Patagonia - Does your momma dress you? Or does Chouinard?

[alto]

First off, I love Patagonia. They build amazing clothing, and I agree and support their business ethic. But...

The Winter 09 catalog that just showed up in the mail starts off with a short article called "Dressing for winter." It basically makes the claim that Chouinard invented layering.


Before Patagonia introduced the idea of layering during the '70s, climbers and cross-country skiers wore what lowland woodsmen and lumberjacks had used for a hundred years...

It goes on to explain how Chouinard drew inspiration for synthetic base layers from fisherman on the North Atlantic, then put it together into the three part baselayer, insulation, shell package we all love today.


Patagonia introduced the idea to mountaineers a generation ago... It worked well enough then to transform the way everyone ultimately (including the woodsman and lumberjack) dressed for winter.

So I'm wondering how much credence this bold claim has. Can Chouinard really lay claim to inventing our modern method of layering? Or is this insanely over-embellished copywriting catalog fluff? Or both?

[bklyn]

.... insanely over-embellished copywriting catalog fluff? Or both?

Men and women have been layering clothing for all of recorded history.

[colsurfer]

Got this catalog in the mail and read the article as well. If any one gets the credit for this I would give it to the fisherman of the North Atlantic.

[bio-smear]

If any one gets the credit for this I would give it to the fisherman of the North Atlantic.

Who, interestingly enough, are rumored to have a pro-deal with Patagonia.

[LightRanger]

I love Patagonia--both for the quality of their stuff and the various other cool stuff the company does. And I'm sure that they did draw inspiration from North Atlantic fisherman.

But that catalog is full of shit.

According to his wikipedia entry, George Mallory wore six-layers of clothing on Everest in 1926. Yvon wasn't even born until 1938, and I'm sure the K2 expedition of that same year was layered up just like Mallory.

[JimmyCarter]

I love Patagonia--both for the quality of their stuff and the various other cool stuff the company does. And I'm sure that they did draw inspiration from North Atlantic fisherman.

But that catalog is full of shit.

According to his wikipedia entry, George Mallory wore six-layers of clothing on Everest in 1926. Yvon wasn't even born until 1938, and I'm sure the K2 expedition of that same year was layered up just like Mallory.

Yeah, but were their layers handily numbered for different weather situations and outdoor activities?

[Big Steve]

Of course, Chouinard did not invent layering, but I believe he did introduce synthetic pile jackets/sweaters and the wicking concept to the climbing/skiing marketplace. I believe that Helly Hansen* first developed synthetic fleece for use by North Atlantic fisherman, hence Patagucci catalog's allusion to them. Chouinard also strongly advocated the use of vapor barriers, but Patagucci soon dropped that idea because VB's require too much user knowledge and thus defy mass marketing.

*Back when I was working the outdoor industry in the late 1970's and early 1980's, I sold a full Helly Hansen layering system to Walter Mondale. This is no shit.

[AlpenChronicHabitual]

Thinking back that far, there weren't a lot of companies offering what I would call technical Gear. Patagonia, Helly Hansen, Wilderness Experience, Lowe Alpine and TNF are the few names I remember from the early 80's (I'm sure I'm missing some). Seams like GoreTex came on the scene somewhere around 83? For me, even though layering was a big deal, and the whole breathable membrane thing was the buzz, active venting like pit zips was what really made it all work for me.

[Big Steve]

Late 1970's for GoreTex, I think. I got a GoreTex anorak when the stuff first came on the scene. I was a poor college student, couldn't afford it but I was lured by the promises of WB. What crap. It was a real POS, leaked like a sieve, breathed like a garbage bag.

Before GoreTex, our choices were 60/40 cloth, Peter Storm cloth (an early urethane coated fabric, I think) and ventile cotton. Ventile was an interesting thing -- the theory was that it would breathe in dry conditions (it did) but, when wet, the cotton fibers would swell up, rendering it akin to waterproof canvas (it didn't).

[XXX-er]

When Chouinard goes fishing he comes to BC not the Atlantic and when he was up here a few weeks ago he presented the "activist of the year" award to a woman who swam 611 kms of the skeena a long haul and some shit I would really NOT want to be swimming in

pretty cool

http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_north/interior-news/news/63612217.html

[Big Steve]

Yvon probably prefers the BC weed

[XXX-er]

The Bulkley is supposed to have the best steelhead fishing in the world according to the fisherman I shuttled this morning

you definatley want to read " let my people go surfing "

Let My People Go Surfing: Amazon.ca: Yvon Chouinard: Books

I had a copy which a local enviro nerd borrowed and I havent seen it since ... I expect it could be making the rounds of the various NGO's and enviro warriors

I think back east they drink screech & smoke seaweed eh?

[Hugh Conway]

Barrel Stave skis aka reverse camber, rocker skis were around in the 1920s and earlier. You going to piss on McConkey next? Nothings fucking new in the world.

[zombinate]

For the record, I invented the sandwich. I was given the idea by Patagonia's layering system, and I thought to myself: hey if it works for fleece, why not deli meats." The real secret of my success was the introduction of mustard, it allows the rest of the ingredients to breathe. Prior to this it was just a swampy mess, especially the pickles. Sandwiches, Atlantic fishermen love that shit!

[highangle]

first there was pile, this scratchy spongy shit that kayakers fell in love with because it would dry fast
then these guys who used to hang out all summer at Yosemite and climb and fish and kayak and drink beer and talk Thoreau and Abbey got the idea that they could bottle their enviable lifestyle and sell it

along the way, Coonyard pretty much changed climbing from pitons to chocks, got big then went bankrupt, then helped engineer the employee takeover of that bankrupt company that is now Black Diamond, took some huge risks but lived and succeeded completely on his own terms and roughly in accordance with the values he preaches

if he wants to take credit for the marketing concept of layers for athletic and outdoors clothing, i won't begrudge him the point too much

it's kinda blurry, but it was probably he or Tompkins that first brought it into mass merchandising the way it is now

and it was probably an idea first brought up over beers at a campfire at Yosemite, like Muir and Roosevelt did with the National Park System

[Tye 1on]

There's layering wool and Helly Hanson, and there's layering capilene and gore-tex.

[XXX-er]

f

along the way, Coonyard pretty much changed climbing from pitons to chocks, got big then went bankrupt, then helped engineer the employee takeover of that bankrupt company that is now Black Diamond, took some huge risks but lived and succeeded completely on his own terms and roughly in accordance with the values he preaches
m

there was a good artical in outside back in the day

when Chouinard pullled the plug on the climbing company it was due to rising insurance costs from the insurance company that settled instead of fought and then doubled the premiums every year,the last straw was when a lawyer took a flyer while wearinmg one of his harnesses and they sued chouinard instead of the climbing school or the guide ...you sue the deepest pockets right?

the climbing part of his business was a pittance compared to patagonia which had been kept totaly seperate so he let it go

[old goat]

I've been climbing since 1969--standard clothing was mesh undershirt, wool shirt, wool sweater, 60/40 parka or coated parka--both uninsulated--depending on whether it was raining or not. Pants were long johns and military surplus wool pants, with coated rain pants as needed. I think I learned that from "Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills". I made the parkas myself. Same layering we use today, although the layers sure have gotten a lot better. I still use my brown, nappy Patagonia fleece jacket--the first fleece I bought back in the seventies, and still the best when it's really cold. I don't know if Patagonia invented artificial fleece but I think that jacket was the first one generally available to mountaineers. Anyone know who invented it?

[Tye 1on]

My guess is that Malden Mills invented it, and Patagucci refined and popularized it.

[El Chupacabra]

Al Gore invented layering.

[alto]

I believe that Helly Hansen* first developed synthetic fleece for use by North Atlantic fisherman, hence Patagucci catalog's allusion to them....

This pretty much answers the question I think, since Patagonia's article seems to be referring to using a synthetic base layer... Synthetic insulation and outerwear too. So was HH the first company to develop the ability to manufacture clothing made of synthetic materials? When did the technology for synthetics in clothing come about and what was its first manifestation?

[alto]

Furthermore, fuck a synthetic base layer. The new Merino-blend wools a la Icebreaker are so nice, so functional. All the progress in synthetics, and it still turns out a natural material can work better when used correctly.

[LightRanger]

Furthermore, fuck a synthetic base layer. The new Merino-blend wools a la Icebreaker are so nice, so functional. All the progress in synthetics, and it still turns out a natural material can work better when used correctly.

I tend to agree with you on this, but I still think there are several synthetics that wick better than wool (Driclime, Powerdry, and maybe some others). That's compared to a bunch of Icebreaker stuff I have. I think on balance wool outweighs these fabrics because of the no-stink and just generally feeling better, but I doubt I'll completely get rid of my synthetics (I am paring them down as they get destroyed though).



In the context of Patagonia inventing layering with more-modern pile midlayers, I'll believe that to a much-larger extent than the original posited position.

[hutash]

For those of us climbing and skiing in the 70's I can most assuredly say Yvon did not start the concept. We all layer, it was just common sense. What he did was take the concept and revolutionize it with improved fibers and technology. We went from oiled wool sweaters to pile jackets. Itchy wool longjohns to polypro, etc.

Patagonia promoted layering, but certainly did not invent it.

I can't remember exactly, but the first Gore-tex jacket I purchased was about 1979. It was from Wilderness Experience if I recall. I think my brother still has the jacket. And yes it was waterproof, inside and out:rolleyes:

To add the the list of outdoor companies...does anyone remember Snowlion? I still have a down jacket and sleeping bag from them. Excellent quality, very high grade down for its day, just couldn't complete against the likes of TNF and Patagucci.

[Big Steve]

Yeah, I remember Snowlion. High quality stuff. How about Whittaker's "Because It's There" gear that was made with low quality thread that failed in the field.

Let's remember that Yvon was the pioneer of many breakthroughs in climbing technology, including many pitons (cro moly angles, Bugaboos, Knifeblades), cro moly crampons with front points and D-shaped biners.


So was HH the first company to develop the ability to manufacture clothing made of synthetic materials? When did the technology for synthetics in clothing come about and what was its first manifestation?
AFAIK, HH (including Lifa) was the first. I worked in the outdoor industry during college and then between teaching and law school, mid-1970's to early 1980's, and in the early days, Lifa was the sole manufacturer of synthetic base layers. HH fleece came out later, soon followed thereafter by Chouinard/Patagonia.

[Tye 1on]

AFAIK, HH (including Lifa) was the first. I worked in the outdoor industry during college and then between teaching and law school, mid-1970's to early 1980's, and in the early days, Lifa was the sole manufacturer of synthetic base layers. HH fleece came out later, soon followed thereafter by Chouinard/Patagonia.

Still think it's Malden Mills that invented pile, found this wiki on it. Not as sure about polypro...

Lifa, man, that brings back memories! With the white squares down the side? Talk about an incredible ability to retain odor! :eek:

[Big Steve]

Just confirmed it. HH developed its Fiberpile in 1961, before Malden Mills was founded. See http://www.hellyhansen.com/about-us/heritage:

The original fleece, the fiberpile, was developed in 1961 and has been perfected for almost 50 years since. This new insulation layer was warm, lightweight and fast-drying, ideal for wearing under the protective layer. It was soon embraced by workers because it offered extraordinary insulation against the cold, and ventilated well during hard, physical work. It even protected against snow and light rain, staying extremely durable and warm after many washes.

The layering story was completed in the 1970s, with the development of LIFA. This wonder-fiber, used in LIFA, kept the skin dry and warm by pushing moisture away from the body, making it the ideal baselayer fabric for outdoor and workwear use. The latest generation of LIFA is still used in our baselayers today.

[Tye 1on]

Good to know, thanks!

[dk_alaskan]

Furthermore, fuck a synthetic base layer. The new Merino-blend wools a la Icebreaker are so nice, so functional. All the progress in synthetics, and it still turns out a natural material can work better when used correctly.

wool is a GREAT material, breathable, keeps you warm wet or dry, flame/burn resistant. It is a great thing, UNLESS you are ALLERGIC to it....

[XXX-er]

Let's remember that Yvon was the pioneer of many breakthroughs in climbing technology, including many pitons (cro moly angles, Bugaboos, Knifeblades), cro moly crampons with front points and D-shaped biners.



the people I know who have met YC lately say hes very chill

do you think in a company as big as patagucci ,YC would be writing the ad copy ?

[hutash]

Will I doubt YC writes ad copy, I would not be the least surprised that he does do such things occasionally. He is not your typical CEO, and is often found wondering around the offices getting involved in day to day operations, or just being a personal face in, which for most companies be a faceless exec.

[alto]

Fishermen?
http://media.nscdn.com/uploads/site/news/12352007087686/DSC_0162.jpg
http://homeboyski.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/1225158280-644488-400x533-1225157953n10235657_40532889_3450.jpg

[pfluffenmeister]

^^^^^ so those are the "tall-T's" that all the young hipsters are wearing these days.

[Hugh Conway]

wool is a GREAT material, breathable, keeps you warm wet or dry, flame/burn resistant. It is a great thing, UNLESS you are ALLERGIC to it....

or when it streches after getting soaked through, and the micro rents from pack buckles, or taking forever to dry, or any of the other drawbacks to wool

[XXX-er]

wool is nice stuff it feels nicer ,I think in use wool & plastic work pretty close to the same in terms of warmth but the big thing is that wool feels nice & doesnt stink ,even as a base layer inside a dry suit or on a BC ski trip where you are wearing the same clothes for 7 days wool doesnt stink near as much as plastic

the downsides IMO are the higher price and I just don't find wool as durable , I get holes in base layers sooner than I thot was reasonable and on 2 different brands of ZIP-T's the wool has worn thru where the edge of the zip/wool contacts the neck and beard which doesnt happen with a crew neck ... so one bit of advice I can give with wool is to buy crew neck not zip-T