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mntlion
09-06-2008, 02:54 PM
So I have a Asko washer/dryer and the washer is dead. Replacing it with a moffat washer
The wall plug is 240 (220?) and that plug into the dryer, and the old washer plugs into the back of the dryer.
Issue is that the new moffat washer is 110 (120?)V What ever "normal" plug is for north america.
Soooo can I get an adapter to dumb down the voltage, so I can plug in the new washer to the old dryer?

or do I need a new 110 normal plug?

Core Shot
09-06-2008, 03:01 PM
I don't know of an adapter, but any amateur electrician can rewire that plug to be a regular 110v outlet.

Red wire = 110v when you connect it to neutral wire (white)
Black wire = 110v when you connect it to neutral wire

when you connect black to red, you get double the volts, or 220v.

So all you need to do is convert the outlet box to a regular outlet. Pretty easy job, but you should find someone comfortable working with electricity.

L7
09-06-2008, 03:07 PM
I don't know of an adapter, but any amateur electrician can rewire that plug to be a regular 110v outlet.

Red wire = 110v when you connect it to neutral wire (white)
Black wire = 110v when you connect it to neutral wire

when you connect black to red, you get double the volts, or 220v.

So all you need to do is convert the outlet box to a regular outlet. Pretty easy job, but you should find someone comfortable working with electricity.

I think you're missing that he still needs the 220 for the dryer if I read correctly. So what he needs is another outlet next to it that is 110. Still easy to do I would think and I'm sure he can find someone with the ability who needs some gear.

That machine didn't last very long did it?

Core Shot
09-06-2008, 03:15 PM
I think you're missing that he still needs the 220 for the dryer if I read correctly. So what he needs is another outlet next to it that is 110. Still easy to do I would think and I'm sure he can find someone with the ability who needs some gear.

That machine didn't last very long did it?

D'oh. I missed that part.

Yeah, you could mount up a new box next to the dryer box, and pull the 110v off one of the legs. Just need to make sure there is a neutral and a ground wire in the 220 box.

mntlion
09-06-2008, 03:19 PM
The dryer still plugs into the wall as is, with 220

the issue is the old washer plugged in to the dryer, with 220, and now I need that to change

What I need to know is:

1) how to change the new washer plug to 220 male end, but still have it run on 110

2) the old dryer outlet (female end) to 110, but have it put out only 110 also

3) how to wire a new, 110 box to the side of the old, single 220 box.(this is what coreshot has answered I think)


L7: 8-10 years out of it. we bought them new, when we bought the house...

advres
09-06-2008, 03:20 PM
Adapters don't reduce the voltage.

You would need a step down converter, but I would just have an electrician run a new line if it were me. Are there any other close 110 outlets? This is a washing machine and it should run fine on a heavy duty extension cord.

EDIT - Your number 3 solution will be the only one worth wasting time/money doing if you don't do what I suggested. And yes, he was right. There is usually a 110 line on the left of the panel and one on the right with a neutral in between. If you take only one leg of the 110 and the neutral you will have 110. Be careful though. I was hit by 220 before and it was less than fun.

And if you do it, don't put another box there... hardwire your washer pigtail right into the existing box using the correct wires.

L7
09-06-2008, 03:37 PM
I had to read advres's last line of advice a couple of times but get it now. The only thing with that is when you lop off the plug if the thing ever needs warranty work they may frown on that modification. Other than that it is an easy solution. Mounting another box right there should be pretty easy too as coreshot describes.

I guess 8 to 10 years is ok. Maybe the front loads don't last as long. I was thinking they were more the era of renovating the place which I suppose is quite recent really.

edit/ MAYBE you could do the same thing on the back of the washer and change the plug BUT it depends how that is wired and leads attached (not sure). Also it just means you'd have to do it all again when the dryer goes and the new one doesn't have the outlet on the back of any type.

advres
09-06-2008, 03:52 PM
That's kinda why I suggest either a new line being run from the breaker or an extension cord. I don't know off the top of my head, any dryers that have outlets in the back, let alone a 110. At some point you are either going to need a new line or need to run an extension cord...

TWINS
09-06-2008, 05:39 PM
House wiring usually does not have a nuetral/common wire for a dryer circuit.Only 2 line conductors and possibly a ground wire depending on how old it is.If you count 4 wires comning into the 220 outlet box then you are good to go.Otherwise run another line over for the washer or get a heavy duty extension cord to power it from a existing outlet.

bmg97
09-06-2008, 06:17 PM
D'oh. I missed that part.

Yeah, you could mount up a new box next to the dryer box, and pull the 110v off one of the legs. Just need to make sure there is a neutral and a ground wire in the 220 box.

You cant do that !!! Its not about the voltage of the leg its the amprege that you have to worry about. The leg feeding the 220 is probably like a double 30 breaker. That is way to much amprege for a washer. It needs to be on a 15 to 20 amp with 12 gauge feeding the receptacle. You can probably use 14 if you want to be cheap but using a thicker gauge provide less resistance thus better flow of electric and makes the appliance run to its full potential. You also can't change an appliance from 220 to 110 or vise versa unless you feel like seeing something pretty Shocking :) Like mentioned run a new run from the panel to the receptacle.

L7
09-06-2008, 08:31 PM
You cant do that !!! Its not about the voltage of the leg its the amprege that you have to worry about. The leg feeding the 220 is probably like a double 30 breaker. That is way to much amprege for a washer. It needs to be on a 15 to 20 amp with 12 gauge feeding the receptacle. You can probably use 14 if you want to be cheap but using a thicker gauge provide less resistance thus better flow of electric and makes the appliance run to its full potential. You also can't change an appliance from 220 to 110 or vise versa unless you feel like seeing something pretty Shocking :) Like mentioned run a new run from the panel to the receptacle.

The dryer already split the amperage with the plug in the back that the dryer plugged into. What's the difference? The line must already have enough amperage to handle. Unless of course it had some sort of override circuit that prevented both being run at the same time (which would suck).

bmg97
09-06-2008, 10:29 PM
The dryer already split the amperage with the plug in the back that the dryer plugged into. What's the difference? The line must already have enough amperage to handle. Unless of course it had some sort of override circuit that prevented both being run at the same time (which would suck).

The receptacle the dryer is plugged into has two 30 amp circuits being brought to it with probably 8 to 10 gauge wire. That is to much amperage and power to the washer. Could cause a fire. Not sure how you could split it there. It would have to be on a different breaker.

Core Shot
09-06-2008, 10:46 PM
The receptacle the dryer is plugged into has two 30 amp circuits being brought to it with probably 8 to 10 gauge wire. That is to much amperage and power to the washer. Could cause a fire. Not sure how you could split it there. It would have to be on a different breaker.

No.

It is more amperage than needed (which is never a problem for a device).

The problem you are thinking of is if you put a 30 amp load on a 12 guage wire, the wire can melt and cause a fire since the 30 amp breaker won't trip.
But you can always put a 20 amp load on a 8 gauge wire and 30 amp breaker with no probelms.

In theory if there is a short in the appliance, and you are expecting a 20amp breaker to trip, and it doesn't, resulting in a fire because the internal wires in the appliance are too small.
But, every appliance has small wires inside it, that are suited for the intended amperage draw of the appliance.

Ever plug a 2 watt device into a 20amp 110volt outlet? all the time.

ever wire a low wattage light fixture into a 15 amp circuit and notice that the 14 gauge house wiring was being connected to a 22 gauge thin strand of wire? all the time.
Its O.K.

the original design had a 110v plug on a 220v appliance. How did that work?
Perhaps there was a 20amp breaker in the appliance to protect the 110v plug, but I doubt it.

The more likely concern is that there isn't a neutral and a ground in the 220v box.
Only recently in the US did electric stoves change to 4 wire plugs. That is why I said have someone that knows what to look for take a look at it first.

Bottom line to answer your concern, it is not a fire hazard.

It may not be kosher by the electrical code, but that its not unsafe if done right.

Shaggy
09-06-2008, 11:12 PM
Everyone is right, kinda.

The dryer outlet will have 4 prongs, 1 ground, 2 hot (black and red, probably) and a neutral (white). The outlet will be wired for 30 amps, with 10ga wire.

The voltage between both hot leads is 220v because they're fed from the two separate buses in the panel. However, the voltage between either of the hot leads and the neutral is 110v.

This means that yes, you can hook an outlet up to one of the hot wires and the neutral and have a 110v outlet.

The problem (and it's a huge problem), is that the dryer plug is a 30A plug, and regular 110v outlets are 15 or 20A. The washing machine would run fine, but if there is ever a fault (ie the washing machine's motor seizes up, a wire inside the machine comes loose, etc) then things could catch fire.

The solution is to find a way to throw a 15A fuse or breaker between the dryer outlet and the washing machine outlet. You can buy those push-to-reset button breakers you see in power bars (or just cannibalize said power bar) and mount it in a junction box somehow, or get a fusible disconnect switch and use it. You only need to fuse the hot lead going to the 110v outlet. This still isn't "code", but it'll keep your house from burning down.

Shaggy
09-06-2008, 11:26 PM
ever wire a low wattage light fixture into a 15 amp circuit and notice that the 14 gauge house wiring was being connected to a 22 gauge thin strand of wire? all the time.
Its O.K.



It's O.K. for very short distances, inside steel junction boxes, etc.



Perhaps there was a 20amp breaker in the appliance to protect the 110v plug, but I doubt it.

It would have had a 15 amp breaker or fuse. So does the outlet on your stove (which is plugged into a 40a 220/110 outlet). CSA, and UL would never certify an appliance that provided a 110V outlet with a un-fused run back to the mains 30a circuit.



Bottom line to answer your concern, it is not a fire hazard.

It may not be kosher by the electrical code, but that its not unsafe if done right.Done right means fusing the circuit down to 15a, which would be safe, but still not kosher by the electrical code (which demands a brand new home-run back to the panel, just for the washer).





The more likely concern is that there isn't a neutral and a ground in the 220v box.
Only recently in the US did electric stoves change to 4 wire plugs. That is why I said have someone that knows what to look for take a look at it first.

You're have a valid point here. If it's a 4 prong dryer outlet, it's good to go. Otherwise it's time to pull out the mutlimeter.

Edit: Actually, if the old dryer had a plug in the back for the washer, there's a neutral.

L7
09-06-2008, 11:46 PM
No.


the original design had a 110v plug on a 220v appliance. How did that work?
Perhaps there was a 20amp breaker in the appliance to protect the 110v plug, but I doubt it.



I believe the plug was a 220 as was the power the washer ran on. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue at this point. Funky set up to be sure.

For the other problem of too high a breaker on the original line couldn't the 120 plug being installed just be a 'ground fault' plug like in bathrooms with it's own breaker in it. Outdoor plugs here have them too. Or do you guys not have those in the states? Still take the power off a single pole in the 220 outlet and then the ground fault 120 plug. Covers all issues then doesn't it?

Cappy Raham must need new footbeds by now. He's the only guy I did footbeds for with worse pronation than me. Of course if doing it isn't code it's likely he wouldn't do it. He'd likely still tell you how you could do it though.

Snow Dog
09-07-2008, 09:05 AM
Shaggy summed it up but lets clear another myth -- a ground fault plug measures current between hot and ground and trips if even a few milli-amps are detected. It is not a circuit breaker. A circuit breaker measures between hot and neutral and trips if too much (15A on a normal household circuit) current is detected.

It would be odd for the original washer to be 240V. Mntlion needs to measure the voltage. If it's 110-120 then make an adaptor cable from the old washer power cord.

L7
09-07-2008, 09:12 AM
Hence the name I guess. I'm sure it is 220 and that's the whole point it is odd....very. Ok so this ground fault won't work for a fix I need somewhere. I was all over that option.

Core Shot
09-07-2008, 09:42 AM
Everyone is right, kinda.

The problem (and it's a huge problem), is that the dryer plug is a 30A plug, and regular 110v outlets are 15 or 20A. The washing machine would run fine, but if there is ever a fault (ie the washing machine's motor seizes up, a wire inside the machine comes loose, etc) then things could catch fire.


Its a problem, but not a huge problem. Clearly not code. Clearly not ideal.

If the washer shorts out, it will blow a 30amp breaker. Any full short will blow any breaker (within reason - at some point the wire is so small it will catch fire, but 12 or 14 gauge wire should have no problem tripping a 30amp breaker). Yes, there will be more current just prior to the breaker trip, but only for a millisecond.

The real concern is the slow-blow, the steady draw of too much current that makes a wire hot,and causes the wire insulation (or anything nearby) to catch fire without actually shorting out the wire.
This can happen with any appliance that goes haywire. Your cell phone charger can melt down and catch fire and never trip your 15 or 20 amp breaker.

Aside from this bizzare request by mntlion, think about the typical 220v appliance with a neutral wire. Do you think all the internal guts, lights and buzzers (other than the heating element, which is the only part that really needs 220v) run on 220v? or are they configured to only use one hot leg, and thus run on 110v? I would say the latter case in most appliances.



The solution is to find a way to throw a 15A fuse or breaker between the dryer outlet and the washing machine outlet. You can buy those push-to-reset button breakers you see in power bars (or just cannibalize said power bar) and mount it in a junction box somehow, or get a fusible disconnect switch and use it. You only need to fuse the hot lead going to the 110v outlet. This still isn't "code", but it'll keep your house from burning down.

For sure, putting an in-line 15A breaker would get closer to true code compliance and safety.

All this angels on pinheads may be moot if mntlion has easy access from his breaker to his laundry for a new home run, or if he has a nearby 110v outlet to draw power from. I originally thought he was converting from 220v and could use a 15or 20A breaker over the 10 gauge wire to have only 110v in the laundry room. That is fully code compliant.

Finally, to finish this thread, here is a commercially available adapter device, and yes it contains a built-in 20amp circuit breaker for each 110v outlet
http://refreshyourhome.com/new-steamer-windows/220-110V-CONVERTER.html

I am sure I could find 15amp versions if I looked for them.

L7
09-07-2008, 10:33 AM
Who said finished? OK so away from Mtnlion who seems to have options needed. With a 220 plug and breaker set up (in Canada at least) is it not usually 2-15amp breakers joined to give the 30A service. So in effect each leg would still be on it's own 15A breaker. I have a 220 outdoor outlet by a manhole to run an irrigation pump. It gets shut down in winter but the potable water goes through the same manhole and needs to function and not freeze. I would like to have a 110 outlet beside the 220 so in winter I could plug in a simple heat source (light, small heater) to ensure the 3" line isn't going to freeze at -40. Hadn't put much thought into it until this but now it seems it's much easier than I thought. I would do a ground fault anyway but it seems to me that single leg of the 220 would still be on a 15A breaker.

Hopefully I can still talk to an electrician up there on Mon. I just don't want the billing with it unless it's really easy and cheap.

Shaggy
09-07-2008, 12:29 PM
Who said finished? OK so away from Mtnlion who seems to have options needed. With a 220 plug and breaker set up (in Canada at least) is it not usually 2-15amp breakers joined to give the 30A service. So in effect each leg would still be on it's own 15A breaker.


No. For a dryer both breakers in a double-breaker are 30A. A stove outlet is usually on a 40A double breaker.

In Canada there are 15A double-pole breakers in your panel but they're probably for the outlets on your kitchen counter, called a kitchen-split configuration and are designed to give you two 15A circuits at each outlet. They could also be for baseboard heaters.

There are exceptions to this, such as:


I have a 220 outdoor outlet by a manhole to run an irrigation pump. It gets shut down in winter but the potable water goes through the same manhole and needs to function and not freeze. I would like to have a 110 outlet beside the 220 so in winter I could plug in a simple heat source (light, small heater) to ensure the 3" line isn't going to freeze at -40. Hadn't put much thought into it until this but now it seems it's much easier than I thought. I would do a ground fault anyway but it seems to me that single leg of the 220 would still be on a 15A breaker.Unless you have a monster irrigation pump, it's probably being fired by a 15A circuit if it's running at 220V. Unfortunately, unlike a dryer and stove which have a neutral running to them for various 110v accessories, your 220v irrigation pump probably doesn't.

Your best options are to buy a small 500w (or less) 220v baseboard heater with a built-in thermostat (they're cheap) or see if your local electrical/plumbing shop has 220v heat tape you can strap to the pipes (also cheap). Throw the same style 220v plug onto either of those, and you're set.

You could also convert the entire circuit into a 110v circuit at the panel, but that would involve opening the panel twice a year.

Have the pipes frozen up before?

Snow Dog
09-07-2008, 02:49 PM
My pool pump and well pump both use a 20A at 240V circuit. My electrical code book states that you can only go to 80% (12A for a 15A circuit) so 20A circuit breakers are common.

Without a neutral wire a GFI plug won't work. Shaggy's idea of using a 240V heater is a good way to go.


If the washer shorts out, it will blow a 30amp breaker. Any full short will blow any breaker (within reason - at some point the wire is so small it will catch fire, but 12 or 14 gauge wire should have no problem tripping a 30amp breaker). Yes, there will be more current just prior to the breaker trip, but only for a millisecond.

Not true. In my wall oven (40A) the oven light broke off it's base and shorted. The oven wiring just sucked it up (high temp insulation). There was enough resistance to keep the current below 40A. A normal stove has a bunch of fuses/breakers for all the little bits but this oven had no internal fuses or breakers.

In my corner of the world the AC voltage is 120/240.

L7
09-07-2008, 03:26 PM
Have the pipes frozen up before?

The 220 baseboard sounds a good way to go.

The pipes haven't frozen before BUT the previous technique was to throw garbage bags full of fiberglass insulation in there. In the spring we had to fish out the whole condensation soaked muddy mess out of there. It was dumb and painful. A heater wouldn't have to run much to keep it above freezing with some insulation. That way there could be functional access to it all winter if something else went wrong requiring a shut off of all the water.

rugbydave
09-07-2008, 03:27 PM
No. For a dryer both breakers in a double-breaker are 30A. A stove outlet is usually on a 40A double breaker.

In Canada there are 15A double-pole breakers in your panel but they're probably for the outlets on your kitchen counter, called a kitchen-split configuration and are designed to give you two 15A circuits at each outlet. They could also be for baseboard heaters.

There are exceptions to this, such as:

Unless you have a monster irrigation pump, it's probably being fired by a 15A circuit if it's running at 220V. Unfortunately, unlike a dryer and stove which have a neutral running to them for various 110v accessories, your 220v irrigation pump probably doesn't.

Your best options are to buy a small 500w (or less) 220v baseboard heater with a built-in thermostat (they're cheap) or see if your local electrical/plumbing shop has 220v heat tape you can strap to the pipes (also cheap). Throw the same style 220v plug onto either of those, and you're set.

You could also convert the entire circuit into a 110v circuit at the panel, but that would involve opening the panel twice a year.

Have the pipes frozen up before?

Shaggy, who'd you work for in town?

Shaggy
09-08-2008, 10:15 AM
Rugbydave, check yer PMs.

bmg97
09-08-2008, 05:42 PM
No.

It is more amperage than needed (which is never a problem for a device).

The problem you are thinking of is if you put a 30 amp load on a 12 guage wire, the wire can melt and cause a fire since the 30 amp breaker won't trip.
But you can always put a 20 amp load on a 8 gauge wire and 30 amp breaker with no probelms.

In theory if there is a short in the appliance, and you are expecting a 20amp breaker to trip, and it doesn't, resulting in a fire because the internal wires in the appliance are too small.
But, every appliance has small wires inside it, that are suited for the intended amperage draw of the appliance.

Ever plug a 2 watt device into a 20amp 110volt outlet? all the time.

ever wire a low wattage light fixture into a 15 amp circuit and notice that the 14 gauge house wiring was being connected to a 22 gauge thin strand of wire? all the time.
Its O.K.

the original design had a 110v plug on a 220v appliance. How did that work?
Perhaps there was a 20amp breaker in the appliance to protect the 110v plug, but I doubt it.

The more likely concern is that there isn't a neutral and a ground in the 220v box.
Only recently in the US did electric stoves change to 4 wire plugs. That is why I said have someone that knows what to look for take a look at it first.

Bottom line to answer your concern, it is not a fire hazard.

It may not be kosher by the electrical code, but that its not unsafe if done right.

Saw my mistake after you wrote that. Yep, way to much electric for a dryer. The only way to hook a higher voltage to a lower voltage would be if you had a resistor inline to drop the voltage. If there is no resistor then there will be a fire.

appliedcolors
01-25-2012, 01:02 PM
Custom adapters are available in the market. You can easily purchase it according to your old one.
Auto Carpet Extractor (http://appliedcolors.com/auto-carpet-extractor.html)

mntlion
02-07-2012, 12:11 PM
wow, can I use this on my delorean too?

tsproul
02-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Does the current 220 dryer plug have 3 or 4 brass prongs?

4 means you have 2 hots, neutral and ground.

3 means you have 2 hots and a ground.

You should really add a new receptacle box for the washer - most electric dryers are on a 30 amp circuit. When the dryer is set to high heat, it can pull close to 30 amps. If you are washing clothes at the same time and the washer is on the same circuit as the dryer, you can run into problems with the circuit breaker tripping.

If you are dead set on tapping the dryer circuit, then what you want to do is tap one of the hots (red or black wire - doesn't matter which but only one of these, not both) and the neutral and ground (4 prong) or just the ground (3 prong). Run these into a new receptacle box and wire the receptacle as appropriate.

mntlion
02-08-2012, 06:10 AM
thanks, but we solved this problem in 2008

jfost
02-08-2012, 08:30 AM
thanks, but we solved this problem in 2008

well? what did you end up doing?