An outsider perspective...

[toiletduck]

So, this is probably a can of worms... but I'm sure a lot of non-Americans are thinking the same.

Why would any of you want another Republican president? As far as I can see, 8 years ago the dollar was at 1.6:1 with the pound, all was good - and now you're in a totally senseless war with a country that didn't even attack you, have destroyed all alliances, friendship and trust with the international community - and the rich are richer, the poor are poorer, and the western economy is slipping vs the growing might of the far east.

So, how come people are so actively supporting the guy that lost to Bush as your best choice of leader 8 years ago? Why do people want to basically carry on - with some slight improvements obviously, and I'm not going to blame GWB or his party for all of the world's woes as that's just naive, but some of the blame has to rest on their shoulders - as the last 8 years?

It's not like Mccain is actually offering anything tangibly beneficial - I mean, Obama's message of change was fine for someone who's probably not going to win their primary campaign, but he seems like a reasonable guy even now he's had to change gear and start playing the political game. The whole Palin thing boggles my mind too - no matter how great she might be, there's got to be a 50% chance she's your next President in 2 years time. As scary as another 4 years of what I've seen for the last 8 is, the idea of having someone who's been pulled out of relative obscurity running the biggest show in the West is beyond belief.

Call me a librodouche all you like, but I'm voting Conservative in the next UK elections...

[advres]

Call me a librodouche all you like, but I'm voting Conservative in the next UK elections...

http://i26.tinypic.com/mcsy9l.jpg

[Big Balls]

Because it pisses Europeans off :)

[Jer]

Bush isn't really a Republican anymore - just a loser.

[bklyn]

The ability to accept campaign platforms (aka lies) from people who seem like 'regular folks' or appear like they could be a neighbor
The ability to accept campaign platforms (aka lies) about people who seem to not have anything in common with you
"Wedge Issues" (gay rights, abortion, race and gender politics, religion, Guns!)
A growing distrust of intellectuals
A genuine respect for war heroes
Disdain for social programs for the poor (welfare, et al)
Desire for social programs for mid and upper classes (mortgage bailouts, et al)
The appearance of support for lower taxes and smaller government even though this hasn't been the case for some time
Loving SUVs n trucks and not wanting to go back to the Pintos and Datsuns of the 70s
Not wanting to pay for the excesses of the last 15 years
Not wanting to conserve resources if it involves significant sacrifice
Fear of terrorism and the willingness to give up civil liberties to avoid further unrest

.... etc

[Big Balls]

Republicans aren't Republicans anymore. There's tax and spend Democrats and then there's spend and spend Republicans.

[Jer]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

FREE MONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

[pisteoff]

The ability to accept campaign platforms (aka lies) from people who seem like 'regular folks' or appear like they could be a neighbor
The ability to accept campaign platforms (aka lies) about people who seem to not have anything in common with you
"Wedge Issues" (gay rights, abortion, race and gender politics, religion, Guns!)
A growing distrust of intellectuals
A genuine respect for war heroes
Disdain for social programs for the poor (welfare, et al)
Desire for social programs for mid and upper classes (mortgage bailouts, et al)
The appearance of support for lower taxes and smaller government even though this hasn't been the case for some time
Loving SUVs n trucks and not wanting to go back to the Pintos and Datsuns of the 70s
Not wanting to pay for the excesses of the last 15 years
Not wanting to conserve resources if it involves significant sacrifice
Fear of terrorism and the willingness to give up civil liberties to avoid further unrest

.... etc

Nailed it.

[toiletduck]

Nailed it.

Well, that's the list of "reasons people are stupid to vote Republican." Except the respect for war heroes - I'm all for respecting them, but my Grandad fought in WW2, got torpedoed twice and has a bunch of awesome stories that make me super proud of him. Don't think he'll be the next PM though - in fact, I'd put forward that anyone who's been in an extreme war situation would make a terrible candidate due to clouded reasoning process from personal experience.

For what it's worth, I don't think Europeans mind at all that the USA is merrily destroying itself. GB is the only European country that gets effected, and we're not "proper" Euros. I doubt China minds either.

So, really - besides closed mindedness/personal greed - why are the Republican voters on here voting Republican? Don't answer if you're voting Democrat, I'm not interested in anyone that shares my point of view or just wants to bash Repubs... There're a lot of smart people in the world and they must have a reasoned explanation to what I'm missing from a non-native's point of view.

[St. Jerry]

Not a simple answer. America, for the most part, is not the first-world country you see when you visit cities like Boston and New York City.

Some good insight in this book. A very interesting read, well worth the $9 to buy a used copy.

http://product.half.ebay.com/Deer-Hunting-with-Jesus_W0QQtgZinfoQQprZ63349757

"Synopsis
Joe Bageant returns to his hometown of Winchester, Virginia, at the end of the 20th century and is outraged by how working-class Americans are duped by the Republican right, neglected by corporate America, and lost in their own misguided haze of fast food, beer, and God. Bageant writes with fondness about his roots, but also provides a savage and bitingly funny critique of how America has betrayed its blue-collar workers and how they have betrayed themselves."

[PassTheDutchie]

Not a simple answer. America, for the most part, is not the first-world country you see when you visit cities like Boston and New York City.

Some good insight in this book. A very interesting read, well worth the $9 to buy a used copy.

http://product.half.ebay.com/Deer-Hunting-with-Jesus_W0QQtgZinfoQQprZ63349757

"Synopsis
Joe Bageant returns to his hometown of Winchester, Virginia, at the end of the 20th century and is outraged by how working-class Americans are duped by the Republican right, neglected by corporate America, and lost in their own misguided haze of fast food, beer, and God. Bageant writes with fondness about his roots, but also provides a savage and bitingly funny critique of how America has betrayed its blue-collar workers and how they have betrayed themselves."

You get the government you deserve... Thomas Frank also wrote a similar appraisal worth reading, "What's the Matter with Kansas?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What's_the_Matter_with_Kansas

[toiletduck]

It just horrifies me that people with access to the internet are so totally blind to what seems to be horribly obvious. I guess god, guns and gas do set the agenda - it really shouldn't be suprising given what obviously smart people in the political process have to reduce themselves to, to pander to the voting public. I'm gonna buy that book anyway - I just finished reading Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72.

[AsheanMT]

Said it before and I'll say it again. Its all a charade. Obama or McCain its all the same. Politics is pretend now. Its all about economics. Decisions that have been made, are being made, and will be made are done so by folks with the most money. Large multinational corporations and the world banking industry are the ones responsible for the values of monetary currency and those affected by it. Its a rather deep and shocking rabbit hole that most won't dare to even look at much less jump into.You can go on and pretend that your vote has something to do with it but it really doesn't.

[peterslovo]

Said it before and I'll say it again. Its all a charade. Obama or McCain its all the same. Politics is pretend now. Its all about economics. Decisions that have been made, are being made, and will be made are done so by folks with the most money. Large multinational corporations and the world banking industry are the ones responsible for the values of monetary currency and those affected by it. Its a rather deep and shocking rabbit hole that most won't dare to even look at much less jump into.You can go on and pretend that your vote has something to do with it but it really doesn't.

I think the movie Network nailed it all...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_AI8mC8XucY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_AI8mC8XucY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Especially the media and the voter...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MTN3s2iVKKI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MTN3s2iVKKI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[toiletduck]

While I agree in general, the specifics that people can effect are worth considering and worth your vote. Even if it's a charade, it's all we've got. It just worries me that people can not be willing to even give your rabbit hole a cursory glance - I mean, really, if your average American has suddenly decided they're voting Repub because Palin is all nice and has "small town values". In the "Obama called Sarah a pig" thread, Crud's Uncle has declared "I like Sarah". Even if you buy that anyone high enough in the political game has anything in common with you, why does that make them a person you want to lead the country?! Jesus.

Anyway, if you guys don't want Obama, I think England would be glad to have him. While you have potential change vs potential more of the same, we have "appeasement dull and mundane" vs "a little conservative dull and mundane" vs "liberal and definitely won't win". Oh, and the Monster Raving Looney and British Nazi Party.

[Mathematics]

While I agree in general, the specifics that people can effect are worth considering and worth your vote. Even if it's a charade, it's all we've got. It just worries me that people can not be willing to even give your rabbit hole a cursory glance - I mean, really, if your average American has suddenly decided they're voting Repub because Palin is all nice and has "small town values". In the "Obama called Sarah a pig" thread, Crud's Uncle has declared "I like Sarah". Even if you buy that anyone high enough in the political game has anything in common with you, why does that make them a person you want to lead the country?! Jesus.

Anyway, if you guys don't want Obama, I think England would be glad to have him. While you have potential change vs potential more of the same, we have "appeasement dull and mundane" vs "a little conservative dull and mundane" vs "liberal and definitely won't win". Oh, and the Monster Raving Looney and British Nazi Party.

You sir, are obviously no patriot. Sensationalist & alarmist politics is the American way. Get over yourself.

[toiletduck]

You sir, are obviously no patriot

Luckily, I'm not American, so have no need for such self-assuring insecure nationalism ;)

[powder11]

There're a lot of smart people in the world and they must have a reasoned explanation to what I'm missing from a non-native's point of view.

Republicans pander to the bible thumpers. Bible thumpers tend to breed like rabbits, so there's lots of bible thumper votes available in America. When motivated by a cause (Sarah Palin), bible thumpers vote in droves. Bible thumpers have never been to Europe and some don't really believe it exists. As confounding as it may seem to the rest of the world, most Americans could care less what they think.

[The AD]

Said it before and I'll say it again. Its all a charade. Obama or McCain its all the same. Politics is pretend now.

So you don't think anything would be different today had Al Gore been elected in 2000? I really can't imagine that's true.

[Buster Highmen]

Said it before and I'll say it again. Its all a charade. Obama or McCain its all the same. Politics is pretend now. Its all about economics. Decisions that have been made, are being made, and will be made are done so by folks with the most money. Large multinational corporations and the world banking industry are the ones responsible for the values of monetary currency and those affected by it. Its a rather deep and shocking rabbit hole that most won't dare to even look at much less jump into.You can go on and pretend that your vote has something to do with it but it really doesn't.
They said that about the last two elections. They were clearly wrong then. Are you really, really sure it doesn't make any difference?

[Cliff Huckable]

A pretty good obituary, bklyn. R.I.P., United States of America
(The only thing I would add is "A manufactured distrust of the United Nations."


The ability to accept campaign platforms (aka lies) from people who seem like 'regular folks' or appear like they could be a neighbor
The ability to accept campaign platforms (aka lies) about people who seem to not have anything in common with you
"Wedge Issues" (gay rights, abortion, race and gender politics, religion, Guns!)
A growing distrust of intellectuals
A genuine respect for war heroes
Disdain for social programs for the poor (welfare, et al)
Desire for social programs for mid and upper classes (mortgage bailouts, et al)
The appearance of support for lower taxes and smaller government even though this hasn't been the case for some time
Loving SUVs n trucks and not wanting to go back to the Pintos and Datsuns of the 70s
Not wanting to pay for the excesses of the last 15 years
Not wanting to conserve resources if it involves significant sacrifice
Fear of terrorism and the willingness to give up civil liberties to avoid further unrest

.... etc

[PNWbrit]

how come people are so actively supporting the guy that lost to Bush as your best choice of leader 8 years ago?

No one has even come close to being able to explain this to me.

It's surprising that the Obama campaign haven't been using it. Yet?

[timvwcom]

So, really - besides closed mindedness/personal greed - why are the Republican voters on here voting Republican?

Seem's you actually answered your own question here, and have a quite good understanding of the issue.

[PNWbrit]

They said that about the last two elections. They were clearly wrong then. Are you really, really sure it doesn't make any difference?

Even if his vapid conspiracy theory were true there seems like a lot of stuff that this Carlyleish Group leave to the politicians we do elect and there's a significant disparity between their stances that should be more than enough to decide.

Just crayoning in a sardonic third candidate or splitting the support of a less disliked one doesn't seem so very smart to me, it certainly isn't going to achieve anything.

[The AD]

No one has even come close to being able to explain this to me.

It's surprising that the Obama campaign haven't been using it. Yet?

I don't think it's that surprising. To do so, you'd be more or less telling those who supported Bush in 2000 that they were stupid for doing so.

[fez]

Republicans aren't Republicans anymore. There's tax and spend Democrats and then there's spend and spend Republicans.

i prefer borrow and spend republicans.

there is nothing fiscally conservative about the republicans

[powder11]

No one has even come close to being able to explain this to me.

It's surprising that the Obama campaign haven't been using it. Yet?

Although a logical argument, Obama would be wasting his time portraying McLame as the 1st loser from 2000. Americans love the underdog who stays in the game.
Obama is better off being Obama and beating the "change" drum people so desperately want to hear. If Obama can stick to "change" and the economy, he will win. If he focusses on McLame and Palin, he will lose.
McLame is just another face behind a political party. Most republican voters are so against the liberal agenda they will back pretty much any candidate the party deems electable. When the candidate is elected, he repays the party backing by allowing the machine to run roughshod over anything and everything that they want.

[hutash]

Douglas Adams hit the nail of the head nearly 30 years ago..."The purpose of elected office is not to wield power, but rather to draw attention from those that actually have the power. The more outrageous the candidate the better. On this point Zaphod Bebblebrox was the perfect candidate."

Once again a British comedian has far more insight into world affairs then most politicians.

[PNWbrit]

P11 I think the McCain=Bush back beat works very well when combined with a change snare drum. Maybe the "but he lost to Bush in 2000?" would be like some more.... cowbell?

[toiletduck]

toiletduck=clueless wankr tag made me smile - i love that someone is so angry that i'd ask the question, but not justify why a) i'm a wanker or b) why they're not the stereotype described in thread...

[Buster Highmen]

toiletduck=clueless wankr tag made me smile - i love that someone is so angry that i'd ask the question, but not justify why a) i'm a wanker or b) why they're not the stereotype described in thread...

Have they sent you whiney PMs yet?

[PNWbrit]

The friends requests from lame aliarses are also an indication you've flummoxed 'em

[St. Jerry]

Well, that's the list of "reasons people are stupid to vote Republican." Except the respect for war heroes - I'm all for respecting them, but my Grandad fought in WW2, got torpedoed twice and has a bunch of awesome stories that make me super proud of him. Don't think he'll be the next PM though - in fact, I'd put forward that anyone who's been in an extreme war situation would make a terrible candidate due to clouded reasoning process from personal experience.

For what it's worth, I don't think Europeans mind at all that the USA is merrily destroying itself. GB is the only European country that gets effected, and we're not "proper" Euros. I doubt China minds either.

So, really - besides closed mindedness/personal greed - why are the Republican voters on here voting Republican? Don't answer if you're voting Democrat, I'm not interested in anyone that shares my point of view or just wants to bash Repubs... There're a lot of smart people in the world and they must have a reasoned explanation to what I'm missing from a non-native's point of view.

chirp...chirp (silence) chirp...chirp (silence)

[timvwcom]

chirp...chirp (silence) chirp...chirp (silence)

This works too;
http://www.sunsetwestproductions.com/crickets.wav

Reminds me of the job of a Republican pollster;

http://www.karenfayeth.com/hellohello.jpg

[Airsatz]

Duck, I think you have set the bar for coherence a bit too high to get any responses to your question. Congratulations!

Its a pity, really, as I'd love to see repub supporters explain themselves in rational fashion, if that is possible.

Tim, that graphic is GOLD!

[enlosandes]

As an American citizen living out of the empire for the last 3 plus years, I too cannot figure out what my fellow country folks are thinking.

[ArmadaBC]

They don't think, this board even with all the bs and stupid arguments is very well versed compared to alot of the people out there. That isn't to say that Americans are stupid, rather that they don't care. There is a large amount of the population that doesn't care to follow politics or become informed on the issues. They simply ignore it, everyday perfectly nice people who don't give a shit who runs the place as long as there life doesn't change.

A couple years back the RNC was in Philadelphia and you would be amazed at the number of people who had no idea it was even going on, there thousands of signs and cops everywhere, the news is nothing but RNC and alot of people had no idea. My experience is that they weren't stupid people they just didn't care. It's that old negative freedoms thing in which I can focus on whatever stupid mundane task because someone else is going to take care of it for me.

I think to some extent this fuels a radicalism of the parties, in which only those most into their particular ideology vote. The politician's pander to these people and we end up with a system that doesn't really reflect a great number of Americans.

I did a shitty job of explaining it but Gary Heart of all people had a pretty good book discussing similar themes.

Free (sort of)
http://books.google.com/books?id=aVWyHK1zzmIC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=gary+heart+Restoration+of+the+Republic&source=web&ots=eQtip1zovB&sig=HcU5qGhmMpCVYxRTqmb_NWFQdU4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP13,M1