AWD

[MCskid]

Can someone tell me the difference between real and fake awd? And does anyone know when subaru made the switch from fake to real?

[JET123]

What do you call fake vs. real???

[Snow Dog]

I call Honda CRV's system "fake AWD". The system is FWD and the computer decides when to engage the rear wheels. It's a traction aid and there's no ability to engage AWD when you're on a loose surface and want all the wheels working. I'm not even sure it's AWD -- it might be 4WD with a center clutch but no center diff.

As far as I know Subaru has always been AWD but automatic and manual transmissions use a different center differential.

[huge-go]

Subaru, and if I'm not mistaken Audi's quattro system is all wheel drive. This is 4 wheel drive, 100% of the time. Most other compaines 4wd is a system where the front wheels have to start slipping in order for for the rear wheels to engage. Some companies have a a system where you can just push a button to override the system and go into 4wd. The disadvantage with 4wd drive is that sometimes, once people lose control, they'll just get off the accelerator and slam on the brakes, and the only way the 4wd drive will engage is if you are accelerating when the slippage occurs. Obvious disadvantage with awd, fuel economy.

[L7]

I call Honda CRV's system "fake AWD". The system is FWD and the computer decides when to engage the rear wheels. It's a traction aid and there's no ability to engage AWD when you're on a loose surface and want all the wheels working. I'm not even sure it's AWD -- it might be 4WD with a center clutch but no center diff.

As far as I know Subaru has always been AWD but automatic and manual transmissions use a different center differential.

Somehow with the automatic it has the ability (I think) to put power bias to the front wheels which the manual doesn't. You can disengage the AWD by pulling a fuse on the auto but not the manual as well.

As snow dog says Honda realtime (aka fake) AWD cuts out the second axle at 30 km/hr or something. I don't care as much about pulling off a light fast as I care about staying on a curved road at 80 or 100 km.

[MultiVerse]

Top Gear Australia sucks but this video (watch two minutes in) does demonstrate why pseudo all-wheel-drive fails under certain conditions (the new VW / Audi A3 Haldex systems are actually pretty good) versus the real AWD Audi & Subaru have. Better yet, it makes a strong case for snow tires. I’d rather have two wheel drive and snows rather than AWD and all seasons… it goes without saying that AWD + snows is the way to go.

t9bSLdJTe0Q

Subaru also uses two different systems one for cars equipped with manual transmissions and one for automatics.

[dumpy]

Subaru also uses two different systems one for cars equipped with manual transmissions and one for automatics.

I'm pretty sure the difference is in the power transfer ratio (if thats the right phrase), in other words how much torque the front gets vs the rear. I'm pretty sure the automatic version is more biased to the front than the standard which is more balanced.

I could also be completely full of shit, but my GF just bought a Subaru (hope she doesn't switch teams now) and I'm pretty sure thats what the dealer told us.

[MultiVerse]

I'm pretty sure the difference is in the power transfer ratio (if thats the right phrase), in other words how much torque the front gets vs the rear. I'm pretty sure the automatic version is more biased to the front than the standard which is more balanced.

I could also be completely full of shit, but my GF just bought a Subaru (hope she doesn't switch teams now) and I'm pretty sure thats what the dealer told us.


Both systems are first rate when it comes to AWD but the cars equipped with automatics utilize more electronics versus a more mechanical system on the manuals.

Continuous All-Wheel Drive Models equipped with 5-speed manual transmission utilize a viscous-type locking center differential with torque distribution normally configured at a 50/50-split front-to-rear. If wheel speed differs between front and rear axles, the system helps distribute power to the wheels with the most traction.


Active All-Wheel Drive Models equipped with 4-speed automatic transmission utilize an electronically controlled variable transfer clutch to distribute power to where traction is needed. Sensors monitor parameters such as wheel slippage, throttle position and braking, to help determine torque distribution and direct it to the wheels with optimum traction.

[Snow Dog]

Much as I enjoy ignorant speculation -- SubaruAWD.pdf (http://home.comcast.net/~a6n6d6y/andy/Subaru%20AWD.pdf)

Subaru has four AWD systems:
1. Center Diff with limited slip
2. Active Torque Split (multi-plate transfer clutch)
3. Variable Torque Distribution
4. Driver Controlled Center Differential

[L7]

Much as I enjoy ignorant speculation -- SubaruAWD.pdf (http://home.comcast.net/~a6n6d6y/andy/Subaru%20AWD.pdf)



Maybe not quite as much as I enjoy condescending smugness wrapped in sarcasm.

[Snow Dog]

I was about to launch into my own speculation when I thought: "why don't I try this Google search thingy in the corner". Worked great.

And to add to that; some car makers (e.g. Subaru, Jeep) provide a lot of detail on their 4WD/AWD systems. Other car makers are more coy. While researching small SUVs the user forums are full of "I think the AWD works like this" because the manufacturer isn't talking.

[JET123]

I have a cousin who knows this girl who dated this guy that lived in yurt that had a birdhouse where a wise owl lived that wisely said a manual subi has an almost 50/50 distribution of power where an auto subi is something in the realm of 60/40 or 70/30 biased to the rear.

But WTF do I know other than I feel waaaay more planted and connected with my 5sp subi + Hankooks than I ever did with my auto 4Runner V6 + numerous tire purchases.

That's some useful chit there :D

[SuperChief]

real snow cars have manuals

[karpiel]

A couple seem confused.

awd is not 4wd.

[MultiVerse]

Real cars have manual transmissions

Fixed it for you :biggrin:

[BSS]

Subarus used to be 4WD up until around 1986. Now they have VTD and ATS AWD, with their high end models having DCCD, and a few here and there over the years which are FWD. There is no fake or real AWD. Do you have any more retarded questions we can help with?

[BSS]

Oh. Yeah.

Lokks like Snow Dog already got it.

[XXX-er]

http://www.hondacarindia.com/CRV/Technology/Real.aspx

its front wheel drive with the rear wheel drive kicking in when its needed ,sounds like it's more like a mini van than a 4x4 so do you need real 4x4 ?

realtime might be good on the highway and shitty for real 4x4 ing ...but how many people that buy them do that?

[MCskid]

Subarus used to be 4WD up until around 1986. Now they have VTD and ATS AWD, with their high end models having DCCD, and a few here and there over the years which are FWD. There is no fake or real AWD. Do you have any more retarded questions we can help with?

Yes, one more retarded question, why do you have 5,075 posts? all in a little over 3 years.

[mach.850]

Without looking at the internet I would say that my 5-sp Subie is something different than 50-50. How else can you kick out the back end so easy (ala RWD) on snow/ice?

[YetiMan]

real snow cars have manuals

wtf are you talking about? :nonono2:

[Utarded]

I'd like to take this opportunity to pop in here and say that Fake AWD (ala Subaru, Honda, etc.) S.U.C.K.S.... at least for some types of driving. Like mine.

With the combination of 4 studded snow tires and manual 4WD, I never got stuck with my ford escape, chevy trailblazer, or dodge ram. However, since getting a fake 4wd Honda CRV, I've slid off the road twice (at LESS THAN 10 mph) and also had to be winched out of parking lot snowbanks on two separate occasions. I really despise AWD. I'll never buy a car with it again.

I don't care how many times per second each computerized AWD axle checks for slippage. If the wheels are turning, and the car is moving forward, I found out that the computer thinks everything is running smoothly and won't give full power to all 4 wheels to traction you out of very slippery situations.

I'll just warn anybody who is thinking of buying a car with AWD instead of 4WD. Check around with people who have owned/compared both before you buy.

[YetiMan]

if you can't drive in snow with an awd subaru, you suck at driving.

[hemas]

IBlaa, blaa and blaa

You sure it was the car and AWD system... rather than tires.

[BSS]

Yes, one more retarded question, why do you have 5,075 posts? all in a little over 3 years.

Because I'm the moderator here. Don't make me beat you with the bannage stick.

[PaSucks]

I'd like to take this opportunity to pop in here and say that Fake AWD (ala Subaru, Honda, etc.) S.U.C.K.S.... at least for some types of driving. Like mine.

With the combination of 4 studded snow tires and manual 4WD, I never got stuck with my ford escape, chevy trailblazer, or dodge ram. However, since getting a fake 4wd Honda CRV, I've slid off the road twice (at LESS THAN 10 mph) and also had to be winched out of parking lot snowbanks on two separate occasions. I really despise AWD. I'll never buy a car with it again.

I don't care how many times per second each computerized AWD axle checks for slippage. If the wheels are turning, and the car is moving forward, I found out that the computer thinks everything is running smoothly and won't give full power to all 4 wheels to traction you out of very slippery situations.

I'll just warn anybody who is thinking of buying a car with AWD instead of 4WD. Check around with people who have owned/compared both before you buy.

I'm pretty sure you and your tires are the problem. And what is "fake AWD?"

[MultiVerse]

Without looking at the internet I would say that my 5-sp Subie is something different than 50-50. How else can you kick out the back end so easy (ala RWD) on snow/ice?


Really? It’s because you are on snow and ice. Not that it’s that hard kick the back end out anyway just watch a rally race to see what happens when the driver flicks the wheel… what happens next is where the AWD system comes into play.

The 50:50, 70:30 or whatever only applies up until wheel slippage occurs. Some will cut power (Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, passenger cars, for example) and other will attempt to deliver more power to the wheel(s) with traction (Audi, Subaru, BMW, for example.) Of course, this is vastly simplified because what actually happens lies somewhere in between.

The biggest difference between Part-Time AWD (call it fake if you want) and Full-Time AWD is that Part-Time is mainly designed as a “Traction Aid” while Full-Time AWD improves cornering performance and also aids in traction.

[Hugh Conway]

Yes, one more retarded question, why do you have 5,075 posts?

Because he pushed the submit button 5,075 times.

You really are a fucking retard, aren't you?

[jSki]

Because he pushed the submit button 5,075 times.

You really are a fucking retard, aren't you?

Wow, you're really making friends today. Does this self destruction mean you're about to start a new user name again?

[karpiel]

Yes, one more retarded question, why do you have 5,075 posts? all in a little over 3 years.

It's really not that hard, this reply took me a whole of 10 seconds.

[ptavv]

4WD > AWD

[MCskid]

Because he pushed the submit button 5,075 times.

You really are a fucking retard, aren't you?

Yes I am! Why do you have 3,485 posts in 15 months, that's about 9/10 a day. This site is kinda cool but it ain't that cool. You kids really need to stop surfing the web so much and get a hobby. Try skiing, or hell get a bottle of Lubriderm, a playboy and rub one out! Anything other than spending all day online responding to retards(really hugh 10 posts a day?)

[karpiel]

You should have a word with SMT on mtbr.
http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?find=lastposter&t=494382

[Shen]

Subaru, and if I'm not mistaken Audi's quattro system is all wheel drive. This is 4 wheel drive, 100% of the time.
Audi uses both.
The TT and the A3 have the Haldex system.
All others are full time all wheel.

McSkid:
My A4 Avant Quattro has Blizzak WS 60's and it goes through almost anything. Yet, it is still no comparison to true 4 wheel drive. Which is what my last vehicle had. A good option is to buy another set of wheels and get some good snow tires.

[cdlv]

awd = lame, when you blow one tire out and have to buy 4 new ones

[karpiel]

awd = lame, when you blow one tire out and have to buy 4 new ones

Yes, luckily the one time I blew one out I only had 1k miles on the tires.

[Snow Dog]

awd = lame, when you blow one tire out and have to buy 4 new onesNot really. You can buy one tire and shave the tread to match or buy a matching used tire. But go an buy four if you want to.

[XXX-er]

Not really. You can buy one tire and shave the tread to match or buy a matching used tire. But go an buy four if you want to.

since you are in BC headsup ,at kal tire they will replace both tires on the axle where one has failed and prorate you for the use of both

[Platinum Pete]

On a "fake AWD" vehicle like the Hondas would you go with 4 snow tires or just the fronts?

[hutash]

Audi uses both.
The TT and the A3 have the Haldex system.
All others are full time all wheel.



Partly true, party wrong. Yes the TT and A3 have Haldex, which is an electronically driven AWD. The computer senses wheel slip, and direct power to wheels with the best grip. The A4 has a mechanical AWD. When slip occurs an oil filled mechanical clutch starts to engage. The more spin the more it is engaged. If there is no slip it is still a two wheel drive car.


As for somebody's post about AWD is useless compared to 4WD unless you are on the power, that is a useless statement, since if there is no power going to the wheels no car is going to have traction, 2WD, 4WD, or AWD are the same at that point.

[XXX-er]

people figure they can out drive anti lock brakes and ESC so why not realtime AKA fake 4x4 ?

you probably don't want fake 4x4 in the bush , altho I havent tried it fake 4x4 sounds like a good thing on the highway

fulltime front wheel drive with rear wheel drive kicking in would be much better for gas milege

[This End Up]

4WD > AWD Agreed, unless of course the driver has little or no mechanical knowledge, and leaves the 4X4 engaged on dry pavement. AWD, real or fakie, is better for these folks.

[Shen]

Partly true, party wrong. Yes the TT and A3 have Haldex, which is an electronically driven AWD. The computer senses wheel slip, and direct power to wheels with the best grip. The A4 has a mechanical AWD. When slip occurs an oil filled mechanical clutch starts to engage. The more spin the more it is engaged. If there is no slip it is still a two wheel drive car..
Check this out..
www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd_2.htm

[johngenx]

For on-road applications, Subaru AWD and winter tires is pretty much as anyone will ever need. I've driven my Forester (on Blizzaks) on some very difficult roads in the mountains and had no problems whatsoever. For true off-roading, a 4X4 system, as found in many trucks/SUV's will work better. The problem with truck-style 4X4 systems is that they don't provide instant AWD performance when transitioning between surfaces. A Subaru type system works great for getting around town and thanks to full-time (all Subaru systems now send power to both ends in some percentage) AWD, is great for mountain roads. But, physics is physics, and the only thing touchign the ground (we hope) are tires. Get good ones.

Back to Subaru AWD. Some might compare the CR-V "real time" to the older-ish 90/10 AT Subaru system. But, there are significant differences. The Subaru system always sends power to the rear axle, and is rarely in the "90/10" mode...

Under normal, dry pavement operation torque split is about 90% front and 10% rear. This distribution helps to compensate for the car’s weight distribution and resultant smaller effective rolling diameter of the front tires. As weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle, (i.e., under acceleration), the TCU shifts the torque split more toward the rear wheels. Under hard braking, torque is directed forward. Torque distribution is changed based upon how the vehicle is being driven. Throttle position, gearshift lever position, current gear and other factors combine to influence the TCU and it, in turn, selects a software map that determines how aggressively torque split will be adjusted.

Two speed sensors are used by the TCU to detect wheel slippage. One sensor monitors the front axle set, the other the rear axle set. Pre-programmed variables help the TCU differentiate between slipping wheels and normal wheel speed differentials as what occurs when cornering. A speed differential (front-to-rear) of up to 20% signals the TCU that the vehicle is cornering and torque is distributed to the front wheels to help increase traction during the turn. Anything above 20%, however, indicates to the TCU that wheel slippage is occurring and torque is then distributed to the rear wheels.

Another feature of the all-wheel drive system is its interaction with the anti-lock brake system. When ABS is engaged, the transmission selects third gear, reducing the unpredictability of engine braking and, thus, reducing the possibility of wheel lock-up. But all four wheels are still connected to the engine through the AWD system and are brought back up to overall vehicle speed quicker and can, therefore, be controlled again sooner. In a two-wheel drive system if the locking wheel isn’t a drive wheel, it can only be brought back up to overall wheel speed by whatever traction exists between it and the road.

[PNWbrit]

There is an amazing amount of complete bollocks being talked in this thread.

[Viva]

Yet, it is still no comparison to true 4 wheel drive. Which is what my last vehicle had.

You had a 4X4 with both front and rear lockers?

[YetiMan]

You had a 4X4 with both front and rear lockers?

heh, I had a scout with a detroit rear and a trutrac front, it was squirrely as shit, especially if you pinned it in 4 on snow/ice and that trutrac locked hard.


There is an amazing amount of complete bollocks being talked in this thread.

astonishing. it's a bullshit factory in here.

[Patches]

If you can't get wherever you want in a Subie or Audi AWD w/ snows, you need to kill yourself.

[Patches]

Or get one of these in 6 wheel drive:

http://www.pinzgauer.com/shfull.php?table=pics_vehicles&picid=2006

[arild]

On a "fake AWD" vehicle like the Hondas would you go with 4 snow tires or just the fronts?

I hope there is some sarcasm in there.

Four snow tires. Why? Because there will be some weight on all the wheels no matter what. Snow tires help with traction. It´s the same as driving a fwd car; you´ll want snow tires on the two back wheels as well. Unless you like sliding a lot, that is. Then, I believe there are cars out there with an rwd biased part time all wheel drive (Older Euro Ford and Volvo?). Would you want to go driving with snow tires on your rear wheels, and not in the front? This last one may be totally incorrect(rwd biased part timers), but I think you get my point. And if you were sarcastic, shame on you. My antennaes are not out yet!

For what it´s worth, I think VW´s 4motion system (I think it´s Haldex, but never figured out which was which - viscous copling etc) on the smaller cars, like the Golf and A3, is a great one for driving on shitty, icy, and generally slippy roads. Quattro is the rally tits, though. I´m buying an old Audi 100 Quattro wagon when my current car dies.

[YetiMan]

I get the feeling a lot of you guys find driving in snow to be very challenging and scary.

[arild]

I drive a fwd 1994 euro version of the Jetta, and it´s perfectly capable of going anywhere not above 5" deep. I use studded tires, as I don´t really like ice. The OP is a retard.

[Hugh Conway]

I get the feeling a lot of you guys find driving in snow to be very challenging and scary.

"snow" for them is found when there's this slushy shit on the road


Wow, you're really making friends today. Does this self destruction mean you're about to start a new user name again?

shouldn't you be sucking some other wankers cock right now? or is it the time to spew about "hucking" and how gnar "hucking" is

the funny thing when you change usernames is the horder of toolboxes like jski and dobish who suddenly think the same shit is golden when it comes from a different sphincter.

[stash searcher]

our 02 subie manual 2.5 impreza with blizzaks is fucking amazing. it sticks like you wouldn't believe to the ice we call roads. the only problem with these cars is the head distortion (which is a recall issue listed somewhere on the web) which causes antifreeze leakage. ugh. the car developed this problem soon after we got it, and we threw in some stopleak. it seems to have worked. the car is still the shiznit. we test drove every car we could think of while in portland, or. none of them can even come close to being as rad as the subie. my old 89 toyota corolla station wagon with blizzaks is as close as i've come to being as nimble on the road.
this being said, my mom's '00 outback isn't nearly as good as our impreza, and my dad's forrester is less cool than the outback. and we rented a brand new forrester this january and it sucked majorly. what a lame car!! go for the older subies. they last forever.

[hemas]

I get the feeling a lot of you guys find driving in snow to be very challenging and scary.

Nah, some of us just drive on snow and ice like 4 to 5 months a year. Studded tires are really handy, when the afternoon temps sort of melts to snow, but not all of it. And come night, everything freezes to make the roads seem like ice rings -> AWD or 4WD won't do shit. Studded tires, in the other hand on even a shitty FWD will.