ice tools / boots reccommendations

[brice618]

I'm thinking there is no need for an ice specific boot as I want to be mountaineering as much as strictly ice climbing.

Since I want to be doing more than just ice climbing I'm a bit nervous to get leashless tools. Should I be? It seems like dropping a tool to the bottom of a single pitch isn't a big deal compared to 3000' down a face.

Not quite ski related I know, but I'm guessing you guys will know whats going on as usual.

Thanks ahead of time

[back bowl]

Mountaineering, meaning lots of steep snow with moderate ice, is not the place for leashless tools. It's very different from steep ice/mixed climbing. You can get by with the same gear for both, but you should choose which is going to be the focus.

If you are primarily looking at long mountain routes you want a tool with leashes, without any crazy bends in the shaft, and without big grips or hooks on the shaft because you want to be able to plant the shaft in hard snow. Look at something like the Petzl Aztar, or BD's cobra or viper (same tool, different materials). There's older stuff you can get used too- charlet moser axars or quasars, BD rages, black prophets, or shrikes.

I have always used either BD or Petzl/Charlet gear, so I'm biased towards those two, but with some good reason. Grivel made a lot of nice gear, but replacement parts (picks) can be hard to find. I also think that BD's picks are the best right out of the box, and they've committed to the same pick style/attachment for a long time now. Their oldest technical tools can still use the newest picks. That's a good reason to get BD stuff right there. Also, as far as leashes go, androids rocks, everything else is second best.

For boots, get some comfortable leather mountaineering boots and go with it. spend some time making sure your crampon bails fit the boot well- adjust if necessary. I've seen plenty of people with a bail that didn't really lock into the toe shelf on their boot lose a crampon while climbing. Suck.

All the gear I mentioned is good long route gear, but is on the technical side of things. If what you are looking at is more along the line of steep snow fields without much technical ice, you might prefer a straight shafted tool like an old black prophet or x-15...

[lynchdogger]

Agree with that answer back bowl - nicely done!
Might add, that with the boots spend a lot time here. Just like a ski boot each manufacturer makes a boot from a different last that will fit different feet better than others. Try a bunch on. Will you be doing multi day or extreme cold weather? If so might want to look into a double boot? Visit a mountaineer/climbing shop or a guide service in your area and talk with somone for more personal help.
Also with the crampon - choose a flexible one with dual points. Rigid and/or mono points are for technical ice.
Second, that BD and/or Petzl make awesome products that last and last.
Climb safe and enjoy. Cheers. :D:

[Horu]

I'm sure that the case with mountaineering boots is similar to the one with ski boots-try a bunch on and decide what fits. Unfortunately, I'm not in a good position to do that due to my location. I'm not opposed to ordering a couple pairs of boots and sending back the ones that don't fit, but if the collective could help narrow it down to a few makes/models that would be awesome.

I'm going to be using these for glacier guiding - walking/hiking in crampons all day, climbing sometimes. The boots I end up buying will probably be overkill for what I do most of the time, but I want something that will perform well when I've got down time to go do my own thing and learn to climb.

It seems like there are quite a few boots that fit the bill for this, the tricky part is my feet. They're not super weird, but definitely wider than normal-my current ski boot is an atomic b120 27.5 with superfeet and some shell pressing (done by hillcrest in gresham, OR). I'm pretty stoked about how they fit, but considering I started with a wide body boot and pushed it out further, I'm concerned about buying climbing stuff designed for people with narrow feet. My current sneakers are TNF Ultra 104 in a US 11.5. These fit better than any shoe I've had in the past, although the toe box is just a shade too snug (only noticed due to blisters in odd places on my toes after ~6 mi. runs).

Condensed version: What companies tend to make wide(r) lasted mountaineering boots?

edit: my company has proform with sportiva, and it seems like most of our guides go with the Nepal. It's an overkill boot for what we do most of the time, but these will get a lot of use/abuse so having something overkill is not so bad as long as it's not restrictive.

[flip]

Just to reiterate, vert ice equipment is quite specialized and pretty miserable on extended routes. Axes are too short to be useful for any kind of walking techniques, bent shafts and grips make them useless as anchors, picks are too narrow and aggressive to have any purchase in snow.

You can get away with technical tools if you'll also have ski poles handy and are very comfortable on crampons. My setup for a long time was Aztars plus ski poles, which I think is about as versatile as you can get with tools that are still fun on vert ice. These days, I never do vert ice, so I sold the Aztars and have the standard BD Raven, which is a much better tool for peak bagging and ski mountaineering.

On boots, see the other comments. No need for an ice specific boot, but you do need to figure out what fits, and if you need a double boot.

On crampons, now that there are flexible crampons with vert front points, you have plenty of versatile options like the Sarken. Replaceable points aren't that big a deal. Takes a long time and a lot of sharpening to go through crampons.

[nieveparasiempre]

I'm sure there are others that make these, but BD makes a spinner leash so you can climb leash-less w/out dropping your tools.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/climb/technical-ice-tools/spinner-leash

[JoeStrummer]

Horu -

I have a wide forefoot and goofy heelcup and La Sportiva fit me perfectly. Their shit lasts me forever, too. I climb in Lhotses for 90% of the stuff in Cody or Colorado unless it's dead cold in Silverton. For that or in Canada I use my Baturas. Or just skip it and go drinking.

For stuff like glacier chugging or peakpagging and cramponing snowfields I use Trango Evos. Way more nimble than the Nepal Top, which I find too beefy for walking and not beefy enough for vert ice.

[Horu]

^Thanks joe! that's just the kind of info I was looking for.

[JoeStrummer]

^Thanks joe! that's just the kind of info I was looking for.
also, they make a Nepal Evo that is worth checking out, although I don't own a pair myself. Sort of in between the Nepal Top and Trango Evo for warmth and burl.

[Horu]

http://sportiva.com/products/prod/280

^I'm pretty sure this is what most of our guys use. The Trango Evos look interesting, I'm going to talk to some of our other guides and see what they think. Trangos being less expensive is a plus too, but considering I'll be proforming these and writing them off, I'm not tripping too hard about cost. Thanks again Joe.

[Chugachjed]

Ive got a pair of the Petzl Aztarex its a lighter weight more mountaineering oriented tool that still climbs WI. For boots Ive got older la sportiva K4S that rule super warm and comfortable.

[fool]

Horu -

I have a wide forefoot and goofy heelcup and La Sportiva fit me perfectly. Their shit lasts me forever, too. I climb in Lhotses for 90% of the stuff in Cody or Colorado unless it's dead cold in Silverton. For that or in Canada I use my Baturas. Or just skip it and go drinking.


How are the Baturas? Are they too warm for moderate ice climbing conditions, or is it just that they aren't as nice as the Lhotses in most temperatures? I have the (old school) Trango Ice Evo (if I remember correctly) but I thought getting the Baturas and selling the Ice Evos might make more sense. Problem is the Baturas are quite expensive and I haven't found a good place to buy them.


For stuff like glacier chugging or peakpagging and cramponing snowfields I use Trango Evos. Way more nimble than the Nepal Top, which I find too beefy for walking and not beefy enough for vert ice.

I have the Trango S EVO GTX (http://sportiva.com/products/prod/274) and I've used them in Chamonix for some glacier walking and hiking. I also used them on a backpacking trip (overkill I know) to break them in...which I did, but they also broke in my feet. ;) I've heard they don't breathe THAT well due to the GTX and I think I agree (at least for backpacking; I also should have worn liner socks probably). Though I'd be interested to see how they would hold up on a few day mountaineering trip (Rainier, etc.) as that's what I think they're made for.


http://sportiva.com/products/prod/280

^I'm pretty sure this is what most of our guys use. The Trango Evos look interesting, I'm going to talk to some of our other guides and see what they think. Trangos being less expensive is a plus too, but considering I'll be proforming these and writing them off, I'm not tripping too hard about cost. Thanks again Joe.

Indeed: I've heard a lot of full time guides use the Nepal EVOs for ice and winter mountaineering and the Trangos for summer mountaineering.

Hope this helps.

-fool

[maxtrax]

As climbing is more of my forte than skiing I figure I'll throw in my $0.02.

The Sportiva Nepal Evo is a great do anything boot if they fit - which they do for most people. It is a little beefier than you really need for most things in the lower 48 but you'll never say to yourself "damn I wish I had more boot" unless you're on Mts. Rainier or Washington in the winter. Even for long trail miles they do alright if laced only to the bottom eyelet on the cuff. I've done 23 mi / 8,000 vertical in 25hrs in mine with no issues whatsoever (note that I do have custom superfeet in mine). They also climb great - 5.8 rock, WI5, 60 deg snow, M6 .... you name it. The Nepals might not be the best at any one discipline but they do everything really well. (can you tell that I really like mine)

For strictly spring/summer type mountaineering in the lower 48 the Trango S Evo's are a great boot - I'm on my second pair. I use them for anything where I want to save weight or don't feel like I need the beefiness of my Nepals. Or when it's too muddy/nasty to use my trail runners for backpacking. My Trangos weigh 2/3rds as much and are way more comfortable than my backpacking boots.

The Trango Extremes and Baturas are also great boots from Sportiva but a little more specialized towards the technical climbing side of things. If they happen to fit you the best go with them, otherwise try to get a more general purpose boot for the use you described.

If the Sportivas don't fit you some great boots from other manufacturers you should look at are, instead of the Nepal: Scarpa Freney or Mont Blanc and instead of the Trango S: Scarpa Triolet or Charmoz, Kayland Apex Rock, Garmont Tower, Boreal Triglav.

To give you some reference on sizing my left foot measures 41.75 E, right foot measures 41.5 E, both have narrow heels and high volume through the middle of the foot. I wear my Nepals in a 42 with custom green superfeet and 1 midweight sock and my Trangos in a 41.5 with blue superfeet and 1 light to midweight sock. I feel like at E width I'm maxing out the Sportivas so if you're wider than that check out the Scarpas - the Triolets were actually too wide for me which I've never had happen in a mountaineering boot before or since.

Sorry to run on so much but hopefully the info above helps - I'll write a second post re: tools and crampons.

[maxtrax]

For primarily technical mountaineering and a little bit of vertical(ish) ice climbing check out the BD Venom, Petzl Aztarex/Aztar and Sum'tec and Grivel Matrix Light or Air Tech. They are all good tools but as previously mentioned Grivel parts tend to be harder to find and more expensive.

If you want to cheat a little towards the ice climbing side of things go with the Matrix Light or Aztarex or look at the BD Viper, Petzl Quark or Grivel Matrix Tech. Or for pure glacier walking/mountaineering just get any straight shaft ice axe in a 50-60 cm length so you can still swing it if needed. If for some reason you end up with a leashless tool make sure to get a BD spinner leash.

As far as crampons go - for the type of climbing you described the three models you should be looking at are the BD Sabertooth, Petzl Vasak and Grivel G-12. Don't bother with vertical frontpoint crampons, in fact a lot of the best climbers I know have switched back to Saberteeth or G-12s for everything including vertical ice and mixed climbing after climbing on vertical frontpoints for a few seasons.

Buy your boots first and then get the crampons that fit them the best, either step in/cramp o matic or hybrid/new matic binding style are fine. Personally I have step-in Petzl Darts for sport mixed and steep/hard ice and new-matic G-12s for everything else.

;;;;

In response to fool's question - the Baturas are pretty sick boots just sadly they don't fit as well as my Nepals, a little too wide in the heel. You can kind of think of them as a more specialized version of the Nepal or a beefier version of the Trango Extremes or Trango Ices. Basically the Baturas are a little lighter, a little warmer, a little less durable and a little more ankle flex than the Nepals. The built in gators are also really nice. The Bats really shine on cold, fast technical climbing (think CAN rockies if it's not cold enough for doubles, anything besides Foraker or Denali in AK, long hard winter routes in the lower 48). Really the only downside to them is that they don't dry nearly as easily as a double boot or quite as easily as a Nepal so if you're not climbing single push you could run into issues.

[trogdortheburninator]

Tools:

If you really want great all around tools (and not a classic mtneering axe) you would probably be best to ignore the folks suggesting a leashed tool.

Nearly any tool can be used for any type of climbing, but certain tools are more specialized, and others are great all arounders. I will assume you want to climb technical or semi-technical routes, where two tools is helpful/necessary.

For leashless tools, go with some sort of umbilical attachment so you dont drop em. BD and Grivel sell em, or make your own: http://alpinedave.com/leashless_rig.htm

For semi technical routes (steep snow couloirs with short steps of ice), good choices would be

Grivel Matrix Light (with leashes or a slider for leashless)
Camp Alpax Special (leashless convertible)
PEtzl Aztarex
etc.

These tools are typically lighter weight (500-600g). They excel on steep snow as they offer good plunging, but they will still handle some ice. In the right hands, you could climb some harder stuff in them, but that isnt there forte.

Next up would be all around tools. By far the top three would be Petzl Quark, Black Diamond Cobra (new style), and Black Diamond Viper (other offerings by DMM and Grivel are also out there, but less common in the US).

These tools will be a bit heavier on the approach (600-700g), but will climb ice and mixed better. They will typically have a more pronounced leashless pinky rest, but it is not so extreme that it will limit plunging.


Finally, would be an ergonomic grip leashless tool. These tools will provide the most hand support, making them great on steep terrain. Low angle performance generally suffers (you can still dagger or plunge in soft snow), but they are still very popular on difficult alpine routes (trading off low angle ease, for steep performance). Most would agree that the Petzl Nomic is the best tool if you plan to climb steep ice + rock. A few more options if you want to focus more on the steep rock side.

If you were more interested in water ice (or very technical alpine routes) than alpine, Nomic would be a great choice, but given your stated interests, I would look at an all arounder (Quark or Cobra). If you go with the light tools, you will probably want something new if/when you start tackling more pure water ice, or harder alpine routes.


Boots: fit and warmth will be key. You want to have toe and heel bails for step in crampons. The stiffer the sole/cuff, the better the ice performance. The softer the ankle cuff, the better the mixed/rock performance. As stated by others, the Nepal Evo is the benchmark for a high performance boot that handles all types of terrain. I find that they walk fine, and climb ice great. They are a bit heavier than Sportiva Trango series and equivalents.

[trogdortheburninator]

also, you are more likely to drop a traditional leashed tool, than you are a leashless tool with umbilicals.

[harpo-the-skier]

I just picked up a pair of the old style Cobra with Android leashes cheap in great condition. I will use them mostly in the fall in the Sierra when some of the steeper couloir ski descents turn into ice. You often encounter neve too. I also plan on using them for WI2,3,4 in the winter. If there is a long snow approach to a climb I will plan to bring my whippets.

How will the old style cobras be for my purposes?

BTW, I used a pair of Trango S Evo on a 50 deg ice/neve climb (White Mountain N. Couloir) and they worked well. The guide I was with said I would have gotten less calf ache if I used a boot with a burlier sole, but that would not have performed as well as on the hike in. I have a pair of old plastic doubles I will use in the winter on steeper ice.

[trogdortheburninator]

old style cobra will be fine for those purposes, but not cutting edge. The new cobra is a BIG improvement, but obviously a lot more $$$. Upside to old style is that they plunge well for a technical tool, and they have a good swing. Downside is that it is very difficult to set the tool up leashless (not impossible with a bit of ingenuity). People climbed (and some still do) very hard routes on those tools, so they can hardly be blamed for any deficiency.

Matching cobras with Trango S is a bit like putting Dukes on a Trab race ski. It will work, but is not an even match. Trango S will be very poor if you want to climb steepish water ice, so, like you said, you'd probably be better off using your doubles in those situations. Rigid soled single boots are not that bad on the hike in, and more than make up for it while climbing. I only really use something like a trango s for glacier approaches to rock climbs, where sneakers alone arent sufficient.

[jumpturn]

I'm on petzl quarks for ice and skiing. They do everything. I use the BD android leash, which is great. ( One time, I dropped a tool off a 2-pitch 5+ about 10' from the top. Done. Leashes are good; just loosen them up so they provide no support,)

Grivel rambos with mono points do everything well, especially mixed.

Laportiva boots are good if you plan on plodding around. Pick the weight for your temperature and technique, but Asolo 8000s are really warm.

However, I went for a number of years with Scarpa Denalis, and they climb 5+ ice no problem. Lately, I just strap rambos on my dynafit ZZeus or Titans and climb whatever ice. Using a ski mountaineering boot offers big advantages on the descent.

For a time, I was using "petit skis", aka approach skis, and the Asolo 8000s, but you have to be superhuman to stay up on your feet because there is no backseat due to boot softness. (Some people rig them up with plastic supports behind the calf to make them more skiable.) I did ski some 40º with this gear, but real boots, skis and binders are way way better!!!

[Kevo]

I can't say enough good things about my Petzl quarks. i love em. BD makes some good stuff too. Also, I LOVE La Sportiva. I have three pairs of Sportiva boots- Trango Treks (for backpacking), Glaciers (for fire fighting) and Nepal Extreme Evos for ice climbing and mountaineering. The fit in all of these boots are incredible for my feet, and all 3 incredibly comfortable on my feet.


Brice- I have a pair of gently used Scarpa Inverno's (double boot) that I'm looking to unload for really cheap. I have a size 11 foot. They would be a good boot to learn in before you drop $400-$500 on a pair of boots.

[JoeStrummer]

I just picked up a pair of the old style Cobra with Android leashes cheap in great condition. I will use them mostly in the fall in the Sierra when some of the steeper couloir ski descents turn into ice. You often encounter neve too. I also plan on using them for WI2,3,4 in the winter. If there is a long snow approach to a climb I will plan to bring my whippets.

How will the old style cobras be for my purposes?


That's what I use, never had a real desire to "upgrade." I do have Nomics and Grivel Alp Wings and Quarks which I use on occasion but Cobras get most of my "mountaineering with some ice" use and even lots of shit in Cody that is 90% ice.

[brice618]

Wow this thread exploded. Good to see all this information!

Since starting the thread I bought a pair of Nepal Evo's. They are the shit as far as I can tell. Still a bit stiff, to be expected with leather though.

I've climbed with aztars, nomics, quarks, and some older grivels. So far my favorite and what I am leaning towards is the quark. Nomics are sick for vertical ice and mixed, but I want the versatility of the quark and removable pinky catch.

I did my first leads on some wi3's a few days ago. I used the aztars for that, and really did not like the leashes being in the way. Climbed with both clipless leash and the regular leash that came with the aztars. Clipless was better, but still not that great, they would constantly get in the way of me trying to place screws.

However, I climbed with the quarks that had the zinger type leashes that hooked to the d-loop on my harness with a swivel. I like that, still able to move around and switch tools when necessary, and no worry about dropping them. Could be good for multi-pitch, but it seems like having two pairs of tools would be the way to go, or a pair of tools and a good general mountaineering axe. Alas I'm probably going to wait to buy any tools till they come on sale after the season.

I've toproped a few mixed climbs from m5 - m7. Holy shit, I love mixed climbing!

This is fun. Scary too.