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View Full Version : Disabling ABS; How bad an idea is this?



focus
11-21-2008, 06:37 AM
This is my first winter driving a vehicle w/ ABS as a daily driver. It's scary.

Increased stopping distances on snowpacked roads - which I drive on a lot - doesn't really seem acceptable... especially going down hills - which I also drive on a lot. I know how to use the brakes w/out losing control.

Anybody else do this? Feel free to pile on and beat the idea out of my head...

haydukelives
11-21-2008, 07:00 AM
have it checked

that being said,a mouse ate the wire to mine and i havent bothered to fix it

axebiker
11-21-2008, 07:16 AM
My Pontiac Vibe is the first car I've had in a while without ABS, and it really hasn't bothered me much to be without it. I think you have to have a model with traction control to have ABS on the Vibe. I don't miss it much - it always kinda startled me when it would kick in. I'm sure it has it's advantages though.

wrinkledpants
11-21-2008, 07:40 AM
This is my first winter driving a vehicle w/ ABS as a daily driver. It's scary.

Increased stopping distances on snowpacked roads - which I drive on a lot - doesn't really seem acceptable... especially going down hills - which I also drive on a lot. I know how to use the brakes w/out losing control.

Anybody else do this? Feel free to pile on and beat the idea out of my head...

Unless you are a professional driver, it's highly unlikely that you can modulate your brakes perfectly such that you are right on the verge of loosing traction without locking them up. The ABS system is incredibly sensitive and can determine if a wheel has lost traction far sooner than you can.

If you are on a vacant stretch of road, and you mash the brakes locking them up, you could probably pump them enough to maintain control. I doubt you can pump them as fast as the ABS can though.

Now the car in front of you stops all of a sudden, your instinct is going to be mash the brake pedal to the floor. It takes a very skilled driver to remember to pump the brakes in a panic situation.

All the road tests prove as well that ABS will stop the car faster than 95% of the drivers can on their own. If you have an AWD car, the ABS is tied into that and you CANNOT disconnect it.

Your increased stopping distances are probably due to the new vehicle you are driving, not the ABS.

Try it for yourself, pull the ABS fuse and measure how fast you can stop on the same stretch of road while staying in your lane. I can almost guarantee it will be shorter with ABS.

Now days, in some cars the ABS is tied in with some kind of anti-skid program as well. In my car, any type of slide and the car brakes individual wheels and will literally straighten itself out. It's incredible. I usually have it off during aggressive driving, but when I'm just cruising in bad weather, I always leave it on just in case. Even with the "ESP" off, the ABS system is still on and working.

Leave your ABS on. You'll get used to it, and eventually, wonder how you went without it.

Caucasian Asian
11-21-2008, 07:44 AM
What kind of winter tires are you running on this car? That will affect your stopping distance as well.

Sensisnow
11-21-2008, 07:47 AM
I actually prefer NOT using ABS in the winter. If you know how to manually pump the brakes, you can almost always stop in a shorter distance without ABS. You also get a lot more feedback from your brakes, knowing when they're locking up, etc. if you pull the ABS fuse once the snow starts to fall.

This may not be the best route for everyone, but it's what I've always done and it's worked well for me.

Woodsie
11-21-2008, 08:04 AM
As I understand it the most effective braking you will get is smooth braking just before the wheels lose traction. The pumping is just to control the the skid if you do lose traction. On a car with ABS the most effective braking is to brake to the point just before the ABS kicks in. Once the ABS kicks in, you are braking too hard and this will increase your stopping distance over "perfect" braking. But the stopping distance will not increase anywhere near as much as if you had no ABS and the car skidded or you try and control the skid by pumping the brakes yourself.

So on different surfaces practice finding the braking point where the ABS kicks in and then trying to pull the braking back to just before that point.

Or that is how it got explained to me, and matches my experiences of maximum braking on Motos.

focus
11-21-2008, 08:45 AM
It's an '02 Camry. No AWD. New-ish blizzaks all the way around.

From wikipedia:
"In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid — though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces like gravel or slippery surfaces like snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking."

This is borne out elsewhere, including my own experience. I'm all for ABS in summer driving.

I'll play around with this on a straight, empty, snowy road. We've got lots of those around here.

Trouthead
11-21-2008, 08:55 AM
ABS does increase distances sometimes over non ABS distances in deep snow, or gravel etc. I don't believe the distance is appreciably different when we are dealing with smooth packed snow or patchy ice spots.

What ABS does do effectively is allow one to maintain some degree of steering control with just about maximum braking. You can still steer as the brakes are not locked up. So while the stopping distance might be a bit longer in an ABS car, you do have the ability to steer around potential problems.

I live in Wyoming, drive Togwotee pass every weekend and when sommething happens unexpectedly in front of me, I can mash the pedal to the floor and still have steering. I too believe I might be able to modulate the brakes better on my own, but I also like to think Ferrari should be calling for me to fill the empty F-1 seat. both are probably fantasy thinking.

Keep your ABS connnected. It is for the oh shit times.

Arty50
11-21-2008, 09:36 AM
I freaked the hell out when the ABS first kicked in on ice in my new car. Why? Because I was used to pumping my brakes on my old Jeep. So I learned not to pump my brakes anymore and apply smooth brake pressure instead. Now I love it. The wiki quote above is poorly written. I actually find that ABS is a godsend for icy conditions. It does a much better job than I did before, and I used to think I was pretty good with my brakes.

focus
11-21-2008, 09:50 AM
I freaked the hell out when the ABS first kicked in on ice in my new car. Why? Because I was used to pumping my brakes on my old Jeep. So I learned not to pump my brakes anymore and apply smooth brake pressure instead. Now I love it. The wiki quote above is poorly written. I actually find that ABS is a godsend for icy conditions. It does a much better job than I did before, and I used to think I was pretty good with my brakes.

The main point of the wiki article that I was getting at, that it does indeed address poorly, is that ABS keeps the tires skimming on the topmost layer rather than allowing them to both dig down to more substantial layers and to create a snowplow effect in front of the tires.

counterfeitfake
11-21-2008, 11:27 AM
All ABS systems are not created equal. My 02 WRX has a system so hypervigilant that it routinely spazzes out under light braking on manhole covers in the rain. They actually released a software upgrade for it that I haven't gotten yet.

I believe a practiced driving enthusiast can do a better job than ABS. ABS has the advantage that you don't need skill or practice to maintain control of your car under hard braking. Most drivers do not have skill or practice, so ABS is a great thing for safety on our roads. But if you know what you're doing you might find ABS pissing you off. If this is you, go ahead and pull the circuit breaker. Just be sure you know what you're doing.

kidwoo
11-21-2008, 12:59 PM
What ABS does do effectively is allow one to maintain some degree of steering control with just about maximum braking. You can still steer as the brakes are not locked up. So while the stopping distance might be a bit longer in an ABS car, you do have the ability to steer around potential problems.



Yeah that's about the only useful thing I can see with it. I drive some ford and GM trucks for work that all have ABS. It's really great when you can feel yourself decelerating at a nice even pace and then the ABS kicks in and you start moving again.

I hate the shit. On a dry road, I had someone slam their brakes on in front of me but with plenty of room to stop. I got on the brakes, started coming to a stop and then wham-o, ABS kicks in and I'm now moving at the car again. Luckily I still had enough room to just lay off the brakes and just steer off the road. Without the ABS I have no doubt in my mind I could have come to a complete stop well before hitting the person in front of me.

I know the theory, but in the trucks I've driven it's friggin dangerous. I'm sure there are some better implementations than ford and GM are doing but I have yet to experience it. I'm about to get a new truck and that's the first thing that's going.

splat
11-21-2008, 01:26 PM
ABS does increase distances sometimes over non ABS distances in deep snow, or gravel etc. I don't believe the distance is appreciably different when we are dealing with smooth packed snow or patchy ice spots.

What ABS does do effectively is allow one to maintain some degree of steering control with just about maximum braking. You can still steer as the brakes are not locked up. So while the stopping distance might be a bit longer in an ABS car, you do have the ability to steer around potential problems.

I live in Wyoming, drive Togwotee pass every weekend and when sommething happens unexpectedly in front of me, I can mash the pedal to the floor and still have steering. I too believe I might be able to modulate the brakes better on my own, but I also like to think Ferrari should be calling for me to fill the empty F-1 seat. both are probably fantasy thinking.

Keep your ABS connnected. It is for the oh shit times.

Ditto, most people don't realize you can steer on slippety shit with ABS better than standard brakes.
I have praised mine on winter roads when I've dodged a pileup and had to brake and steer at the same time to avoid the clusterfuck.

Sirshredalot
11-21-2008, 02:29 PM
Just find the wiring diagram for your car and install a switch that allows you to turn it off. As counterfeitfake noted above, some systems are really sensitive, and a lot of people on the Suby enthusiast forums that I read install an ABS kill switch. But most of those people race their cars, so they know how to threshold brake much better than the general population. Not that you have to be a pro driver or something to figure it out, you just have to spend enough time behind the wheel with the car at its limits to have the instincts when you need them.

PNWbrit
11-21-2008, 02:40 PM
All.... My.....spazzes....I believe.....practiced driving enthusiast..... better job........ advantage.....skill...... practice......maintain...... Most......skill or practice... if you know what you're doing .....pissing you off.....go ahead..... pull the circuit breaker.....know what you're doing.

As with sex, 75% of the population think they have above average skillz.

Hugh Conway
11-21-2008, 02:42 PM
This is my first winter driving a vehicle w/ ABS as a daily driver. It's scary.

Increased stopping distances on snowpacked roads - which I drive on a lot - doesn't really seem acceptable... especially going down hills - which I also drive on a lot. I know how to use the brakes w/out losing control.

Anybody else do this? Feel free to pile on and beat the idea out of my head...

You regularly drive fast enough on the snow your wheels are locking up?

How about slowing the fuck down


As with sex, 75% of the population think they have above average skillz.

In maggot land more like 95%..... but the solo crash is never their fault :rolleyes:

Snow Dog
11-21-2008, 02:46 PM
Like others have said, the quality of the ABS is all over the place and sometimes they're not working right either. Like kidwoo my truck would release when coming up to a stop sigh but it was just a dirty connector. A good cleaning and it all worked again. You have to work with the ABS, not against it.

Sirshredalot
11-21-2008, 02:48 PM
As with sex, 75% of the population think they have above average skillz.

I'm realistic and base my opinions on fact. I have a perfect insurance rating and decent autocross results. Hoping to get into some winter rally or ice racing this winter. Thus, I'm either a pretty good driver or just very lucky. Probably some combo of the two.

However, I'm single and there is a long list of women with whom things have not worked out. That could easily be because I'm bad in bed, or it could just because I'm a dirtbag ski bum. Probably some combo of the two.

PNWbrit
11-21-2008, 02:49 PM
In maggot land more like 95%..... but the solo crash is never their fault :rolleyes:


you just have to spend enough time behind the ........................... at its limits to have the instincts when you need them.

Fill in the blanks as appropriate?

samhop
11-21-2008, 03:04 PM
if your abs kick in slower than 15 mph you might have a bad sensor. magnetic junk on sensor magnets can make this happen and will result in much longer stopping distance +15mph also. I have cleaned with air gun w/out removing wheel but i knew where it was, have also had to pull wheel to clean. may or may not show up on code reader. first time i had jest had front end work and once picked up slag spinning tiers at a ship yard.
brake work is cheep considering the alternative.
sam

Hugh Conway
11-21-2008, 03:06 PM
Fill in the blanks as appropriate?

I guess having a perfect insurance record means he's a better driver than Damon Hill or Jochen Rindt?

PNWbrit
11-21-2008, 03:59 PM
once picked up slag

Who of us hasn't at one point or another?

Nothing to be ashamed of.

Sirshredalot
11-21-2008, 04:00 PM
I guess having a perfect insurance record means he's a better driver than Damon Hill or Jochen Rindt?

Dude, don't get all butthurt just because you have half a dozen moving violations and no competitive racing experience. That just means you suck at driving and should probably not be allowed behind the wheel.

It's not a big deal to admit that. I mean, I admitted in that post that I may very well be mediocre in bed. Just ask your daughter. :fmicon:

Hugh Conway
11-21-2008, 04:21 PM
Dude, don't get all butthurt just because you have half a dozen moving violations and no competitive racing experience. That just means you suck at driving and should probably not be allowed behind the wheel.

It's not a big deal to admit that. I mean, I admitted in that post that I may very well be mediocre in bed. Just ask your daughter. :fmicon:

waving your dick about autocross is like braggin about fucking my nonexistant progeny

focus
11-21-2008, 05:03 PM
You regularly drive fast enough on the snow your wheels are locking up?

How about slowing the fuck down


Are you really an idiot? ...or is this just an act?

Driving fast doesn't make my wheels lock up. Braking does.

Driving straight down the road isn't a problem. It's stop signs at the bottom of steep hills in town, which i encounter a lot. I drive like a little old lady in these situations, literally crawling along, but have still had instances where ABS kicks in and sends me out into traffic. I've been lucky so far.

Potholes will send it off, too, even on dry roads, so maybe it is malfunctioning? I'll look into that, but I'm not holding out too much hope on that front.

PNWbrit
11-21-2008, 05:25 PM
autocross is like braggin about fucking my nonexistant progeny

Both would probably happen in an empty Walmart parking lot? Accompanied by loud squealing, grabbing for the parking brake lever and followed by slight nausea?

:biggrin:

counterfeitfake
11-21-2008, 05:41 PM
As with sex, 75% of the population think they have above average skillz.

As with sex, you don't know how good I am at it.

Sirshredalot
11-21-2008, 06:49 PM
fucking my nonexistant progeny

Well, why don't you have a daughter for me to fuck? Can't you get it up, old man? Your wife, mom, and sister are clearly too old and busted for me if you're dropping references to F1 drivers who died in 1970. :the_finge

You are right that autocross is kinda goofy. My experience with it is pretty limited, to be honest. I'm not trying to dickwave: I'm just discounting your opinion because you're a shitty driver and you don't know what you're talking about. To return to the topic of this thread: an ABS bypass can be worthwhile in the hands of a good driver. For the record, I haven't done it to my car because I don't race it enough yet, and I think I'd probably end up leaving it on for daily driving anyways.

fortysix&2
11-21-2008, 09:13 PM
...
that being said,a mouse ate the wire to mine and i havent bothered to fix it

Damn squirrel got mine on an 03 Taco. Dealer quoted a couple hundred bucks to fix, so I haven't had ABS for 3 years. I have had a couple incidents where it would have been nice to have...maybe I should fix.

GlimmerIII
11-21-2008, 11:12 PM
I'm I wrong, I thought then outlawed it in F1. On a mixed surface you really think you can stop faster than without it. Get real, I just use to like turning the traction control off in the E55 to do BURN OUTS. Blue smoke out both wells.

Hugh Conway
11-21-2008, 11:22 PM
Driving fast doesn't make my wheels lock up. Braking does.

Awesomeness

Obstruction
11-22-2008, 08:38 AM
Like everything else in life ABS is a trade off. It limits the ability of the driver to throw out the anchor and bite down to pavement sometimes but on slippery shit hard braking will invariably make the car want to skid sideways. This may be through no fault of the driver (uneven road/slop surface, uneven brake wear, uneven tire wear).

The point of the ABS is to help the driver retain control of the car's direction as Splat and others have noted.

And as others have noted you would be hard pressed to "out brake" an ABS system.

Thats said I drive my rwd car w/snows pretty aggressively in New England and my ABS kicks in less than a couple of times a year.

And my kid has a '95 Camry beater with a blown ABS control and it drives fine (ok, every body panel has been dinged or replaced but I blame that on operator error.)

kidwoo
11-22-2008, 12:34 PM
Damn squirrel got mine on an 03 Taco.


Can I borrow your squirrel.



Like everything else in life ABS is a trade off. It limits the ability of the driver to throw out the anchor and bite down to pavement sometimes but on slippery shit hard braking will invariably make the car want to skid sideways.

Yeah it's kind of interesting. Riding mountain bikes on dry dusty trails every year has actually improved my 'don't hit the brakes unless you're going straight' technique in a car.

I'm so programmed to be light on the brakes in snow, I honestly don't remember ever having a problem with ABS on ice/snow because they've never engaged. I just can't stand the fact that they engage on dry pavement where there IS traction and you can feel the car start moving again when it really was decelerating nice and evenly. I'd be cool with it if I could only have it activated between the months of november and april :D

XXX-er
11-22-2008, 07:19 PM
the ABS on my VW golf wasnt working for a year or 2 (a wheel sensor needed replacing) so I got to try the car without ABS and IMO the car stops better with ABS ...I got it fixed last season

next yer gona tell me you can drive better than ESC in emergency situations ?

uglymoney
11-22-2008, 07:36 PM
Here is what I do with my 02 Outback with ABS and snow tires. It takes practice. Practice often so that you do it instinctively when needed. An ABS shutoff switch would work better but I'm not going to go to that hassle.

In deep snow and slush the ABS greatly increases stopping distance since the ABS modulates so fast that no snow is allowed to build up in front of the tires. If I am in a situation like that I simply turn off the ignition to disable the ABS and come to a safe fast stop.

You can feel a tremendous increase in braking g force under deep snow/slush conditions when ABS is disabled. Ice, packed snow, rain, dry, variable, most other conditions I'd never think of disabling abs since it works well most of the time. If in variable conditions like hardpack grooves with deep snow simply keep car on hardpack if possible and utilize the ABS.

beaterdit
11-22-2008, 07:37 PM
I don't think it's a good idea. When it kicks in, it's a good signal to back off the pedal until it cuts out. Then you're at the threshold.

BUT...

My friend who grew up in VT used to take the fuse out in his Subie and he claimed that when you absolutely positively had to stop the car fast you could lock 'em up, slam it into reverse, gun it and pop the clutch. Sounds crazy I know but he swears by it. Def would take some practice and prolly not too good for your car. Modern cars prolly won't let you do that either.

FWIW, he now rolls with ABS in his F-350.

Arty50
11-23-2008, 01:45 AM
The main point of the wiki article that I was getting at, that it does indeed address poorly, is that ABS keeps the tires skimming on the topmost layer rather than allowing them to both dig down to more substantial layers and to create a snowplow effect in front of the tires.

Sorry, I didn't want to get into the details of it. But it's dead wrong when it comes to ice. ABS rules ice in my experience.

wandering, not lost
11-23-2008, 06:34 AM
When I was a kid my Uncle Bob used to turn the ABS off and open the sunroof when he would take me skiing. I thought he was the shit. What's cooler than getting snowed on on the way to and from the mountain?

He also ran into a snowbank once "on purpose" and I believed him ( I was 9).

I'm pretty sure if I did any of those things now with his daughters in my car I'd be in deep shit.

wrinkledpants
11-23-2008, 07:16 AM
Here is what I do with my 02 Outback with ABS and snow tires. It takes practice. Practice often so that you do it instinctively when needed. An ABS shutoff switch would work better but I'm not going to go to that hassle.

.... I simply turn off the ignition to disable the ABS and come to a safe fast stop.



Are you fucking retarded? You CANNOT disable the ABS in your car. Shutting off the car is an even worse idea. The ABS is a crucial part of your AWD system. Do you think your car can just magically control the amount of power going to each wheel? No, it can't. None of the AWD systems can without ABS. If one tire begins to slip during acceleration, your ABS system clamps down on that tire, slowing it down, forcing the drive energy to the wheel with traction. This is the same way traction control works. The car isn't magically slowing down the tire, it's the brakes that are doing it and it's controlled by the ABS system.

A good multi channel ABS system will save your life and in 95% of the situations in which you'll be applying max brake pressure, it will shorten your stopping distance.

If you have to turn your car off, then I'm sorry, but you are seriously a shitty driver. F1 racing in europe banned ABS systems as it was an "electronic drivers aid." Drivers could brake deeper into corners and the ABS system helped keep wheels from braking loose during hard accelerations. Professional drivers will tell you they choose ABS when it's legal. Some of the most notoriously fast cars around a track have an incredibly advanced ABS system. Humans simply cannot react fast enough to out brake an ABS system.

I would bet my right leg that in a genuine panic situation in which you had to evasively maneuver and brake at the same time, you wouldn't be able to steer around something while applying perfect threshold braking. Coming to a stop sign that you know is there and have done a thousand times does not count. Flying down the interstate and all of a sudden tail lights come all over the place does count. In situations where you have literally less than a split second to react, there is no fucking way you can beat an ABS system.

No offense uglymoney - but your tactic of turning off the car is the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard. You need to learn to drive your damn car properly.

Here is a video from Fifth Gear demonstrating ABS, traction control, and electronic skid protection in winter. It's at the Bosch facility which is the manufacturer of most of the ABS systems out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-hHWSQhKuc

focus
11-23-2008, 07:45 AM
^^^ Snowplowing's real. As a skier, you should be able to appreciate that.

1. Nobody's debating what ABS does -- I think the industry's done a pretty good job of educating the public on that. It's a myth that ABS always stops the vehicle faster than non-ABS, however. In gravel, snowpack, deep snow, and slush there are more variables at work than merely kinetic vs. static friction.

2. It's a good point that disabling ABS will kill my TCS, which is pretty minimally effective on FWD, but probably still helps.

3. I can sure as shit outdrive any ESC system. I actually have four brake pedals in my car - one for each wheel. I'm a marvel.

Seems dirty sensors can make your ABS touchy? I'll have to look into that. The problems I encounter are all low-speed, in-town. I'm a pretty cautious driver.

(btw, whoever mentioned the guy who pops his car into reverse to stop faster? That IS idiotic. Friction doesn't work that way. A deeper explanation of that is buried in the airplane/treadmill thread.)

bagtagley
11-23-2008, 08:14 AM
Are you fucking retarded?

Lot of anger and name calling. Seems unnecessary.

Shutting a car off doesn't effect it's ability to brake, except for that fact that you're eliminating any power assist. Some Subarus with AT will downshift when the ABS system activates, but that's not what you're talking about.

Also, Subaru's AWD systems use either viscous coupling or a variable transfer clutch to regulate power to traction wheels...none rely on braking or ABS. I believe some models of the STi have traction control, but that's in addition to the AWD system

Finally, your youtube link discusses ESP, which is traction control. It doesn't really apply to uglymoney's situation as his car doesn't have traction control.

focus
11-23-2008, 09:46 AM
Lot of anger and name calling. Seems unnecessary.

Shutting a car off doesn't effect it's ability to brake, except for that fact that you're eliminating any power assist.

Shouldn't even be eliminating that. Most power assist brake systems give you 2-4 full pumps with the engine off.

Of course, in emergencies on a slick surface you may well need all and more of those pumps....

XXX-er
11-23-2008, 10:04 AM
[QUOTE=focus;2111694
Seems dirty sensors can make your ABS touchy? I'll have to look into that. The problems I encounter are all low-speed, in-town. I'm a pretty cautious driver.

(btw, whoever mentioned the guy who pops his car into reverse to stop faster? That IS idiotic. Static friction doesn't work that way. A deeper explanation of that is buried in the airplane/treadmill thread.)[/QUOTE]

on my VW the system knows if there is a sensor problem ,it disables ABS and turns on the warning light .The brakes still work fine except there is no abs ,it logs a fault in the system and if you have a device to read the logs or go to a dealer the system calls out the exact fault.It is not a problem that needs to be reset in the system just replce the sensor & things are back to normal ,I don't know if cars are like that but thats my abs failure experiance


turning off the car and or going into reverse sounds like a darwin move

uglymoney
11-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Shouldn't even be eliminating that. Most power assist brake systems give you 2-4 full pumps with the engine off.

Of course, in emergencies on a slick surface you may well need all and more of those pumps....

You get plenty of pumps for the situations I am talking about. Deep snow and slush where the car stops fastest with the tires completely locked up - not much pumping involved. Sure you might have to let up a time or two in order to keep the car straight but plenty of assist is left to lock the brakes up. You can lock the brakes up on really slippery situations with no assist anyway.

No offense taken at the retarded comment by winkledpants. In his little speech he is exclusively talking about traction situations where ABS works well. I am exclusively talking about deep snow/slush situations where locking the tires up to form a damn of snow in front of the wheels works best, steering around something has already been ruled out.

Also my car is a stick with no traction control. ABS has nothing to do with the AWD.

Carry on retards ;)

uglymoney
11-23-2008, 11:12 AM
Sorry, I didn't want to get into the details of it. But it's dead wrong when it comes to ice. ABS rules ice in my experience.

ABS with snowtires slay the ice.

Nathan Explosion
11-23-2008, 12:10 PM
Yeah that's about the only useful thing I can see with it. I drive some ford and GM trucks for work that all have ABS. It's really great when you can feel yourself decelerating at a nice even pace and then the ABS kicks in and you start moving again.

I hate the shit. On a dry road, I had someone slam their brakes on in front of me but with plenty of room to stop. I got on the brakes, started coming to a stop and then wham-o, ABS kicks in and I'm now moving at the car again. Luckily I still had enough room to just lay off the brakes and just steer off the road. Without the ABS I have no doubt in my mind I could have come to a complete stop well before hitting the person in front of me.

I know the theory, but in the trucks I've driven it's friggin dangerous. I'm sure there are some better implementations than ford and GM are doing but I have yet to experience it. I'm about to get a new truck and that's the first thing that's going.

Either those trucks are a great example of why GM and Ford are struggling, or there is something mechanically wrong with your ABS. As others have said, you shouldn't be getting that effect under 15 MPH.

My 06 WRX has damn good ABS, which is also easy to turn off. In the almost three years and 48,000 miles I've driven the car, it's engaged twice, and both times saved my ass.

kidwoo
11-23-2008, 12:54 PM
Either those trucks are a great example of why GM and Ford are struggling, or there is something mechanically wrong with your ABS. As others have said, you shouldn't be getting that effect under 15 MPH.

My 06 WRX has damn good ABS, which is also easy to turn off. In the almost three years and 48,000 miles I've driven the car, it's engaged twice, and both times saved my ass.

Yeah I don't doubt that these trucks have a crappy implementation of the system. There's nothing wrong with them though, they're fairly new trucks and we keep them on a very regular maintenance schedule.

But I've never rear ended someone, never had to ditch into a snowbank and have never gotten stuck in these trucks or in driving my own 99 tacoma......I know how to drive fairly well and safely. One of these was a Ford expedition before we sold it, so it's not just GM btw. I HAVE had to to drive off the road to avoid someone on dry pavement when the ABS kicked in though like I mentioned earlier.

Incidently though, the only time I've ever been 'almost' stuck was in that expedition. Driving a dirt road in spring time I came up on a snow bank and started doing front wheel laps fwd/reverse/fwd etc on the thing to compress it. The front wheels punched through on one pass and with the thing in "4wd" and the rear wheels on dirt, the front wheels just kept spinning as the chassis rested on the snow......which means the 4wd system wasn't true 4wd, something more akin to AWD. Fucking pathetic. Unless toyota buys Ford or GM I will NEVER own an american made truck.

Not ABS related but just another example of shitty implementation of a feature. I don't doubt that subie does pretty much EVERYTHING better.

philippeR
11-23-2008, 01:38 PM
Where's roo when you need him ?

wrinkledpants
11-23-2008, 02:43 PM
No offense taken at the retarded comment by winkledpants. In his little speech he is exclusively talking about traction situations where ABS works well. I am exclusively talking about deep snow/slush situations where locking the tires up to form a damn of snow in front of the wheels works best, steering around something has already been ruled out.

Also my car is a stick with no traction control. ABS has nothing to do with the AWD.

Carry on retards ;)

Sorry I shouldn't be calling you names. I get a little excited when people (other forums) talk about how they are so much better than ABS. My sister was nearly killed when an douche in a BMW 330 T-boned her at 50 mph. He just wasn't paying attention and ran a red light while my sis was waiting to turn left. His ABS module was toast and he decided NOT to get it fixed because he thought he could out break ABS. That was his statement to the police officer since he hit her with the steering wheel fully locked to the right. He tracks his car often so I'm sure in a controlled environment he is a descent driver, but in this case, he just panicked and locked them up. The cop figures he might have been able to maneuver around her had he fixed his ABS module. Anyway, just wanted to give you some history on my non ABS experience.

And someone posted about Subbies and their viscous clutch systems. Most AWD cars do not use a viscous clutch but utilize the brakes to distribute power between the wheels on an axle. I was referring to AWD in general. Subbies are king when it comes to AWD technology. ABS, in your case, would only intervene as a traction control interface..... which you don't have.

Anyways, sorry about the name calling. I just start thinking any who wants to disable their ABS might find themselves in a similar situation someday.

focus
11-23-2008, 02:48 PM
The ABS sensors were agreeably easy to get to on my car, so I pulled those and cleaned all the gunk off of them. We'll see if that makes a difference.

Nathan Explosion
11-23-2008, 05:16 PM
Incidently though, the only time I've ever been 'almost' stuck was in that expedition. Driving a dirt road in spring time I came up on a snow bank and started doing front wheel laps fwd/reverse/fwd etc on the thing to compress it. The front wheels punched through on one pass and with the thing in "4wd" and the rear wheels on dirt, the front wheels just kept spinning as the chassis rested on the snow......which means the 4wd system wasn't true 4wd, something more akin to AWD. Fucking pathetic. Unless toyota buys Ford or GM I will NEVER own an american made truck.


I think they've done the same thing on the Explorers. My dad ended up with one as a rental when he came out to ski, a V6, and I've never been in such a dog. 0-60 in about an hour and a half. He was at a house with an underground garage, and after a 10 inch dump here in February, the "4WD" Explorer couldn't even made it up the driveway. Very similar situation, with a drift around the garage door. This was immediately after my subie made it out on the first try, plowing snow the whole way with the rear bumper. I ended up using a strap and the tow hook on the front of my car to help him get out. Absolutely pathetic.

Yukonrider
11-23-2008, 06:26 PM
The ABS in my truck is, and always will be on. Sure I can brake better than it coming up to a stop sign in deep snow, but if I ever encounter a panic braking situation, I'm pretty sure that the only thing ill remember to do is stand on the brakes and avoid whatever object in my path is biggest.

I've never had an issue with it off road, but my truck automatically turns it off when I lock the rear differential.

If your turning your ABS on in town, and not expecting it you need to slow down. When mine comes on, I am always expecting it.

Hugh Conway
11-23-2008, 08:15 PM
In gravel, snowpack, deep snow, and slush there are more variables at work than merely kinetic vs. static friction.

bwahahaha

focus
11-23-2008, 09:33 PM
bwahahaha

:rolleyes2

Elaborate, Hugh. Try.

You really aren't as smart as you think you are.

Hugh Conway
11-23-2008, 10:17 PM
You really aren't as smart as you think you are.

says the boy disabling his ABS because "he's better than it" :yourock:

gisforgaper
11-23-2008, 10:50 PM
says the boy disabling his ABS because "he's better than it" :yourock:

Not so fast...

It's all dependent on the calibration and mapped thresholds of the stability system and ABS application.

I've raced all manner of rubber tyred vehicles in my life (from dirtbikes at age 6 to shifter karts to formula continental and Barber Dodge) and I have an above average feel for the limit. Thus, what follows may not be true for everyone.

When driving our Touareg on snow covered roads, I can easily threshold brake the car at a higher rate of deceleration than if I just stomp the pedal and let the ABS take care of modulating brake pressure (you can actually feel the car lurch forward as I increase pedal pressure to the point that the ABS begins to fire) . The same is true upon acceleration, especially with the diffs locked. The mapping of the stability system simply does not allow for enough wheel spin for the limit on the slickest surfaces to be reached.

In contrast, the dynamic driving mode on our M3 is very, very good on slick surfaces. I'm a well practiced racer in the rain, and my lap times still drop several tenths when I engage the dynamic traction control/stability (although the normal fully engaged mode is quite a bit slower, again slip mapping is too conservative). The behavior on snow covered roads is similar.

It's all about how well the stability system exploits the available grip from the car/tire combination. Some are really good, some are not so good.

I'm not saying that yanking the ABS fuse out of the panel is a good idea. However, the idea that on surfaces for which the OPs specific car/tire combination were not mapped right to the hairy edge (or where the program is not sophisticated enough to find it), that an above average drive could eek out a bit more decelerative force than the ABS system is not so far fetched.

Hugh Conway
11-23-2008, 10:56 PM
However, the idea that on surfaces for which the OPs specific car/tire combination were not mapped right to the hairy edge (or where the program is not sophisticated enough to find it), that an above average drive could eek out a bit more decelerative force than the ABS system is not so far fetched.

yes, there's a variety of systems, parameters, yada, yada, read a fucking engineering magazine if you can focus and you'd be overwhelmed by the detail, but it really doesn't matter because real world probability of this mattering = ~0

and yes, again, the answer is slow the fuck down in your douchebag mobile toyota

gisforgaper
11-23-2008, 11:08 PM
yes, there's a variety of systems, parameters, yada, yada, read a fucking engineering magazine if you can focus and you'd be overwhelmed by the detail, but it really doesn't matter because real world probability of this mattering = ~0

There are indeed; and I have on my way to earning that degree in Physics that pays for the ski gear.

It's really not all that complicated however. You can take the bottoms up approach and account for every interaction and force, including the beetle caught between the road and the tire, or you can simply map grip vs. radial slip angle. Then you just get a differently shaped curve as conditions change and you don't have to worry about all the little stuff; but I digress.

Look, I totally agree with you. I'm not driving around with the ABS disabled, and my fiance's confidence in poor conditions is a result of these systems working. I'm only saying we should be more receptive to a counter intuitive yet data driven response.

...and I have way too much time on my hands.

Hugh Conway
11-23-2008, 11:30 PM
Look, I totally agree with you. I'm not driving around with the ABS disabled, and my fiance's confidence in poor conditions is a result of these systems working. I'm only saying we should be more receptive to a counter intuitive yet data driven response.

if someone's asking how to get the best response out of their sports car, yes. This is a modificaion designed to optimize performance under specific situations - a good driver in good driving shape.

if someone's asking how to pimp their camry they are a dumbshit.

focus
11-24-2008, 04:51 AM
You're starting to sound shrill, Hugh. I don't understand why this is so important to you.

I'm also not really sure why you hate on my car. I like my boring little sedan. :confused::confused:

I never said I'm better than ABS, just that in some situations it fails, and that those are situations I encounter often. I mentioned earlier it has nothing to do w/ how fast I drive, but I guess your reading comprehension isn't *quite* there. I also suspect you're mostly incapable of elaborating.

so wtf, man?

Bcar
11-24-2008, 08:17 AM
Ill start with Vehicle dynamics / Chassis systems are how I support my skiing addiction. This may be a bit long, but I’ve got a lot of experience here, take it for what its worth…or don’t.

1st off ABS is NOT tied into AWD systems. You are dead wrong on this wrinkledpants (unless you were making a joke). ABS IS tied into stability control (ESP, DSC, etc) and traction control, two very different systems, two very different functions. AWD magically controls the amount of power going to each wheel by using differentials (mechanical, viscous, torsen, etc). Not a single AWD system uses ABS. Traction control systems do use ABS though and on some AWD cars for traction control only, but its more of a band-aid for a crappy/cheap open differentials (re: ones that don’t shift power side to side, front to rear). On open diff AWD/4x4 vehicles that’s why you’ll only see one front wheel spinning like mad in the snow under full throttle.

There are also 3 types of ABS, single channel (one wheel locks, they all pulse), dual channel (usually front left and right rear are in one circuit), and 4 channel, each wheel is independent for lockup and ABS function. Clearly 4-channel is best, most cars have 4 channel these days.

Be careful though, sometimes your ABS fuse is tied into other systems, your owner’s manual may have some info on this. Either way, if you do pull it, practice practice practice with YOUR car in a controlled setting, your brakes may have a different feel with the ABS pump non-functional. I cant stress this enough, practice! In a panic situation, unless you have a LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT of different training under your belt, you’ll lock em up… If go off into a big field with one tree in it, and you’re looking at that one tree, you’ll hit it, look where you want to go…

A car CAN stop better without ABS on snow/ice by locking up, but you can turn with ABS on. You can also have even better stopping distances on snow than locking up or with ABS, but usually only with a very skilled driver threshold braking…. If you don’t have ABS and know how to do a snow-wedge braking maneuver, you’ll get the best stopping distances over anything else including threshold braking.

The benefit of is ABS is its idiot proof and lets your turn, in panic stops not many people know to lift off the brake and then reapply with less pressure. When im in a bad situation, I get off the brakes entirely when I need to turn/swerve, with or without ABS, you loose corning capability when yer on the brakes (ok, there are situations when you need to load/unload part of the car but lets not get into that).

Perfect braking as mentioned, is threshold braking. Where the wheel is slipping maybe 2-4%. This is near impossible to do in the snow/ice, much easier to do on a nice dry racetrack ;) Racecar drivers like ABS for two reasons, one, their ABS is WAAAAaaay different from any system on any street car, it has a much quicker controller and a much different calibration (i.e. closer to the limit), and two, it lets them concentrate on other aspects of driving. They don’t have to worry about locking up the front left, they worry more about nailing that downshift of hitting their apex. Its one less thing for them to have to worry about, and its 100% consistent. But they can still brake harder/later w/o it.

Your best bet regardless if you have ABS/Stability Control/AWD is good snow tires, there is a reason we say “where the rubber meets the road…” Id take a performance RWD car with good snow tires and no electronics over a 4x4/AWD car with all-seasons and all the electronic nannies in the world…all winter long. Tires, Tires, Tires, make more of a difference than ANYTHING.

Even with all the training I’ve had, I can still fk up, and so can the car/electronic nannies. Two years ago I punted my S6 (amazing in the snow!) in a baaaad way in a blizzard driving over wolf creek pass, I tried to drift a corner that I didn’t see (re: I f’d up by not seeing the turn and it was too late to brake) but the ESP/ABS kicked in and turned my rally car move into a straight line punt into/onto a 5’ snow bank..oops…without those electronic nannies I would have saved it with a hero move, but paying more attention to the road at 6am I would have not missed the ‘U’ sign…

Do I like ABS/ESP/Traction control? Yes. Do I like it all the time, NO. Its nice to be able to not drive on the razor edge of concentration and have all those systems on worrying for me when im not driving near the limits. But its also nice for ME to be able to turn them off and pay 100% attention to what the car is doing and to have better control over the vehicle at, near, and under the limits.

Having the power off only disables the ABS and the power assist. Your brakes will still work just as well and just as many times as if you had power on, you just have to push the pedal a lot harder.

In summary, for average joe driver, Id say keep ABS functional and get snow tires. If you spend the time training and practicing and have good equipment, disabling ABS may be worth your while. Take a performance winter driving class, a good instructor will blow your mind on what is possible in the snow… A switch is a good mix Id say.

p.s. Gisforgaper, how do you like the V8 in the M3? Or an E46 CSL? Im guessing you’re talking about M-mode traction control. ;) My M lap times were always faster with the system off, wet or dry, but those little hairs on the back of my neck got waaay more tired with it off in the wet ;) I almost ate HUGE SHIT at Road America in the ‘kink’ with the system on in the dry (re: “it” lifted, not me), the instructor made me keep it on for a few laps, until that happened, I told him he either gets out of the car or the system goes off, either way im not slowing down!

wrinkledpants
11-24-2008, 08:48 AM
Ill start with Vehicle dynamics / Chassis systems are how I support my skiing addiction. This may be a bit long, but I’ve got a lot of experience here, take it for what its worth…or don’t.

1st off ABS is NOT tied into AWD systems. You are dead wrong on this wrinkledpants (unless you were making a joke)....

...Two years ago I punted my S6 (amazing in the snow!)!

Funny you mention you drove an S6 since Quattro is a system based on an open differential. It uses a Torsen center diff to mechanically control the torque to each axle, but uses the individual wheel brakes (monitored and controlled by ABS) to control the torque across the axle. I've got a B5 S4 and after any aggressive driving in the snow/ice, my car will wreak of hot brakes. Older generations of Quattro had a switch to lock the differentials on the dash. If you owned a C4 platform of the S6, you probably had this.

Sorry duuuuude, but I think you are dead wrong here.

Good advice otherwise.

Bcar
11-24-2008, 09:09 AM
Nope... With ESP ON, you'll smell brakes (bec they’ll be working during spirited driving), with ESP off, you wont... The rear I believe uses electronic rear brake pressure regulation that in turn is the traction control when ESP is on, it fools the center torsen into sending more power to the rear during slip thinking the rear has traction, but its really just the brakes slowing the wheels/demanding torque, not due to having traction.

The center diff is a torsen that splits/shifts power front to rear (based on torque demand/traction). The front and rear differentials are both hypoid gear with electronic locking (EDL), E-lockers, not open. Thus you wont see one-wheel-peels, or would that be two wheel peels if you count both axles?? ;) This is why I can shoot 30ft rooster tails out of all 4 tires with ESP off, its great to get rid of tail gaters! ha ha ha.

Audi uses good diffs, like on your S4 (I think at least, Im not sure on B5s), but you get to have a manual with your S4 ;(

C5 S6 BTW.

philippeR
11-24-2008, 09:22 AM
Ill start with Vehicle dynamics / Chassis systems are how I support my skiing addiction. This may be a bit long, but I’ve got a lot of experience here, take it for what its worth…or don’t.

1st off ABS is NOT tied into AWD systems. You are dead wrong on this wrinkledpants (unless you were making a joke). ABS IS tied into stability control (ESP, DSC, etc) and traction control, two very different systems, two very different functions. AWD magically controls the amount of power going to each wheel by using differentials (mechanical, viscous, torsen, etc). Not a single AWD system uses ABS. Traction control systems do use ABS though and on some AWD cars for traction control only, but its more of a band-aid for a crappy/cheap open differentials (re: ones that don’t shift power side to side, front to rear). On open diff AWD/4x4 vehicles that’s why you’ll only see one front wheel spinning like mad in the snow under full throttle.

There are also 3 types of ABS, single channel (one wheel locks, they all pulse), dual channel (usually front left and right rear are in one circuit), and 4 channel, each wheel is independent for lockup and ABS function. Clearly 4-channel is best, most cars have 4 channel these days.

Be careful though, sometimes your ABS fuse is tied into other systems, your owner’s manual may have some info on this. Either way, if you do pull it, practice practice practice with YOUR car in a controlled setting, your brakes may have a different feel with the ABS pump non-functional. I cant stress this enough, practice! In a panic situation, unless you have a LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT of different training under your belt, you’ll lock em up… If go off into a big field with one tree in it, and you’re looking at that one tree, you’ll hit it, look where you want to go…

A car CAN stop better without ABS on snow/ice by locking up, but you can turn with ABS on. You can also have even better stopping distances on snow than locking up or with ABS, but usually only with a very skilled driver threshold braking…. If you don’t have ABS and know how to do a snow-wedge braking maneuver, you’ll get the best stopping distances over anything else including threshold braking.

The benefit of is ABS is its idiot proof and lets your turn, in panic stops not many people know to lift off the brake and then reapply with less pressure. When im in a bad situation, I get off the brakes entirely when I need to turn/swerve, with or without ABS, you loose corning capability when yer on the brakes (ok, there are situations when you need to load/unload part of the car but lets not get into that).

Perfect braking as mentioned, is threshold braking. Where the wheel is slipping maybe 2-4%. This is near impossible to do in the snow/ice, much easier to do on a nice dry racetrack ;) Racecar drivers like ABS for two reasons, one, their ABS is WAAAAaaay different from any system on any street car, it has a much quicker controller and a much different calibration (i.e. closer to the limit), and two, it lets them concentrate on other aspects of driving. They don’t have to worry about locking up the front left, they worry more about nailing that downshift of hitting their apex. Its one less thing for them to have to worry about, and its 100% consistent. But they can still brake harder/later w/o it.

Your best bet regardless if you have ABS/Stability Control/AWD is good snow tires, there is a reason we say “where the rubber meets the road…” Id take a performance RWD car with good snow tires and no electronics over a 4x4/AWD car with all-seasons and all the electronic nannies in the world…all winter long. Tires, Tires, Tires, make more of a difference than ANYTHING.

Even with all the training I’ve had, I can still fk up, and so can the car/electronic nannies. Two years ago I punted my S6 (amazing in the snow!) in a baaaad way in a blizzard driving over wolf creek pass, I tried to drift a corner that I didn’t see (re: I f’d up by not seeing the turn and it was too late to brake) but the ESP/ABS kicked in and turned my rally car move into a straight line punt into/onto a 5’ snow bank..oops…without those electronic nannies I would have saved it with a hero move, but paying more attention to the road at 6am I would have not missed the ‘U’ sign…

Do I like ABS/ESP/Traction control? Yes. Do I like it all the time, NO. Its nice to be able to not drive on the razor edge of concentration and have all those systems on worrying for me when im not driving near the limits. But its also nice for ME to be able to turn them off and pay 100% attention to what the car is doing and to have better control over the vehicle at, near, and under the limits.

Having the power off only disables the ABS and the power assist. Your brakes will still work just as well and just as many times as if you had power on, you just have to push the pedal a lot harder.

In summary, for average joe driver, Id say keep ABS functional and get snow tires. If you spend the time training and practicing and have good equipment, disabling ABS may be worth your while. Take a performance winter driving class, a good instructor will blow your mind on what is possible in the snow… A switch is a good mix Id say.

p.s. Gisforgaper, how do you like the V8 in the M3? Or an E46 CSL? Im guessing you’re talking about M-mode traction control. ;) My M lap times were always faster with the system off, wet or dry, but those little hairs on the back of my neck got waaay more tired with it off in the wet ;) I almost ate HUGE SHIT at Road America in the ‘kink’ with the system on in the dry (re: “it” lifted, not me), the instructor made me keep it on for a few laps, until that happened, I told him he either gets out of the car or the system goes off, either way im not slowing down!

Mmkay.
But, from a conveyor belt ? Will it take off ?

wrinkledpants
11-24-2008, 09:23 AM
Nope... With ESP ON, you'll smell brakes (bec they’ll be working during spirited driving), with ESP off, you wont.

C5 S6 BTW.

ESP is just a program using the yaw sensors, steering angle, and ABS sensors to keep you going straight down the road. Even with ESP off, you still need a way to control torque across the axle. Subaru uses a viscous clutch to accomplish this. Audi uses the ABS system.

Wikipedia has a descent write up on the Quattro system and it's evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_(four_wheel_drive_system)

To save yourself a mouse click, here is the excerpt from the Quattro generation we have in our cars:

Starting from 1996 on Audi A4 / S4 / RS4 (B5 platform), Audi A6 / S6 / RS6, Audi A8 / S8 with both manual and automatic transmissions.
The manually locking rear differential from the earlier generations was replaced with a conventional open differential, with "Electronic Differential Lock" (EDL) (which, detects wheelspin via ABS road wheel speed sensors, and applies brakes to the one spinning wheel, thus transferring torque via open differential to the opposite wheel which has more traction). EDL works at speeds up to 80 km/h (50 mph) on all quattro models (on non-quattro models: up to 40 km/h (25 mph).
System type: Permanent four-wheel drive.
Torsen T-2 centre differential, 50:50 'default' split, automatically apportioning up to 75% of torque transfer to either front or rear axle.

All wheel rooster tails are the best ;)

Bcar
11-24-2008, 09:43 AM
I donno... Good points regardless. Id prob give you the front diff as maybe being open, but not sure on the rear. Pretty sure the rear has a limited slip function...w/o using the brakes. I had some pretty serious extended use rally sessions with it in CO and imediatly after the brakes were not hot, not even close to what they'd be when the ESP was on... Im talking over an hour of consistant power slides/snow flying fun (God I loved the drive to steamboat!). On other vehicles with AWD that for sure had open diffs I actually caught the rear brakes on fire once, oops...
And FWIW, Id still have a double rooster tail over 50mph...waaay over 50mph, dont ask me how I know though... ;) The CSP is prob still looking for "that wagon" on vail pass...

I donno, once the snow flies it would be easy to instrument up the car and find out for sure!

Gotta love the Quattro rooster!!!

XXX-er
11-24-2008, 11:15 AM
during "spirited driving " who uses the brakes to promote over steer in either front wheel or 4x4 ... one foot on the brake and one on the gas OR heel-toe ?

I got that tip watching a finnish rally driver on tv way back

hemas
11-24-2008, 11:21 AM
...one foot on the brake and one on the gas...

One can always also promote oversteer by subtle release of gas followed by a nice wrist flick... Much more refined way than excessive wheel jankin' or hand brake.

Just takes skill, which about 99.5% of posters here don't have to truly master... Albeit many think they do.

XXX-er
11-24-2008, 11:47 AM
yeah that works , but actually I got new haks and I don't wana chew them up or lose studs so I quit that stuff ... besides I have nowhere to go and all day to get there

IMO , ABS and ESC should be mandatory on all new cars and 99% of the drivers out there especialy in N.A. should leave them on

Huckwheat
11-24-2008, 11:58 AM
I took a driving course where they wet the pavement then we did full lockup situations....first with no ABS, then with ABS.

The catch is knowing how to drive differently.
--with ABS you can slam the breaks, but you still just barely turn the wheel (or you will swing the whole car sideways).
--without ABS you lock the breaks, and since you are still moving in a straightline towards the object you want to miss, you turn the wheel more dramatically. You are basically waiting for the wheel to catch then turn around it.

Ultimately, a good driver can be more effective with ABS, because you can lightly steer around something without having to make such dramatic movements of the front wheel (or that is what they told us).

I enjoy the fun of driving without them, but I think ultimately it is better for me to know my wheels are never locked (and using that information when making decisions on how to drive through a situation).

XXX-er
11-24-2008, 12:19 PM
Ultimately, a good driver can be more effective with ABS, because you can lightly steer around something without having to make such dramatic movements of the front wheel (or that is what they told us).

).

A good driiver In north america?

Ok so on a closed course/skid pad when everybody is going the same way ,you know your car, the surface & whats coming and what you are doing ... ABS/ESC or not

Maybe you did better without

How about real life ?You are driving a little fast ,a snow plow backs out to the middle of the highway to get the whole berm ,a girl in her moms kia coming the otehr way swerves to avoid snow plow ,bounces off a snow bank right in front of you at highway speed , hit brakes and its glare ice ... ABS/ESC or not?

Bcar
11-24-2008, 12:29 PM
There are a few ways to do it. Please don’t try these at home, ha ha ha!

What you mentioned is trail braking, when entering a turn and braking usually you let off the brakes for your turn-in, with trail braking you’re still on the brakes when you enter the turn, usually using your left foot on the brake so you can be right back on the gas, or on the gas the whole time. During hard braking you un-weight the rear end of the vehicle, with trail braking you keep the rear un-weighted thus it’s easier to slide out/come around. Heel/Toe doesn’t work as well because you need to modulate the throttle, hard to do with the side of the foot, better left foot brake.

Hemas is talking about a “Scandinavian flick.” (Probably because those nut balls are the best rally drivers in the world…) Say you’re going to do a right hand turn, you’d give an abrupt left turn input into the wheel to un-weight the left side of the car, and then ‘flick’ the wheel back to the right to enter the turn, the left side is un-weighted and will thus induce an oversteer condition (there is some roll and yaw that come into play as well). I would NOT recommend trying this technique unless you’re with an instructor or someone who really really knows what they’re doing, and only do it in a big parking lot with nothing to hit. It’s quite hard to get it just right, but its sweeeeeet once you figure it out.

E-brake turns are easy, lock the rears to induce oversteer.

Throttle induced, oversteer, mash the gas, the ass end comes around.

TTO, trailing throttle oversteer is another technique, you really need to be at or near the cornering limit of the vehicle to do this one, weight transfer again… And usually in a RWD vehicle. I wouldn’t try this one in the snow. In a hard turn, you get off the gas, weight transfers forward, rear wheels become loose, ass end comes around. Or in the case of a RWD turbo vehicle, the backpressure will slow the rate of the rear wheels and cause the ass end to come around. NEVER EVER try TTO in a Porsche… Many many 911s have ended up crunched because of “lift.”

Each technique has its place and its use. And they’re not always interchangeable for when you can/cant use them. Even the E-brake turn is VERY handy to have/use sometimes, as crude as it is… Know thy limits, the car's limits, the driver's limits, and the limits of the conditions, go past any one of them and it could be trouble, go past two of them and you could very well be having a blast with me on a closed course racetrack ;)

Im 100% with XXX-er, stability control, traction control, and ABS should be standard for all cars and all drivers (oh wait, it will be soon.) However, for some of us we should have a button where we can turn it off ;) At least stability and traction control, but ABS would be nice sometimes too.

Bcar
11-24-2008, 12:41 PM
at highway speed, hit brakes and its glare ice ... ABS/ESC or not?

depends ;) Most times it would help for most people, sometimes (FOR ME) it could hurt. ABS/ESC will not let me induce under or oversteer which could very well save ones ars... This very thing happened to me in CO during a bad storm, three cars spun in front of us on black ice on 70, thank God I had ESC off (yeah, I was driving a little "spirited" that morning, no I didn’t cause the spins) and I was able to miss two cars by getting mine to go sideways around one while using the front wheels to pull me around another. We aimed for the 3rd and by the time we got there he'd bounced off the snowbank out of our way. But in other cases, ESC has made accident evasion easier.

Did it work? yes, if I tried it again would it work? who knows! But if I would have had my ESC on in that situation, we would have hit one or more of the cars, 100% we'd have wrecked...

Regardless, I recommend performance driving schools for anyone and everyone. The better you know how to control your vehicle in any number of situations the better. Autocross, open track days, professional instruction, winter driving clinics, they all make one a better driver. Hell, I think im pretty capable behind the wheel, but when I take a refresher with a real pro, I always remember I've got a LOT to learn...

XXX-er
11-24-2008, 12:53 PM
Forget any brakes , I moved over till I ran out of room ,she hit me in the front wheel and stopped dead like a que ball facing the direction she came from .

I got punted down a bank ,missed a telephone pole by 2 ft, into knee deep snow which stopped me in about 50ft .No injuries the car got fixed ,I sicked the RCMP after the snow plow driver and he was found 75% at fault (and the girl 25% )even tho he didnt touch anybody .

edit : so whats the point , you just can't account for shitty things happening all at once and I had 4 ...too much speed,snowplow coming out of nowhere, skidding on ice blocks road,girl in kia coming out of nowhere

so give me abs/esc

edit: AND I would rather have hundreds of millions of NA drivers out there with ABS/ESC

horizon
11-24-2008, 02:41 PM
Bloody hell, I'm used to being an average (if not below-average) skier on these boards, now I realise I'm a below-average driver too.

ABS and all the electronic gadgetry for me. I learned to brake in snow / ice without, but there are far, far more cases when it would do better than myself unaided.

hemas
11-24-2008, 02:46 PM
Bloody hell, I'm used to being an average (if not below-average) skier on these boards, now I realise I'm a below-average driver too.

Actually you just described why you most likely are above average driver on the TGR populas... "don't think you're the driving god on roads and thus know your limitations"... neither can be said about most people posting here, true I'm sure some are excellent drivers (and a lot better than moi), but far too many think too much of them selves...

Of male drivers around 85 % thinks they are above average when it comes to driving... And considering majority of drivers world wide are male and that there actually are good female drivers, well something is not right.

muted
11-24-2008, 03:06 PM
Try the E-Brake if you don't want the ABS to kick in.

You can still pump your brakes with ABS, I do it all the time on slippy roads. Maybe my car is different, but I have to completely slam on my brakes for it to engage, so I have plenty of room to pump hard before the ABS works.

Basically, it just takes awhile to get used to, so try it. Might not work on your car though.

Turning off your car is a terrible idea, btw. Your steering wheel will lock up and you can't step on the gas if needed. And if you panic and turn your key too far, you have no lights. And the stereo will die too. I wanna be rocking out while I die.

horizon
11-24-2008, 03:18 PM
And the stereo will die too. I wanna be rocking out while I die.

Excellent!

gisforgaper
11-25-2008, 10:29 PM
p.s. Gisforgaper, how do you like the V8 in the M3? Or an E46 CSL? Im guessing you’re talking about M-mode traction control. ;) My M lap times were always faster with the system off, wet or dry, but those little hairs on the back of my neck got waaay more tired with it off in the wet ;) I almost ate HUGE SHIT at Road America in the ‘kink’ with the system on in the dry (re: “it” lifted, not me), the instructor made me keep it on for a few laps, until that happened, I told him he either gets out of the car or the system goes off, either way im not slowing down!

The V8 is very, very nice. I was commenting to my significant other as she drove my drunk ass home the other night how impressive the power delivery of the car is from the passenger seat (when you're not anticipating the power delivery). The motor is killer because it pulls hard from 3000 RPM and then doesn't stop pulling until 8400 RPM. Everyone I put in the car is taken aback not by the sheer force of the acceleration (it really doesn't pull that hard), but the fact that it just keeps pulling about 30% father up the rev band than you think it should.

I have the same experience with students at Sears Point. Coming out of turn 10 the fastest cars will fire the TC, but much like the kink at RAm, you're moving too quickly (and not in anger) too really want to risk getting out of shape there. I'll never forget the guy who after our warm-up/demo laps where I drifted his 996 GT3 out of the Carosel and then turn 10 at 100mph+ he then against my best advice and terrified pleading tried to imitate the bit of feint motion I used and pulled a tank slapper so hard he pulled into the pits (and I needed new underwear). Good times.

Bcar
11-26-2008, 06:30 AM
gis,
niiiice. I haven’t had ANY seat time in the new ones, yet :( A good buddy just picked one up though, but he's sadly in ATl (and trying to get me to do Road Atlanta with him and his M and 964 turbo, he must really want to see me!). That’s the best part of ///M-Power, it doesn’t hit the hardest of what’s out there, but it sure as hell hits the longest... My fav thing to do in my E46 was get it going ~20mph, put it in 4th (on a looong stretch of clear road), and floor it, its more like an electric motor pulling linearly and consistently all the way to redline @120+, hmmmm3 :)
Shinny side up!

BushwackerinPA
11-26-2008, 06:56 AM
All the road tests prove as well that ABS will stop the car faster than 95% of the drivers can on their own. If you have an AWD car, the ABS is tied into that and you CANNOT disconnect it.




WTF are you talking about?

AWD has nothing to do with ABS. tons of guys who race WRX just pull the ABS fuse and the back up ABS fuse and cna drive with out ABS for stuff like autocross and track days. The ABS on the WRX is very intrusive, as is a Toyota camry.

A good driver can out stop ABS on most conditions, especially cross channel, or dual channel ABS. 3 channel not so much. If you lucky enough like me to have aggresively tuned 4 channel ABS is best to leave it in. I can not match my ABS in the snow, but can easily beat it in the dry.

Honda's 4 channel ABS is amoung the best in the world and is tough for a human to beat. This is what I have.

but AWD and ABS have nothing to do with each other. ASC is tired into the ABS as are most TCS systems so disabling your abs will shut those systems off as well but will not interfer with AWD which is mostly based on mechanical and oh electronic controlled diffs to get the power from the engine to the wheels.

jonesy
11-26-2008, 07:33 AM
One can always also promote oversteer by subtle release of gas followed by a nice wrist flick... Much more refined way than excessive wheel jankin' or hand brake.

Just takes skill, which about 99.5% of posters here don't have to truly master... Albeit many think they do.

There's fast drivers and there are good drivers. But there are very few fast good drivers. It's time behind the wheel, natural ability and training. That's the difference. Skilled drivers have learned from their mistakes. The better you get the more you realize your not that good. It took me 3 mil. mi. to figure that out. Now I test drive Proto-type vehicles, a new learning standard for me.

BushwackerinPA
11-26-2008, 07:51 AM
Funny you mention you drove an S6 since Quattro is a system based on an open differential. It uses a Torsen center diff to mechanically control the torque to each axle, but uses the individual wheel brakes (monitored and controlled by ABS) to control the torque across the axle. I've got a B5 S4 and after any aggressive driving in the snow/ice, my car will wreak of hot brakes. Older generations of Quattro had a switch to lock the differentials on the dash. If you owned a C4 platform of the S6, you probably had this.

Sorry duuuuude, but I think you are dead wrong here.

Good advice otherwise.

eh your wrong, maybe on your audi you cant turn your ABS off but in most AWD cars you can.

also brake controlled Traction controlled system are redundant on any car with limit slip diffs being driven by a good driver. Your Audi is brake controlled and your are correct you brakes will get hot.

audi would be smart to run 3 torsen diff instead of the brake system.

Bcar
11-26-2008, 08:33 AM
3 e-locker torsens would be best! Ok, quaife maybe a bit better ;)

I like ABS, but sometimes I hate it... I wish I had a switch. I can stop Waaay faster in snow using a snow wedge.

jonesy is right. It takes a LOT of time and training to be a good AND fast. years... It helps if your a finn as well ;) You can be good and not fast, if you're fast and not good, you'll end up crashing... There are very, very few drivers other than maybe WRC/F1 who can say they really dont have much else to learn. In one of my prev posts I mentioned a few techniques for driving, these are not needed-pretty much ever, unless you're trying to go way faster than we "should" be in the snow on public roads, or trying to pull a superhero move to avoid an accident.

Either way, for my day job, it doesnt matter if I have ABS or not... Why? Bec I get to drive this around, I just drive over or blow up $hit that gets in my way! ha ha ha. :FIREdevil (ok, so they wont let me drive with ammo, damn it :frown:)
http://www.generaldynamics.com/images/home/jltv_med_res.jpg

jonesy
11-26-2008, 08:59 AM
Are those flexable body steps or solid? If there solid,poor design. See what I mean about a new learning standard as a driver.http://www.tetongravity.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Bcar
11-26-2008, 09:23 AM
:D
flexible...but still a design that can be improved on IMHO... I fought that design but lost, customer gets what customer wants.

I got really used to performance cars, then I got on this project and ones like it. Off road is a blast (pun intended with all the armor!), cant wait till we go up to Loveland pass for high alt testing and Moab for offroad testing, well, as long as I can wiggle myself onto those trips ;)

wrinkledpants
11-26-2008, 09:40 AM
WTF are you talking about?

AWD has nothing to do with ABS. tons of guys who race WRX just pull the ABS fuse and the back up ABS fuse and cna drive with out ABS for stuff like autocross and track days. The ABS on the WRX is very intrusive, as is a Toyota camry.

A good driver can out stop ABS on most conditions, especially cross channel, or dual channel ABS. 3 channel not so much. If you lucky enough like me to have aggresively tuned 4 channel ABS is best to leave it in. I can not match my ABS in the snow, but can easily beat it in the dry.

Honda's 4 channel ABS is amoung the best in the world and is tough for a human to beat. This is what I have.

but AWD and ABS have nothing to do with each other. ASC is tired into the ABS as are most TCS systems so disabling your abs will shut those systems off as well but will not interfer with AWD which is mostly based on mechanical and oh electronic controlled diffs to get the power from the engine to the wheels.

Not sure if you read through everything, but I was referring to AWD in general for cars. Subaru uses a viscous clutch to control power across an axle. I can't think off the top of my head of a car based AWD system that uses a similar viscous clutch.

My car does use ABS as it's an open differential. The majority of other German based AWD systems do as well. Since traction control is based on ABS, I'm fairly certain other manufacturers use ABS to control power across an axle, since that's basically what traction control is doing. It's much cheaper than having a viscous clutch.

1000-oaks
11-27-2008, 02:35 AM
ABS is kind of like fat skis, sure you can ski old skinny boards in powder but why do it unless you have to? ABS keeps your rig in a straight line when braking hard, and even allows you to turn if needed.

Coming from the snowbelt, I used to think I was a great winter driver in non-ABS cars and trucks. But owning a heavy Land Cruiser with ABS these last three years, I gotta say it rocks and I drive extra-careful when using my non-ABS late '80's 4runner. Pumping can easily turn into swinging a car all over the road. I'd rather just plant the brake pedal and turn my attention to where I'm going and what's happening around me, rather than focusing on finessing the brakes.

And for most of you out there, if you're behind me I'd prefer you have ABS. If you're in front, you decide - I'll watch the show.