How Do High DIN Bindings Relate to Knee Injuries?

[Darkside]

Not being able to ski has given me a lot of time to think...probably not a good thing.

So this question is: If you're involved in a backwards twisting fall, does your DIN setting matter? From what I know, it seems that no matter what, bindings just won't release in this instance(except maybe Lines). So whether you had your DIN at 3 or 13, aren't you just as likely to not release and to tweak your knee?

[AltaPowderDaze]

line and tyrolia both have upward pressure releases for this reason. i'd assume that if you twisted enough on a low toe setting you'd be more likely to come out than on a high one.

i know you can turn the upward releases on/off on the tyrolia. don't know about line.

edit: clarification-- when twisting on a toe piece in a regular alpine binding you should be more apt to come out when on a lower din. in the fall you described, it would depend on where the pressure was on the binding. if you're lucky, the twisting will get it before the upward does.

[hucksquaw]

most bindings have toe peices that allow you to release in this type of fall, this didnt used to be the case but now it is. and some allow you to turn this type of release on or off. however in this case DIN does matter.

[Darkside]

most bindings have toe peices that allow you to release in this type of fall, this didnt used to be the case but now it is. and some allow you to turn this type of release on or off. however in this case DIN does matter.

Most bindings have upward releasing toe pieces? I myself am somewhat of a tech JONG, but that seems fishy to me.

[BakerBoy]

Fischer/Tyrolia race bindings don't have upward toe release, but do have a pivoting heal piece (in theory, similar to a Look/Rossi turntable) that is supposed to help release in odd falls, like forward and backward twisting ones.

[hucksquaw]

hey darkside it only seems fishy to you b/c you dont know what your talking about! im a former tech and racer, sponsored by atomic, so im not an idiot when it comes to these subjects. companies have developed bindings (not all their models) that release in these types of falls b/c they didnt used to have the tech. and people were getting injured.

[Darkside]

hey darkside it only seems fishy to you b/c you dont know what your talking about! im a former tech and racer, sponsored by atomic, so im not an idiot when it comes to these subjects. companies have developed bindings (not all their models) that release in these types of falls b/c they didnt used to have the tech. and people were getting injured.

You are a fucking idiot. That is it. Get the fuck out of here, and stay out. Actually, PM me with you address, and I'll come kick your ass.

[hucksquaw]

ya ok. way to come back on that one. you cant even justify why im an idiot because your too fuckin stupid. and keep telling yourself that you can kick my ass.

[AltaPowderDaze]

Fischer/Tyrolia race bindings don't have upward toe release, but do have a pivoting heal piece (in theory, similar to a Look/Rossi turntable) that is supposed to help release in odd falls, like forward and backward twisting ones.

i forgot that he said high din. the tyrolia demos and some of the lower din binders they make do have the upward release.

i don't want to have an acl injury, but it would seem that some of the counter measures binding companies use (upward release) would be counter productive for hard chargers that huck. you can't stick em all. sometimes you end up back slapping and want to stay in the binding.

[Darkside]

ya ok. way to come back on that one. you cant even justify why im an idiot because your too fuckin stupid. and keep telling yourself that you can kick my ass.

"Oh, look at me, I'm sponsored by a company that makes shitty bindings!" You're an idiot mostly because when I asked a question(s), you for some reason decided to start talking shit. Also, I looked at all of the major binding manufacturers websites and only Tyrolia and Marker claim that their bindings release upwards, even though BakerBoy (who's opinion I can respect) says they don't. In actuality, it looks like those toepieces rely on mostly side pressure (the Marker page says that the boot has to move laterally before it will release upwards, and even then it's not certain).
Obviously you're afraid that I would kick your ass, otherwise I'd have your address and be at your fucking door right now. :knock knock:

[hucksquaw]

actually they dont make shitty bindings and they probably have the most sophisticated binding manufactured this year. do you get all your info online? maybe thats why your so fuckin stupid when it comes to skiing. not every component of a manufactured product is listed on a co. site because most people, including yourself, wont understand what theyre talking about.

[Darkside]

actually they dont make shitty bindings and they probably have the most sophisticated binding manufactured this year. do you get all your info online? maybe thats why your so fuckin stupid when it comes to skiing. not every component of a manufactured product is listed on a co. site because most people, including yourself, wont understand what theyre talking about.

If you can explain how Atomic bindings toepieces release upwards, I'm sure I'll understand it.

[Dromond]

http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~cosley/photoalbum/electron/catfight.jpg

[CaddyDaddy77]

Beyond the pissing contest, while some are still squatting to get the job done....


Salomon uses their spheric toe piece to weight the actual AFD in a backward twisting fall. This in turn is designed to release the toe wings in correlation to the side where the downward pressure is applied. From what I understand, it is correspondant to the DIN.
Marker uses their Biometric release, to release upwards but I'm not sure if it is corresponding to the DIN setting.

As mentioned lots of the greens etc., don't have the same toes or the same releases as the normal production models.


BTW, integration of circutry does not make a superior binding.
One of these years it would be nice if Atomic addressed the weight problem.

[hucksquaw]

well maybe you should check atomics site again b/c it does say their bindings release backwards.. dumbass

[Darkside]

Beyond the pissing contest, while some are still squatting to get the job done....


Salomon uses their spheric toe piece to weight the actual AFD in a backward twisting fall. This in turn is designed to release the toe wings in correlation to the side where the downward pressure is applied. From what I understand, it is correspondant to the DIN.
Marker uses their Biometric release, to release upwards but I'm not sure if it is corresponding to the DIN setting.

As mentioned lots of the greens etc., don't have the same toes or the same releases as the normal production models.


BTW, integration of circutry does not make a superior binding.
One of these years it would be nice if Atomic addressed the weight problem.


Thank you for an actual response. It sounds to me like the term "upwards release" is not quite accurate, as it is in actuality a lateral release initiated by upwards pressure?

Oh, and I'm hoping that hucksquaw can convince me to buy some $1000 bindings.

[The AD]

If you can explain how Atomic bindings toepieces release upwards, I'm sure I'll understand it.

But didn't you say a "backward TWISTING fall?" Won't the twisting cause a torque in the toe piece which should cause a release? I know fuck-all about bindings, but this seems logical to me.

[AltaPowderDaze]

But didn't you say a "backward TWISTING fall?" Won't the twisting cause a torque in the toe piece which should cause a release?

not on din 18. high dins 12+ take either a lot weight or a lot of torque.

[hucksquaw]

who said you had to buy them, i just said they had superior technology. and word for word on the atomic site says the binding has "backward release" thats what the technological component is called.

[Darkside]

But didn't you say a "backward TWISTING fall?" Won't the twisting cause a torque in the toe piece which should cause a release?

Well, I think the operative word is should. It seems like if that was the case, there wouldn't be any injuries related to these type of falls, and it wouldn't be such an issue that companies are developing new technologies (i.e. Line) to try and solve it. Not saying you're not right, just thinking outloud.

[CaddyDaddy77]

Without getting too technical the Salomon weights the AFD and releases laterally.
I think the Marker does rthe same general thing but with the weight being displaced over the top of the toe of the boot, the center piece that is unique to Marker toes.

Either way, yes the idea is to let the binding release laterally, when there is not enough torque to normally release the boot form the system when there is a backward twisting fall. The reason being the force is generally applied in a pivot manner across the horizontal access, instead of straight across the same access. Or, that the force is going down more than out because your in the backseat trying to correct it, and your knee either makes a nasty pop or doesn't.

Oh, and wait until you have to replace the nifty little battery in your $1,000 binding, it has to be soldered in, wonder what that will cost.

[AltaPowderDaze]

just figured out what all this animosity is about. here is where the chip on the shoulder (http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19575) came from.

[hucksquaw]

if youve got the money to buy $1,000 bindings you should have the $$ to replace the battery

[Darkside]

if youve got the money to buy $1,000 bindings you should have the $$ to replace the battery

The pearls of wisdom keep coming.

[BakerBoy]

Without getting too technical the Salomon weights the AFD and releases laterally.
I think the Marker does rthe same general thing but with the weight being displaced over the top of the toe of the boot, the center piece that is unique to Marker toes.

Either way, yes the idea is to let the binding release laterally, when there is not enough torque to normally release the boot form the system when there is a backward twisting fall. The reason being the force is generally applied in a pivot manner across the horizontal access, instead of straight across the same access. Or, that the force is going down more than out because your in the backseat trying to correct it, and your knee either makes a nasty pop or doesn't.

Oh, and wait until you have to replace the nifty little battery in your $1,000 binding, it has to be soldered in, wonder what that will cost.

This is the main premise behind Fischer/Tyrolia race bindings as well. I haven't looked at any of the non-race ones lately, since I only ski on the Fischer FR17s... The AFD is not teflon, but rather a piece of treaded rubber on a series of rollers that mechanically pushes the toe laterally out of the toepiece in a twisting fall. This, coupled with the laterally releasing heel piece, is supposed to offer more protection, since the static teflon AFD of the Salomon's can get unweighted during a backward twisting fall and not function properly. They definitely do not have "true" upward release, which is something that the Salomons (and the Look/Rossi race bindings with the pedastal toes) are closer to with their pedastal toe design, but the as somebody mentioned, the last thing I want while charging is a low elasticity binding that will release upward from the toe === MARKER.

...I ski for Fischer...

[hucksquaw]

fo sho. markers do have a tendency of pre-releasing.

[BakerBoy]

fo sho. markers do have a tendency of pre-releasing.

Marker's release to the best of their designed ability, and do so at exactly the same load every time, the instant that point is met. Thus, the inherent design flaw for people who don't ski on groomers. But Brad Holmes loves them.

[Mechmaster]

Most of the pre-release issues with Markers are related to the backward-fall release mechanism. See

http://www.markerusa.com/site.jsp?sk=g57tLSmBsuInMoVz&resource=pag_ex_bindings_safety

and look at the "Biometric programmed release". The amount of load required to release backwards is 20-50% of the lateral loading. Thus, an inadvertant bump or loss of balance can easily trigger the mechanism and release the skier. Also, once release conditions are met, the cam in the toe makes it unlikely for the boot not to release.

Marker team bindings replace the Biometric mechanism with a solid plate. This improves the retension greatly.

As said before, Markers are biased towards release over retention (less lateral elasticity).

Neither the Look/Rossi toe or the Salomon (Spheric) toe release upward at a different loading than laterally, although the Spheric system is designed to "push" or start the toe releasing in certain conditions. Both designs have improved lateral elasticity over the Marker toe. Salomon Spheric has "dual inclined pivots" which imply that the binding release path is "up and out" rather than "out" in all cases.

[Plakespear]

do you get all your info online? maybe thats why your so fuckin stupid when it comes to skiing.




well maybe you should check atomics site again b/c it does say their bindings release backwards.. dumbass

and word for word on the atomic site says...



This explains a lot.

[joshbu]

Well, I took a backwards twister in AK last year on a set of 916s whose DIN was too high for me (on that particular day) and whose toe wings were not well calibrated. I came out, but not after giving my knee a good twist. Result: torn meniscus.

At any rate, in the Solly case, the toe wings release is tied to the DIN, as CD says. I would assume that is the case with the other front release mechanisms on other bindings. That's why the toe piece HAS a DIN setting.

[altagirl]

Release mechanisms aside, I've read/heard that you can tear an ACL even if your bindings are set on zero and you're wearing a fancy custom knee brace. It takes very little movement and force - it's more a matter of falling into the wrong position and then trying to stand back up, which is not really putting much force on the binding, just on your knee. If they made a brace tight enough to totally prevent it you couldn't move, and if they made bindings release easily enough you'd never stay in them at all. Bottom line is that you can't depend on any binding to protect your knees from all injuries. The way I understand it, keeping DIN settings in the normal human being range is more to protect your bones than your ligaments.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot though... :biggrin:

[Summit]

the knee joint is a horribly fragile joint and the ligaments in it are horribly fragile as well.

[Duker]

fo sho. markers do have a tendency of pre-releasing.

Yeah Ive never seen an atomic binding pre-release. :rolleyes2 Hopefully that new super gizzmo computer binding solved this. But even if it did is it worth paying $1000 so your binding can tell you that you have snow under your boot as opposed to paying >$200 for a proven solly or look binding?

[Donald Trump]

hucksquaw,

YOU'RE FIRED.

[Stikki]

What the heck is a "backwards twisting fall" anyway?? Do you suddenly become a f'ing retard and fall over backwards while turning? Seriously.

Picture this, you’re ripping down a 40-degree chute and graze a submerged ice chunk. Thrown slightly off balance and into the back seat you fight to get your hands forward and up over your skis again. Suddenly you realize that you are hurtling ever faster down the chute and take notice of the trees coming at you. Instinct takes over and you initiate a turn to avoid the trees but being that you are tail gunning one of your skis twists uncontrollably away from you. Pop! There goes the weasel. Season over. And remember this all happens in less than a second.

[Spats]

The Salomon "Spheric" toe isn't designed to do anything in backward twisting falls: it's designed to make the boot release better in forward twisting falls. Think about it: the plate is under the boot...if you're leaning backwards, the boot is pulling up on the toe and no contact is being made there.

Pushing down on the Spheric plate makes the binding release more easily to the side. Additionally, when the toepiece releases, it twists slightly up in addition to rotating. This gives the boot some vertical clearance so it can pop out even if it's being twisted, unlike a purely rotational release where twisting along the axis of the ski will bind the boot and keep it from coming out.

There are several problems with this mechanism:

1) Setting a hard edge twists the boot in the binding, putting pressure on the Spheric plate and causing the toe to release at lower DIN than otherwise. In my opinion, when you set a hard edge is exactly when you don't want a binding to release.

2) Landing hard off a jump, especially to flat, puts a lot of downward pressure on the Spheric plate. Again, this causes the toe to release more easily precisely when you don't want it to.

3) In order to sense pressure, the Spheric plate has measurable travel. When setting a hard edge, the Spheric plate is pushed through some part of its travel -- and even if you don't release there will then be slop in the toepiece. This is particularly noticeable with very wide skis, where the twisting force on the binding is high. The ski will not set an edge well, and will frequently chatter due to the slop.
You can test this yourself: even squeezing the Spheric plate with your fingers will push it in a mm or two. The newer Spheric Oversize (silver/black/white AFD) is much worse than the old generation (yellow/black AFD).

4) This isn't a Spheric problem, but issue 3) is exacerbated by the flexy plastic construction, and by the fact that the toepiece is only actually attached to the rest of the ski by a small pole in the center. Grab the toe wing with your hand and squeeze it toward the ski: you'll notice that you can move it quite a bit.

The summary of all these problems is that recent Salomon bindings have very low torsional rigidity, causing chatter and loss of edge control with fat skis on hard snow -- and they will tend to release precisely when you don't want them to.

I have seen all my prerelease issues go away after switching to Look/Rossi: I've skied the last two years on Pivot bindings set to DIN 6.5 and never released prematurely, versus having prerelease problems on S912 bindings at 8. I'll be experimenting with Tyrolia this year -- the other alpine binding manufacturer whose design isn't intrinsically flawed.

[joshbu]

<paraphrase>I never fall. I am in control at all times.</paraphrase>

May I suggest www.epicski.com? They don't ever fall over there either.

Spats: Are you talking about Solly consumer bindings? I'm pretty sure my 916s don't have the spheric toe, the the wings are metal. They don't really flex at all.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Release mechanisms aside, I've read/heard that you can tear an ACL even if your bindings are set on zero and you're wearing a fancy custom knee brace. It takes very little movement and force - it's more a matter of falling into the wrong position and then trying to stand back up, which is not really putting much force on the binding, just on your knee. If they made a brace tight enough to totally prevent it you couldn't move, and if they made bindings release easily enough you'd never stay in them at all. Bottom line is that you can't depend on any binding to protect your knees from all injuries. The way I understand it, keeping DIN settings in the normal human being range is more to protect your bones than your ligaments.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot though... :biggrin:

That's basically true, although the DIN on zero thing might be a very slight exaggeration. I've blown through two ACL's now, and no binding could've saved either one of them (bindings never released in either crash, but they should not have released, and it wouldn't have helped if they had).
And of course no brace can protect your ACL, as the few mm of movement the ACL restricts are too fine a movement for any brace that isn't drilled into your bone to guard against. I am curious about some of the newer studies that seem to show lower reinjury rates among brace wearers, though--my guess is either the studies are somehow exaggerating the effect through a form of self-selection, or people wearing the braces are behaving differently (smarter?) than those without.

But we'll continue to feel free to call you an idiot;)

Hucksquaw making a big push for JOTY status.

[Spicoli]

THIS JUST IN.......

People who don't even ski get ACL injuries :rolleyes:







Hucksquaw's trolling hard and gettin' lots of bites too

[dipstik]

If it helps any, my Atomic race 412's from 00-01 had a little switch on the top of the toe piece that read something like "backward release" and you could turn it on or off using a screwdriver...


So one time I set the DIN all the way down, clicked a boot in, and tried to get it to release straight up and back, but it didnt work. :confused:

[Idris]

THIS JUST IN.......

People who don't even ski get ACL injuries :rolleyes:







Hucksquaw's trolling hard and gettin' lots of bites too

too true, as a race kid 4 of my buddies lost acl's playing soccer and none from skiing...playing with a soccer ball in a parking lot is way more likley to wreck your knees than skiing!

[altagirl]

And of course no brace can protect your ACL, as the few mm of movement the ACL restricts are too fine a movement for any brace that isn't drilled into your bone to guard against. I am curious about some of the newer studies that seem to show lower reinjury rates among brace wearers, though--my guess is either the studies are somehow exaggerating the effect through a form of self-selection, or people wearing the braces are behaving differently (smarter?) than those without.


My guess is that it is because some ACL injuries are the result of actual crashes where a brace could protect you vs. the typical backseat rearward falling deal that is so difficult to protect against. But that's pure speculation. It could also be, like you said, that brace wearers are skiing more conservatively. Though my first surgeon didn't want me to ever wear a brace because he felt it would have the opposite effect and I'd think I was invincible and be more likely to hurt myself or push too hard to soon. Personally I don't find that to be true with a brace or a helmet (where you hear the same type of arguments) - if it's comfortable I don't notice it and I just ski normally - the only difference being that if I'm used to using it and suddenly am not wearing it - THEN I'm more conservative. Hard to say for the general population though.

[Darkside]

Picture this, you’re ripping down a 40-degree chute and graze a submerged ice chunk. Thrown slightly off balance and into the back seat you fight to get your hands forward and up over your skis again. Suddenly you realize that you are hurtling ever faster down the chute and take notice of the trees coming at you. Instinct takes over and you initiate a turn to avoid the trees but being that you are tail gunning one of your skis twists uncontrollably away from you. Pop! There goes the weasel. Season over. And remember this all happens in less than a second.

That's pretty much what happened to me when I hurt my knee last weekend. I didn't even really fall. Got backseat on some steep stuff, tried to change directions quickly, tail got bogged down in wet snow or hit a rock, and boom.

[Dexter Rutecki]

My guess is that it is because some ACL injuries are the result of actual crashes where a brace could protect you vs. the typical backseat rearward falling deal that is so difficult to protect against.

I'm just having trouble envisioning such a fall (your first scenario), although I suppose it's possible--even so, I wouldn't think it would be statistically significant. But I believe a brace certainly can protect against some other knee injuries...The whole brace/non-brace issue is a big question mark for everyone, it seems (surgeons and people who do the studies don't have definitive answers, either). I wore a brace in the summer after my first ACL, but it was useless and I felt so much better once I got rid of it--having the brace actually made me trust my knee less, and it wasn't until I ditched it that I realized my new ACL was actually doing what it was supposed to do. This time, no brace at all, and I'm glad about that.
Both my crashes were simple impact, straight up and down, no twisting, so like I said, no binding in the world woulda helped, far as I can tell.

[Z]

quick question for you ppl in the know/huckers out there....do you ski your toe DIN higher/lower in relation to the heel? would it make any difference, or is there a theory/ideas to the differentiation (sp?)?

[Summit]

quick question for you ppl in the know/huckers out there....do you ski your toe DIN higher/lower in relation to the heel? would it make any difference, or is there a theory/ideas to the differentiation (sp?)?

I ski higher on the tail.

[altagirl]

I'm just having trouble envisioning such a fall (your first scenario), although I suppose it's possible--even so, I wouldn't think it would be statistically significant. But I believe a brace certainly can protect against some other knee injuries...The whole brace/non-brace issue is a big question mark for everyone, it seems (surgeons and people who do the studies don't have definitive answers, either). I wore a brace in the summer after my first ACL, but it was useless and I felt so much better once I got rid of it--having the brace actually made me trust my knee less, and it wasn't until I ditched it that I realized my new ACL was actually doing what it was supposed to do. This time, no brace at all, and I'm glad about that.
Both my crashes were simple impact, straight up and down, no twisting, so like I said, no binding in the world woulda helped, far as I can tell.

It's just a theory - I have no idea on the statistics of what type of falls account for what percentage of injuries.

And as far as bracing I guess it depends on how the brace affects your skiing. I didn't ski with a brace at all after my first reconstruction. So that was like 200 some ski days with no brace - no problems and I was skiing way better than I ever did before surgery, but I did wind up with a torn meniscus after that. After the partial menisectomy my new surgeon insisted that I wear a Defiance for skiing. And it feels totally comfortable - I honestly forget it's there when I'm skiing (telemarking too). So I can't really see any reason not to wear it, even if it's just protecting against impact injuries and such. I'm getting a second Defiance in another couple weeks and he wants me to wear it for skiing (not that I can ski for a while...). Said it's up to me if I want to wear them both or just on the most recently operated on knee. No idea yet how that will feel, but we'll see. I think I'm going to wear them both for downhilling. (I heart body armor. ;) )

And I do know what you're talking about with learning to trust the new ACL - I remember going through that with my first post-op mountain biking fall and realizing my knee was tougher than I thought it was.

[BakerBoy]

quick question for you ppl in the know/huckers out there....do you ski your toe DIN higher/lower in relation to the heel? would it make any difference, or is there a theory/ideas to the differentiation (sp?)?

I run 1 or 2 DIN higher on my toes.

[Z]

thats what i would think....for backseat landings/slaps where your mostly pulling on the toe...

[Spats]

Spats: Are you talking about Solly consumer bindings? I'm pretty sure my 916s don't have the spheric toe, the the wings are metal. They don't really flex at all.

Yes, I'm talking about the 810/912/914. The 916, being metal and an older design based on the 977/997, is much more stable. The ZZ S-Lab version has none of the Spheric stuff at all, just a regular AFD. The regular 916 appears to have the older version of Spheric, but without handling one I can't really tell.

I still think the Look design is better, but the 916 is a solid binding.

[Dexter Rutecki]

And I do know what you're talking about with learning to trust the new ACL - I remember going through that with my first post-op mountain biking fall and realizing my knee was tougher than I thought it was.

Yeah, like I said, my first one I rehabbed over the summer while teaching tennis, and it wasn't until I lost the brace that I really began to understand that the knee would do what it should. For a long time I couldn't really stop/cut off the bad (left, back then) knee--I'd always take one extra step to stop on the right.
For skiing, my first day back that fall I decided to test it on a jump, and it actually scared the shit out of me when I hit the lip--reminded me too much of how I blew my knee to start with. But once I landed and everything worked, I was pretty much 'cured'.
I've seen those Defiance braces--pretty burly.

[basom]

dex what are the numbers of recurance that you are working with?
i heard something like 3% of skiers comming off an acl rehab, wearing a brace, re-tear their shit. opposed to 8% of recurance for those skiers not wearing a brace. do those number seem right to you?

[altagirl]

dex what are the numbers of recurance that you are working with?
i heard something like 3% of skiers comming off an acl rehab, wearing a brace, re-tear their shit. opposed to 8% of recurance for those skiers not wearing a brace. do those number seem right to you?

Like a month ago my surgeon went to a conference and for the new study that was presented he said the numbers were 4% ACL re-injury for braced skiers, 8% for non-braced skiers.

[basom]

Like a month ago my surgeon went to a conference and for the new study that was presented he said the numbers were 4% ACL re-injury for braced skiers, 8% for non-braced skiers.
heh, now i remember where i got those numbers from. between AG, Dex, Vin, Big E, and myself i figure we could go into busniess consulting skiers about acl reconstruction. bunch of pros we are. TJ would even call us a clique, thats when you know you've hit the big time.

[L7]

Well I guess I'll throw my .02. Sorry if I repeat some I haven't read every post here.

If you are in rehab I'm sure you've heard mention of hamstring strength. That is really the only and best way to protect the ACL. You need to train the hamstring in a full range of movement and I think also to respond quickly. Muscles can be trained for both range and speed of movement as you'll find if you get tested on a cybex machine. The shocks that cause intense reactions of the quad (tail landings etc) also come very fast and the hamstrings have to be able to respond in kind. If not the quads can overpower the hams and POP regardless of binding and in some cases maybe even regardless of brace.

When I had my ACL redone the surgeon said he didn't want me to use a brace. His thinking was assuming I could ski well enough to not fall down for a couple of months that I would ski into condition ALL the muscles through a FULL range of movement. This was on top of and after physical therapy. His repair has seen me through an additional 1200+ days of skiing with only some recent cartiledge problems semi related to the initial injury.

The issue of high DINS on bindings can increase chances of knee injury but probably not as specific to the ACL but the medial ligaments may be at greater risk. High DINs are often used to compensate for what is really a forward pressure or toe height problem causing poor shock retention of the binding. Pre release can also be as easy as not weighting the inside ski. Any ski flailing around unweighted and bouncing off terrain can release due to shock energy. Some are better than others but cranking the DIN is not the answer and keeping pressure on the ski for dampening benefit can be a lot of the solution.

Balanced skiing and the strength (core) to stay balanced is going to do more to prevent injury than high DINs will. The high DIN could very likely contribute to the possibility severity of injury.

[BradyCU]

actually they dont make shitty bindings and they probably have the most sophisticated binding manufactured this year. do you get all your info online? maybe thats why your so fuckin stupid when it comes to skiing. not every component of a manufactured product is listed on a co. site because most people, including yourself, wont understand what theyre talking about.

I'd rather ski markers before atomics, and that's saying something
Atomic's won't let you in if there is one flake of snow on the sole of your boot :rolleyes: But on a brighter note they do make good anchors if you need to tie up your boat at tahoe brah!

[BradyCU]

The regular 916 appears to have the older version of Spheric, but without handling one I can't really tell.

I still think the Look design is better, but the 916 is a solid binding.

Yes the regular 916 has the older spheric, it has a lower profile than the new ones; I have a pair and I have a pair of rossi fks 18.5's and I agree the look design is the most bomber of any on the market. You can't hurt those things.

[mildbill.]

One is to not be a pussy and get yourself back in control before you make your next move and then ride that shit switch into the road








tencharacters

[Spats]

The S916's I have look like they have spheric, but they don't. The AFD only looks like a spheric type, it functions like the 997. The binders are functionally the same as a 997 driver.

That's what I figured...I couldn't imagine all the Salomon pro riders, especially the jibbers, riding a binding that tries to blow you out when you land. Thanks for the info.

[Darkside]

Somewhat plauseable. Sounds more like bad instincts to me though. If turning using your knee/pivoting your foot while in the back seat is part of your skier "instincts", I would recommend working on changing that some how, since that instinct is going blow your knee. There's two other better ways to handle that above situation. One is to not be a pussy and get yourself back in control before you make your next move. To me, taking a split second to get back on top of things and gaining a little more speed, but then being in total control and being able to steer or check speed, is better than making some half assed move which *might* get you out of trouble, or might not. What if you don't have time to get back in control? That should never happen - you should always leave a little bit on the table, so you can have that split second to get out of trouble if you need it. The other way I guess is to bail out in a controlled manner, falling, or some sort of safety speed check.

Well, that would be all fine and good, but in reality, I don't think this is really how things work. If you really don't ever fall or get out of control, you're either not pushing it, or you must be some sort of pro. Because we all know that pros never fall, and never hurt themselves.

[L7]

I'm not sure you need to take exception with it any more than I would take exception with your DIN chart +50% idea. I would be leery of anything melting down quite that simply. It has some merit though.

I'm not sure how big you are or your boot sole but most of those DINS aren't even really that big. I've skied Sallys 12 at the toe and 14 in the back and walked out of a well set up binding and skied off on the other ski. I would have weighed in about 175 then with a 313 BSL which of course is the other factor. Just a big hole in the course and an unweighted ski.

My real point is the idea of banging up the DIN endlessly when the real problem is lack of forward pressure, worn down boot sole, maladjusted toe height etc. or skiing in the back seat and applying shock forces the bindings will not tolerate. These days I ski a little higher than my recommended DIN in the (3+) category. The rigors of hard skiing go beyond what the DIN charts are designed for.

I certainly don't mean to suggest anyone who ever prereleased doesn't know how to balance on skis (although it is a very common correlation) but the weighting of both skis is another separate factor. Keeping enough weight on both skis enough to dampen the ski can definitely help keep skis on. Ever notice how skiers who ski with weight back alot bend a lot of tips? The unweighted (undampened) front end of the ski takes the impact in a more damaging shot than a centre weighted ski that absorbs the impact more gradually over more of the ski.

Skiing balanced is still more effective for injury avoidance than high DINs. Used intellingently higher DINS have their place as is apparent on the World Cup and big mountain skiing in Alaska. However, using a high DIN to replace the need for balanced skiing is just a recipe for a short ski career.

[Summit]

^What he said!

When was the last time you checked the forward pressure? FP that is too low or high will cause prereleases!

When was the last time you checked your toe height with a slide card (for Solly)?

When was the last time you chekced your AFD?

When was the last time you had your boot measured? (Actually measured, not just taking the number off the side! You could be 10mm different!!! This can majorly affect your chart indicated values!)

Checked the heel/toe for DIN compatibility vs wear? Heavily worn toes and heels will cause prereleases.

When was the last time you had your binding tested?????????????????
1 year? 3 years?
Binding age and boot wear can make a huge difference between your VIS and the actual effetive release value! 3 Din isn't extraordinary with worn boots or worn AFD!

[Summit]

All my equipment is properly adjusted and in good working order, jong.

Good for you cocksucker. :tdo13:

Very few people would be able to say that.

[Dexter Rutecki]

^What he said!

When was the last time you checked the forward pressure? FP that is too low or high will cause prereleases!

When was the last time you checked your toe height with a slide card (for Solly)?

When was the last time you chekced your AFD?

When was the last time you had your boot measured? (Actually measured, not just taking the number off the side! You could be 10mm different!!! This can majorly affect your chart indicated values!)

Checked the heel/toe for DIN compatibility vs wear? Heavily worn toes and heels will cause prereleases.

When was the last time you had your binding tested?????????????????
1 year? 3 years?
Binding age and boot wear can make a huge difference between your VIS and the actual effetive release value! 3 Din isn't extraordinary with worn boots or worn AFD!

Have never checked forward pressure--jam 'em in, see if it looks and feels (clicks in) right, and go (I guess I've checked my Salomons where it's easy to check).
I use a Metrocard (subway card) for toe height, rarely. If I barely see daylight, it's cool.
What do you mean by check an AFD? If it's there, it's good. AFD seems pretty useless to me--skied years ago before there were AFDs, and release seemed the same. Snow and ice on the AFD affect its supposed function?
Never measured my boot. Don't wear it in parking lots, etc., though, so not much wear.
Not sure what DIN compatibility vs. wear means.
Never had a binding tested. Shop guys I used to know claimed they'd test bindings by seeing if they could knock the boot out with a hammer (actually saw a pretty high-tech machine testing bindings at Kmart yesterday, though).

In spite of all that, I rarely have any pre-releases. My Rossi race bindings pre-released on me once in three years, and only released about three other times, total--maybe 60-70 days on those things in that period (I run 'em on 9 heel and toe, probably one lower than my other bindings). Same for the Sallys and Tyrolias I use. If you take care of your equipment (no uncovered ski racks, no extra walking in boots), I don't think you need to worry too much. Who knows.

[powdog]

I have had good results with top-end (not race) Salomon bindings for 20 years -they seem to release when they should. Although Tyrolia has made its bindings are made in shop or on-site (no outside vendors), few Western ski shops will work on them or mount them.

In the steeps or in two feet of powder, I put my toe-pieces one DIN higher than the heels, but usually I set both heel and toe pieces at the same DIN. But I crank my bindings up to when it's three-plus feet of pow to at least two DIN higher, because it's a hassle putting powder cords on my skis.

About 90 percent of the time I fall forward or sideways - the only time I fall backwards is when I'm goofing off or in the lift line.

I'm not that convinced about the Line Pivogy binding - it seems very hard to carve or put decent pressure on the toepiece, but I'm not a binding nerd.

[1080Rider]

All my equipment is properly adjusted and in good working order, jong.

Says the guy w/ 20 posts to the guy w/ 1,800???

[marshalolson]

a suggestion for setting bindings:

1. make sure they are set properly w/ forward pressure and toe height etc..

2. set the DIN slightly below what you think you should need at the beginning of the season (ie i am usually around 12-13, so i start at 11 on new bindings)

3. turn up the DIN as needed on the first run or two of riding - make hard turns, haul ass, and find something to jump off of.

4. this is not a set and forget. if you prerelease through-out the season, tighten it up a bit.

edit:

the biggest differance in binding makers is weighting retention and release. the amount of elasticity (motion before release) governs prerelease. looks have the most elastic heel peice, salomons the most elastic toes, thus most rippers prefer those bindings cause they will tend to stay in and recover.
race bindings obviously value retention even more than retail bindings.

[MeatPuppet]

I thought people should know shit like this...most commercial bindings have had an upward releasing toe peice since the mid 90's, 10 years now. Pretty common thing. Interesting thing is that most race stock binders do not, for reasons discussed above. Question:

So, do you think that good skiers really need an upward releasing toe piece? What the heck is a "backwards twisting fall" anyway?? Do you suddenly become a f'ing retard and fall over backwards while turning? Seriously. When I "fall", it's usually in a pretty controlled situation where a minor f'up puts me on the ground before I can recover, but I'm almost always in control on the way down. Experience tells me how to go down in ways that will minimise injury. My skis never, ever, come off when I "fall", because they would pre-release too often otherwise. "Crashing", well I guess that's a whole nother bag, since all sorts of violent forces will take a ski off some how. I'm about 180 lb, and ski Salomon race stock binders (3 pair) and 997 drivers (2 pair), set around 12 to 14 din, depending.


..........
Highway Star

[MeatPuppet]

I take issue with this. My recommended DIN is an 8. Skiing agressively at a normal ski area, I can pre-release at least once a run at a DIN of 8.......how does that do me any good? I can get by at din of 10, but still blow out every few runs. Ususally at ski demo I can get a DIN of 11 max, and do ok with that, blowing out a couple times day. I run my powder/rock/tree skis at 11, since I've found I want them to release pretty easy, and I suck it up and deal with the occasional prerelease. My regular skiing din these days is a 13 DIN on properly adjusted salomons, except the toes are adjusted for zero vertical play. I want these skis to never pre-release, and they never have. I have some big speed skis, and I rock those at 14.

The DIN of 8 is pretty useless. A DIN of 12 is probably my sweet spot, the perfect mix of retention and release - still pretty easy to release out of in a crash, but hard to prerelase out of. I go to 13 because I favor retention over release, but run my tree skis at 11 since I want to come out of those easier when I get hung up.

So, maybe that's a good rule of thumb.....if you're a young strong agressive expert, take your recommended level III din, and just add 50% to it.......

:FIREdevil . Then, add or subtract based on your preferences for release/retention.

Oh, and this is all on properly adjusted salomon race stock or 997 drivers. Yes, I ski plenty balanced.


..........
Highway Star

[MeatPuppet]

Somewhat plauseable. Sounds more like bad instincts to me though. If turning using your knee/pivoting your foot while in the back seat is part of your skier "instincts", I would recommend working on changing that some how, since that instinct is going blow your knee. There's two other better ways to handle that above situation. One is to not be a pussy and get yourself back in control before you make your next move. To me, taking a split second to get back on top of things and gaining a little more speed, but then being in total control and being able to steer or check speed, is better than making some half assed move which *might* get you out of trouble, or might not. What if you don't have time to get back in control? That should never happen - you should always leave a little bit on the table, so you can have that split second to get out of trouble if you need it. The other way I guess is to bail out in a controlled manner, falling, or some sort of safety speed check.



Highway Star