturers can be too stiff though.

[PuderLuder]

This. Also, if you're between frame sizes, either go smaller or find a better fitting brand. Don't go bigger.

^^^yeah, definitely this.

[roadgap]

The fascination with carbon is born of marketing. Cannondale build an extremely good alu frame that is every bit as comfy as carbon, is stiff enough to win the Giro d' Italia if that's your pleasure, and won't set you back a shit ton. Alu from other manufacturers can be too stiff though.

I have a CAAD9 as a crit bike and a Tarmac as an 'everyday' bike. The Tarmac is definitely more comfortable than the CAAD9 and basically as stiff. No lighter tho.

That said the cannondale is an amazing bike. Fast as hell.

[QuikR12]

As others have said.....get fitted first then start looking.

I've test road several frames so far, taken my fitting measurements and have a handy chart w/ the results so I at least have a pretty accurate idea of what frame size I need. Now what "fits'' is a whole seperate issue.

[hutash]

I really like my Camy Euros wheels. I have had record C hubs laced to many different rims, but the euros are strong lighter stiffer and never need trueing. You can now get them so they will take a clincher or tubulars.

[Yanos]

Consider one of these (http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?products_id=13613). From my understanding, this company is like a clearing house for Chinese frame builders. If you are sharp, you will recognize every frame they sell as an un-badged version of a popular well known brand. The only difference between these bikes, and your high-end cervelos/ specialized/ etc. is that these companies do not own the carbon molds and therefore re-branding like this can happen at dramatic reductions in costs.

If anyone replies to this that these are cheap Chinese carbon frames, they are clueless. The Chinese ARE the experts in carbon fabrication and where all but your most boutique frames are made.

I just ordered a branded version of this frame. It cost me a few hundred more but I really liked the paint job this company puts on it. They have been slow and the ship date has slipped so I am seriously considering canceling my order and going with one of these.

FYI: I used to race a bike for a living and would not ride a P.O.S. frame. At the same time, I recognize what is important in a frame and it is not a trendy name or the fact some dopped up pro has won the TdF 7 times on it. I do agree with a previous poster about the components being the most important- though I might have to put them a close second to a properly fitting frame (one with a geometry that allows your best position).

PL

I got in on one of the first groupbuys through Pedal Force. RS2 Frame cost me $350 and the SRAM Red Group $1,050. I have been very impressed with this frame. Ended up in the 15lb range full built. If your going to go this route it is worthwhile to wait for one of there groupbuys.

My wife rides a older Tarmac (2006) and it is a very comfortable ride. I couldn't say how rigid it compares with my PF frame since it it is considerably smaller. It definitely weighs a bit more though.

[WICS]

I love my Expert

Good luck

[axebiker]

As far as wheels go, pick up some Mavic Open Pro's with ultegra (or chorus) hubs and be done with it. 28 spoke. Bomber, yet light enough to race on if desired.

Awesome wheelset. Kinda the "standard issue" in quality. If you want a little more "bling", Easton is my choice, although I'd like to look into Fulcrum.

[axebiker]

The fascination with carbon is born of marketing.

I used to think that. I was never fascinated with carbon. I hated it. Not any more. My Soloist kicks ass. There isn't even another bike I think about right now - except for maybe the R3. It's awesome to ride. It's also nice to have my Salsa Pistola as a backup/easy day bike.

[QuikR12]

Consider one of these (http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?products_id=13613). If you are sharp, you will recognize every frame they sell as an un-badged version of a popular well known brand.

So, I'm not that sharp; at least when it comes to road bike frames. Though the CG1 does look like a certain Fuji, but the name escapes me. Anyway, you're saying these have the same geometry/materials/carbon lay-up as branded high-end frames? Will ya tell me what they are?!:wink:


The fascination with carbon is born of marketing.

I would really like to believe this but after a day of test rides, I must say I love the carbon touch. Today I rode the Cervelo S1 (aluminum frame), the S2 (full Carbon), the C-dale six-13 (hybrid carbon/alloy frame), and the Felt F5 (full carbon). The biggest trawback I found in the aluminum/hybrid frames was, at least by my perception, the difference in climbing efficiency.

The Cervelo's were sweet, but the S1 felt a bit sluggish or inefficient while climbing and I definitely felt the road shock, but it had a good component set-up and in the right price range ($2200) and otherwise functioned like a sleek, solid bike. Then I rode the S2 (full carbon) and could feel the difference night and day. I loved it, unfortunately it had a sticker that said it was way too much, but I knew that before hand and told the guy I had no inention of buying just really wanted to feel it out... Like Axe said, the S2 climbed like a (superlight & strong) monkey and was super stiff in the BB... Then I went on to ride a C-dale 6-13, which was a hybrid of a carbon top and down-tube, with an alloy rear triangle. This suprised me as a very good climber, decent vibration dampening and a good component set-up (Ultegra/Dura-ace). Though it's bars were wide, and it was not aero.. much at all. Next was the Felt F5, which was a really nice frame fit. Very comfortable, smooth and stiff, but had some pretty clunky wheels and a mediocre component group (105) that would make me want to get deeper $ wise into the bike.

That being said, I'm definitely not done w/ the search, and still leaning towards putting it together... to put the right pieces on the first time and stay on budget.

.
.
.

so your "Just buy a Colnago" w/ a full da kit and "be done with it" comments are always welcome, but still a fantasy

maybe when I become a famous internet ski vet helping sick animal's owners, I can afford that. :fmicon:

[Viva]

So go ahead and buy the frame of your dreams and throw together a gruppo that works for you at a price that makes your dick hard.

Dig it, I have 9-spd Chorus shifters and cassette, Mavic brakes, Stronglight cranks, Cane Creek headset (Chris King is so fucking overrated) and had a local wheel builder put together a wheel set using American Classics hubs, Swiss DT spokes and Velocity rims.

I love my bike.

[QuikR12]

^ Nice Viva,

solid advice.

I like hard-ons, and tho i'm on a budget, I still don't want a dirty whore for a bike. I want the fastest, best bike I can afford to put together in my price range, which seems to get more ambitious the more I look.

[axebiker]

I love the idea of putting parts rides together, but will say that in my experience, I have always come out better buying a complete bike. It probably has a little to do with my level of patience or total lack thereof.

Just be careful. It can be awesome, or it can be a real PITA.

[PuderLuder]

So, I'm not that sharp; at least when it comes to road bike frames. Though the CG1 does look like a certain Fuji, but the name escapes me. Anyway, you're saying these have the same geometry/materials/carbon lay-up as branded high-end frames? Will ya tell me what they are?!:wink:

These frames are made in the same factory as BH, Willier and Teschner.

[roadgap]

Next was the Felt F5, which was a really nice frame fit. Very comfortable, smooth and stiff, but had some pretty clunky wheels and a mediocre component group (105) that would make me want to get deeper $ wise into the bike.

Always fun to bling up your bike, but 105 is absolutely good enough to ride (and race).

[PuderLuder]

^^^I'd agree with that for the most part. My opinion of components groups is that they all (dura ace to 105) work great, and about the same, out of the box. The difference is how long they continue to work at the level. When I was racing 80-100x/year, I would never have the same parts on my bike at the end of the season that I had started out with- since something would always break, etc... This is with Dura Ace and Record both. Now that I don't race, and maybe ride 3-4x/week when the weather is nice, the Dura Ace group I put on my bike new ~5years ago is still pretty much perfect, but I doubt 105 would be.

PL

[roadgap]

Absolutely agree - on my various bikes I've got 105, Ultegra, DA, and SRAM Rival/Force. They all work great. The 105 components just require a bit more TLC and aren't as 'snappy' as the DA components.

Dura-Ace is really nice stuff. If you can justify the cost it's certainly worth it. But if you're just looking to ride and don't want to be limited by your equipment 105 is absolutely enough as well.

[hutash]

so your "Just buy a Colnago" w/ a full da kit and "be done with it" comments are always welcome, but still a fantasy

maybe when I become a famous internet ski vet helping sick animal's owners, I can afford that. :fmicon:

I'm still waiting for the checks to come in so I can do the same;)

The best bike I have ever ridden is my Colnago Master Light (steel), too bad it is boat anchor heavy, although a carbon fork helped. It is an amazing ride and can descend like nothing else I have been on. I am currently on a boutique frame from an ex-Colnago builder, but I am not wild about Al frames, so will soon go to CF by the same builder. It is Colnago geometry with less of a price tag. My Campy groupo and wheels will migrate to the new frame as well.

[QuikR12]

I'm still waiting for the checks to come in so I can do the same;)

The best bike I have ever ridden is my Colnago Master Light (steel), too bad it is boat anchor heavy, although a carbon fork helped. It is an amazing ride and can descend like nothing else I have been on.

Don't get me wrong, the Colnago's are super sweet, especially that CX-1 w/ the Electric DA group on it. One slick set-up. I swear it shifts via telekenesis.

[XtrPickels]

i may be able to be persuaded to sell my six13 frame/fork/headset. Its a 56.

[QuikR12]

i may be able to be persuaded to sell my six13 frame/fork/headset. Its a 56.

It's not the one w/ the uber ghey graphix is it (all white w/ some orange fefe swirly shit on it)? I actually did like that ride though, so if you want, PM me what you're looking to get. The 56 is the right size in that bike for me.

[Oarhead]

AS a heavier dude I echo what others have said about building wheels. I built my bike from the frame up (C-dale supersix team) and put some 3x handbuilt wheels on it. THe hubs are superior and since you are a big guy you need strength, not lightweight. I have not had to do major work on them and the weight difference really is not that bad. I built them myself and they are bombproof. Love'em.

Look at what all of the pros ride for the classics on cobble: 3x lacing on medium depth rims (yes, I realize that the newer generation of carbon tubulars are being used more and more but those cost more than a lot of bikes). Ambrosio, open pro rims, record/DA hubs, butted spokes and you are off to the races.

[QuikR12]

Good info^, anybody know what the significant changes from the Ultegra 6600 to Ult 6700 hubs were? I found some pretty cheap ($250) Open pro's laced w/ DT Swiss spokes on Ult 6600 hubs. Sound like a solid wheel, good deal?

[hutash]

If you aren't, sign up for feeds from Bonktown.com (SAC for road bikes). They have some good frame deals pop up pretty regularly. I just saw a DeRosa.

[BigKuba]

If you aren't, sign up for feeds from Bonktown.com (SAC for road bikes). They have some good frame deals pop up pretty regularly. I just saw a DeRosa.

Such as right now, for the next 15 min. Assuming I have a semblance of a clue, this looks like a pretty fantastic deal

...aaaand it's gone.

Really wish I knew more about this stuff to feel confident pulling the trigger, as I'm looking for a taller than usual frame (long legs, short torso) and this one appeared to fit the bill on paper.

[QuikR12]

Awesome... i see those occassionally, of course when I'm not bike shopping. I always miss them when I am. I feel pretty stupid though, cause last night I watched a new 2009 Scott CR1 Pro Frameset go on ebay @ $760... Shoulda, coulda, woulda..

Edit: finally I catch one...
http://stk.tetongravity.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=81350&stc=1&d=1281723581
of course not in my size...

[roadgap]

Good info^, anybody know what the significant changes from the Ultegra 6600 to Ult 6700 hubs were? I found some pretty cheap ($250) Open pro's laced w/ DT Swiss spokes on Ult 6600 hubs. Sound like a solid wheel, good deal?

$250 for the set? Good deal.

[QuikR12]

Another question... A friend of the family is selling an older (2005ish) Trek 5200 frameset for super cheap, which I believe is full monocoque carbon and uber light. Anyone have any experience w/ this generation of 5200? I'm not super stoked on the Trek, or the fact that "Lance Armstrong won the TDF on this bike" either. Just thinking it might be a cheap bike to build out for my first.

But shouldn't losing your road bike virginity go to something uber sexy??

[hutash]

Naw, a cheap whore will teach you a lot more then some uber sexy super model.

Getting the right size is most important, as your road riding improves you will end up changing a lot of things, and finding that spending more for parts and frames will be an improvement.

Just get something decent, start riding, hook up with some group rides to really learn what road biking is all about, swap bikes (or wives) occasionally to see what you like and dislike, then when you have the money and the expertise get the bike of your dreams. Sell the bike you originally built out, or keep it as a commuter/rainy day beater.


edit to add:

I just remember a saying from my Dutch friends (the Dutch having great sayings for everything,)...You should learn to ride on an old bike.

Which of course means you should learn to fuck from an older experienced woman. Seems appropriate:biggrin:

[Tye 1on]

IMHO hutash has some great advice right there. I scored a hand brazed 77 trek last fall for $100. Have 3 sixty mile days, a 45, 30 and a dozen 10-15 milers in over the last couple months and am loving the motherfuckin shit out of it. Not the best climber, but way comfy. 85 in two weeks, 108 mi century in a couple months. Plan to build a bike over winter 11/12 which will be faster than fuck and take advantage of the training effect from pushing this one. YMMV.

Edit to add that the cheap whore will often be down for some pounding, much lower maintenance.

[huckbucket]

I've got a fast-ass race bike and I still always look forward to fall when I pull out the 25 lb. steel framed fixie. Comfy. mmmmmmmm. And no pressure to ride hard.

[ulty_guy]

Ok, I'll chime in here on some of my recent experiences....

I moved to Geneva about 2 years ago and got into the road biking scene with gusto (road a little bit before but the terrain etc around here is amazing). I've done pretty much every major sportive in the French Alps over the last 2 years include 2 etapes, a marmotte, le grand bo, morzine, time-megeve, etc etc and normally finish in the top 10% and for the etape was top 400. I've also done some shorter and flatter races which have been fun. Not tooting my horn, but I do ok and I'm not a super skinny leg shaver (5'10" 170 lbs).

First of all a word on fit, get a professional one, it's worth it if you're going to be riding a lot. Last thing you want is tendonitis ruining your season when you've worked really hard to get in shape for. A good fit is absolutely the most important part of enjoying riding.

When I was buying my first expensive road bike I decided that weight was super important as I was going to be doing tons of climbing. I went for a Canyon ultimate slx (carbon monocoque, Omega-Lotto team bike) with Chorus and Mavic Elites and even got some Reynolds Carbon tubulars for the race days. It's a great bike, stiff and efficient and only weighs 7kg with race wheels. The problems was that when I rode it over 3 hours or so I'd get aches and pains pretty much everywhere. Not terrible, but definitely not fun. Now most reviews don't even rate this as an uncomfortable machine.

I've yet to test ride a Monocoque carbon bike that handles bigger 'hits' well which is the fault I find with this kind of bike. A bit of road buzz really doesn't bother me at all (you can just put on 700x25 and ride them at 7 bar and most of that goes away), it's the big hits that hurt. I haven't ridden lugged carbon and I've heard that they do soak up big hits better. I'd definitely be interested in a Look 585 etc that you can find for a really great bargain right now as they're going to discontinue it.

In the meantime I picked up a cheap Cyfac aluminum frame (Nerv) on ebay as a training bike and the fit is perfect for me. All built up with Centaur and Mavic Elites (no weight weenies parts) it's about 8.7 kgs. Cyfac is legendary for building smooth riding bikes and even though this was supposed to be uncomfortable alu it's actually the most comfy bike I've ever had including a Pinarello steel bike. I've ended up using this bike for all the sportives I've done and I feel much fresher in the second half of the events and I can even crack a nice small when I cruise past dudes on $10k bikes with my $1k home build.

For every 1.6kg of extra bike weight on a 8% climb of an hour, you only go about 1 minute slower. That's REALLY not a lot. If you have a full water bottle, that's almost the same. Also if you're doing non supported rides you're probably carrying that much in food and other tools etc. Also, frame weight is static and even a good steel frame is only about .5-.7kgs heavier than a carbon one. All the rest of the weight is your parts. On stiffness, you can build alu or steel almost a stiff as carbon and with better ride characteristics.

My point is that unless you're racing shorter events (I'll still use the Canyon for fast and furious 2 hour events) you should really look at a custom aluminum or steel ride that fits you well. Save the extra money for really nice wheels, a saddle you love and a good bike fit.

p.s. I have to say though that I'm dying to ride that new Specialized Roubaix SL-3 supposed to be amazingly comfy with great efficiency. I wonder if it will come with the Gruber motor option :D

[hutash]

^^^Which brings up the old adage...Don't worry about grams on the bike until you take pounds of the rider.

The cheapest way I can drop weight on my bike for climbing is not in an uber expensive CF frame and components, but to stop drinking beer after club rides and shed several pounds. But, I rip on the down hills with all that ballast;)

[ulty_guy]

Yeah it cracks me up when people bang on about weight unless you're a skinny a$$ 140 lb, 4% body fat climber. Yes, stiffness does matter, but there's almost always a trade off. Part of the reason that the new Roubaix SL-3 seems intriguing to me.

[QuikR12]

good info peeps, thanks. Now I've been taking what ya'll are saying to heart, and the cheap whore question still has me perplexed. See, there's the cheap whore frame down the street (the Trek), that would make a nice bike for pretty much however long I'd like to keep it. A nice bike, sorta like a nice wife: she'll ride you day in and day out, do chores, but isn't the exotic whore that will let you do anal (ok, too far w/ the analogy). She might also be a bit hefty for my taste, a 58cm when I spec out to a 56-57.

On the other hand, there's the cheap, exotic imported whore, that is 'clean and new' as well, but has the sexy exotic curves think of when we imagine a cheap whore. She does everything the trek does, maybe a little harder and faster, but I question the longevity of the relationship, and what the pimp would do say, if she got out of line and I ended up breaking her somewhere, cause i know the trek pimp will replace his bitch if she breaks. The exotic whore seems to have the same curves (geometry) as some of the supermodel bikes, but I think people would know she's a cheap whore anyway. Does it matter when I'm riding her brains out?

[QuikR12]

just pulled the trigger on a set of mavic open pros w/ ultegra 6700s on ebay from a shop in Loveland, Rocky Mountain Cyclery (anyone know of it)? I've got a good bit of my componentry, and obviously the wheelset, so I guess its time really time to pick up the frame. It's very likely that I'll go with that TREK. There was a time speeder and a carbon Opera on SAC that were near the price range, and if they come back up in the next week or so, its going to be very hard resisting.

I want to have it built pretty quickly though, and be physically ready for a local century in one month, "The Grizzly" (http://www.grizzlycentury.org/)
if anyone's heard of it.

Is it a bit overambitious to expect to be able to ride 100 miles and 10,000 ft of gain that quickly? I am in pretty top shape, feel comfortable on a road bike, and can crank out long endurance challenges w/ relative ease.

That said, I have no idea what 100 miles and 10kft on a bike is like.

[RShea]

good info peeps, thanks. Now I've been taking what ya'll are saying to heart, and the cheap whore question still has me perplexed. See, there's the cheap whore frame down the street (the Trek), that would make a nice bike for pretty much however long I'd like to keep it. A nice bike, sorta like a nice wife: she'll ride you day in and day out, do chores, but isn't the exotic whore that will let you do anal (ok, too far w/ the analogy). She might also be a bit hefty for my taste, a 58cm when I spec out to a 56-57.


Make sure the Trek 58cm will work for you- remember the do not go bigger rule if you are between sizes. If you have done the fit stuff and come in between a 56 to 57 cm frame then you should be looking at the geometry and make sure the numbers will work on the 58cm as all the fit points to you should be on a 56cm. If you can do a shorter stem, shorter crank arms, etc and come within your fit then it may be worth it. But if the 58cm may never work for you since it is 1 to 2 cm bigger than the fit numbers you are stating for your size. It is no deal if it does not fit, unless you plan on picking it up cheap and turning it for a quick profit to some other 58cm cyclist.

[Tye 1on]

1cm is roughly 7/16", it seems pretty surprising that this makes such a huge difference in fit, but I am a bikefit Jong without a doubt.

[RShea]

1cm is roughly 7/16", it seems pretty surprising that this makes such a huge difference in fit, but I am a bikefit Jong without a doubt.
But it could be 2 cm which is 7/8"- if you go with the smaller frame size. Lots of numbers to play with - reach and neck or back pain, too much pressure on the arms or wrists because of being stretched out too far, stand over height is less of an issue with new school sloped top tubes than it was in the days of straight tubes.

[roadgap]

Don't go with the 58. It's just not worth it to be on a too-big frame. Not only will you be risking back and neck pain from being too stretched out, you won't have options to get lower, and handling will suffer, especially if you end up going with a short stem to get a better reach.

[cbrpaul]

I'm not a fan of carbon fiber frames, and I wouldn't touch a used carbon fiber frame. I work with the stuff. It is extremely sensitive to storage, handling, and everything that goes with the process of making carbon fiber parts. The biggest downside is you can't tell when they are failing, although periodically performing repeatable stiffness tests would be one way to do it. At best, a carbon fiber frame is a temporary solution. I like carbon forks, but they need to be replaced periodically because of inner laminate failure. Do you feel like replacing your frame periodically? Fit and geometry are the main issues. Get those sorted and go from there with steel, aluminum, or titanium. Use a carbon fork if you want to.

Looks like you've bought wheels. They are where you'll get your biggest bang for the buck from a performance standpoint. Build your own, or go to a REPUTABLE wheelbuilder.

Go at least with Ultegra if going Shimano. I'm your size. You'll appreciate it. I just upgraded to Campy Chorus, after 5 years with Ultegra. It's worth it.

[roadgap]

I'd disagree that it's a 'temporary' solution, although you're right that carbon frames are sensitive to handling etc. Carbon is very strong in some ways and very fragile in others, but the main advantage is that it's easier to get different shapes in carbon than it is in metal tubing. Some of the modern advancements like huge BB's, tapered head tubes, etc - you just won't see these in metal bikes, and they do make a difference. There's a reason that you don't see pro-level road racers on anything but carbon these days. The other big advantage to carbon is that you can get a very stiff frame that is also compliant in the right ways, and won't leave you feeling beat up after 80-100 miles in the saddle. This is a big deal if you ride a lot.

I have also never heard of anyone replacing a carbon fork for any reason other than crash damage, and I've seen high quality aluminum frames wrecked in crashes.

Most of the big bike companies have quite good warranty protection and most carbon frames are warrantied for the life of the product. I ride with several people who are on 5+ year old carbon frames that are going strong.

All that said, my crit bike is an aluminum CAAD9 - mainly because if I trash the frame it's cheap to replace. And it does have a carbon fork.

[QuikR12]

Indeed, I need to go back over my measurements and thoroughly check out the frame geo on this Trek. From the fit specs I have, I should be on a 56.7 cm top tube w/ a 120 mm stem.

This frame I'm looking at was a warranty replacement, and is new/unridden and with Trek's warranty, I'm not too worried about failure. I'm also very keen on the carbon feel from the many bikes I've test ridden. I don't plan on keeping this frame around for long before I swap it out, and since I think i can snag it for around $300, its not too much of a gamble for me if I can't get the fit dialed.

The wheels I snagged are laced to Ultegra 6700 hubs, and I have new ultegra SL derailleurs, cranks, bb, and now brakes. Need shifters, rear cassette, chain, and cables and my component group is complete-- all ultegra/SL.

[Tye 1on]

I'm not a fan of carbon fiber frames, and I wouldn't touch a used carbon fiber frame. I work with the stuff. It is extremely sensitive to storage, handling, and everything that goes with the process of making carbon fiber parts. The biggest downside is you can't tell when they are failing, although periodically performing repeatable stiffness tests would be one way to do it. At best, a carbon fiber frame is a temporary solution. I like carbon forks, but they need to be replaced periodically because of inner laminate failure. Do you feel like replacing your frame periodically? Fit and geometry are the main issues. Get those sorted and go from there with steel, aluminum, or titanium. Use a carbon fork if you want to.

Looks like you've bought wheels. They are where you'll get your biggest bang for the buck from a performance standpoint. Build your own, or go to a REPUTABLE wheelbuilder.

Go at least with Ultegra if going Shimano. I'm your size. You'll appreciate it. I just upgraded to Campy Chorus, after 5 years with Ultegra. It's worth it.

I hear ya on this denigration issue, but not sure if it always bears out in practice. I'm in the middle of buying a 12-13 year old Aegis Aro, and sent an email to the company asking about info on that vintage. Owner replied 'they were overbuilt and incredibly comfortable, we have documented old carbon bikes of ours with over 80,000 miles on them.' So i guess they can be durable too if built strong and cared for...

[ulty_guy]

Just thought I'd drop a line in to follow up on some of my prior thoughts after an outing this weekend. I think the link should work, but at any rate....

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/47648891

I decided to pull out the carbon Canyon with my Reynolds carbon wheels because the finishing time was going to be 3.5 hours or so. I rode it a little in the week leading up to it just to get used to it again.

I showed up to the first edition of a local cyclosportive event that had 2 hilly loops of around 40km with 500 meters of climbing and then a horrible 10km going up 1000 meters to top it off. Looking around at the start, this wasn't your typical cyclosportive and over half the people there were actually top amateur racers in the area. And the top guys around here (being the alps) are pretty incredibly fast. They totaly closed the roads and had support vehicles which was pretty sweet.

So for the first lap I decided that I was going to hang in there no matter what and see how it went. My max heart rate on the lap was 197! I think the highest I've hit in the last 2 years was 190. We were sprinting up climbs, flying around decents and sprinting out of every corner. In this context, I would agree that my pimpy carbon ride really did make a difference because the difference b/t holding on and not was so narrow. At absolute full bore, carbon frames do work fantastically well.

However, 90% of us don't need that 100% of the time and the other 10% need it only on occassion (I can think of 2-3 times this entire year).

[ulty_guy]

Oh and some carbon scare-mongering stories...
http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

One thing I would never ride would be carbon stems, bars, or seatposts.

[wcf3]

There are quite a few problems associated with construction of carbon bike frames. In the following link can be found a discussion of some of these issues.

http://www.calfeedesign.com/whitepaper8.htm

Insuring consistent quality and material behavior in a pure carbon frame construction is always going to be extremely difficult due to the many intricate shapes and sharp bends involved, particularly at the highest stress points on a frame (e.g. bottom bracket, headtube, wheel attachement points).

[roadgap]

The fact is, carbon is the standard. The huge majority of manufacturers offer carbon frames through all but the very bottom of their lineups - many manufacturers don't use aluminum anymore at all.

Titanium is also quickly exiting the marketplace.

Despite all the fearmongering, thousands upon thousands of people put carbon frames through the wringer season after season and the frames hold up well. Sure, sites like bustedcarbon show scary-looking images of failure, but what they don't show are all the failures of aluminum bikes, or all the carbon bikes that are crashed very hard and come out completely rideable.

Calfee in particular also prove that carbon is relatively easy to work on and easy to repair.

The carbon cat's out of the bag. If you want to ride a modern high-end frame, you're either riding carbon or limiting yourself to a very narrow corner of the market.

I like my caad9 but my tarmac pro is on another level. And no, I'm not afraid of it spontaneously exploderizing.

[ulty_guy]

I was only posting the busted carbon link cause I find it funny that there's still some serious fear-mongering out there that is unjustified. You'll notice on the link that it's sponsored by a Ti frame manufacturer.

I agree that carbon is well accepted and made in most cases these days, my only point (see stuff further up) was that it's not the be all end all and that you can still get an extremely good bike made of Alu/steel/etc. that will be great for almost everyone. Heck, Phillipe Gilbert has been on an aluminum Canyon for the last couple of years and that doesn't seem to have slowed him down one bit (although he's just switched to their new carbon aero-road). And yes, I have a man crush on Gilbert, the dude wins in style ;)

[ulty_guy]

And if someone does want a good, reliable carbon frame, you can't get any better than this deal from Cyfac for their Cadence frameset. Not a plug at all, just happened to find it and Cyfac are really top notch...

http://www.cyfac.fr/Boutique/page4/page5/cyfacspecials.html

[roadgap]

Phillipe Gilbert is one bad muthafucka.

[cbrpaul]

I still stand by my statements regarding carbon. If you want to overbuild something, you probably aren't taking advantage of what the material can do, in an attempt to work around a manufacturing or knowledge shortcoming. I work with the stuff, and design it to it's limits, with the understanding of the process we'll be using to fabricate the parts, then test the finished parts to validate the initial assumptions.

The reason unbranded carbon frames are available is because they are factory rejects. If they met the customer's specs, they would have been sold as branded frames, and netted their manufacturer much more money. The material is extremely sensitive to how it is handled and stored.

That said, a carbon frame by an experienced manufacturer with a great track record would be your best bet if you want carbon. They can be beautiful to ride. So can steel and Ti. Spend your money on the other components - you'll never regret it, get a cheap frame that fits, and later upgrade the frame if you want to.