mid-season Bandit Launch [Archive] - Teton Gravity Research Forums

powderhound

10-27-2004, 07:52 PM

Here's what I got from a friend a while back (I edited the supersecret stuff out) after some speculation about the B4:

I went to our Rossi clinic the other night. The B4 is not a myth. It is actually the old B3, now called the B4. It is not new. But what is new, is the new B3. What they've done is made a B2.5. The dimensions of this ski is somewhere in between the old B2 and B3. Rossi felt that the dimensional difference between the 2 and 3 was to great. So they made something that would fit in between. By doing this, they had to make the old B3 the new B4, and the new B2.5 the new B3. These won't be out till January, I think.

Are you confused yet?

Jumper Bones

10-27-2004, 10:03 PM

If people are stoked on the XXXX, then why does Rossi give them more of the same? They had an opportunity to release a superfat of their own that already has a sizeable buzz behind it (unlike Kahuna/Maiden, or Tabla Rasa, or like the Prophet), that people want.

Suitable course of action - B5, I guess.

I'd wondered why the telemark T4 was the equivalent of the B3...that made no sense, unless the T1 is the old Rebel...

phUnk

10-27-2004, 10:28 PM

#1: All this "insider information" is, so far, nothing but new names and those don't mean shit. Somebody give us some numbers already.

#2: Rossi doesn't make a B4 (meaning a 100-ish mm Bandit) for the public because the current B4 (which only pros have) is race room. I wonder if the dualtec construction wouldn't hold up for a wider ski like that? I wouldn't be surprised. They don' call it dualcrap, dualcrack and dualcrush for nothing.

Also, who is "stoked on the XXXX" ? A bunch of wankers (myself certainly included) in an internet chatroom. That's not a market

powderhound

10-27-2004, 10:52 PM

I wonder if the dualtec construction wouldn't hold up for a wider ski like that?

not unless you get the longest board with the extra weight, i mean metal in it :rolleyes2

splat

10-27-2004, 11:39 PM

I noticed another company (Atomic?) has a B5.
I think Rossi might do better with a C4 -
It'd be like an Explosive, only wider.
:fmicon:

Jumper Bones

10-28-2004, 01:28 AM

Also, who is "stoked on the XXXX" ? A bunch of wankers (myself certainly included) in an internet chatroom. That's not a market

Oh, come on. You KNOW there are more people out there than just in this board who would buy that level of equipment. It wasn't maggots alone that had Volkl selling out of its stock of Gotamas already, K2 its 189 Pistols, maggots alone buying the Spatulas, Iggies, etc. There is a sizeable and quite competent group of skiers out there that eats that equipment right up.

10-28-2004, 05:18 AM

azzure

10-28-2004, 06:27 AM

Yeah, I'd have to agree with phunk on this one. Skis like the monster im103 are burley big mountain boards (similar to the XXXX) but don't seem to sell all that well. Just take a look online or hit a major resort shop and you'll see tons of them at great prices with no takers. Heck, even REI had problems selling all 194 B3's last year, so a true B4 would be even more difficult to sell.

cj001f

10-28-2004, 07:17 AM

It wasn't maggots alone that had Volkl selling out of its stock of Gotamas already, K2 its 189 Pistols, maggots alone buying the Spatulas, Iggies, etc.
And how big were the production runs of 189 Pistols, Gotamas, Spatulas? Judging by most of the shop I've been to none of the above were "great" sellers - like most skis they finally sold out at the end of the season with typical end of season discounts. Maybe the shops and mfrs wised up and made less this year to improve the margin.

phUnk

10-28-2004, 02:04 PM

Oh, come on. You KNOW there are more people out there than just in this board who would buy that level of equipment. It wasn't maggots alone that had Volkl selling out of its stock of Gotamas already, K2 its 189 Pistols, maggots alone buying the Spatulas, Iggies, etc. There is a sizeable and quite competent group of skiers out there that eats that equipment right up.
Gotamas & Pistols: Semi-soft, easy to ski & maximum size = 190ish minus the twinned tail.
Spatulas: Not long, stiff & ultra-demanding like a XXXX. Also, a money-loser.
Iggies: Not limited to only XXXX type skis. Also, they went out of business once.

Sure, a bunch of Maggots & the crew we usually ski with might like XXXX's. But, I maintain that there is not a sizeable group that would like the XXXX as it currently exists. It's a very long, fat & stiff ski. Stiff enough that it doesn't float in pow as well as you'd think, according to a local Rossi pro / AK veteran.

Bandit Man

10-28-2004, 04:38 PM

I'm going to have to agree with PhUnk on this one...For some reason, skis like the PR sell out before Christmas at $600+ for many seasons in a row. Yet, as has been mentioned, Monster 103's and Big Stix 10.6' can be found a-plenty for near cost. Despite the concentration of truly Bad-Ass skiers, in places like this, the market for a true B4 has got to be minute.

I've always been curious why Volkl made it's mass-offered (or perhaps not so many en-mass) 100+ boards (Gotama) soft and twinned. People love 'em...like a PR on steroids they say...but it still isn't a 100+ V-Ex. And even at 190, with the twin, it isn't that long of a ski. And what about the G4? It has now been replaced by another twin, with a bit more sidecut, no laminate. Sounds like the Volkl version of the PR, but without robot graphics to make it so obvious.

I think companies are dancing on the line of stroking the ego of skiers with "skiable" gear, while continuing to promote to th consumer that the gear they are selling is purely for the skilled and elite (ie - "big mountain/pro level skis"). Hey, I'm buying into it too...but when it comes to a mass-marketed factor-team B4, it'll never fly.

Jumper Bones

10-28-2004, 05:08 PM

When I had mentioned the Seth Pistol and Gotama as examples, I had meant this season's models, and not the previous ones. In each case, the models were stiffened up considerably. The reputations that you are mentioning of them being easy-to-ski, the masses can handle it, etc, were based off of those previous models, which were extremely soft and flexible.

With both of them, once the word got out that they'd finally grown a backbone, their sales (at least at the pro-form and shop level) have increased massively, to the point of their longest and stiffest models are the ones that have sold out.

Yes, previous models didn't sell as well, and could be found on wholesale lots all over the place. It will be interesting to see how the SP and Goat do at retail this year.

Good point on the Fischer 106 and iM103, but I would say in return that these companies don't market very much at all, and rely on word-of-mouth. They don't have the legendary status or rep that Volkl and K2 have (kind of like the big 3 car companies in America - sure there's others, but the ones with the biggest status out there are the big 3).

hmm...I'm having trouble finding the exact words for my argument here, sorry if things don't make much sense.

And yes Iggy went out of business...but they were trying to do the impossible - have a limited-production, limited-edition ski, for a mass-produced retail price. That isn't possible, and they found that out the hard way. That's why their prices for the same product are what they are today.

Bandit Man

10-28-2004, 05:57 PM

With both of them, once the word got out that they'd finally grown a backbone, their sales (at least at the pro-form and shop level) have increased massively, to the point of their longest and stiffest models are the ones that have sold out.

Yes, previous models didn't sell as well, and could be found on wholesale lots all over the place. It will be interesting to see how the SP and Goat do at retail this year.

Good point, JB. I guess what I was attempting to articulate is that ski companies are starting softer and then testing the market to see how skis can be improved. I mean how many of us owned a pair of Blue Noodles at one point? So we bag on the PR, and a few years later Sallie makes a limited number of AK Rocket Labs and we bitch about the cost. It still doesn't change the fact that all the while, they are still selling large numbers of PR's to Joe-Skier, who never even thinks twice about engaging in ski gear banter with his peers. Joe skier doesn't care that they're soft...he just likes they way he skis on them.

And then you have the Maggots...We love stiff, long skis with little sidecut. This type of ski is in in direct conflict with what pleases Joe Skier, and since his type accounts for the larger majority, we lose. Slightly stiffer Got's and SP's are nice, but can clearly be labeled as a compromise between skis liked the Maggots and those sought afte by Joe Skier.

I mean, cummon...it's not like Volkl added 10-mm to the girth of the V-Ex and called it perfect...Now I'm rambling...

splat

10-29-2004, 06:39 PM

There is a shop (http://www.oslosportslager.no/) in Oslo, Norway, that has a pair of the raceroom B4,XXXX or what you like to call it. And they only want like 2000 usd. for them!
The text on their website translates: "Rossignol B4. Only two pairs in Norway, and we`ve got one of them. If you are more than dedicated (?), and have 2000 usd (15000 norwegian kroners) burning a hole in your pocket, you may call us.
Length:195
Radius: Good and wide
measurements:Unknown"

Oh, and they are also asking around 1100 usd for a pair of Spatulas, worst part is that there are enough wannabes that probably are willing to drop that kind of doh only to be able to look cool in Hemsedal (Norways equivalent of Aspen)....

Then you and mbs are gonna be bummed to hear that TeleRob just bagged a pair of 193 or 196 Hugo team rider 4X's from Natty for less than half of that.

Some pretty good opinions expressed here about the feasibility and demand for a B4 type ski. And interesting because, when you lay a Bro Model edge to edge and base to base with these Hugos, the dimensions are quite similar. But the those Rossis are some really stiff mofos.

dude_le_skibum

10-30-2004, 07:22 AM

the b4 exists. i have one in my hands now .
i mesured it for you 132-100-125
my boss rode it all summer in SA.
dreamlike

snorkeldeep

10-30-2004, 07:57 AM

i think its partially a question of ability, and also partially a question of preference. sure, there are a lot of people who want them just to say theyre on the team board, but shouldnt be skiing on something so stiff. For me, im just so freakin tall i torque the crap out of anything im on.. hence my preference for stiffer skis.

the first time i saw XXXXs was probably 5 years ago in whistler, and they looked ginormous at the time (certainly helped the awe factor that dan treadway was skiing them), but there are large stiff boards available to the general public now (iggys, db). i tend to agree with phunk - the market isnt really there. However since their not set up to be mass produced anyways, i think it would be cool for rossi/salomon etc. to do a custom version of the b4, ak lab, etc that is the team board at a price in line with its "race-room" construction and one or ten-off requests if thats actually whats happening. If people want to pay for them, let them.

phattypowpow

10-30-2004, 05:59 PM

dude-le,

Thanks for the B4 beta but those dimensions look like a Scratch BC with an extra 10 mm at the tip/waist/tail. Is it really part of the Bandit liine? Any chance that it will be a mid-season release this year?

wizard604

10-30-2004, 06:08 PM

the b4 exists. i have one in my hands now .
i mesured it for you 132-100-125

That's a lot more sidecut than the present B3. I wonder what the dimensions will be for the new B3? I have this year's B3's all mounted up and ready for action, a 95 waist is still pretty decent

optics

10-30-2004, 06:36 PM

And yes Iggy went out of business...but they were trying to do the impossible - have a limited-production, limited-edition ski, for a mass-produced retail price. That isn't possible, and they found that out the hard way. That's why their prices for the same product are what they are today.

And there's the crux.

A small company with a specific specialty product focus needs to price to allow for a profit margin based on what it costs to make the ski. Iggy can clear a profit on their boards (if they sell) because that's their focus, they're not a distraction from their main line.

A large company which is otherwise pumping out mass numbers of consumer skis needs to pay the same direct overhead, but also has to account for the lost potential revenue they would otherwise have collected producing the mass-market skis.

If it cost salomon $300 to make a race room ski, but the time/resources associated with making that ski would otherwise have produced 10 PRs with a huge margin, they would need to price the race room boards to compensate - in order for it to be a feasible product. It wouldn't fly.

I would think making race room/pro boards is considered a brand marketing expense as much as anything. They make no money on them, they just get the name out in the right places. Their margin can't be anywhere near what it is for the broad market lines.

splat

10-30-2004, 07:53 PM

the b4 exists. i have one in my hands now .
i mesured it for you 132-100-125
my boss rode it all summer in SA.
dreamlike

A lil more tip than the Bro...

Hey, you wanna hook up in Whistler this season?

natty dread

10-30-2004, 10:08 PM

Sure, a bunch of Maggots & the crew we usually ski with might like XXXX's. But, I maintain that there is not a sizeable group that would like the XXXX as it currently exists. It's a very long, fat & stiff ski. Stiff enough that it doesn't float in pow as well as you'd think, according to a local Rossi pro / AK veteran.

Yeah the maggot crew MIGHT like them. Some of the crew. Maybe.
Having owned the 196 xxxx, I concur with phUnk's assessment. The things are frickin beasts, by far the stiffest ski I've ever seen, stiffer than the M103 or 260 iggies and they make my W105s feel like noodles in comparison. Not very versatile at all--which is prolly the reason many rossi pro riders (like gordy, mcreynolds, grom at alta at least) ski mostly on production B3s. The XXXX is WAY too much ski for most people imo. And I like stiff skis.

Yeah Splat, I remember how similar the dimensions of the bro and the XXXX were--they were almost identical. Although even the stiffest bro proto we built was quite a bit softer.

Guess I undercharged you rob. You can repay me in beers and stashes when I see you in tahoe. ;) :D

laseranimal

10-31-2004, 03:25 PM

there is a market for stiff skis there isn't a market for stiff fat skis. How many gapers out there went out and paid more then full retail for a pair of 6 Stars last year? The masses are slow to adapt, how many people ski enough different types of skis to be able to actually tell what it is that they want in a ski. Most people simply walk up to the Ski Mart in their town and ask the 16 year old shop monkey "what should I be skiing on" and they tell em that they should definately be on a ski like the B1 or maybe the B2 if they're more of a "off-piste" skier. I started skiing more often about 4 years ago, up until that time I skiied with my family one week a year, now I push 40-50 days a year. My first pair of skis that I ever had input into buying were a pair of Volkl G3's that I got because the shop I went to didn't carry the Dynastar Skicross 66's that I'd demoed the year before. The shop owner laid out skis that he thought would be good picks for me, I had the choice between the Volkl, a Bandit X, the Bandit XX, and a Volant. It was only because of a miracle that I picked the Volkl, I had never heard of the company, as a kid I'd always skiied on Dynastar and Rossi with the odd K2 thrown in for one or two seasons.

Point being, the G3 was considered a mid fat at the time, in fact it was probably one of the fattest of the mid fats that you could buy. People simply refused to belive that you could get all around performance from a fat ski. I would bet you could probably have counted the number of 90+ waisted boards on one hand that year. Now, for this year you have the Big Daddy, Sugar Daddy Pimp, Sugar Daddy, Titan XXL, Legend Pro, Big Stix 10.6, Monster 103, Apache Chief, Mad'en'AK, Seth Pistol, Phat Luv, Beast, B3, Scratch BC, Pocket Rocket, Stormrider DP, Stormrider Scott Schmidt, Gotama, and last but not least the venerable Explosive. Thats 20 different models of fat skis from just the major players, that doesn't count the little guys like Iggies, DB, Phantom, or the Bro models. The average waist for a mid fat is now knocking on the door of 80+ whereas when I was in that shop the Bandit XX was considered portly for the category. The last few years have been all about making skis shorter fatter and softer so that more people can ski them. Its all about ski companies pushing a trend, unfortunatly for fans of long stiff fat skis the offerings are going to get smaller and smaller I fear :(

Bandit Man

10-31-2004, 04:16 PM

there is a market for stiff skis there isn't a market for stiff fat skis.
The last few years have been all about making skis shorter fatter and softer so that more people can ski them.

Laser, you made me think about my not so fat R:EX's with that statement. When they first came out, they were made in 198, 191 and 184 lengths. I bought the 191, as I thought the 184 was the for the ladies. After a season of struggling to keep up on them, I sold them and bought the 184's, which I have loved and mastered (as least in my own mind) over the past three seasons. Anyhow, to tie my point in with yours, the current variant of that ski, the M:EX, comes in a 185 as the longest length...hmm?

Okay. my apologies for the diversion. Back to the "I wanna ski a XXXX, cuz Hugo ain't got nothin' on me..." thread.

BakerBoy

11-01-2004, 03:58 AM

Anybody want my 198cm 10.ex's for $50 shipped? Otherwise, they are going to be part of a chair... They suck that much.

But I would easily contribute that to the construction rather thaan Atomics ability to build a ski, other than the fact that most people I know (enjoy, rather, and ski much bettter on) a fatter, damper ski.

*10 min to tp.. I quit

vinnay

01-05-2005, 01:41 PM

i think this is a really good point. we totally give dyna and stockli a ton of cred for offering skis like this, and that translates to the good skiers at many mountains on their sticks= good unpaid publicity. when you see someone ripping you always check out what hes on, i do.

salomon at least lets their s labs get out, you can get those 191 s lab extras on ebay now. rossi doesnt even let you see them, makes us sit around and talk about the like 3 pair in existence.

the_eleven

01-05-2005, 02:00 PM

I have had the Hugo XXXX in hand, and let me tell you, it is stiffer than an Explosiv. It is stiffer than team M-103's.

Never got to ski them, and can't understand who would need them, unless you are Hugo.

Now a softer (relative to how stiff it is now) ski in that length and shape (basically same as an Explosiv only wider) and construction, would be killer.

I agree with the idea of having it be a special order item.

if Igneous, and DB can make it happen with special order skis, why not the larger companies???

vinnay

01-05-2005, 02:17 PM

yeah agreed. rossi should become badass again and start making its skis stiff.
is the xxxx a wood core ski or is it foam with a ton of metal??

vinnay

01-05-2005, 07:20 PM

are they basically axioms??

Hollywood

01-06-2005, 09:12 PM

I skied on the new B3 yesterday in a 184 length. Dimensions are 120-83. Theyre orange with a silver tail. They ski really well on the groomers, but we didn't have any soft stuff out here to really get them off trail. They held pretty well on the hard stuff though. The B4 is green.

vinnay

01-07-2005, 10:51 AM

did they look any different in terms of construction? im still kinda confused on the whole bandit line up change.

vinnay

01-08-2005, 05:08 PM

bump for more info from hollywood...just a wider b2??

TJ.Brk

01-13-2005, 12:58 PM

We skied the new bandit lines. The B4 is sandwich construction, the B2, B3 are cap. Everybody felt the B4's were way behind the SV's, 999's, Outlaw,and Monster Mojo.

Granted we didn't have 2 feet of pow to take them on, but everyone agreed that they were alot of work compared to the others.

vinnay

01-13-2005, 01:24 PM

does sandwhich mean they are woodcore, while b2b3 are still foam?
also out of curiousity howd the b3 feel?

Meathelmet

01-13-2005, 01:28 PM

It is stiffer than team M-103's.

There should not be a thing called "Team M-103´s".

The 2 teamriders that i have spoken too have the normal production line
skis.

Rumour is that next years im103 should be reddish and twintipped.
Baybe Mr.TJBurke was refering to that with the "Monster Mojo"???

How was it?
Was it still in the humanoid length of 183 or only the superstar length?

PS. LOK: What kind of snowsituation is it in the Lyngen at the moment??

Professor

01-13-2005, 01:46 PM

The first run of 103s were really only available in limited quantities and mostly for team riders. Since then, my understanding is there was no difference in what was sent to sponsored riders and what was on the wall. With that ski you really wouldnt want something more unless you only ski heliserved. Just my $.02...

TJ.Brk

01-14-2005, 11:54 AM

Head skis new dimension monsters
http://www.picvault.info/images/31029_skitest.2 003.jpg

06 Rossi's
http://www.picvault.info/images/31011_skitest.2 002.jpg

Son1cdeth

01-14-2005, 12:16 PM

Ok TJ. Can make sure I'm straight? this thread has so much info it's hard to keep it together.

B2 - Same dimensions as current B2. Same construction? Just a different topsheet / graphic.

B3 - (2.5) All new.

B4 - (old b3) Same dimensions as current B3. Same construction? Just a different topsheet / graphic.

correct?

Big E

01-14-2005, 12:54 PM

What Monster's are those? Pretty narrow at the waist.

vinnay

01-14-2005, 06:47 PM

also, looks like the "monster" is the monster.com logo.

TJ.Brk

01-14-2005, 10:40 PM

They increased each monster ski in the tip tail and waist by 3mm. In other words Monster 88

Jumper Bones

01-14-2005, 11:07 PM

I guess what I meant when I voiced my opposition at the beginning of this thread, is that I can't say I thought Rossi needed ANOTHER ski between the b1 and (former) b3. I mean, don't the Scratch BC and b2 cover that spot? Specifically what I'd meant, was that the B4 should have been BIGGER than the existant b3, giving Rossi a superfat like K2, Line, Head, Fischer, Atomic, Iggy, and every other ski manufacturer. Maybe not necessarily the XXXX super-fucking-stiff board, but a larger ski all around. And maybe this would push their binding divisions to make a decent-size wide brake too. I'd have loved to have put Rossi/Looks on my Kahunas, but the jig wouldn't even fit, let alone find brakes wide enough without a whole lot of bending.

So Rossi, once again, walks the cautious, conservative, non-creative side of things.

KANUTTEN

01-17-2005, 08:08 AM

..are really some ugly looking sticks!

Meathelmet

01-17-2005, 08:17 AM

I'd have loved to have put Rossi/Looks on my Kahunas, but the jig wouldn't even fit, let alone find brakes wide enough without a whole lot of bending. So Rossi, once again, walks the cautious, conservative, non-creative side of things.

Does 3mm make that big a difference? No problems to bend the brakes to Gotamas.Didnt even need to heat.

Jumper Bones

01-17-2005, 01:09 PM

note - jig would NOT fit. Kahuna has 108mm waist. Solly jig fit only after removing rubber boots from the gripper arms on each side.

after seeing a slightly-off mount happen to my Iggy FFLs, I have decided precision is kind of important on mounts.

And I've got a set of bent brakes on my Pistols....they're digging into the corners of the topsheet. No thanks, think I'll get brakes that actually fit...in that case, the wide brakes will fit the 95mm waists no problem. But no luck on the Kahunas.