Ol' George suuure is quiet...

[rideit]

I can only imagine what he is thinking regarding his 'legacy'.
Now he can add 'catastrophic economic meltdown' to his resume...he IS an over-achiever, afterall!

[David Witherspoon]

At this point, he's probably given up & shifted gears to wonder how he can outdo the Great Depression.

I mean, what's the point of being at the helm during the second worst financial meltdown in ... since there were finances?

Either that, or he's having tea in a cave in Pakistan with his last remaining friends.

[Crass3000]

I still think he's going to be remembered as a great president within 20 years or so. Think what you want of me and I'm sure you will. Be equally as sure that I won't give a crap what you think.

Edit: I think you can thank the bankers and the realtors for the meltdown we are looking at. It's not so pleasant to recall but it was the Dems who were shouting for people to make loans to everybody which lead to tons of bad loans.

[Cliff Huckable]

"I'm a war President."

He waged war on his own country for eight years, and look at it...



























Ready to elect McCain.

The world sits amazed as once again the American electorate gets ready to vote against their own best interests. It really is fucking incredible. :nonono2:

[David Witherspoon]

Dubya will be remembered as a great President in twenty years by some small fraction of the quarter of Americans who still think he's doing a heckuva job. Assuming any of them can still remember anything by that time.

Rest assured that I don't and won't give a damn.


The world sits amazed as once again the American electorate gets ready to vote against their own best interests.
We do it to spite you. Because we know it's even worse for your interests. So if everybody suffers, but y'all suffer worse, then we're better off. Relatively speaking.
And in the keeping up with the Joneses game, relative comparisons are all that matters.

[rideit]

I still think he's going to be remembered as a great president within 20 years or so. Think what you want of me and I'm sure you will. Be equally as sure that .

Please, entertain me.
List one, two, any reasons why.

[Crass3000]

The world sits amazed as once again the American electorate gets ready to vote against their own best interests. It really is fucking incredible. :nonono2:

Sometimes people have to act selflessly so that those in the future won't have to deal with the problems we left them. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices.

Instead everybody today is "me, me, me, me....."

[rideit]

Sometimes people have to act selflessly so that those in the future won't have to deal with the problems we left them. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices.

Instead everybody today is "me, me, me, me....."

Are you...seriously...assrerting that Bush in any way acted 'seflessly'?

Good god, man...haven't you been awake the last eight years?

[Crass3000]

Please, entertain me.
List one, two, any reasons why.

1) He had the nuts to take on Islamofacism in any of it's forms. He is still trying but most Americans want defeat. He does what he thinks is best in the face of overwhelming scrutiny and utter disrespect when he is trying to do his best for the country. People in the future will see that he was forward thinking instead of thinking of the moment.

2) He did his best before everything blew up to try to reform social security. Nobody seems to want to try to reform social security even though we all know the longer we wait the worse it will be.

Well not tons of examples right now. I'm not trying to say he is the virgin Mary but I think history will look at how he dealt with what he faced in a great light.

[David Witherspoon]

Sometimes people have to act selflessly so that those in the future won't have to deal with the problems we left them. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices.

Instead everybody today is "me, me, me, me....."

For once, we agree.

Let's make the necessary sacrifices, install some rational regulation in the markets, withdraw from that absurdly expensive and massively mismanaged ego-driven war in Iraq, buckle down doing the hard work of diplomacy, quit whining about paying such a low price for the privilege of wasting fossil fuels, and just generally grow up a little bit.

And we can start individually, right here, by contributing to the Obama campaign to take the first small steps in the right direction.

[rideit]

Only he chose the WRONG FUCKING COUNTRY, still hasn't found Bin Laden, and destroyed our credibility in the world as a result.
Heck of a job, brownie!

[Hugh Conway]

I still think he's going to be remembered as a great president within 20 years or so. Think what you want of me and I'm sure you will. Be equally as sure that I won't give a crap what you think.

Edit: I think you can thank the bankers and the realtors for the meltdown we are looking at. It's not so pleasant to recall but it was the Dems who were shouting for people to make loans to everybody which lead to tons of bad loans.


Are you serious?

[timvwcom]

...and the realtors for the meltdown we are looking at...

OK, granted my position on this is biased... But as I've heard this before, and not understood it at all, thought I'd ask you to expound on this.

On the BUYING side:


-In 23 years I've never talked a buyer into buying a property; I show them all the choices and give them good information and advice as to community, property condition and local market activity - then the BUYER makes a decision and chooses one. Agents who are too pushy, or not knowledgeable enough tend to lose those buyers to other agents who are helpful and more knowledgeable.

-In 23 years I've never made a buyer spend X dollars buying their home; In the old days we'd run front and back side ratios based on lending rules and PITI numbers for properties of interest, today we just refer them to a loan officer who handles all the loan stuff - then the BUYER makes the decision on how much to spend. Agents who say only showed a buyer homes above their desired price often lost that buyer to other agents like me who would listen to them.

-In 23 years I've never given a buyer a loan to buy a home. This one should be obvious. Someone else did the financing part... I had nothing to do with it. Even if we referred buyers to certain lenders, buyers aren't required to use them, and lenders certainly didn't ask us agents to approve their underwriting of those buyers. The buyer was qualified or not, nothing the agent did had anything to do with that.

On the SELLING side;


-Yes, I have counseled sellers on what price their home might fetch in the market. But it was not a market either my seller or I made... or controlled. My task was to accurately determine what the market would bear. What do you think a seller would do if their agent said "You know, I think prices have been appreciating too fast to be sustainable - let's price your home $50K below what a buyer would pay to help slow down this market a bit."

-No matter whether a seller followed my pricing advice or not, in the end it didn't matter... because the only number that was important is what a buyer was willing to agree to buy it for. When you bought your home did you just blindly agree to pay what ever the seller or either agent said without doing your due diligence and comparison shopping for the best value for you?

So again... please tell me exactly how the real estate agents are responsible for the current meltdown??? :confused:

[Crass3000]

OK, granted my position on this is biased... But as I've heard this before, and not understood it at all, thought I'd ask you to expound on this.

So again... please tell me exactly how the real estate agents are responsible for the current meltdown??? :confused:

Since the interest rates went down the realtors knew that people could afford to pay more for the same peice of property. Hence the price of any given house went up tons in that period. I'm not saying that any given realtor is to blame but the industry in general profits from higher commissions on higher sales. The effect of this is now that when interest rates go up, prices on housing will have to continually go down. Nobody is going to be able to pay 10% on a mortgage for a $200k loan when in the past the same dempgraphic could only afford 6%. So, in effect, the realtors helped create the bubble that we are now looking at. I can't see how this bubble is going to get any better until prices come down another $50K on your average house.

On the other side the bankers knew that they were giving risky loans to people. I understand that it is up to people to understand the loans they are getting but sometimes they make it hard. I bought a house in this period. Most of the lenders I spoke to tried to get around the bad side of any given loan and some even said they didn't know the downside of certain loans that were obviously a bad loan. I DID do ALOT of research so I knew what I was getting into. However there are tons of people that are not as savvy and would assume the lender was helping them out while they were being taken to the cleaners. In my experience the lenders did try to talk me into some bad loans. Luckily I was smart enough to look into everything in detail. A large amount of people are either too trusting or just not savvy enough to keep up with their fast talk.

[atomicboy]

I can only imagine what he is thinking regarding his 'legacy'.

http://www.gpc-s.com/images/categories/502px-Flushing_toilet.jpg

[MashedPotatoes]

1) He had the nuts to take on Islamofacism in any of it's forms. He is still trying but most Americans want defeat. He does what he thinks is best in the face of overwhelming scrutiny and utter disrespect when he is trying to do his best for the country. People in the future will see that he was forward thinking instead of thinking of the moment.

2) He did his best before everything blew up to try to reform social security. Nobody seems to want to try to reform social security even though we all know the longer we wait the worse it will be.

Well not tons of examples right now. I'm not trying to say he is the virgin Mary but I think history will look at how he dealt with what he faced in a great light.

props man, you don't see too many people stickin' their necks out to defend the deciderer these days. :yourock:

[timvwcom]

Since the interest rates went down the realtors knew that people could afford to pay more for the same peice of property. Hence the price of any given house went up tons in that period. I'm not saying that any given realtor is to blame but the industry in general profits from higher commissions on higher sales. The effect of this is now that when interest rates go up, prices on housing will have to continually go down. Nobody is going to be able to pay 10% on a mortgage for a $200k loan when in the past the same dempgraphic could only afford 6%. So, in effect, the realtors helped create the bubble that we are now looking at. I can't see how this bubble is going to get any better until prices come down another $50K on your average house.

But Crass, on this part... that's called a "free market" or "capitalism", right?

Each seller decides (perhaps with their agents input) what price to ask for their property. That decision is completely removed from any other individual or groups control. This appears to be as close to free choice as I can image any decision is?

Then a different party, our buyer, (again perhaps with their agents input) decides what price they are willing to pay for that property. That decision is nearly completely removed from any other individual or groups control - I say nearly here because the lender has to agree to help out in most cases. And in other cases a different buyer could outbid this buyer on price. Again, as far as I can see this is free choice again.

You have a point that the interest rate will affect what amount of loan a buyer can repay based on a set income. And changes in the interest rate will affect first loan amounts, then have an effect eventually sales prices. But #1) certainly agents have NOTHING to do with setting mortgage interest rates... and #2) the change in values based on supply and demand (demand is changed by interest rate change) is as close to the definition of a free market as I can imagine. It has happened EVERY time rates have changed up or down for 100 years in the real estate market... the stock market... and every other market for that market.

In other words, I think you are blaming real estate agents for the changes of the free market here?

[rideit]

Crass believes that the gubment should control housing prices.
(according to his 'logic' presented in this thread.
That damn Bush...he simply lost control!

[timvwcom]

Let's get this thread back on track... sorry for the hijack rideit;


Ol' George suuure is quiet...

I can only imagine what he is thinking regarding his 'legacy'.
Now he can add 'catastrophic economic meltdown' to his resume...he IS an over-achiever, afterall!

Me wonders if Bush knows a lot more shit will hit the fan here soon?


White House cancels Bush statement after market mtg (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSWBT00972420080916)

WASHINGTON, Sept 16 (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush will no longer make a statement to reporters on Tuesday after meeting with his Working Group on Financial Markets as previously scheduled, the White House said.

"We decided it would be best to limit public comment about markets today, and so there will not be press coverage of the president's Working Group meeting this afternoon," White House spokesman Tony Fratto said amid seesawing stock indicies. "The president looks forward to the briefing by the Working Group."

The meeting was to include Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Securities and Exchange Commission Christopher Cox.

[Nobody Famous]

1) He had the nuts to take on Islamofacism in any of it's forms. He is still trying but most Americans want defeat. He does what he thinks is best in the face of overwhelming scrutiny and utter disrespect when he is trying to do his best for the country. People in the future will see that he was forward thinking instead of thinking of the moment.
As a generalization I'd agree with your point #1. But not just in the context of foreign policies.

If he's really true to his convictions, we'll see some criminal charges out of this. Four or five years ago the top level executives of Enron, Tyco, Adelphia (and some other major corporations) were very publicly arrested, arraigned and staged in 'perp walk' mode for the national media. And later tried and convicted of financial crimes the average joe couldn't possibly, and didn't, understand (post-trial juror interviews).

What those executives did now seems line school-yard pranks compared to the latest collapses. We'll see if the Bush Justice Dept. decides anyone in the executive suites broke any laws in this latest round.

[H-wood]

1) He had the nuts to take on Islamofacism in any of it's forms. He is still trying but most Americans want defeat. He does what he thinks is best in the face of overwhelming scrutiny and utter disrespect when he is trying to do his best for the country. People in the future will see that he was forward thinking instead of thinking of the moment.

2) He did his best before everything blew up to try to reform social security. Nobody seems to want to try to reform social security even though we all know the longer we wait the worse it will be.

I will you give you this: Bush will be remembered as extraordinarily successful at what he set out to do- facilitating the largest transfer of wealth and power in this country's history.

Most Americans want defeat. Doesn't that sound just a little stupid? And, if this is a democracy, if most of the people feel a certain way, doesn't that count for something?

The only "solution" to the SS "crisis" that Bush (and McCain) and the Republican party have been pushing for is privatization. I wonder how much we all would have lost in the little correction of the last few months had those fuckers actually pulled it off.

Think about it for a minute: what if all those privatized billions were invested in the supposedly safe organizations and financial products that are cratering right now. What if your only retirement fund turned out to be made out of worthless Florida mortgages?
That's what the Republicans "saving" social security would have done. We would have been paying trustworthy men in suits to invest our retirement cushion into a black hole.

The only people who come out ahead in these pump-and-dump cycles are the big-money boys that will be taking a commission on all those deregulated investment transactions, and getting a taxpayer-funded bail-out when the music stops and mom and pop lose everything they have. That's called Free Market Efficiency.

That's a familiar Republican theme- do you recall the first Bush administration? S & L bailout? John McCain was up to his asshole in that one too.

When you're running the whole show (pres, congress, senate, supreme court), you have to take responsibility for the results of your own policies. The 50% or more of this country that doesn't vote Republican has had about zero fucking say in anything that the Federal Government has done since Bush was elected, which is to say ass-fucking us all.

Right now George Bush is dogshit that the Republican Party is frantically trying to scrape off their shoes. But as long as enough voters in the right states can be kept in a state of hysterical denial, we'll all keep getting fucked by these shitweasels.

[From_the_NEK]

The only "solution" to the SS "crisis" that Bush (and McCain) and the Republican party have been pushing for is privatization. I wonder how much we all would have lost in the little correction of the last few months had those fuckers actually pulled it off.

Think about it for a minute: what if all those privatized billions were invested in the supposedly safe organizations and financial products that are cratering right now. What if your only retirement fund turned out to be made out of worthless Florida mortgages?


Holy Shit you're right. That is a scarey senario. I still have my doubts that I'll ever see a penny of SS when I am due to retire.

:yourock::yourock::yourock:

[tarkman1]

I still think he's going to be remembered as a great president within 20 years or so. Think what you want of me and I'm sure you will. Be equally as sure that I won't give a crap what you think.

Edit: I think you can thank the bankers and the realtors for the meltdown we are looking at. It's not so pleasant to recall but it was the Dems who were shouting for people to make loans to everybody which lead to tons of bad loans.

Bush will go down as one of the worst Presidents in the history of the United States. I said that four years ago. I will say it in the future.

Seriously, I cannot think of one exceptional thing that he did during his time in office. As for the financial crises, if that fucking idiot wasn't too busy claiming his tax cuts to the reason for the uptick in the economy during his first term when it was really the results of the financial vehicles contributing to the housing bubble then he may have actually done something to reduce the sham mortgages perpetuating the party. He didn't. I maintain because he didn't want to admit being wrong about the reason for the economic growth.

Above all, it's absolutely inexcusable to take a country to war over evidence as flimsy (really - nonexistent) as such that was the rationale for going into Iraq.


So many debacles happen on GWBs watch. So many.

[Adolf Allerbush]

1) Well not tons of examples right now. I'm not trying to say he is the virgin Mary but I think history will look at how he dealt with what he faced in a great light.

What would Bush need to do to make you think poorly of his job as president?

[Rasputin]

I will you give you this: Bush will be remembered as extraordinarily successful at what he set out to do- facilitating the largest transfer of wealth and power in this country's history.



Mission accomplished! I agree, that's what he was installed to do. It's amazing that so few understand it, even though it was so blatantly obvious.

[grrrr]

Sometimes people have to act selflessly so that those in the future won't have to deal with the problems we left them. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices.

Instead everybody today is "me, me, me, me....."


Oh my god, that is the funniest thing I've ever seen on this forum!!!!

Good thing none of us will have to deal with a huge federal deficit on top of an economy gone to shit! Meanwhile it's not like his me, me, me friends have totally raked it in! What a good, good president!

[Hutch]

Jesus christ, Crass. read a fucking newspaper sometime.

[David Witherspoon]

I still have my doubts that I'll ever see a penny of SS when I am due to retire.Being the True Conservative™ I always have been, I laughed the day I received my SS card. Filed it away, figuring whatever SS money I might ever receive wouldn't be worth factoring in to any plans I might ever make.

Although I do put stock in the markets (not much choice, gotta put it somewhere), I don't even rely on them for my future wellbeing. It's not hard to do the stats & simulations well enough to see that stochasticity rules the outcome. No matter what plans you run, if the markets fluctuate enough, there are no guarantees, not even half-baked soft-shelled backstop guarantees.

Once you realize that, though, it's worth going back and looking at the quantitative impacts of various plans. No guarantees, sure, and a frightfully large probability of bad outcomes, but still - quite a high probability of a good outcome if you manage yourself, your economy, and your political establishment halfway adequately.

And maybe - after this triple-bypass open-heart surgery and left-arm amputation - we'll get a clue.
After all, a pound of cure prompts an ounce of prevention. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0917/p01s02-usec.html)

[From_the_NEK]

Being the True Conservative™ I always have been, I laughed the day I received my SS card. Filed it away, figuring whatever SS money I might ever receive wouldn't be worth factoring in to any plans I might ever make.

Although I do put stock in the markets (not much choice, gotta put it somewhere), I don't even rely on them for my future wellbeing. It's not hard to do the stats & simulations well enough to see that stochasticity rules the outcome. No matter what plans you run, if the markets fluctuate enough, there are no guarantees, not even half-baked soft-shelled backstop guarantees.

Once you realize that, though, it's worth going back and looking at the quantitative impacts of various plans. No guarantees, sure, and a frightfully large probability of bad outcomes, but still - quite a high probability of a good outcome if you manage yourself, your economy, and your political establishment halfway adequately.

And maybe - after this triple-bypass open-heart surgery and left-arm amputation - we'll get a clue.
After all, a pound of cure prompts an ounce of prevention. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0917/p01s02-usec.html)

I wonder what the last few days has done to my 401K? The past year hasn't been kind but I definitly hadn't lost my shirt. Luckily I'm still fairly young and have another 30+ years to continue saving money.

[David Witherspoon]

30 years is a good start.
Diversify it worldwide and across every asset class that is actually an asset.
Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, leave more than a small fraction invested in your employer's stock, or in a limited set dictated by your employer's HR.

Then back it up with a skillset (or two) that you can comfortably, safely and enjoyably employ to generate a living income for at least thirty more years after you "retire."

That's the only way to substantially patch the uncertainty gap left by potential market disasters.

Cover the remaining gap with a very solid disability insurance policy. Given recent events - might need to diversify that too.

[From_the_NEK]

30 years is a good start.
Diversify it worldwide and across every asset class that is actually an asset.
Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, leave more than a small fraction invested in your employer's stock, or in a limited set dictated by your employer's HR.

Then back it up with a skillset (or two) that you can comfortably, safely and enjoyably employ to generate a living income for at least thirty more years after you "retire."

That's the only way to substantially patch the uncertainty gap left by potential market disasters.

Cover the remaining gap with a very solid disability insurance policy. Given recent events - might need to diversify that too.

Luckily, no company stock requirements. I've tried to diversify as much as possible but I'll need to re-evalute where my 401K investments lie once the current dust storm recedes. I'm guessing I'm taking on a big loss this quarter. Hopefully, not more than what I contributed.
I suppose skiing really isn't a skill set that will generate an income when I "retire" will it? :p Maybe if I combine skiing with rally car racing? :biggrin:

[Grange]

I still think he's going to be remembered as a great president within 20 years or so. Think what you want of me and I'm sure you will. Be equally as sure that I won't give a crap what you think.

Edit: I think you can thank the bankers and the realtors for the meltdown we are looking at. It's not so pleasant to recall but it was the Dems who were shouting for people to make loans to everybody which lead to tons of bad loans.

You sound like the guy in the pinstrip suit on Morning Joe. He was blaming liberals and low-income people for the crisis.

[Airsatz]

I'm sure the man is straight chillin'!

Ever heard the phrase "staycation"?