Canadian Election Thread

[powslut]

Couldn't find another one, so I figured someone may as well start one.

I'm voting conservative this time around. Dion's Green Shift program is brutal, Layton is a communist and I just don't care for May.

Anyone see the video of the (former) NDP candidate from the Sunshine Coast lighting up a mouthful of doobies and dropping liquid acid? Pretty amazing.

[Mathematics]

canadians have elections?

[powslut]

canadians have elections?

Alaska is part of the US?

[L7]

canadians have elections?

No shit really? Is Palin running?

I just can't vote for Harper, I don't trust the guy. I have the feeling he would sell his Mother for power and so far has sold out retirees with his trust fund flip, the arts and most of the provinces. At least whiskey nose Myron is gone.

Do you understand Dion's green shift? I don't really but the claim is it's revenue neutral but shifts the tax burden onto carbon output instead of profit. Of course they all claim things are carbon neutral.

[timvwcom]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/brainpoopie/may503c.gif

[Mathematics]

Alaska is part of the US?

not for too much longer, me and the Palins are seceding.

[powslut]

.

Do you understand Dion's green shift? I don't really but the claim is it's revenue neutral but shifts the tax burden onto carbon output instead of profit. Of course they all claim things are carbon neutral.

Remember the NEP? I don't, but it sure sounds like it fucked over the west. The way I see Green Shift is it's the NEP with a facelift. It's a direct tax on the oil and mining industries out west to subsidize the laggards industries in the east.

Everyone is whining about Alberta's dirty oil, but I would love to see the position we would be in as a nation today without it.

[powslut]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/brainpoopie/may503c.gif

Amazing ----> http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/milewski-realitycheck-080917.mov

[Dexter Rutecki]

canadians have elections?

How else do you think they pick a new queen to put on their currency? Muricans is so ignant.

[Eldo]

I just can't vote for Harper, I don't trust the guy. I have the feeling he would sell his Mother for power and so far has sold out retirees with his trust fund flip, the arts and most of the provinces...

So he shuts down the big oil companies who are basically evading taxes by turning themselves into trust funds (and thereby dumping the tax burden on regular Canadians) and you have a problem with that?

My Dad who is an accountant had warned his clients about trust funds for years saying they were a dubious high risk investment and not something that older investors should dabble in.

Surprise! A lot of seniors got greedy and put their money in a financial vehicle that basically was screwing regular working Canadians out of tax dollars.

Shutting it down could be the best thing the Conservatives have done so far.

As for the arts, fuck the CBC lovers and their stupid artsy fartsy programs.

[L7]

Remember the NEP? I don't, but it sure sounds like it fucked over the west. The way I see Green Shift is it's the NEP with a facelift. It's a direct tax on the oil and mining industries out west to subsidize the laggards industries in the east.

Everyone is whining about Alberta's dirty oil, but I would love to see the position we would be in as a nation today without it.

I remember the NEP but it had more to do with stealing the profit than controlling the environmental impact. I can't say I'm a big fan of what's going on in the oilsands. Lakes a 100 miles away dropping 20' because of aquifers being drained, the top 5m of soil and plant life ripped away so they can start the strip mining over massive areas of the northern province. Where will the environment be in 20 years of this nonsense and what will that do to the economy?

The thing I don't get about propping an economy with this no bars dash for 'dirty oil' is the only guarantee of a big boom like this is a big bust. Insanely fast growth leads to insanely fast collapse. What's really wrong with slowing down the development up there and maybe even not killing everything within 100 miles and improve the technology while doing it?

[David Witherspoon]

How else do you think they pick a new queen to put on their currency? Muricans is so ignant.
They're gonna have a revolution when Her Majesty kicks it and they realize they're supposed to put King Charlie's face on their coinage. :biggrin:
http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2005/02/10/1108044869_8496.jpg

[L7]

They're gonna have a revolution when Her Majesty kicks it and they realize they're supposed to put King Charlie's face on their coinage. :biggrin:
http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2005/02/10/1108044869_8496.jpg

That's probably the big reason the poor sap is going to get skipped over one of the lads will be on it instead.

[Huckin eh?]

We're having an election?

Shit, I have to watch news now!

[f2f]

How else do you think they pick a new queen-mother to put on their currency?

fixed it for you.

[powslut]

I remember the NEP but it had more to do with stealing the profit than controlling the environmental impact. I can't say I'm a big fan of what's going on in the oilsands. Lakes a 100 miles away dropping 20' because of aquifers being drained, the top 5m of soil and plant life ripped away so they can start the strip mining over massive areas of the northern province. Where will the environment be in 20 years of this nonsense and what will that do to the economy?

The thing I don't get about propping an economy with this no bars dash for 'dirty oil' is the only guarantee of a big boom like this is a big bust. Insanely fast growth leads to insanely fast collapse. What's really wrong with slowing down the development up there and maybe even not killing everything within 100 miles and improve the technology while doing it?

It's funny that no one complains about the boom when they are cash in, but the second some ducks die the world is ending. Don't get me wrong, I believe their are way better approaches to the manner in which the oilsands are being developed, but having the Liberals back in power is not going to address this. The only thing that is going to be accomplished is furthering the East/ West divide. If the liberals win you will see a western seperatism revival.

edit - I equate "Green Shift" to the NEP because it once again is stealing profit buy this time by disguising under the populist guise of the environment.

[Eldo]

...I can't say I'm a big fan of what's going on in the oilsands. Lakes a 100 miles away dropping 20' because of aquifers being drained, the top 5m of soil and plant life ripped away so they can start the strip mining over massive areas of the northern province. Where will the environment be in 20 years of this nonsense and what will that do to the economy?

The thing I don't get about propping an economy with this no bars dash for 'dirty oil' is the only guarantee of a big boom like this is a big bust. Insanely fast growth leads to insanely fast collapse. What's really wrong with slowing down the development up there and maybe even not killing everything within 100 miles and improve the technology while doing it?

Thank you David Suzucki, but what does that have to do with the federal election? :nonono2: The last time I checked natural resources were still the domain of each province. If you have a problem with it, talk to Ed.

It is none of Dion's or Layton's or (God forbid) Liz May's business what happens in Northern AB. No more than we Albertans should have a say in what Newfoundland does with their offshore.

[L7]

It's funny that no one complains about the boom when they are cash in, but the second some ducks die the world is ending. Don't get me wrong, I believe their are way better approaches to the manner in which the oilsands are being developed, but having the Liberals back in power is not going to address this. The only thing that is going to be accomplished is furthering the East/ West divide. If the liberals win you will see a western seperatism revival.

edit - I equate "Green Shift" to the NEP because it once again is stealing profit buy this time by disguising under the populist guise of the environment.

I've complained about the boom since it started getting out of control and so have the regional managers in Fort Mac where they feel the lack of infrastructure and housing if not the environmental impact. Friends have complained while their lakeside cabin became 'lake still within walking distance'. You think a few (hundreds if not thousands) of ducks gets it going wait until a berm on a tailings pond lets go and a wall of death heads down the Atha B/ Mackenzie.

For the record I also remember people walking away from mortgages when the boom ended in the early 80s. There's nothing pretty about a bust and the only way to guarantee a bust is with an out of control boom.

I'm not sure the Green shift is stealing profit in the same sense the NEP did. The NEP forced Alberta to sell oil to domestic sources at lower prices then they could get by exporting on the open market. (If I recall correctly). The green shift presumably will punish all carbon producers evenly including eastern manufacturing. I don't see it sucking off profits from one at the exclusive benefit of the other.

What's a little separatism furor? At least we can let the french know what it feels like.

[timvwcom]

I guess I just felt like picking on ya some more, eh? So I'm going to post up some more stupid pics...

http://www.forumsextreme.com/imgs1/fGe_CanadaStrikesBack.jpg

http://www.thecomedynet.com/images3/canada.jpg

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/funny-pictures-moose-jet-planes.jpg

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Mac2311/battleshipcanada-01Funny_Image.jpg



OK, OK... Honestly, I guess this was just to cover for my feelings of inadequacy in being able to add anything to a discussion of politics in the great white north. Sorry... Here's some Canadian ass to apologize.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/spickoli/Sexy_Canadian_Girl.jpg

http://cache.deadspin.com/assets/resources/2008/02/Canada-bikini.jpg

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/ihateeverything/CANADA.png

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/rockstar5412/SexyCanadianGirl.png

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll302/CandianFreedom/sexy-canadian-tits.jpg

Even I'm feeling a bit patriotic regards this last one! My work here is done...

[Eldo]

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll302/CandianFreedom/sexy-canadian-tits.jpg


Whoa! She's got my vote.

[L7]

Thank you David Suzucki, but what does that have to do with the federal election? :nonono2: The last time I checked natural resources were still the domain of each province. If you have a problem with it, talk to Ed.

It is none of Dion's or Layton's or (God forbid) Liz May's business what happens in Northern AB. No more than we Albertans should have a say in what Newfoundland does with their offshore.

Thank you George Bush. If you read the whole thread you would see Powslut made reference to Alberta's dirty oil, the past National energy policy and Dion's Greenshift plan in the context of the federal election. Again as you may be a lot thicker than I previously thought the idea of taxing based on environmental impact is not directed at any one place like your precious Fort Mac shit hole but on all carbon producers as I understand it. It just happens our provincial government has allowed that area to go unchecked and pump ridiculous amounts of shit into air that shows little respect for provincial boundaries or world boundaries for that matter.

As an Albertan if Newfoundland showed blatant disregard for the well being of the ocean that stretches well beyond their shores I do think it would be my business.

You know I thought it could be good to just discuss the views on a Canadian election without the shitshow the US elections elicit. I wouldn't really have expected you to be the one to bring this discussion down a notch.

.

[Eldo]

My bad. But after all this is the Political Asshattery forum, not the polite discussion forum. :FIREdevil

[PlayHarder]

Dude, you've really got to not buy into the hype regarding Albertas "Dirty Oil". Take a look around the world at how a lot of the other oil producing areas handle enviromental issues. The oil sand isn't perfect by any stretch, but our industry in Canada is pretty advanced when it comes to enviromental practices. Things like the Liberal green plan won't do shit to protect the enviroment, it'll simply move that production to areas of the world with lower standards. Reducing our impact will take people getting their head out of their asses and realizing that the industry is only serving their demands.
Generally, I haven't been any more or less impressed with Harper than any of the other PMs we've had in my lifetime. The only thing the Conservatives really have going for them is that Dion and Layton are way too far off in fantasyland to be a legitimate option. At least Harper seems to grasp the fact that the billions of dollars the other two are claiming to want to spend has to come from somewhere.

[Eldo]

I agree, Harper is not exactly a shining star, but compared to Dion and Layton he is the best of the usual bad lot.

Okay, now that we have this election thing settled, how about more photos of tarts in maple leaf bikinis?

[powslut]

Just to reiterate PlayHarders point:

It really bothers me when people bitch about the environmental impacts of the oilsands but at the same time live in their 4000sq/ft houses in the suburbs and drive to work everyday. It seems incredible that their are people in Canada who are unable or unwilling to draw a parallel between the fuel of their lifestyle and what is being produced in Northern Alberta and Saskatchewan. You want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Start buy moving to the inner city, buying a prius and getting solar panels for your roof. Until then Canadians need to realize that we are one of the biggest per capita consumers of energy in the world, even higher than the US.

The Green Shift doctrine is destined to fail. If implemented it is going to impact the consumer more than anyone else because the corporations will feed the costs down the line.

[f2f]

It really bothers me when people bitch about the environmental impacts of the oilsands but at the same time live in their 4000sq/ft houses in the suburbs and drive to work everyday.

my gripe with calgary: it's very difficult to find a euro-style (high density, but still with a bit of a yard) 1500sq ft townhouse near the LRT. seems like nobody is building them. it's either highrise condos or the Xbed/Ybath (for X>3, Y>2) monstrosities.

[Cheesestoff]

I haven't looked into the green shift enough yet to come to a conclusion, but just some thoughts I have:

-you want to make people move into smaller places, drive a hybrid and put solar cells on their roof... well make fossil fuels more expensive so that these options start to make more sense

-if the green shift works (the way i think it does, may be wrong) yes food, fuel, etc will get more expensive, but our tax burden will also go down... will this not cancel each other out... obviously the increase in prices is more noticeable on a day to day basis, but if you have more cash at the end of the year?

I personally can't stand Harper, he's a slime ball who pushes policies to buy votes not what makes sense i.e. dropping the gst rate instead of reducing income tax.

but having said that Dion doesn't seem like much of a leader.

[Eldo]

Someone needs to bring back the Rhino Party! They were my vote getter for many elections.

Oh, and my apologies L7 for my rude replies. You deserve more respect than that, even if I disagree with what you said. I must have been channeling my Cliff Huckable ire in the wrong direction.

Carry on with the polite Canadian debate. ;)

[LeeLau]

welll - that was sooo American. Glad to see the more polite Canadianness come back.

[powder11]

So what happens when the price of oil drops below the threash hold of profitability in Alberta? The oil companies walk away and you go from boom to bust like most sketchy oil production projects. People say it won't happen, but if I said last year that all the major financial institutions on Wall St would fail within the year, most people wouldn't have believed it. Most of the hedge funds who's speculative practices have been driving up the price of oil are going to be putting their money elsewhere given the Wall st meltdown. Given that, I believe the price of oil will stabilize even more when Bush leaves office and may drop significantly if Obama wins the election. Not to mention the new royalty payments scheme coming online in Alberta will drastically reduce the profitability of those projects. Anything related to oil sands projects is not the place to have your money, but it could be a good short for Lee Lau;)

I don't know jack shit about Canadian politics and I can't vote, but I do know that liberal scheme on a revenue neutral carbon tax is ludicrous. Useless political rhetoric at its finest. Harper may be a dick weed, but those liberals are crooks looking to take as much of your money as they can to fund superficial pet projects that only make people feel good rather actually accomplishing anything.

[PlayHarder]

So what happens when the price of oil drops below the threash hold of profitability in Alberta? The oil companies walk away and you go from boom to bust like most sketchy oil production projects.

Kind of sad that an American expat can see this a lot clearer than a lot of Canucks, including most of our politicians. Some of us remember what Alberta was like in the early eighties when this happened. At that time it a combination of the NEP and bottomed out prices, this time the Ab gov. started the ball rolling with the royalty review and we're just waiting on the price to drop a little more now. The positive today is that conventional oil projects have been streamlined enough to remain competitive, lower prices will hurt the economy due to the drop in heavy oil and oilsands projects but conv production should keep us from seeing a repeat of 1979.
Not good for Canada as a whole if Alberta crashes and it looks even worse if we get a goverment that makes changes that will also negatively affect Ontario and it's manufacturing sector. Those two sectors crashing would kill the Canadian economy and mean the end of the social safety net we're so proud of. Then there's something most British Columbians don't like to acknowledge; a big chunk of the social programs enjoyed there are paid for by the oil & gas development in Northern BC, so they'll likely suffer more than Albertans with the multi billion dollar Heritage Fund that's there to pad the fall a bit.
It's really just too bad that the minority gov't thing doesn't actually work the way it should due to partisan bs. All three major parties have their positives and negatives, if the bastards could just do what we pay them and work towards the good of country instead of their own success we'd be laughing.

[DougW]

Just a comment on oil sands. The mines are ugly, Hamilton ugly. So really ugly. The reclaimed ponds don't look too bad. Its funny that when they show aerial pics of the oil sands they never show the steam injection plants. Long term there won't be many more mines as most of the resource can't be mined. AS for L7 comments on sucking down lakes. Don't think that is major oil sands projects. Big restrictions on where we get water, have to go deep enough that does communicate with surface water. Probably the little sites where no recycle or just have water for injection.

Election, well its too bad Layton is such an idiot as the misinformation that goes out his mouth doesn’t do the country any good. I think that Dion has admitted that a fair bit of the pain will be felt out west. That’s not NEP but would be foolish to do until States does something similair.

[DougW]

Don't make the mistake of comparing conventional oil to oil sands. They are as different as home building and steel making. With conventional oil you can turn off spending tomorrow. Finish the wells you've started and don't tie them in. Done. Oil sands you invest $1bil over 4-5 years. The economics are based on what the price of oil will be for 25 years. Pretty hard to cancel after 2 years in. I wouldn't want to say slowdown but think no more speed up to let everything digest the growth. On the infrastructure thing, I don't know but all the projects I've worked on are so far from anything the oil company has to build everything.

[giggles]

dont we have an upcoming BC election too?

too many elections right now. and Canadian politicians are boring compared to the states ...

[Jer]

Sails cackling at every plate we break - cracked by scattered needles.

[Cliff Huckable]

VOTE
GREEN

It's funny that no one complains about the boom when they are cash in, but the second some ducks die the world is ending. Don't get me wrong, I believe their are way better approaches to the manner in which the oilsands are being developed, but having the Liberals back in power is not going to address this. The only thing that is going to be accomplished is furthering the East/ West divide. If the liberals win you will see a western seperatism revival.

edit - I equate "Green Shift" to the NEP because it once again is stealing profit buy this time by disguising under the populist guise of the environment.

East/West divide, pfft. There is no real western separatism, just some occassional whiners.
Politics in the West are so bush-league it's ridiculous. Once there are some real politicians out here maybe people wil listen to the West.
Failing that, the provinces that produce the greatest number of NHL players should have the most power.


and Canadian politicians are boring compared to the states ...

It's just that kind of thinking that led to US elections being so fucked up. We don't need that superficial shit here.

[P_McPoser]

Maybe I should become a canadian resident and work the oil sands. Take that, Canada!

[pheenster]

... Dion and Layton are way too far off in fantasyland to be a legitimate option.

Ding.

The idea of either of these two running the show during any kind of major crisis scares the living shit out of me.

[carpathian]

How else do you think they pick a new queen-mother to put on their currency?


Is that how you argue? You take an actual miss speak and then act as if I am retarded for pointing out that a british person is on your coins?

And what is the deal with calling elections when ever you see fit?

[pheenster]

So what happens when the price of oil drops below the threash hold of profitability in Alberta? The oil companies walk away and you go from boom to bust like most sketchy oil production projects.

The oil sands were profitable at $40 a barrel. Oil may be on it's way down, but it has a long way to go before Alberta has anything to worry about. And hey, if oil goes back to $15 they can all move to Ontario and start making big-ass SUVs.

[pheenster]

East/West divide, pfft. There is no real western separatism, just some occassional whiners.

I used to believe that, before I moved out here.

[powslut]

East/West divide, pfft. There is no real western separatism, just some occassional whiners.
Politics in the West are so bush-league it's ridiculous. Once there are some real politicians out here maybe people wil listen to the West.


And there you have it folks. The reason why western separatism exists now and will come back around in a big way in the future. Easterners with a superiority complex.

[LeeLau]

Ontario and Quebec can go fuck themselves. We're way better

[powder11]

Ontario and Quebec can go fuck themselves. We're way better
As I said before, I don't know jack shit about Canadian politics or the price of oil sand, but I do know I've never met a BC'er living in Ontario or Quebec.

[Telecaster]

My bad. But after all this is the Political Asshattery forum, not the polite discussion forum. :FIREdevil

Wow, this is the first time this opinionated know-it-all has quasi-apologized for anything:fuckyou:. There is hope.....

[iscariot]

Not to mention the new royalty payments scheme coming online in Alberta will drastically reduce the profitability of those projects.

Actually, Ed Stelmack quietly rescinded most of the royalty changes last April. The "new" royalty payments are about the same as the ones currently in place.

[wren]

The oilsands used to be profitable at $40 a barrel. It's closer to $60 now, if not more. Demand for material and labour have put costs through the roof and cost overruns in the 80%-150% are now the norm. Projects are being delayed, shelved, or re-engineered. The royalty revue already put the slowdown on development. And frankly, that's a good thing, and it has nothing to do with the environment. Purely for a cost-of-living issue in Alberta mainly.

The green shift policy won't work. First, making it cost more to produce the oil profitably doesn't really change the amount of oil being produced, the costs just get passed on down the line. Yes, if everyone were to go trade their 20 mpg cars in for 30 mpg ones demand would drop like a rock, but do you see that happening? I sure as hell can't afford to sell my subaru for $10k, pull an extra $20k out of my ass and go buy a prius, and my guess is that most north americans can't either, especially when they are losing their shirt on their mortgages. Secondly, Dion claiming it is "revenue neutral" is a joke. He estimates that it will pull in $40 Billion in revenue over 4 years, and that it will be refunded in tax cuts. Great! Oh wait, Dion has announced over $80 in new spending over the next 4 years. Seems to me like we're going to be just a little bit short.

On top of that, as much as Harper claims we're an "island of stability" when it comes to the banking crisis, technically that might be true on the regulation front, but anything that hurts the US hurts us. They are what, like 60% of our export market? Maybe more? We aren't going to get slaughtered like the US, we're didn't expose ourselves to the ridiculous NINJA (no income, no job? apply here!) mortgages like the US did, and our real estate markets are only moderately over-valued, at least in comparison to the US. But our petro-dollar has hurt us in a lot of exports, forestry and manufacturing are the 2 biggest, and tourism isn't doing so hot either. So this is NOT the time to be raising taxes of any kind.

The NDP, unbelievably, actually look like they have their heads screwed on better than the liberals do, and I never thought I'd say that. They have a lot of dubious policy ideas, like trying to "stop price-gouging at gas pumps" and all of a sudden it became the government's responsibility to take care of our kids while we're at work. You think a national day-care program is going to work any better than our health-care program? It seems like part of their idea to help the environment is to spend an extra $1 billion on public transit. Ooh, $1 billion, that will get one city half an LRT line? Their only saving grace is they only want to spend 1/4 of what Dion wants to spend.

Do the Tories have a better idea on what to do with the environment? No, but at least they won't destroy the economy trying to do so. I don't like Harper as much as I did before the last election, but he is far and away the best we've got. It would be nice however to actually see some fiscal conservatism and actually cap spending, let a lone cut it. Hardly "convservative" when you raise spending by more than the previous government.