knee gurus: quad/hamstring strength ratio

[altagirl]

I've always heard one of the big problems with knee injuries are overly strong quads in comparison to hamstrings.

So anyway, in the lifting I've done since my knee surgeries, I've been focused on hamstring curls, squats, lunges, leg press, deadlifts, etc.. but basically no leg extensions since those are typically not recommended for ACL patients. But my last PT told me that if I didn't get any pain from doing it, I could do leg extensions just in the last 10-15 degrees of ROM, which might help my VMO.

So my knees have been feeling great and I started adding the mini-leg extension back in like a month ago. But as it turns out, my hamstrings are actually stronger than my quads right now.

Is that bad in some other way? I know the usual problem is to have quads stronger than hamstrings which puts your ACL at risk...

[basom]

i was curious about this too.

i'll try and rember to get my PT's ideas about the issue tomarrow.

[altagirl]

Thanks!

[Xover]

logic would tell ya that your PCL could be at risk

... but, I know you and somehow I doubt your hammhocks are stronger than your quads; even if they were I'd say it would take a very extreme case for your pcl to be at risk - i.e. I wouldn't want to meet that person - they'd look like some mutant. :D

[girlski0912]

Overtrained hamstings can result in a strain on your lower back. I forget what the lifting ratio is "supposed" to be according to the "experts" (yes, the same ones who can't seem to decide when you should stretch!).

[altagirl]

They're not ridiculously off, but like 10-20% stronger than my quads - judging by the weights on the machines at the gym.

I'm not really worried about it - just curious. My focus when I'm lifting is on freeweight exercises - squats, deadlifts and lunges, which pretty much work everything, and are probably better training for skiing. I'm just doing the machines at the end of the workout - kindof because they had me do them in PT so I figure I should keep it up...

I think the numbers just surprised me a bit, since I know back in the day before my first knee injury my quads were way, WAY stronger than my hamstrings. Which is probably part of what led to the knee injury, but I didn't know any better back then....

I tried Googling for the "correct" ratio and got so many different numbers I gave up...

[girlski0912]

Frustrating huh? All that you want is a simple answer to your question and everyone has a different solution...sort of reminds me of asking people on the TGR board for advice come to think of it....;)

[Stikki]

Don't worry about it. As soon as you get back on the snow your quad strength will skyrocket, thus negating the ham>quad ratio.

Elite sprinters and nfl d-backs often have ham/quad ratios of 120/100. Most speed athletes are at least 1/1 if not greater in the hams. (A big key is hip extension strength, not just knee flexion.) Most athletes don't directly train quads, quad strength is a byproduct of everything else (squats, lunges, plyos, running, etc.).

The partial leg extensions help a little for stabilization. I would also suggest reverse lunges (front foot stays centered under body and back foot drops back) for the vmo.

Also, throw in some stiff leg deadlifts. This will increase hip extension strength and flexibilty.

[Mountain Junkie]

While we're on topic, does anyone have any good excercises for the VMO that don't involve a leg extension machine? There's a couple I do, but I'm looking for something that really isolates the VMO.

Tx

[Stikki]

Originally posted by girlski0912
Overtrained hamstings can result in a strain on your lower back. I forget what the lifting ratio is "supposed" to be according to the "experts" (yes, the same ones who can't seem to decide when you should stretch!).

As long the hams (and all of your muscles for that matter) stay flexible, your joints are mobile, and muscle groups stay balanced you'll be doing great.

As far as stretching goes, pre-activity warm-up should prepare the body for the movement it is going to do i.e. dynamic activity requires an increasingly dynamic warm-up. Would you prepare your voice to sing by talking or going through the scales? Static old-school stretching is for post activity (it dulls the nervous system).

[Viva]

Originally posted by Stikki
Static old-school stretching is for post activity (it dulls the nervous system).

Funny, static old school pre-excercise stretching is all I ever do. The one time I said "fuck it" and stopped stretching, I tore my right hammy in a little less than a week.

What do you mean by "dulls the nervous system"?

[Stikki]

Originally posted by Viva
What do you mean by "dulls the nervous system"?

Static stretching doesn't excite the nervous system. It sort of "puts it to sleep". Before an activity you want to excite the nervous system, thus the need for dynamic warm-up. Studies also show a reduction in strength when static stretching is performed right before a lift.

Here's a link with some general info. (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=464853)

[altagirl]

Originally posted by Stikki
Don't worry about it. As soon as you get back on the snow your quad strength will skyrocket, thus negating the ham>quad ratio.

Elite sprinters and nfl d-backs often have ham/quad ratios of 120/100. Most speed athletes are at least 1/1 if not greater in the hams. (A big key is hip extension strength, not just knee flexion.) Most athletes don't directly train quads, quad strength is a byproduct of everything else (squats, lunges, plyos, running, etc.).

The partial leg extensions help a little for stabilization. I would also suggest reverse lunges (front foot stays centered under body and back foot drops back) for the vmo.

Also, throw in some stiff leg deadlifts. This will increase hip extension strength and flexibilty.

Cool, I've been doing stiff leg deadlifts for like 2 months now. I'll have to try the reverse lunges (I've been doing walking lunges). And other than that I'll quit worrying about it...

We were just discussing stretching in the other thread about pre-season training. I had to double-check what thread I was in for a minute...

[Xover]

Originally posted by altagirl
(I've been doing walking lunges).

I'll bet Mr. AG hasn't been doing these with ya; if he even did 1 set he wouldn't be able to walk right for a week :D

[Stikki]

Originally posted by Mountain Junkie
While we're on topic, does anyone have any good excercises for the VMO that don't involve a leg extension machine? There's a couple I do, but I'm looking for something that really isolates the VMO.

Tx

You could always do EMS (Electronic muscle stimulation). Any full range squating movement will activate the vmo. Full squats (as deep as you can go) will do the trick. Also try reverse barbell lunges.

http://www.defrancotraining.com/pics/images/pics/pic_jones_01.jpg

[altagirl]

Originally posted by Xover
I'll bet Mr. AG hasn't been doing these with ya; if he even did 1 set he wouldn't be able to walk right for a week :D

Heh, I remember stumbling around for a week after my first day back to a serious leg workout... fun, fun, fun! You think you get some good leg muscles from the biking, but it's not the same...

I've been trying to drag him to the gym with me, but haven't had any luck yet. He's currently paying for the most expensive, per use, gym membership ever. I got Rotney's wife to go and be my lifting buddy in the meantime... which is good. We try to convince each other that doing laps of walking lunges is just a tortuous version of telemarking. ;)

[AltaPowderDaze]

In reality, as long as you are not training one muscle harder than the other you should be fine. as for the machines, they are not a good indicator of equality. each machine is different interms of weight and pullys. on one leg ext you can lift 120 fine and on another you will struggle to get 100 for example. so it is very hard to compare leg ext to hams. it is natural for the quad to be stonger by a little. its just when you are abnormally unbalance that you run into problems. muscles fire in a particular sequence and apparently it takes longer for a weaker muscle to fire (from what i understand). training the upper range of motion is a good idea for rehab, but you should be able to train ful range by ski season. plyometrics will get those muscles firing faster and prevent lag time between them. do a couple basic exercises and you should be fine-- leg ext, leg curl, leg press, abduction, adduction, calf ext, abs, and back ext. that should work for your lower body day. should only take an hour or so. add in ployometrics about two months before you start skiing. don't neglect to do upper a few times a week. hope this makes sence. :)

[altagirl]

With the leg extensions, I was told never, ever, do the full ROM again, no matter how strong my legs are. It puts a shearing stress on the ACL.

And I have about 3 ski seasons on my reconstructed ACL, one after the partial menisectomy. They've been feeling fine skiing, I'm just working on keeping them strong to prevent any future damage.

[AltaPowderDaze]

good call. i've only done my mcl, so i am training hard. you should be fine with the rest of the exercises. ask your pt about a new program. if you do the same stuff over and over you hit plateaus. i don't do any dead lifts or squats anymore unless its on a smith press. too much room for bad form. I've been around weights all my life and have good form, but i get better gains from other exercises. plus i have had back surgery and supposed to have another.

[Stikki]

Yeah, smith machine, great if you want to create shearing forces on your knees and eliminate stabilizer muscles. Do you ski leaning against a metal rack?

Skiing is a dynamic activity, why not train in a way that? Adductor, abductor, leg extension, and most other machines are a waste of time when training for sport. Initial supervised rehab is one thing but after that the body needs to work in a synchronized manner.

AG, your program looks good. As long as you are achieving what you want and making gains then stick with it. You can always manipulate variables like sets, reps, load, tempo, order of exercise, etc. rather than the exercises themselves to break plateaus.

[AltaPowderDaze]

Originally posted by Stikki


Skiing is a dynamic activity, why not train in a way that?

My point is that for me, training early on to build mass in major muscles without fu(king up my back is good. As mention, about tow months before November I switch over to plyometrics (dynamic activities) that build the secondary muscles and explosive power. I've never had any problems with my knees until my mcl so i just use the smith to take stress off the back. if you get your knees far enough infront of you i takes a ton of stress off the lower lumbar area. again knees not a concearn, but they are a hell of a lot stronger for it. I guess if you use any machine wrong you can really screw yourself up. just know what you're doing on the machine and if it hurts, stop!

[Stikki]

^^^ Whatever floats your boat. Be careful.

[GS828]

With the leg extensions, I was told never, ever, do the full ROM again, no matter how strong my legs are. It puts a shearing stress on the ACL.

And I have about 3 ski seasons on my reconstructed ACL, one after the partial menisectomy. They've been feeling fine skiing, I'm just working on keeping them strong to prevent any future damage.

I wonder if that had something to do with mine retearing. My PT said those were fine. :T

[Patches]

What AltaPowderDaze said... I've read the studies on this (years ago). The studies measured the force people generated in a static position (i.e. not moving an actual weight), and as I recall were at one arbitrary point of knee flexion. Basically they fixed people into a device that locked in a specific angle for the hip joint and a specific angle for the knee joint. It was not possible to actually move either joint. Then they had the people tried to move their foot one direction to measure knee flexion strength and then try to move it the other way to measure knee extension strength.