soloing in the backcountry [Archive] - Teton Gravity Research Forums

AltaPowderDaze

10-25-2004, 04:53 PM

This thread was moved and retitled to more accuratly reflect the thread drift and its contents. none of the text has been changed, well atleast not mine.

another sick day. once again, the lightest and deepest day for me of the year. breaking trail was calf to knee deep in areas at low elevation. up at the top, if you steped off your skis w/o packing down you'd be hip deep. packed you sunk to just past the knee.

entering snowbird:
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28718.jpg

i headed into the bird cautiously since i was solo again. this pic shows my pole in the fresh layers (not ramming it in).
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28719.jpg

i dug a few quick pits as i went. this one was just above the key hole itself. it showed a less dense layer about 1.5-2' down. just a little upside down, but it didn't worry me since it all felt good.http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28723.jpg

now i turned my attention down the key hole. it was tight, steep in areas, but well filled in. it wasn't truely skiable two januarys ago and now it is stuffed with the white stuff instead of the rock ledges.
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28725.jpg

in some areas the slough was running pretty good. i skied from safe zone to safe zone while checking things all the way down. it doesn't look like it because of the funny angle, but i am actually quite safe right here. the fall line banks pretty hard right there and my skis are nearly butted up against the trees.
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28722.jpg

i hit one localized pocket on the way down, but it only fractured and did not move.
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28729.jpg
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28721.jpg

this is looking back up at the key hole. it is hard to see, but it goes up and to the right on an angle.
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28720.jpg

the day was great. don't be suprised to see a tr from the snowbird side of baldy tomorrow if things stay this good. i looked for skiingbear's friend who was supposed to be looking for his ski on collins face, but did not see him on the way up or out. hopefully he found it. i also saw on another post that two got buried on east baldy today, but cannot confirm. i hope everyone is ok.

round trip from ,alta and back to alta, with time to dig pits and take in the scenery was just over an hour and a half. it was a good way to start the day before work. :cool:

flingle

10-25-2004, 05:04 PM

Nice, wish we had snow like that right now. It has just started raining to 3500m (something like 11,400 feet) over here.

Phil (http://www.philingle.com)

splat

10-25-2004, 05:26 PM

You wildman, APD. can't wait to ship you some Bros.

AltaPowderDaze

10-25-2004, 05:35 PM

You wildman, APD. can't wait to ship you some Bros.

you think you can't wait
:D

i'll get on those #'s soon.

glademaster

10-25-2004, 05:58 PM

Wow. You have posted a record amount of stoke on here in the past week APD. I love it! Todays looks particularly nice, I must hit the KeyHole while I'm out there, hopefully on the Spatulas, I see some features that would be amazing to play with on those bad boys. [atnijinx]

Great pics dude. :D

Dromond

10-25-2004, 06:02 PM

No seriously fuck you

:D

boarderline

10-25-2004, 06:41 PM

Nice. I wonder how Little Cloud bowl is shaping up with all this new snow.

Karl Stall

10-25-2004, 06:48 PM

Definitely a lot of stoke - I am super jealous. Looking forward to skiing with you in a few weeks! :D

gravitylover

10-25-2004, 07:02 PM

don't be suprised to see a tr from the snowbird side of baldy tomorrow if things stay this good. :cool:

NoNoNoNoNoNoNo!!! Please don't. You guys are killing me........... :D

Blurred

10-25-2004, 07:05 PM

APD-I love the pics and all the stoke, I'm jealous. However, it doesn't seem like a good idea to be skiing by yourself in those areas, especially when shit is sliding all around you. You really should ski with a partner/beacon, I'm sure there's a maggot around SLC willing to go with ya. [/safetyBobSpeech]

AltaPowderDaze

10-25-2004, 07:13 PM

yeah blurred i enjoy touring with groups but most of my old ski partners are now married or perpetually stoned. neither type is a good touring partner. ideally a group of three works best, but it is hard to get scheduals to line up. so usually i just adjust my travel and skiing to good solo practices. a tight chute isn't the best place to solo at, but i did enough tests to feel confident that i could make it down without incident. hopefully things will settle out soon.

truth

10-25-2004, 07:38 PM

when shit is sliding all around you. [/safetyBobSpeech]

Front range is makin' you soft old man... ;)

actually, skiing alone is pretty dumb in that scenario.

Blurred

10-25-2004, 08:03 PM

yeah blurred i enjoy touring with groups but most of my old ski partners are now married or perpetually stoned.

Better married or stoned then dead....Seriously, get a partner, don't be dumb, I'd like to ski with ya this winter, not read your obituary on TGR.

Front range is makin' you soft old man...

That's why they invented Viagra. ;)

ak_powder_monkey

10-25-2004, 08:31 PM

Applause to blurred!!

APD seriously I got ripped for skiing 6 inches of solid ice with about a .05% of sliding alone, that shit is breaking don't become a statistic, ski low angle stuff with a partner untill the snow pack consolidates naturally or explosive induced, seriously

that being said FKNA I hate everybody in Utah

AltaPowderDaze

10-25-2004, 09:16 PM

when at all possible i will travel with people, but i will not stop skiing the backcountry just because no one is available. going with the wrong partner can be worse than going solo in certain situations. two people under the snow can be just as dead as one. i take offense to being called dumb just because people don't understand the circumstances. it is not like a crap shoot where you are blindly playing the odds. you learn as much about the conditions as you can before you go and you gain emperical data as you climb. the up route i took is near avalanche free. i dug 3 representative pits along the way and slope cut the chute. i traveled from safe zone to safe zone so i could check the conditions as the aspect and elevation changed. i felt very confident of the conditions or i would have skinned/booted back out. i would be dumb if i were ignorant of the conditions and i went anyway, with or without a partner. ;)

splat

10-25-2004, 09:23 PM

ak_powder_monkey

10-25-2004, 11:28 PM

I totally understand where you're coming from, APD. Shit, Bullet got buried skiing inbounds with a partner. Looks like you're doing all the right things, and, wtf, we still have the right to live free or die as we choose last time I checked. I dieheartedly support free choice. Take care, bro.

So don't bash me for hiking to a mountain I can see my house from with a cell phone and virtually no avy danger and people who know where I am and when I'm suppose to be back. All I'm saying is that skiing pow is great and all but you won't be able to ski it if your dead, looks like you know your avy shit but isn't the avy class half using becons and rescuing people. If you get hurt you can still drag yourself to shelter while you wait to be rescued you get burried by an avy your dead, no chance of rescue, think about it, last I checked red lights include: new snow, snow falling, wind loading, wumphing sounds and visable snow cracks, wich I see all of in your TR, please if you ski alone ski somewhere that is safe even if it means crappy snow/ice, wait till you can line something up, I'm sure you could find plenty of utards to ski with here

splat

10-25-2004, 11:31 PM

I don't recall bashing you for anything. You must have confused me for someone else.

Ski Beaver

10-25-2004, 11:34 PM

If you get hurt you can still drag yourself to shelter while you wait to be rescued you get burried by an avy your dead, no chance of rescue, think about it, last I checked red lights include: new snow, snow falling, wind loading, wumphing sounds and ciable snow cracks.

ciable - mi nu favorit werd.

edit: nice edit AKPM.

Blurred

10-25-2004, 11:36 PM

i traveled from safe zone to safe zone so i could check the conditions as the aspect and elevation changed.

You travelled from safe zone to safe zone......hmmmmmm, so what's inbetween the safe zones??!

This is like another thread about me trying to convince someone not to vote for Kerry.

Just remember that when youre buried by yourself, you'll be cold, can't see, can't hear, can't smell and can't move, and you'll have 20-30 minutes to think about that you are dying and all the people you've left behind because of your irresposibility.....sounds pretty lame to me.

juicy

10-25-2004, 11:57 PM

Way to go APD...........nice tr.

I also applaud your approach to backcountry travel, with or without partners: Tune into the fear, don't tune it out.

ak_powder_monkey

10-26-2004, 12:03 AM

I don't recall bashing you for anything. You must have confused me for someone else.

My bad it just seems everybody was

Beave, damn you're fast

Zeedashbo

10-26-2004, 12:23 AM

You travelled from safe zone to safe zone......hmmmmmm, so what's inbetween the safe zones??!

This is like another thread about me trying to convince someone not to vote for Kerry.

Just remember that when youre buried by yourself, you'll be cold, can't see, can't hear, can't smell and can't move, and you'll have 20-30 minutes to think about that you are dying and all the people you've left behind because of your irresposibility.....sounds pretty lame to me.

dude, get a life. apd didn't do anything stoopid at all. he skied by himself. what the fuck is wrong with that? he knew his conditions, he skied appropriately according his conditions. and most of all, he was comfortable doing all of this. he didn't go do anything crazy, he skied lines that were relatively safe, and made sound decisions. i for one applaud apd. maybe in your little corner of continental snowpack hell, it might be dumb to go ski ANYTHING by yourself. but as it was assesed apd did a fine job. lay off.

Blurred

10-26-2004, 12:26 AM

dude, get a life. apd didn't do anything stoopid at all.

D.P.P.S.

.

Zeedashbo

10-26-2004, 12:27 AM

yer quick. i'm sober though. homework sucks. i should go ski some above treeline windslab by myself.

nate s

10-26-2004, 12:28 AM

I ski solo a fair amount too and think a lot of times I am safer than with a group. I have been in groups where I turned around and went off on my own because I felt safer by myself. I think the added awareness you get from skiing solo can be very rewarding and really makes you be on your shit. Look at the statistics by % and you will find solo skiers are less likely to get buried. Remember, if you wouldn't ski it without beacon/partner you shouldn't ski it anyway.

EDIT- Don't want to give anyone the wrong idea, this all assumes you have the requisite eval/backcountry skills.

Zeedashbo

10-26-2004, 12:32 AM

very good reply for a semi-jong.

cololi

10-26-2004, 09:07 AM

Holy Schiat. I actually agree with Blurred on something. And APD, what's wrong with married ski partners? I am married. I ski almost exclusively in the bc. I will never ski alone in the bc. Why? because there are other people who depend on me and it would be incredibly selfish of me to take my responsibilities to them lightly. of course, if I was single, no kids, no family, I would probably consider skiing solo in the bc, especially in avie terrain. You may recall that 5-6 years ago a snowboarder was killed in an avie on Nov 1 in that same terrain.

Buzzworthy

10-26-2004, 09:26 AM

the up route i took is near avalanche free.

NEAR.

You said it, not me.

BC jong here, but from all the snow and super stoked people, it can be easy to see only YOUR perpective.

That being said, be careful because I would like to get some turns in with you.

I know others who go out solo. I would not do it personally, but that is my choice and I do not have the proper skills and knowledge (yet). Like Splat said, freedom of choice.

But then again, like Blurred said, what is "in between" the safe zones.

That crack speaks for itself. Just a bit more weight and it is heading.

We have a long way to go, it is only October, remember that yall.

"If there is enough snow to ski, there is enough snow to slide" - Toby Weed.

Be careful out there and make the right decisions, even if it means tucking you tail and heading somewhere else or out if conditions warrant.

Edit: cololi is the man and he has great points here. Take them to heart.

10-26-2004, 09:38 AM

PNWbrit

10-26-2004, 10:01 AM

I'm sure APD knows his shit and I absolutely don't know the terrain but there seem far too many red flags to be up there alone maybe even to be up there with a partner. Early season (surface bonding and no skier compaction), heavy recent snow, cracking, visible avalanche activity and while it's difficult to tell from the pictures it doesn't look like "safe terrain"

A-wreck

10-26-2004, 10:16 AM

that looks sweet............
I can't wait to be in utah.........

and it sounds to me like you played it safe

Buzzworthy

10-26-2004, 10:17 AM

Irony:

Only 2 people in this thread are familiar with Keyhole's terrain -- APD and cololi, possibly Buzz, but I think that's a hell of a hike for him fro the Tram if he has been thataway.

Terrain is obviously a major factor when it comes to avy mitigation and risk assessment. So before you bash or judge someone for their decision, I'd think you'd want to be familiar with said terrain, eh?

13, please read what I wrote again. No bashing, no judging. Making observations and voicing them from what I have seen here and what I have experienced out there.

No, have not hiked up Keyhole, that is a hell of a hike. But I have been around the mountain quite a bit, so I am not speaking out of my ass (at least not totally).

I am learning.

To me, better safe than sorry.

That being said, I have to somewhat/kinda of/mostly agree with you on being THERE at THAT TIME. But we have pics and they speak a bit for themselves too.

Be safe, with your decisions and your activities.

edit: 13, sorry, I am a bit edgy from the flu right now. A day off work and I am drained instead of being up in the snow. Sucks to take a sick day to be sick, but I was forced too by work. They sent me home early yesterday. Good news is I believe I am done praying to the toilet gods. It was a 48 hour deal, not too bad.

Utards and others, take your vitamins!!!

cololi

10-26-2004, 10:50 AM

I do think that APD has good avie skills, based on what he has posted here in the past. I have no problem with freedom to live and die as you please. I should add that before I was married with kids, I did ski solo in the bc, albeit on low angle stuff. At some point along the line, I realized that not only was I putting myself in danger by skiing solo, I was also running the risk of not being able to be with my loved ones, friends, etc. if something were to happen. I also remember the day that I realized that if something happened to me, if I was injured, buried, etc. I would be putting my rescuers at risk as well. That is where the right to live/die as you want ends, in my opinion.

Huck Finn

10-26-2004, 10:59 AM

"Safety" is only a perception.
What you perceive to be safe does not necessarily jive with what others consider "safe". The perception of safety is largely based on your experience, knowledge of the risks inherent with what you're doing, and your comfort with these risks. Most people wouldn't put their life on the line doing something they considered flat out unsafe or extremely risky.

Some people may consider BASE jumping "safe" enough to participate in, while others may consider it crazy. Generally, someone who is an expert BASE jumper will say "I know how to pack a chute. I have good form in the air and know how to get out of trouble. I know when to pull the chute. I know the risks and I'm OK with that." They perceive this activity as being reasonably safe based on their experience with the sport, their knowledge of what can go wrong and how to avoid it, and their willingness to accept the risks of what can happen if things don't go as planned.

When I started rock climbing, I always considered trad climbing as not being particularly safe. I reasoned there are a lot more variables; a lot more things could go wrong. Your protection isn't always bomber, there isn't always a place to set pro when you'd like there to be, you could set bad pro, multi-pitch introduces all kinds of additional issues, etc. However, as I've come to be more experienced I've realized you can mitigate a lot of the risks with knowledge and experience. Sure, I could do everything right and something could still go horribly wrong, but I understand the risks inherent in the sport and now consider trad an acceptable risk. Am I crazy for getting into trad climbing? Is it not safe? Depends on who you ask.

I guess my point is, don't bag on the guy just because he choses to take a risk you aren't willing to take. He seems to understand what he's getting himself into. He seems to have experience in the field of snow safety, understands the risks and is willing to accept them. If he was a 15 year old who just figured out how sweet powder was and had no training, experience, or idea what he was getting himself into, and went out in the CO backcountry alone, that's one thing, but that doesn’t appear to be the case here. If it were me, yeah, I'd probably want a partner, but I still respect this guy's right to do what the he11 he wants.

Maybe we should shut down terrain parks at resorts because they are not “safe”. After all, people get hurt and killed in terrain parks. :rolleyes:

Blurred

10-26-2004, 11:02 AM

Huck Finn

10-26-2004, 11:12 AM

Trevor was a good man. He solo'd tons of shit, and I'm willing to bet he had more BC experience than anyone on this board.
He was alone, and he died. He left a wife and widowed his kid. Learn from Trevor. RIP amigo.

By the points you made above you would clearly consider a lot of things Trevor Peterson did to be "dumb". I doubt he would really want to hear you spew about your opinions on what is safe, nor would he want you invoking his name to support your opinions.

He accepted the risk of what he did. He lived his life doing what he loved. Is that selfish? The answer to that question is purely an opinion. Don't try to declare your opinion as a fact. Then again, the distinction between opinion and fact seems to elude you 90% of the time.

Blurred

10-26-2004, 11:16 AM

He lived his life doing what he loved. Is that selfish? The answer to that question is purely an opinion.

Having hung out with his son Kye, I'd have to say YES, it was very selfish, dumb, and irresponsible.

edit:bad use of a dumb word

AntiSoCalSkier

10-26-2004, 11:18 AM

I can't believe you guys have turned a stoke thread like this into a flamewar over going solo in the backcountry.

Lame.

Huck Finn

10-26-2004, 11:23 AM

Having hung out with his bastard son Kye, I'd have to say YES, it was very selfish, dumb, and irresponsible.

That is your opinion. Just realize that it is an opinion.
Do you think Kye or his wife blame him for being "selfish, dumb and irresponsible"? I don't know the answer to this, but I doubt either of them fault him for living his life the way he did. Even considering the tragic outcome of his choices.

grizzle6

10-26-2004, 11:25 AM

I can't believe you guys have turned a stoke thread like this into a flamewar over going solo in the backcountry.

Lame.

Agreed. To each his own. Live life.

Buzzworthy

10-26-2004, 11:38 AM

I can't believe you guys have turned a stoke thread like this into a flamewar over going solo in the backcountry.

Lame.

M, maybe some of us dont want to see something happen to our close friends who are up there everyday. If you saw what it is like here......

I would much rather be LAME than learn that something bad happened to a fellow maggot and friend.

Yea, it may suck that this all came out in a TR, but conditions warrant such talk.

I would rather speak up and be shit on than not say anything and someone gets hurt or worse.

Buzz

splat

10-26-2004, 11:45 AM

Trevor was a good man. He solo'd tons of shit, and I'm willing to bet he had more BC experience than anyone on this board.
He was alone, and he died. He left a wife and widowed his kid. Learn from Trevor. RIP amigo.

Trevor was killed by an avie that spilled into the Cosmiques from a side couloir above. A somewhat unpredictable happenstance. Had anyone been with him, they would likely have died as well. Death like that happens every day in Cham. The risk begins when you cross the street on the way to the telepherique.

Zeedashbo

10-26-2004, 02:11 PM

i usually try to have blurred's back, but lately blurred is a useless flamer. way to bring up trevor asswipe.

splat

10-26-2004, 02:44 PM

Ain't no big thang. We are fortunate enough to have a variety of people here to express their diverse opinions and enjoy free speech as well as free choice in the backcountry and elsewhere. If we look at fact and circumstance, it's easy to see how some opinions are formulated, whether we agree or not. Let go, Z, you're bigger than that. Sometimes I can be a dick simply because I'm having a rough day. It's hard to hold our tongues sometimes, but it doesn't hurt to stew down.

Zeedashbo

10-26-2004, 03:03 PM

i would edit it, but that's not me. i'm not totally pissed at blurred, it just seemed a little harsh to bring up the greatest ski mountaineer ever in such a bad way.

Blurred

10-26-2004, 03:14 PM

i would edit it, but that's not me. i'm not totally pissed at blurred, it just seemed a little harsh to bring up the greatest ski mountaineer ever in such a bad way.

Ever lost a friend in an avalanche? Ever been in one?
I brought up Trevor as an example that even if you know A shitload about mountaineering, skiing by yourself is still dumb. Go ahead and be lame and turn this into a Trevor thread. That's a pretty low blow dude.

Mental Square

10-26-2004, 03:19 PM

schiz·o·phre·ni·a ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skts-frn-, -frn-)
n.
1:Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and defects of the frontal lobe and is caused by genetic, other biological, and psychosocial factors.
2:A situation or condition that results from the coexistence of disparate or antagonistic qualities, identities

Zeedashbo

10-26-2004, 03:26 PM

Ever lost a friend in an avalanche? Ever been in one?
I brought up Trevor as an example that even if you know A shitload about mountaineering, skiing by yourself is still dumb. Go ahead and be lame and turn this into a Trevor thread. That's a pretty low blow dude.

i think i have the same question for you as phunk had. i'm pretty sure you turned it into a trevor thread, but i'll let it go. you are right, anybody who skis by themselves are not smart, totally lame, and lack the proper knowledge to go out in the backcountry.

Blurred

10-26-2004, 03:30 PM

i think i have the same question for you as phunk had. i'm pretty sure you turned it into a trevor thread, but i'll let it go. you are right, anybody who skis by themselves are not smart, totally lame, and lack the proper knowledge to go out in the backcountry.

Skiing in the backcountry by yourself is dumb. There, I said it again. Go talk to Ski Patrol, search and rescue or any other group of people who know what the fuck they're talking about. What is so difficult to understand about this???

Zeedashbo

10-26-2004, 03:37 PM

[QUOTE=Zeedashbo] you are right, i don't have the balls to start a total flame war.QUOTE]

......

Blurred

10-26-2004, 03:42 PM

zee, I'm not looking for a flame war, especially with you.

However, condoning unsafe actions in the backcountry is not something I'm going to encourage, even if the flock thinks otherwise. Be safe out there.

nate s

10-26-2004, 03:58 PM

Skiing in the backcountry by yourself is dumb. There, I said it again. Go talk to Ski Patrol, search and rescue or any other group of people who know what the fuck they're talking about. What is so difficult to understand about this???

I'll be sure and tell the patrollers and avy forecastors doing solo work they are dumb next time I see them, thanks.

basom

10-26-2004, 04:01 PM

zing?

......

Blurred

10-26-2004, 04:03 PM

I'll be sure and tell the patrollers and avy forecastors doing solo work they are dumb next time I see them, thanks.

Go ahead and tell their bosses too since that's against their safety standards.

basom

10-26-2004, 04:04 PM

re-zinged?

nate s

10-26-2004, 04:31 PM

Go ahead and tell their bosses too since that's against their safety standards.

Not only is this false, it implies you know the protocol for all avy centers and ski hills, which I am pretty sure you don't.

AltaPowderDaze

10-26-2004, 04:32 PM

Holy Schiat. APD, what's wrong with married ski partners? I am married. I ski almost exclusively in the bc.

i think i was not very clear about the reason i can't ski with my married friends. my married friends are not allowed to ski very often. so if i made plans with them 90% of the time i would be skiing alone because the wife said no and they are not allowed to question what the wife says.

for everyone else,
now to add some fuel to the fire. I sometimes SCUBA dive alone too. flame away.

frozenwater

10-26-2004, 04:38 PM

I'm thinking of driving home tonight over teton pass. Problem is it snowed an inch or so.

Think I should wait until I can find someone to follow me over the pass? Should I turn my beacon on?

AltaPowderDaze

10-26-2004, 04:43 PM

Buzzworthy

10-26-2004, 04:59 PM

I'm thinking of driving home tonight over teton pass. Problem is it snowed an inch or so.

Think I should wait until I can find someone to follow me over the pass? Should I turn my beacon on?

ha, you kidder you!!

You don't own a beacon! Liar Liar Pants on Fire.

If you have someone follow you, make it to the safe zone completely and then and only then signal your partner.

That inch may slide; how is the base, have you dug a pit to check?

Be careful out there.

Shit, we were just concerned for our friends. No more. "You go first across there" in now my motto exclusively. Or go by yourself, my wife won't let me go. :rolleyes:

skibe

10-26-2004, 05:00 PM

i think i was not very clear about the reason i can't ski with my married friends. my married friends are not allowed to ski very often. so if i made plans with them 90% of the time i would be skiing alone because the wife said no and they are not allowed to question what the wife says.

Your friends need to allow a little more time for their balls to drop before they get married apparently ;) .
With that being said thanks a ton for all the stoke you've been passing along the past couple weeks. The trip reports you share show a good knowledge of the bc and I think it is sweet that you are getting after it and being safe. That is all.

AltaPowderDaze

10-26-2004, 05:08 PM

yeah, they get married young around here. real young.

as for todays TR, gramps has that and will post later. here's a few parting shots to hold everyone over till then.

10-26-04
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28820.jpg
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic28819.jpg

Eldo

10-26-2004, 05:32 PM

i think i was not very clear about the reason i can't ski with my married friends. my married friends are not allowed to ski very often. so if i made plans with them 90% of the time i would be skiing alone...

So, find some new friends who DO ski.

I don't mean to be flip about it, because I faced the same situation. All my former BC ski buddies got too busy with jobs, family, etc, to go skiing much anymore. But for many years I kept trying to drag them out, and mostly ended up going solo. After finally realizing that nothing was going to change (or could change) with their situations, I decided to find new people to ski with.

Now I am reminded that even though I could go solo, it is always way more fun going with other people. :)

10-26-2004, 05:43 PM

yeah, they get married young around here. real young.

as for todays TR, gramps has that and will post later. here's a few parting shots to hold everyone over till then.

Tease.

I for one am glad there is a Utard that is finally packing a camera. We can actually see what Xover is raving and foaming at the mouth about. Thanks for keeping us sane man.

gramps

10-26-2004, 05:44 PM

I'm stuck on campus until later tonight, but APD got some decent skiing shots, so it'll be tasty.

AltaPowderDaze

10-26-2004, 05:51 PM

to hopefully close this topic, i will say that while i appreciate some of the concern i am reading. i have a fairly open offer for touring partners, but i will not stop doing what i enjoy when i deem it to be safe. i prefer to ski rather than debate backcountry travel practice with some who are unfamiliar with the subject matter. i know what worst case scenarios are and take precautions against them. i am also aware of those who have passed before. those who have toured with me in the past, either from this board or not, can attest to my approach to safety relative to the conditions. just because danger exists in the mountains doesn't mean that you cannot safely travel alone in the bc. the obvious danger that day existed on the E, N and NE aspects. i was on the west. that is just another example of why i was not concerned on that day. i was never on a debate team in high school, so i will close by saying thank you for some of the opinions. i hope this issue is settled.

edit: good call eldo. like i said, the offer is pretty much open.

shamrockpow

10-26-2004, 05:52 PM

Ahhh - the annual debate.
"Skiing backcountry alone? You're nuts!"
"No way, I knew what I was doing and took a managable risk"
"Oh yea, this guy was super-rad and he DIED"
"..."

Everybody is gonna have their own view on this. Obviously it would be better if APD was up there with somebody (sounds like you did drag someone up today), but knowing the snowpack and the specific area very well (having been there a bunch myself after heavy snows I didn't flinch reading the TR at first), having skied similar slopes the last few days, digging pits, and taking a very safe route to get up there all factor in to the willingness of APD to risk what he has.

The whole arguement to me sounds sort of like wearing a helmet when you're biking. Am I gonna make you wear it every single time you get out there? No, I'm not your mom or your girlfriend. But it would be pretty dumb not to take some simple safety precautions...

gramps

10-26-2004, 05:58 PM

Oh, and as for the ongoing conversation about going by yourself... it definitely eliminates a safety margin (i.e., if you get hurt or buried, there might not be anyone around to know about it or help you.) However, it's just reason to be extra careful, not to completely reject the practice. With the proper knowledge, it's really not such a terrible thing. I think some (not all) of the people who are giving APD such a hard time are straight out of their first avy class and heard in that class that going out by yourself sends you straight to hell. (and that's excellent advice for new BC skiers - never go alone). But after amassing a certain amount of experience, one can know what they want to risk, and what's relatively safe (all safety is relative) versus russian roulette. Having skied with APD a few times now, I know he knew what he was doing and skied carefully. End of the story in my mind.

Max Gosey

10-26-2004, 10:43 PM

Deep, light stuff? Check.

Not even effing November yet? Check.

Skier is from Baton Rouge and tearing up? Cheeeeck.

Nice APD. Mucho muy very nice.

Huck Finn

10-27-2004, 08:33 AM

AltaPowderDaze

10-27-2004, 04:22 PM

So when does skiing a resort count as backcountry??? :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: The fucking moron has been throwing up spew for the past week about how "RAD" he and his buddies are for ripping the gnar at Alta and claiming to be the know all of the backcountry gapers. Beat it Altapowderpoofter. Step in to the real backcountry ring and then we'll see what you are made of. You have yet to explain your reasoning behind solo "backcountry" ski trips and how it is safe to you and others. Once you give me a viable reasoning I will leave your sorry ass alone. Otherwise, quit posting lame ass shit every day. We don't need a resort report every single frickin' day.

sounds like the part of you that got the brains ran down your mom's crack :tdo13:. it's lame that you can criticize someone for doing something that you obviously do not understand. example: a resort is backcountry until it is avy controlled, skier compacted and the lifts are running. it sounds like you want to hear some sort of a backcounrty resume before you will accept my decisions. my question for you is what type of bc skiing do you do? how many bc days do you get a year? how many days have you been out this year evaluating the exact same snowpack i have since the snow has been falling? do you even ski? btw, just cause you may be able make it down a double black diamond tree run on your yearly trip to colorado doesn't count as bc experience.

TR's are clearly marked with who has posted them. treat them like an annoying political thread and don't open them. who forced you to look? who asked for your asinine half-witted opinions? i surely didn't.

i will not give you a "viable reasoning" for my bc practices. you are clearly not going to understand any answer given. enjoy your late 80's warren miller flicks and keep your comments to something you understand. i'll even start a barney thread for you.

some of you have voiced real concerns and i do appreciate it. others need to learn some tact. anyone venturing into the bc should adopt principles and stick to them. my principles will be different than those of a married person or a less competent tourer. remember that groups larger than 3 often get a group safety mindset that if left unchecked can lead to dire consequences.

for those who came here looking for stoke, i am sorry. i hope people like this don't ruin it for you in the future.

Summit

10-27-2004, 11:48 PM

Stokerific pictures!

it is not like a crap shoot where you are blindly playing the odds. you learn as much about the conditions as you can before you go and you gain emperical data as you climb. the up route i took is near avalanche free. i dug 3 representative pits along the way and slope cut the chute. i traveled from safe zone to safe zone so i could check the conditions as the aspect and elevation changed. i felt very confident of the conditions or i would have skinned/booted back out.

Yes this is about free choice and he should most certainly have the choice (I'm against any closure of anything public unless someone is blasting), but I think his risk/consequence assesment underestimates.

Fire and water... and this thread is where it is and you brought it up...
If this were a SCUBA forum people would be flaming you for solo diving. The only "safe solo" dive is with a primary and a standby both tethered with tenders and probably UW comms!

The water doesn't know how confident you feel. Water doesn't know how well experienced and educated you are. The water doesn't care that you are a local. Now replace "water" with "avalanche" or "backcountry" and reread.

Three representative snow pits... and you think that's enough to account 100% for spatial variability? A ski cut at the top may not trigger when hitting the right weak spot in the middle could. Ever seen the Swiss study that showed 18% of R-6 and 13% of R-7 tested slopes can still be skier triggered? As Blurred said, what's between the safe zones? Does that mean you shouldn't ever ski? No. It means that you can try to measure the risk but there is still chance.

And the rest of the post is not at any one person in particular but on solo skiing in...

And who would save you if something did happen? An extra person could be more dangerous? Sure. Don't take an untrained idiot. Are people acutally suggesting that they would rather be buried solo than having the partner possibility of someone looking for them or going to get help???

Remember: When you are alone a beacon is nothing more than an fancy expensive corpse locator! (please still wear one though... probe lines suck).

Hell, even the resorts put up signs telling guests to take a partner to ski certain patrolled areas!!! Why? Because it's safer and smart!

Do solo people really have less accidents? I wanna see those stats. This is about risk mitigation sure and things are relative. You can go solo on 15deg consolidated corn and it might be safer than three people skiing and unstable 40deg chute. The relativity of safety argument is dumb. The solo skier can still die from an accident that wouldn't have killed people in the three person group.

Like I was saying, the risk evaluation seems off. Some things to consider when solo skiing:

A lot more can happen besides a slide (and there were a lot of avalanche red flags in this case). Bindings can bust in waist deep snow, you could lose your skis, you could get lost, buried headplant a treewell (like Bullet), weather could move in, you could bust a knee, break a leg, hit a tree, or otherwise injure incapacitate or strand yourself, etc etc etc.

With no buddy to help you or go for help what will you do? Will you have any way to call for rescue? Whistle/Signal Mirror/Smoke/Flares? Will anyone see/hear? Are you in cell range (are you sure? 100% of the time? is the battery working?) Do you have a HAM HT? Are you in repeater range? Is anybody listening? Do you have a satellite phone?

Will your rescue come when you are reported overdue by whomever you left your itinerary with calls dispatch? (I assume you left instructions)

What will the response time be to confirm you are missing? Will SAR even come to look for you? Will the weather and light allow for that? How long will that take? How big is the area they must search? Has blowing snow filled in your tracks? Is the area snowmobile accessable? How long will it take? Will you be able to survive that long with whats in your pack (did you consider this when packing)? The night? 2 Days? In a potentially injured state? (or are you already a corpsicle?)

I've been on an avalanche recovery mission. I've seen the results up close. Ever seen the look on the face of the friends/family of the victim?

I hope to God I never have to dig someone I cared about out of a slide.

Blurred

10-27-2004, 11:58 PM

Well, there you have it folks. Quit being stupid, naive, and think about what you're doing.

When it's GAME OVER, that's it. No retries, gimmees, mulligans or do-overs. This is life, you get only one. Be smart, be safe.

AltaPowderDaze

10-28-2004, 06:31 AM

thanks for taking the time to post summit. i agree with most of what you are saying. i do not advocate solo skiing but think it should be an option for those that can mitigate the dangers and accept the consequences. as for diving, i do carry a backup 15 min bottle and am never far from shore. also i am at high tide with the currents minimal. in the last 5 years, solo diving is now a somewhat accepted practices that ssi now certifies for.

with skiing, i know the area well and have skied it many times. several people knew my plan and my backup. there were also some lifties that i knew from last year at the top of wildcat loading chairs. i do take a chance that is never 100%. i try to mitigate the circumstances and minimalize both the risk and consequences. nothing with regard to avalanche and safety is 100% and people should know that. i do not go out solo on days that would put a rescue team in danger. if a slide caught me, it would likely be localized and no longer threaten the sar teams. on days where things do get dangerous as the day goes, i change my travel practice and usually ski down a similar way that i came up. i am not too bull headed to turn around. i have done it on many sketch line, whether alone or with someone.

i'm sure i didn't address everything but atleast provided some insight to what i'm talking about. summit, i do find you post well written and in good taste. that said, than you for posting it.

edit to change a letter.

skinnyskier

10-28-2004, 06:44 AM

It's all relative, right?

Skinning up Grizzly Gulch solo for a little post-Alta pre-beer workout=pretty safe.
Skiing Tanners solo just after a big snow and wind event=kinda risky.
The UAFC forecasters and observers go out solo from time to time, anyway.

You can balance conditions, exerience and route and come up with a reasonable decision for yourself. I usually don't do anything scarier than Grizzly solo under Utah winter conditions, but I wouldn't tell someone not to.

Trackhead

10-28-2004, 07:09 AM

Funny, a four page thread on solo adventure. I'm going out solo again today, for the fifth day this year. Five days solo, one with Stoy. Toby Weed, the avy forecaster up here, was out solo yesterday. He was with us, then he bailed and went solo. We all soloed back to our cars at different times yesterday.

I would bet that groups of people in the BC risk their lives far more than a conservative soloist. Groups give a false sense of security. You can get caught in a slide and die of head or neck trauma just as easy in a group as solo. A group of knowledgeble, moderately testosterone riddled males is far more dangerous than a conservative, knowledgeable, moderately testosterone riddled soloist.

You want to see someone crazy, check out Dean Potter as he solos 5,000 foot Patagonia routes, solos Half Dome, etc. He's crazy. But you rarely see a four page thread about soloing in the climbing community.
http://user.chollian.net/~macware1/m10/solo.jpg

Spamhelmet

10-28-2004, 07:28 AM

Good posts here.

It is funny how different sports semms to dictate differently when one is
allowed to "go solo".

Backpacking,scuba,climbing,skiing..

One that goes climbing solo in kaukasus, are consired by his circle as an
dedicated,carefull,professional,groundbreaker.
Yet the risks he takes are greater or equal to the ones that go skiing
or diving.
Often the risk factor is decided and dictated by the circle of people with
lesser experience,aducative individuals and/or with the westernized safetyculture point of view.
When people gather enough experience along the way, they usually go
solo eventuall, if their viewing of personal safety allows it.
Usually the person then possesses the neccessary abilites to cope with the decision to go solo,have the necessary skills to handle the the accident/incident to the best of his abilities and has made it clear to her/himself what the consequenses might be in the worst case.

Also a intresting point seems to be the cultural difference between the new world/old one on the behalf of personal responcibilites.
Here on the old continent it seems that people are a bit more ready to
give the responsibilites of one´s actions to the one itself, instead of pampering.

As practicing most of the hobbies mentioned on this thread, and doing some of them solo regulary, it is indeed quite intresting subject.[academic voice]

On the behalf of this thread, nice pictures,nice TR and please continue posting more stuff, duder.

And keep it safe.

Ireallyliketoski

10-28-2004, 01:04 PM

You want to see someone crazy, check out Dean Potter as he solos 5,000 foot Patagonia routes, solos Half Dome, etc. He's crazy. But you rarely see a four page thread about soloing in the climbing community.
http://user.chollian.net/~macware1/m10/solo.jpg

Good point, unless you're on rockclimbing.com, there's a to solo or not to solo 15 page thread every week there, which can be summed up by solo if you want to, if you don't that's fine too.

Other good point is the group mentality, I think the group does provide a false sense of security, I definitely take more risks when skiing in a group, mainly because when I ski solo I'm on terrain with low avalanche danger, I do more touring than skiing when solo, but in a group I'll ski some lines that I wouldn't ski if I were alone. I think beacons provide a sense of false security as well, oh let's smoke it, we have beacons, I've heard that sentiment from groups in the bc. This combined with the proliferation of backcountry skiing in general could lead to dire consequences.

Villiage Idiot

10-28-2004, 01:40 PM

You can get caught in a slide and die of head or neck trauma just as easy in a group as solo.
I like people who always simplify everything to extremes. They always DIE in their arguments to end them. I know that if I do something like break my leg, I rather be solo than have any stupid friends in my group who might hurt themselves trying to help me!

A group of knowledgeble, moderately testosterone riddled males is far more dangerous than a conservative, knowledgeable, moderately testosterone riddled soloist.

What about comparing apples to apples? What about a group of conservative knowledgable moderatly testosterone males? :tdo13:

Good point, unless you're on rockclimbing.com, there's a to solo or not to solo 15 page thread every week there, which can be summed up by solo if you want to, if you don't that's fine too.
I heard they encourage people to go out like that Aaron Ralston guy doing dangerous shit with no preparations so you too can have the privelage of cutting off your own arm with a dull knife.

Other good point is the group mentality, I think the group does provide a false sense of security, I definitely take more risks when skiing in a group, mainly because when I ski solo I'm on terrain with low avalanche danger, I do more touring than skiing when solo, but in a group I'll ski some lines that I wouldn't ski if I were alone. I think beacons provide a sense of false security as well, oh let's smoke it, we have beacons, I've heard that sentiment from groups in the bc. This combined with the proliferation of backcountry skiing in general could lead to dire consequences.

Clearly its safer to not have any backup because other groups have stupid people in them. The logic is brilliant! Always assume when you choose a group of your friends that your friends are DUMBASSES. Clearly solo is the way to go!

Beacons definately encourage risky activity! I think I'd drive faster if I had a modern car with such speed encouraging features as antilock brakes, crumple zones, airbags and seatbelts. That is why I drive this:

http://www.baileycar.com/ford%20model%20t%201920.jpg

It's much safer highway!

Ireallyliketoski

10-28-2004, 01:53 PM

I like people who always simplify everything to extremes. They always DIE in their arguments to end them. I know that if I do something like break my leg, I rather be solo than have any stupid friends in my group who might hurt themselves trying to help me!

What about comparing apples to apples? What about a group of conservative knowledgable moderatly testosterone males? :tdo13:

I heard they encourage people to go out like that Aaron Ralston guy doing dangerous shit with no preparations so you too can have the privelage of cutting off your own arm with a dull knife.

Clearly its safer to not have any backup because other groups have stupid people in them. The logic is brilliant! Always assume when you choose a group of your friends that your friends are DUMBASSES. Clearly solo is the way to go!

Beacons definately encourage risky activity! I think I'd drive faster if I had a modern car with such speed encouraging features as antilock brakes, crumple zones, airbags and seatbelts. That is why I drive this:

http://www.baileycar.com/ford%20model%20t%201920.jpg

It's much safer highway!

:D :D :D
She's a sweet ride.
Is that your orthodpedic pillow on the passenger seat?