Why Palin is scary...

[truth]

Not just pro-choice, but a member of Feminists For Life (http://www.feministsforlife.org/FAQ/index.htm). From the FFL website FAQ page:

Does Feminists for Life want to criminalize women for having abortions?
The early feminists enacted laws against abortion as consumer protection for women.

FFL has never advocated prosecuting women seeking abortion, although we believe that women are capable of following the law. Why doesn’t the law hold accountable those who threaten or coerce a woman into an abortion by withholding financial resources and emotional support? Abandonment is a powerful form of coercion.

We should criminalize anyone who withholds child support, fires a woman from her job because she is pregnant, refuses to accommodate her pregnancy, expels her from school, or threatens violence—-any act that forces her to choose between sacrificing her child and sacrificing her education, career plans, or safety from violence.

We believe that we should hold responsible those who profit from women’s pain—-especially the abortion industry.

Most important, we need to jump into hyperdrive to provide resources and solutions that will support women.


What is Feminists for Life's position on contraception?
Feminists for Life's mission is to address the unmet needs of women who are pregnant or parenting. Preconception issues including abstinence and contraception are outside of our mission. Some FFL members and supporters support the use of non-abortifacient contraception while others oppose contraception for a variety of reasons. FFL is concerned that certain forms of contraception have had adverse health effects on women.

Our membership enjoys a broad spectrum of opinion that reflects the diversity of opinions among the American public.

In the time of the early American feminists, sex between married couples was not always consensual. Many women bore 20 or more children, of whom only half survived. In order to affirm women’s rights within marriage, most feminist foremothers promoted “voluntary motherhood,” whereby women would have the education and right to fully participate in the decision to have sexual relations. FFL likewise supports life planning by focusing on one's education and career plans coupled with mentoring and empowering programs for teens.

Potential direct ties to the Pentacostal Dominionist (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=964) movement. The fact that this line can even remotely be drawn is pretty horrific. Pay attention to "Joel's Army" and the youth movement. (Read what the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=964) is saying about them.) She belongs to the congregation at the Juneau Christian Center (http://jccalaska.com) (which is an affiliate of the Assemblies of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assemblies_of_God)) and at which Mike Rose (http://www.pastornet.net.au/renewal/journal7/evans.html) is the Pastor.

Palin is a staunch advocate of Creationism (http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html) and the need for it top be taught in public schools. Need I really say more here?

She's admittedly completely ignorant to the job of the VP...
Pak-rH0dCeA

as well as the War in Iraq:

" Alaska Business Monthly: We've lost a lot of Alaska's military members to the war in Iraq. How do you feel about sending more troops into battle, as President Bush is suggesting?

Palin: I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq. I heard on the news about the new deployments, and while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place; I want assurances that we are doing all we can to keep our troops safe. Every life lost is such a tragedy. I am very, very proud of the troops we have in Alaska, those fighting overseas for our freedoms, and the families here who are making so many sacrifices."

Her comments in tv interviews are flippant and idiotic and a clear indication of the tiny bubble in which her political career (and life) has taken place. Her so called record of reform is quickly falling apart under scrutiny as the reality of her involvement in "the bridge to nowhere",

From the New York Times (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/defining-sarah-palin/)
Anchorage Daily News article in October 2006 when Ms. Palin was running for the gubernatorial seat:

5. Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?

Yes. I would like to see Alaska’s infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now–while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.

So she was very much for the bridge and insisted that Alaska had to act quickly—the party of Ted Stevens and Don Young might soon lose its majority, after all. By that point, though, the project was endangered for reasons that had nothing to do with Palin—the “Bridge to Nowhere” had become a national punchline, Congress had stripped away the offending earmark, moving the money back to the state’s general fund, and future federal support seemed unlikely. True, after Palin was sworn into office that fall, her first state budget didn’t allocate any money for the bridge. But when the Daily News asked on December 16, 2006, if she now opposed the project, Palin demurred and said she was simply trying to figure out where the bridge fit on the state’s list of transportation priorities, given the lack of support from Congress. Finally, on September 19, 2007, she decided to redirect funds away from the project altogether with this sorry-sounding statement:

“Ketchikan desires a better way to reach the airport, but the $398 million bridge is not the answer,” said Governor Palin. “Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it’s clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island,” Governor Palin added. “Much of the public’s attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here. But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened.”

and "big oil" battles come to light.


Top it off with not only support for drilling in ANWR but actually suing the Federal Govt. over the inclusion of Polar Bears on the endangered species list.
tKwZNwdowa4&feature

[Jer]

Agreed. McCain, Biden and O'Bama are equally scarey as well.

At least Palin is better looking than all those other guys.

[YetiMan]

scary scary scary scary scary

[spindrift]

Summary: Palin is inexperienced, relatively uneducated and stupid.

Her major credentials being discussed by the media include participating in high school sports, a beauty pageant, PTA membership and being a town mayor with fewer constituents than many university student body presidents have.

It is astonishing to see a ticket that is likely a step down from Bush/Cheney. And scary that the media and public are not universally busting a gut at just how grossly pathetic the duo of McCain/Palin is. Yikes!

[powder11]

queue up the msyoginists!

[Jer]

It is astonishing to see a ticket that is likely a step down from Bush/Cheney.

Now you're talking crazy talk. Unless Palin suddenly decides to start talking about doing something about the Jewish problem, there's nowhere to step down to.

[Jer]

Terrible choice...said that since the announcement.

You and your "I got an invite at the TGR show" little fucking choir can kiss my ass. What you think is girly or not is immaterial, since you obviously learned about inter-sexual relations in High School, then stopped listening. Hope you like the sound of all that slappin' meet agreeing with you, buddy.

What is really ironic, with how uber-inflated your self-esteem is regarding intelligence and "coolth," is that you think you're original, Jer... I mean Tmorry. What you fail to realize, Jer..I mean Tmorry, is that you're at best a Hugeairdog v5.0 or so. At least Witherspoon had the gall to be eloquent. I really shouldn't compare you with Brett, that's an insult to him.

No I'm not fucking kidding. Your a scab and I'm picking you.




Seriously tho - as far as the country is concerned, I agree she's a terrible choice. As far a McCain getting elected - brilliant choice.

[orange]

Hahahahahaahhahaha

[Rubicon]

You guys do realize that if there is ever going to be real change in Washington we are going to have to elect people who don't look like, sound like, have the same values/experiences/education as the people there now?

Reelecting all the same/same type people as those there now is just stirring the septic tank.

[spindrift]

queue up the msyoginists!

One need not be a misogynist to note that

a) She is grossly unqualified.
b) She is probably incapable of becoming qualified, ever.

See post #1. There is no reason to introduce gender as an issue. The issues are capability and competence. The evidence is that she has neither.

[irul&ublo]

Michael Palin would have been a better choice.

[orange]

See post #1. There is no reason to introduce gender as an issue.

She has a vag, so did Hill Dawg. That's why I'm voting McCain - Palin now.

[Jer]

One need not be a misogynist to note that

a) She is grossly unqualified.
b) She is probably incapable of becoming qualified, ever.

See post #1. There is no reason to introduce gender as an issue. The issues are capability and competence. The evidence is that she has neither.

Yet when people say the same thing about O'Bama, they're being racist.

McCain may have cancelled out his ability to use lack of experience against O'Bama by selecting Palin as his VP, but he added huge Ultra-Conservative appeal plus now he can play the lame gender card to O'Bama's lame race card.

[Jer]

Michael Palin would have been a better choice.

I'd prefer John Cleese. Especially if he dressed up in that Tim the Enchanter costume and blew a bunch of shit up.

[powder11]

One need not be a misogynist to note that

a) She is grossly unqualified.
b) She is probably incapable of becoming qualified, ever.

See post #1. There is no reason to introduce gender as an issue. The issues are capability and competence. The evidence is that she has neither.

was more poking fun at the reason the Hillaries think they lost

[hutash]

McCain made this a gender issue by choosing Palin. Had he chose a similarly useless male running mate, or a qualified woman, then I would agree gender was not an issue.

He chose her because she is a woman, and that makes it a gender issue.

[spindrift]

McCain made this a gender issue by choosing Palin. Had he chose a similarly useless male running mate, or a qualified woman, then I would agree gender was not an issue.

He chose her because she is a woman, and that makes it a gender issue.

There is no question she was cynically chosen in large measure because she is female. So shame on the Republican machine people for flying an unqualified person largely because of gender (and a few positions designed to appeal to "the core"). And shame on anyone drawn to vote for the ticket merely because it has a female VP candidate.

On the other hand, her gender has no bearing on whether or not she is qualified, in any dimension, for the job. And the answer to that is a simple "no" - regardless of gender.

[telebobski]

I could sure do without her pro-life stance, but I think it's a brilliant move for the GOP. Yes it removes the "experience card" from play, but it also neutralizes Obama's "change" card. What exactly has Obama changed during his short terms in the IL state senate and short term in US Senate? Palin has made some big changes in Alaska government in a short time. Yes, it's a small state population-wise, but I don't remember a lot of people worrying about that when Howard Dean was running for Prez in '04.

And for the record, neither Dems nor GOP do it for me..still thinking of voting the Blurred/Jer ticket

I can't wait for the debate(s)...

[powder11]

yeah but, Palin's husband is a 4 time snowmobile champion; the dude has skills:yourock: ;)
People can go on about her lack of exp or how she was only picked because she is a woman and its all true, but McLame pretty much just pulled off the election with his pick.
Republicans desperately needed the "I can relate" women's vote. Not the bitchy over 50 Hillaries, but the typical average American women who has a brood of kids whose husband drives a truck, shoots guns, kills small woodland creatures, fishes, gets drunk and messes around with his ATV.
Republicans pander to red necks like Democrats pander to women and minorities. It all boils down to demographics. There are more red neck voters in America. McLame wins by a narrow margin.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's politics in America.

[hitek79]

She has more experience running a government than the 3 combined. She's a great choice for McCain.

[truth]

She has more experience running a government than the 3 combined. She's a great choice for McCain.


She got 115,000 votes to win the Alaskan Governor gig. There were over 80,000 people at the last night of the DNC. Not really apples to apples there.

[Rubicon]

a) She is grossly unqualified.
b) She is probably incapable of becoming qualified, ever.



The constitution sets the qualifications for that office. By that measure she is qualified.





But I don't want my "changes" to come in the form of Creationism and criminalizing abortion.


Me neither, but Presidents and VPs do not make laws, congress does.

[hitek79]

She got 115,000 votes to win the Alaskan Governor gig. There were over 80,000 people at the last night of the DNC. Not really apples to apples there.

And? She has more experience running a government than Mccain, Obama, and Biden, combined.

[hitek79]

Me neither, but Presidents and VPs do not make laws, congress does.

Not entirely true. POTUS appoints supreme court justices. They can overturn laws.

[steved]

Where the hell is Bernie **Whats-his-face** when ya' need him!..@VP debate...to ask...what she'd do if her husband was ever raped....

The paranoid Conservatives are something to listen to....

[truth]

And? She has more experience running a government than Mccain, Obama, and Biden, combined.

Running a town of 6000 or 20 months at the helm of the 683,478 men, women and children of Alaska is hardly qualification for the VP.

[Rubicon]

Running a town of 6000 or 20 months at the helm of the 683,478 men, women and children of Alaska is hardly qualification for the VP.

You are right because the qualifications for the VP are set by the constitution and it has nothing to do with experience or education.

[orange]

Rubicon -- condescendingly pretending to be a Poli-Sci 101 teacher...

[hitek79]

Running a town of 6000 or 20 months at the helm of the 683,478 men, women and children of Alaska is hardly qualification for the VP.

And???????? 143 day of the Legislative branch is????? Obama or Biden have zero Executive branch experience.

[truth]

And???????? 143 day of the Legislative branch is????? Obama or Biden have zero Executive branch experience.


Neither does McCain, so to me that playing field is level. By your argument Palin would be the best President out of the bunch and that's just retarded.

[powder11]

Running a town of 6000 or 20 months at the helm of the 683,478 men, women and children of Alaska is hardly qualification for the VP.

Quite true, but Palin will attract a large segment of the voting demographic that may have voted for Obama; the average women. The more the democrats keep hammering Palin's qualifications, the more that demographic will become endeared to her. Its political genius is what it is. Right out the Bill Clinton handbook chapter on "folksy" candidates win votes. The educated minority scoff at Palin, but the masses will vote for her and that is why she should scare you.

[hitek79]

Neither does McCain, so to me that playing field is level. By your argument Palin would be the best President out of the bunch and that's just retarded.

What makes Obama more qualified?

[Rubicon]

Rubicon -- condescendingly pretending to be a Poli-Sci 101 teacher...


You and others can sit around and talk past each other if you want to. But
the debate is worthless unless we are all using the same lexicon.

[orange]

You and others can sit around and talk past each other if you want to. But
the debate is worthless unless we are all using the same lexicon.

Interwebz message board + political talk = talking past people.

Regardless, I know what the Constitutional qualifications are for VP, but I also know what someone means when they say they don't think she is qualified to be VP. Use your brain and act like you take everything at face value...

[truth]

Quite true, but Palin will attract a large segment of the voting demographic that may have voted for Obama; the average women... The educated minority scoff at Palin, but the masses will vote for her and that is why she should scare you.

No way. The average Hillary supporter was Pro-Choice and Anti-Gun. Palin loses on both counts. What's scary is that the RNC is so desperate they resort to a knee jerk choice. This race isn't even going to be close.

hitek- Education and dealing with issues on a national and international level trump anything Palin could bring to the table. In fact, if you look at her tenure in Wasilla it's nothing but a string of bad financial mistakes that have left the town with massive debt. How can a VP candidate have no knowledge of the Iraq war by her own admission? That's insanity and utter incompetence.

[hitek79]

His dealing with issues is nothing but saying Yes, or No. That's it. And most of the votes, he's missed. She has run a government from top to bottom.

[mrw]

I would elect 100 Palins before I would elect one Barack Hussien Obama

[timvwcom]

I would fuck 100 Palins before I would fuck one Barack Hussien Obama

Fixed it for you...

(Now I've gotta go back and finish a discussion with Rubi somewhere?)

[orange]

Oh shit the middle-name-drop. :fmicon:

[mrw]

Fixed it for you...

(Now I've gotta go back and finish a discussion with Rubi somewhere?)

well yeah, that too

[Rasputin]

You guys do realize that if there is ever going to be real change in Washington we are going to have to elect people who don't look like, sound like, have the same values/experiences/education as the people there now?



She wants to drill ANWR just like Bush and Cheney do, sounds like the same values to me, just a differently packaged shill for big oil.

The Pentacostal thing is even more troubling, Pentacostalism is like Christianity's version of the Moonies. Very aggressive in recruiting. I wonder if she "speaks in tongues".

[hitek79]

She actually took on big oil in Alaska, and because of that, their budget has a surplus.

[Rasputin]

She actually took on big oil in Alaska, and because of that, their budget has a surplus.

Yes she did seek a greater cut of profits for the State of AK, but is unreservedly pro drilling, as much and as soon as possible. Smells like a neocon to me.

[truth]

Yes she did seek a greater cut of profits for the State of AK, but is unreservedly pro drilling, as much and as soon as possible. Smells like a neocon to me.

Exactly. She took them for a piece of the pie, not to reign in their greed. Of course she wants to drill ANWR, she gets a piece of that action too. Same as Bush / Cheney / Rumi in Iraq.

What keeps making me smile is that it seems that the only point the Reps can make is based on the perception of Palin's experience edge. As if that somehow negates the fucked politics and values she stands for.

[ak_powder_monkey]

if you've ever been to wassilla you know why palin is scary

[Cliff Huckable]

You are right because the qualifications for the VP are set by the constitution and it has nothing to do with experience or education.

Aren't you going to be surprised when you get to the part in the book that describes how the VP can inherit another, even more powerful, job!

[rideit]

Apparently not a photochop mock-up:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/images/2008/08/30/sarahpalinvogue.jpg

[pointedem]

this is hilarious. Do you think people were voting for Hilary only because she was a woman? I'd be willing to bet that being a Clinton and a NY senator had a lot more to do with it; for McCain to think he is going to capture the female vote by throwing in another woman... laughable. Besides- Hilary is already backing Obama; the female voters aren't looking for just any female candidate to back-

As truth pointed out- look at her background. This doesn't make me scared, it makes me fucking stoked. The Republican party just blasted their foot off.

[Trackhead]

for McCain to think he is going to capture the female vote by throwing in another woman... laughable. .

Laughable, but sadly true. A large sum of American's like to vote for who speaks well despite what their mouth is saying, or who is charasmatic, despite what lies beyond the charisma. Or sadly, how someone looks or presents themselves.

We're a nation of idiots, fake tits, bankruptcy, and Hummers. Might as well face it.

[AstroPax]

A large sum of American's like to vote for who speaks well despite what their mouth is saying, or who is charasmatic, despite what lies beyond the charisma.

As in Barack Obama, for example.

Allow me to translate:


A large sum of American's will vote for Obama because he speaks well despite what his mouth is saying, or because he is charismatic, despite the lies behind the charisma.

[AstroPax]

Regardless, I know what the Constitutional qualifications are for VP, but I also know what someone means when they say they don't think she is qualified to be VP.

At his point, I would rather get stuck with an unqualified republican vice president than I would an unqualified democratic president.

[cdlv]

she has been to 4 states in her life, Ak, ID , yesterday was her first time in Ohio and today her first time in PA. She just got her US Passport in the last 3 months, that is some great life experience.

[rideit]

she has been to 4 states in her life, Ak, ID , yesterday was her first time in Ohio and today her first time in PA. She just got her US Passport in the last 3 months, that is some great life experience.
Holy shit, that's pathetic.
But very, very 'merican.
Lots of folks will relate...which is even more pathetic.
That would be fine for a Governor....but a VP?
Of the most powerful nation in the world?
Jeesus H Christ on a popsicle.

[AstroPax]

Obama:


He went on to earn his law degree from Harvard in 1991, where he became the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. Soon after, he returned to Chicago to practice as a civil rights lawyer and teach constitutional law.

Biden:


He graduated from the University of Delaware in 1965, and from the Syracuse University College of Law in 1968. Prior to his election to the Senate, Biden practiced law in Wilmington, Delaware and served on the New Castle County Council from 1970 to 1972. Since 1991, Biden has been an adjunct professor at the Widener University School of Law, where he teaches a seminar on constitutional law.

Yeah, that's all we need, two fucking LAWYERS at the helm.

[rideit]

Yeah, a marginal model/PTA lady is definitely more capable of nuanced thought and action.
Especially regarding, say, sticky issues involving the Judicial branch, or, why not, constitutional law.

[pointedem]

Dude. Obama is talking about JFK/MLK esque change in the US. We ain't nickle and diming shit here; only time will tell if he will back up his words with actions; but for anyone to turn their back on what he has to offer is beyond my comprehension. If, for some very cruel twist of fate, McCain wins.... I'll... I'll...

shit. I don't know what I'll do.

[montanaskier]

As in Barack Obama, for example.

Allow me to translate:



because McSame doesn't lie at all:rolleyes2

[The Dad]

Now you're talking crazy talk. Unless Palin suddenly decides to start talking about doing something about the Jewish problem, there's nowhere to step down to.
Quoted for the shock of agreeing with Jer.



Apparently not a photochop mock-up:
Yeah.....

No.

[Adolf Allerbush]

Obama:



Biden:



Yeah, that's all we need, two fucking LAWYERS at the helm.

Totally BRO!!! Lawyers are evil right?

I'd much rather have an old decrepit geezer who calls his wife a cunt and has an insane temper paired with a dumb fuck born again Christian psychobitch governor.

Seriously, all you fucking idiots that are pulling for the McSame/Psychobitch ticket are dellusional. Do you see what's been going on in this country the last 8 years? Not much of anything good...you can blame that on the GOP douchebags in power...don't perpetuate the stupidity....if you're truly conservative at least vote libertarian istead of these two dumbfucks.

[Trackhead]

but for anyone to turn their back on what he has to offer is beyond my comprehension.

In your point of view, please list the top 5 here.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

[JoeStrummer]

she has been to 4 states in her life, Ak, ID , yesterday was her first time in Ohio and today her first time in PA. She just got her US Passport in the last 3 months, that is some great life experience.

Who cares? Our current President had only been to Carlos n Charlie's in Cancun before assuming office and look how well he. . . . never mind.

Shifting to self-promotion, here is my blog from the DNC. . . .

http://www.bullfightsandbicycles.com

[AstroPax]

Do you see what's been going on in this country the last 8 years? Not much of anything good...you can blame that on the GOP douchebags in power

I blame it mostly on the assholes that have been sitting in congress for the past X number of years.

Dumbfucks like you that blame EVERYTHING on the presidential administration, regardless of who it is at the time, don't have a clue.

[Adolf Allerbush]

I blame it mostly on the assholes that have been sitting in congress for the past X number of years.

Dumbfucks like you that blame EVERYTHING on the presidential administration, regardless of who it is at the time, don't have a clue.

Hey, dumbfuck, I didn't blame everything on the president...the republican congress of much of the last 8 years is to blame as well.

[truth]

Yeah, that's all we need, two fucking LAWYERS at the helm.

Do yourself a favor and research how many of the past presidents/vp's/senators/congressmen are not lawyers.


I blame it mostly on the assholes that have been sitting in congress for the past X number of years.

Dumbfucks like you that blame EVERYTHING on the presidential administration, regardless of who it is at the time, don't have a clue.

All of which are elected officials. So in reality you're blaming yourself, dumbfuck.

[JoeStrummer]

The Democratic Congress hasn't done anything for nearly 2 years. Obama was going to have FISA and wiretapping hearings until Qwest announced their sponsorship of the DNC, then those plans were scrapped. I find myself more in agreement with the Republican philosophy if not their policies, they just give you the finger and run over the Dems while the Dems wet themselves and blog about it.

I am so far left I make Obama look like Adolph Eichmann but he doesn't speak to me at all. We need to move beyond this "red tie, blue tie" horseshit if anything is ever going to get done in America.

Edited to avoid thread drift: I wouldn't vote for McCain if you gave me lifetime free Dynafits and put my nuts in a vise but I give the choice of Palin a bizarre thumbs-up - no Harvard Law Review Wall Street Corporate Law career path there!

[Rubicon]

Dude. Obama is talking about JFK/MLK esque change in the US.

O'rly?

"In 1962, John F. Kennedy said, "It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low, and the soundest way to raise revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now … The purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus."

Barack Obama, by contrast, seems to have proposed tax-rate increases for just about every federal tax. He proposes to increase the top two individual tax rates. He would increase the capital gains tax rate by 33%. Ditto that for the tax rate on dividends. He has proposed Social Security payroll tax increases of 16% to 32% for families making over $250,000 a year (that would have a minor effect on the long-term Social Security deficit while arbitrarily punishing these families with effective negative real rates of return from Social Security). Mr. Obama's health plan would also impose a new payroll tax on employers. He would reinstitute the "death tax" (estate tax) with a top rate of 45%. He has also proposed several increases in corporate taxes, including a "windfall profits" tax on oil."


http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/08/29/mccain-obama-taxes-oped-cx_pf_0829ferrara.html

[AstroPax]

Obama is talking about JFK/MLK esque change in the US.

The sixties all over again??? Wow, this should be a fun ride. I can't wait!

[rideit]

OT, Rube, but how, exactly, are we going to pay for the 'wars'?
Or Social Security, the failing US infrastructure, etc?
How does lowering taxes increase tax revenue?
(outside of 'trickle down' theories, which have certainly not proven to have worked)
Serious Q.
I am wary of what is being presented as Barack's 'plan', but hey, ask for the moon, and be happy with a view of it, I guess.

[rideit]

The sixties all over again??? Wow, this should be a fun ride. I can't wait!
Well, the problems that we face now make the problems of the sixties look cartoon-ish...(Not that there weren't some serious problems)

[truth]

click here (http://stupidcelebrities.net/2008/08/30/bristol-palin-pregnancy-is-vp-sarah-palins-5th-child-really-her-daughters-photos/)

[pointedem]

O'rly?

"In 1962, John F. Kennedy said, "It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low, and the soundest way to raise revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now … The purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus."

Barack Obama, by contrast, seems to have proposed tax-rate increases for just about every federal tax. He proposes to increase the top two individual tax rates. He would increase the capital gains tax rate by 33%. Ditto that for the tax rate on dividends. He has proposed Social Security payroll tax increases of 16% to 32% for families making over $250,000 a year (that would have a minor effect on the long-term Social Security deficit while arbitrarily punishing these families with effective negative real rates of return from Social Security). Mr. Obama's health plan would also impose a new payroll tax on employers. He would reinstitute the "death tax" (estate tax) with a top rate of 45%. He has also proposed several increases in corporate taxes, including a "windfall profits" tax on oil."


http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/08/29/mccain-obama-taxes-oped-cx_pf_0829ferrara.html

A) Not referring to specific policy.
B) We are fucked right now. Without researching, ahem, stuff.. debt as a % of GDP/ ect, it doesn't take a genius to see that the USA is about as fucked as we have ever been. Look around.
C) He is representing moving forward, the future of forward thinking America. New ideas, policies, thoughts. For people to doubt what he promises is unbelievable... especially insane considering the hand we are currently dealt due to the leadership of the past 8 years. To further embrace the thinking that got us in the position we are in today is mind-blowing. The key word here is CHANGE.

[haydukelives]

karl marx is actually quite backwards.

[Trackhead]

Dude. Obama is talking about JFK/MLK esque change in the US. .


Ironically, today it is the Republican John McCain who is proposing the tax policies of President Kennedy, which led to the economic boom of the 1960s, rather than the Democratic nominee, Barack Obama. Indeed, what Mr. Obama is proposing is the opposite of Kennedy's tax policies.

Yeah brah.;)

[Rubicon]

OT, Rube, but how, exactly, are we going to pay for the 'wars'?
Or Social Security, the failing US infrastructure, etc?
How does lowering taxes increase tax revenue?
(outside of 'trickle down' theories, which have certainly not proven to have worked)
Serious Q.
I am wary of what is being presented as Barack's 'plan', but hey, ask for the moon, and be happy with a view of it, I guess.


I don't know how we are going to pay for everything. We have over committed ourselves on several fronts IMO. Obama wants to do more of the same. I think it is really sad that we have gotten to the place where one of the most pressing questions we face today is "how is the government going to pay for everything". This country doesn't exist to support a government. Yet that is the mentality we have adopted because we have been thinking of the government as the solution to our problems rather than a necessary evil that should be kept as small as possible. McCain's stated intent at least is to shrink government and cut taxes. He has proven himself to be enough of a pissy little firebrand that I believe he just might do it, not caring who he has to piss off in the process.

No one is going to be able to prove that lower taxes will lead to increased revenue. But we are not the only show on the block anymore and higher taxes will lead to more corporations heading overseas to more favorable tax environments and that is absolutely not going to grow the economy. So while McCain's plan may not be a proven path to success, Obama's plan is taking us in the direction that got us in this mess in the first place.

[Powow]

The top tax rate while JFK came into office was NINETY-ONE PERCENT.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the same arguments apply now?

By the way, the tax rate was appropriately raised that high due to spending. Just like it should be raised now due to spending. When the tax rate went down, it was because spending went down. Not because people thought it would raise tax revenue.

[bite me]

Palin's the smartest thing the Repubs have done politically.

A non-lawyer (note to lawyers - non lawyers think the "profession" sucks donkey balls in case that comes as news), and Obama's campaign shill comment that she doesn't have any experience suddenly came back to bite him - Neither does BHO, that's why they had to back off quick - funny shit.

Brought the message home in a heartbeat - she may not have any experience, but she's the VP candidate, not the Presidential candidate.

Will women vote for her just because she's a woman - for some in a heartbeat - I can already see my ex backtracking to try to fit her into a suitable candidate.

Exactly what is that that BHO have in his repertoire that's so excellent anyway?

And, oh yeah, let's hear about all the great things we've seen from the Democrapic Congress of the past couple of years - just one notable thing, would be fine.

[powder11]

No way. The average Hillary supporter was Pro-Choice and Anti-Gun. Palin loses on both counts. What's scary is that the RNC is so desperate they resort to a knee jerk choice. This race isn't even going to be close.

I never said the over 50 Hillaries would vote for her, in fact, I bet almost none of them do. I'm talking about the average women out there. The married women with kids who live in middle America that may have otherwise voted for Obama and now have someone they can relate to. I'll wager this one is so close its not even funny and people like you won't even see it coming or believe it when it happens.

[YetiMan]

this is a little bit reminiscent of harriet meiers

[rsknight1]

Seems like a pretty good pick for McCain so far... time will tell.

What makes one "qualified"??? I think judgment & will trumps experience. Its not like either Obama or Palin would be making decisions in a vacuum.

[doughboyshredder]

Quite true, but Palin will attract a large segment of the voting demographic that may have voted for Obama; the average women. The more the democrats keep hammering Palin's qualifications, the more that demographic will become endeared to her. Its political genius is what it is. Right out the Bill Clinton handbook chapter on "folksy" candidates win votes. The educated minority scoff at Palin, but the masses will vote for her and that is why she should scare you.


The average woman is not that stupid.

She is completely 100% not somebody that I could accept being in the White House.

She is a fucking wackjob.

Between Obama picking Biden and McCain picking this psycho, I have decided that I will be voting for Obama.

I hope that other independents realize the necessity of voting against McCain.

Even Montana may be in play. Ashean, could you two really forgive yourselves if you contributed to McCain winning MT by a small margin?

We absolutely cannot have a creationist whacko in office, considering that multiple supreme court justices will be retiring in the next 4 - 8 years.

[doughboyshredder]

McCain's stated intent at least is to shrink government and cut taxes..

I thought you were smarter than this.

The republicans have been using that same line for the last twenty years, while they have increased the size of government and cut taxes for the ultra wealthy, while taxing the poor and middle class through inflation.

McCain will NOT be any different.

[Tippster]

Exactly what is that that BHO have in his repertoire that's so excellent anyway?
Intelligence, capacity for critical thought, vision, and charisma.

Stop being afraid of people smarter than you. Dumbing down the Presidency for the last 8 years has not helped.

Obama has pledged to cut taxes for 95% of taxpayers. McCain for the rest.

[hutash]

We absolutely cannot have a creationist whacko in office, considering that multiple supreme court justices will be retiring in the next 4 - 8 years.

Quoted for emphasis. This really has me worried. She will not be good for women in the long run.

[Rubicon]

I thought you were smarter than this.

If Obama does what he says he is going to do, we're screwed(increasing corporate taxes across the board may help the federal balance sheet in the short term but by no stretch of the imagination does taxing corporations more help the economy for the rest of us). If he takes more than he says he will, we're doubly screwed.

If McCain does what he says he will do than we are taxed less. If he raises taxes, we're screwed. So if McCain screws us we are where we would be if Obama keeps his word. Do you really expect Obama to keep his word?


The republicans have been using that same line for the last twenty years, while they have increased the size of government and cut taxes for the ultra wealthy, while taxing the poor and middle class through inflation.

McCain will NOT be any different.

He already is.

"Two years later, on the day before the U.S. invaded Iraq, McCain declared on the Senate floor that he could not vote for a second package of tax cuts worth $350 billion, most of which went to wealthy investors.

McCain remained the stubborn holdout. That same year, he told NBC's Meet the Press that he voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthiest Americans."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91544414


In the day to day workings of the government McCain went against his party and his president, over a popular measure, as a matter of conscience without the prospect of personal gain from his actions. Show me where Obama has had the courage to do that.

[YetiMan]

In the day to day workings of the government McCain went his party and his president, over a popular measure, as a matter of conscience without the prospect of personal gain from his actions. Show me where Obama has had the courage to do that.

he's a maverick because he does the right thing for the public in spite of his party membership, obama isn't a maverick because his party was generally trying to do the right thing for the public all along. To me it seems absurd to criticize obama for that.

[rideit]

So, Rube, isn't supporting a candidate that supports a creationist whack job (might as well be a 'flat-earth'-er!) just kicking your own self in the ass, really?

[P_McPoser]

I can't help but notice all the voices that say "Americans aren't that dumb" live on the coasts. Ever visit middle america? Remember the 2000 and 2004 elections, by chance?

[YetiMan]

yeah dude, she will totally start talking about abortion and school prayer and shit and she'll have rural midwest/south sewn up. so lame but so real.

[Rubicon]

he's a maverick because he does the right thing for the public in spite of his party membership, obama isn't a maverick because his party was generally trying to do the right thing for the public all along. To me it seems absurd to criticize obama for that.

Doughboy was lumping McCain in with all the other Republicans. I was drawing a contrast for him.

I disagree that the Dems try to do the right thing for the people. I don't think either major party has the people's best interest at heart. Some individuals within those parties? Sure. But not the party machines as a whole. So someone demonstrating the willingness to buck their party(repeatedly) on principle impresses me. Obama is yet to demonstrate that he is able or willing to do that. So in that way he has failed to distinguish himself from the herd. That's not a criticism of Obama as much as it is a contrast to McCain.

[P_McPoser]

A lot of the conservative base hates mccain, and scoffed at this election. Sarah Palin brings these people back to the table. And you can deny it all you want, but she brings a lot of 'she's a woman, like me!" voters to the table. The average American woman is slaving away keeping the home fires burning and taking care of domestic business while daddy's at work. Palin could be an idol to these women, someone to look up to. Yes, there are millions of people this stupid in this country.

[YetiMan]

oh yeah, tens of millions

[Tippster]

Oh, this might get fun... http://www.mediatakeout.com/2008/26264-stunning_rumor_mccains_vp_choice_may_have_hid_daug hters_pregnancy__claimed_the_baby_as_her_own_.html

August 30, 2008. The presidential campaign has just turned into a soap opera. MediaTakeOut.com is hearing rumors that John McCain’s VP pick, Sarah Palin , may have a scandal in her past. Word is coming from MTO readers in Alaska (yeah, we got readers in Alaska) and from a bunch of left-wing bloggers that McCain’s VP may have hid her daughter’s pregnancy. And that the child which she claims is hers, might actually be her daughter’s.

Here’s a report (excerpted from the popular blog The Moderate Vpoice):

[Governor Palin’s] oldest girl is rumored to have actually been the one who had the last baby, the one with Down’s Syndrome. She was taken out of school the last 4 or 5 months of her mother’s pregnancy.

On March 5th, 2008 Alaska’s Republican Governor, Sarah Palin, announced to the media that she was 7 months pregnant with her 5th child. She is currently 44.

Palin’s daughter Bristol is 16 and attends an Anchorage high school. Students who have attended class with her report that she has been out of school for months, claiming a prolonged case of mono.

Palin does not appear pregnant in any recent photographs. The announcement came as quite a shock to people who had worked closely with her, and have been quoted as saying that she did not appear pregnant whatsoever during the prior 7 months.

And there’s more – check out the photo above taken with Palin’s daughter having a bulge in her stomach. And the below pic shows the governor when she was supposedly 6 months pregnant.

And even more. Since these rumors have begun circulating, the Alaska Department of State has taken down ALL PHOTOS of the governor and her family from the state’s website.

Now y’all know that we’re not knocking the lady for trying to protect her daughter. But if you have that kind of scandal in your recent past, you really have no business running for vice president. If that’s what she wanted to do, she could have done like Janet and Rebe and just stayed out of the limelight for a minute…..

Anyway, even though the mainstream press is too chicken to report on this, MediaTakeOut.com has learned that The National Enquirer is all over this one. Expect the scandal to get bigger (if it is true) in coming weeks…I know that this is highly likely to be absolute BS, but the mudslinging has begun....

[P_McPoser]

oh yeah, tens of millions

bazillions
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/statemapredbluelarge.png

See all those red states, guys? You probably don't ever go there. That's why you think the repubes have no chance.

[rideit]

So, if Palin 'accidentally' ends up as our Prez, what movie is this scenario most like?
'Being There', or 'Dave'?





(Aside: 'being There' is absolutely telling...)

[rideit]

AND, as we learn more about her:

Indications that Palin is a petty, vindictive cunt:

"Palin: an odd history of unnecessary vindictiveness and lying

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there was ANOTHER firing ... when mayor


Quote:
The Palin Troopergate scandal as governor - which at its core is about her use of her public office to pursue a private vendetta by firing a public safety commissioner - is not the only time Sarah Palin fired a public employee for reasons apparently unrelated to job performance. Hat Thief has the details. From the Anchorage Daily News December 1997:


Quote:
A recall of Mayor Sarah Palin is off the table, at least for now, according to a group calling itself Concerned Citizens for Wasilla. The group of about 60 residents was formed Friday in response to Palin's controversial firing of Police Chief Irl Stambaugh. Members say they're concerned about the direction taken by Palin since her election last fall, and discussed a recall.

What happened?


Quote:
Wasilla Mayor Sarah Palin fired the city's police chief and the library director without warning Thursday, accusing them of not fully supporting her efforts to govern. Irl Stambaugh and Mary Ellen Emmons said letters signed by Palin were dropped on their desks Thursday afternoon telling them their jobs were over as of Feb. 13 and that they no longer needed to report to work.

Not fully supporting her efforts to govern? Hmmm. From the ADN


Quote:
Emmons has been the city's library director for seven years. Stambaugh has headed the police department since it was created in 1993. Before that, he served 22 years with the Anchorage Police Department rising to the rank of captain before retiring. While both struggled with Palin when she was first elected in October, they said the letters caught them off guard. Both had publicly supported Palin's opponent, long-time mayor John Stein, during the campaign last fall. When she was elected, Palin questioned their loyalty and even initially asked for their resignations. But both said Thursday that they thought things had been worked out. ''After the initial roller coaster, we were ready to work for Mayor Palin,'' Emmons said. ''Unfortunately I think we were both fired for politics.''

Palin, when asked by a reporter about the firings, first denied that they had happened. When the reporter went back to the police chief:


Quote:
Stambaugh's response was to read part of the letter given to him. ''Although I appreciate your service as police chief, I've decided it's time for a change. I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment. . . . '' ''If that's not a letter of termination, I don't know what is,'' he said.

So Palin lied, as she did, by her own admission, in the later firing of police chief Monegan. Stambaugh eventually sued for wrongful dismissal. Palin won - because the judge ruled that a mayor can legally fire a police chief for any reason she wants, political payback or otherwise:




Quote:
Singleton said that under state law, police chiefs serve at the behest of the mayor unless otherwise specified by city ordinance. Stein, the former mayor, had worked out an agreement with Stambaugh forbidding termination without cause, but the city council never voted on it, Singleton ruled.

I'm curious: did McCain know about all this? Who vetted her? "

From that Conservative; Sullivan
__________________
“It’s like these guys take pride in being ignorant.” ~Barack

[Rubicon]

So, Rube, is supporting a candidate that supports a creationist whack job (might as well be a 'flat-earth'-er!) not kicking your own self in the ass, really?

No, because I am not afraid of religion or people who subscribe to it. I feel the same way about activist religion as I do about activist government. It's something that bears close scrutiny and vigilance to make sure it stays within it's bounds and doesn't impose itself on others. But as long as proper boundaries are respected, there is no reason we can't coexist peacefully with it.

Would I prefer someone who didn't believe in superstitions like creationism? Hell yeah. But on average the checks and balances in Washington do a good job of keeping everybody in line. So it's something of a minor issue.

Tolerance: So many people throw that word around, so few actually practice it.

[rideit]

No, because I am not afraid of religion or people who subscribe to it. .

Well, you ARE from CaliTexas!!!:FIREdevil:FIREdevil:FIREdevil:FIREdev il

[JoeStrummer]

I still can't absorb the fact we might be going from a guy (Cheney) who ran Halliburton and was part of national governance for 40 years to a person who might be in hot water for unfairly firing the library director of a town 1/10 the size of Greeley Colorado! I mean, WTF? Not that she could do any worse but since when did we start picking our VPs from "America's Got Talent."

I'll bet they both ski in jeans, though!

[Trackhead]

Oh, this might get fun... http://www.mediatakeout.com/2008/26264-stunning_rumor_mccains_vp_choice_may_have_hid_daug hters_pregnancy__claimed_the_baby_as_her_own_.html
I know that this is highly likely to be absolute BS, but the mudslinging has begun....

Yup, the librodouches whine when the billionaire Neocon had the ad playing linking the almighty man of change to an ex-terrorist. And now the libs have dug up some dirt of their own.

Goes both ways. Always has, always will. Nobody is immune.

[Powow]

Yup, the librodouches whine when the billionaire Neocon had the ad playing linking the almighty man of change to an ex-terrorist. And now the libs have dug up some dirt of their own.

Goes both ways. Always has, always will. Nobody is immune.
When Obama runs an ad on TV about Palin's baby, you might have a point.

[Trackhead]

When Obama runs an ad on TV about Palin's baby, you might have a point.

The ad run on TV was funded by Harold Simmons.

[Rubicon]

Well, you ARE from CaliTexas!!!:FIREdevil:FIREdevil:FIREdevil:FIREdev il:


:fuckyou:


...and P_McPoser is right. There are millions of people in middle America and the South who will vote for someone for no other reasons than the one he mentioned and a dozen other equally vacuous reasons. More than enough to swing an election if they vote and more than enough to swing it the other way if they stay home. Palin will appeal to them big time.

[P_McPoser]

Even here in Colorado, in Summit, I overheard the following on Weds at the Dr.s

redneck1: "That Obama, you know his middle name is Hussein"
2: "really?"
1: "Yeah, he one of them muslims, and he's racist too, hates the whites, like farrakan"
2: "Yeah, i'm def voting for McCain"

May i die now if I'm making it up.

[JoeStrummer]

Even here in Colorado, in Summit, I overheard the following on Weds at the Dr.s

redneck1: "That Obama, you know his middle name is Hussein"
2: "really?"
1: "Yeah, he one of them muslims, and he's racist too, hates the whites, like farrakan"
2: "Yeah, i'm def voting for McCain"

May i die now if I'm making it up.

Oh, I am quite sure you aren't making it up. I overheard something equally ridiculous 3 years ago while driving to Cody, post-Katrina. I have it word for word because it was the dumbest goddamn thing I've ever heard in my life (and I was raised in Nebraska!)

Customer: Did you see the Mexicans are sending soldiers to New Orleans?
Gas Station Clerk: Yeah, I can't believe it.
Customer: I can't either, they say they're coming to help but they're gonna use that as an excuse to invade us!
Gas Station Clerk: I know, I know (totally serious)
Customer: And we'll be totally defenseless when they attack! (pausing) Let me get three scratch and wins and a pack of American Spirits!

[gonehuckin]

I know there is a lot at stake in this election.

History tells us (and recent history) that the consequences of "elections" around the world can have effects that change the entire scope of reality.

I also know that the executive branch has never been stronger.

I even know who I'll vote for.

But what I'm not sure of is whether this election even matters.

We have become a world of so much information and misinformation that it all seems like complete bullshit.

Once a study comes out to say one thing, a study is released the next day that says the opposite. Atkins is good but yeah it causes heart attacks. Just a decade ago, long and skinny but then fat skis are all the rage and now we have reverse/reverse. Fake boobs are wonderful but oh silicon kills.

A huge portion is nothing more than effective marketing (Obamas speech at the DNC) and some of it is brilliant and effective (Obama's speech at the DNC).

What I do know, is that this is one big mess. McCain is different when you meet him in person. He's as charismatic as they come. Obama is the same.
They both made very game changing and unexpected picks for VP. They're both smart as hell. And they both are playing for keeps.

As far as McCain's pick for veep, I think it was dumb politically but it certainly has a disarming effect on the attacks that could come. However, the attacks from Obama wont be personal. They will be based on policy differences. Whether the US absorbs and responds to that level of discourse (which McCain is capable of, even if he chooses another path), will remain to be seen.

[truth]

people like you

That's genius.



Oh, this might get fun... http://www.mediatakeout.com/2008/26264-stunning_rumor_mccains_vp_choice_may_have_hid_daug hters_pregnancy__claimed_the_baby_as_her_own_.html
I know that this is highly likely to be absolute BS, but the mudslinging has begun....

http://yourfreepress.blogspot.com/2008/08/alleged-coverup-buzz.html


Even here in Colorado, in Summit, I overheard the following on Weds at the Dr.s

redneck1: "That Obama, you know his middle name is Hussein"
2: "really?"
1: "Yeah, he one of them muslims, and he's racist too, hates the whites, like farrakan"
2: "Yeah, i'm def voting for McCain"

May i die now if I'm making it up.

Sad, but the humorous flipside to that coin might be the reaction here in Zion. Having slighted Romney and taken on a Pentacostal Dominionist it may very well cause chaos with the LDS vote. That'd be funny.


I still can't get over how much of this thread has been consumed with tax talk. Given the larger issues in play worrying about your small tax adjustment in either direction is idiotic. Back the truck up just a tad and examine for a moment where the economy and the federal deficit might be had we avoided this war thing in Iraq? Consider the actual $ amount spent and add it to the effect the effort has had on oil prices and it's mind blowing just how FUBAR the past 8 years have been. On 9/11 we stood on the precipice of greatness, having the empathy of the world at our backs and the chance to rise above the "evil doers". Instead, we've handed them a victory of a magnitude they could never have dreamed of. To me this election only offers one way out of the quagmire and it's not on the back of another war mongering republican and his ignorant barbie doll.

[gonehuckin]

Oh, I am quite sure you aren't making it up. I overheard something equally ridiculous 3 years ago while driving to Cody, post-Katrina. I have it word for word because it was the dumbest goddamn thing I've ever heard in my life (and I was raised in Nebraska!)

Customer: Did you see the Mexicans are sending soldiers to New Orleans?
Gas Station Clerk: Yeah, I can't believe it.
Customer: I can't either, they say they're coming to help but they're gonna use that as an excuse to invade us!
Gas Station Clerk: I know, I know (totally serious)
Customer: And we'll be totally defenseless when they attack! (pausing) Let me get three scratch and wins and a pack of American Spirits!

Raised in Nebraska? then I'm sure you've heard dumber[sic] conversations. For example "Go Cornhuskers". Or "The N on their helmets is for kNowledge" Or pretty much any normal everyday exchange of ideas in Kearney.

[Rasputin]

Sad, but the humorous flipside to that coin might be the reaction here in Zion. Having slighted Romney and taken on a Pentacostal Dominionist it may very well cause chaos with the LDS vote. That'd be funny.




That would be funny if Utah went to Obie.

Those who are comfortably ignorant of what Pentecostal Christians are, don't know why Truth is freaking on this, but generally speaking, they are the ones that agnostics and atheists take the most offense at, always seeking to "convert" anyone they talk to. Pentacostals are like pitbulls for the version of God that sends everyone to hell that doesn't repeat after them, acknowledging acceptance of "Jesus", and praying together with hands held high, so all can demonstrate that the proper devotion is being displayed. It is a literalist, fundamentalist sect of Christianity.

Of course, she's only being installed to become a VP, there's no chance that McCain would die in office, he's as healthy as any 72 year old. :wink:

Of course, I am just fear mongering, because we all know that elected officials to the executive branch don't allow their religious beliefs to influence the execution of their duties.

[doughboyshredder]

If Obama does what he says he is going to do, we're screwed(increasing corporate taxes across the board may help the federal balance sheet in the short term but by no stretch of the imagination does taxing corporations more help the economy for the rest of us). If he takes more than he says he will, we're doubly screwed.

If McCain does what he says he will do than we are taxed less. If he raises taxes, we're screwed. So if McCain screws us we are where we would be if Obama keeps his word. Do you really expect Obama to keep his word?



He already is.

"Two years later, on the day before the U.S. invaded Iraq, McCain declared on the Senate floor that he could not vote for a second package of tax cuts worth $350 billion, most of which went to wealthy investors.

McCain remained the stubborn holdout. That same year, he told NBC's Meet the Press that he voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthiest Americans."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91544414


In the day to day workings of the government McCain went against his party and his president, over a popular measure, as a matter of conscience without the prospect of personal gain from his actions. Show me where Obama has had the courage to do that.

I completely see where you are coming from.

I am also scared about all of the programs and initiatives that Obama seems to want to enact. They all cost money and currently he intends on continuing to run the country with a huge deficit.

Don't forget though, that even though McCain originally opposed the Bush tax cuts in the primaries he made it clear that he would not allow them to expire. This was just one example of the ways that McCain has moved rapidly away from his maverick status.

Furthermore, I have hope that if Obama / Biden can get elected and work with the congress and the senate we may see economic growth that will offset the potentially damaging effect of tax increases.

Inflation and the collapse of the dollar on the world markets has a much more direct effect on your personal spending ability than any minor tax increases / decreases. I don't see a McCain / Palin presidency with a Republican administration doing what is necessary to address this issue.

It does not matter if your tax rate drops by 5% at the same time inflation grows at 5%.

You are still fucked


Back on topic, because really Palin?

Come the fuck on.

I hope it turns out that the baby is her grandaughter.

[Cono Este]

I'm pretty split right now. Palin did not help McCain for me.

But what I really want to know is:

Are we going to blame the winning party for winning, like we have the past 8 yrs around here. Or are we going to blame the losing party for losing?

The dems have done little in the past 8 yrs to counter balance things. And you can be stuck all you want to principles of moral superiority, but it wont help you for shit to win this election. Sad but true.

I think it will be quite interesting to see where the votes end up, its not going to based strictly on partisan lines this time.

[Crud's Uncle]

Personally I like Palin more than McCain. If she is good, she will turn her experience actually running something into a plus. Obama and Biden have never had to be the boss. BTW, Pailin has 5 more years of public office experience than Obama.

Tough guy Biden will have to be careful not to turn off the electorate by looking like a bully. I would love to see her husband beat the crap out of the douchbag.

Wow, Palin got some bad press. If in fact she cleaned up corruption and bucked the system, I am not at all surprised. Have you ever fired someone without giveng the unvarnished reason to the public? Happens everyday.

Pailin

Woman
Union Worker
NRA Member
Son in Army in Iraq
Religious
Small town
Track record of real change not speeches about change
Classy
Down to earth
Hunter

She won't appeal to you hard core libs, but she will appeal to the Reagan Democrats. She has excited the conservative base and will get them out campaigning.

I was not going to vote, now I am.

Obama is done.

[enlosandes]

What I can't figure out is why people are undecided/on the fence? The two tickets are pretty far apart on many things (war, economy, health care, taxes, now abortion, etc). One would think people already have made up their mind which way they are going to vote.

[Buster Highmen]

On the economy, is there common ground among you bitches that most assets are increasingly being held by fewer people:

>>>>
Gini Index (0.0 = perfect equality, 1.0 = one person has all the income)


1947 .376
1948 .371
1949 .378
1950 .379
1951 .363
1952 .368
1953 .359
1954 .371
1955 .363
1956 .358
1957 .351
1958 .354
1959 .361
1960 .364
1961 .374
1962 .362
1963 .362
1964 .361
1965 .356
1966 .349
1967 .348
1968 .348
1969 .349
1970 .353
1971 .355
1972 .359
1973 .356
1974 .355
1975 .357
1976 .358
1977 .363
1978 .363
1979 .365
*
1980 .365
1981 .369
1982 .380
1983 .382
1984 .383
1985 .389
1986 .392
1987 .393
1988 .395
1989 .401
1990 .396
1991 .397
1992 .403
1993 .429
1994 .426

Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census, Current Population Reports, Series P60

<<<<

According to this data, most U.S. citizens are getting less of the economic pie.

Does anyone disagree? If so, why and back it up with data.

[Buster Highmen]

But what I really want to know is:

Are we going to blame the winning party for winning, like we have the past 8 yrs around here. Or are we going to blame the losing party for losing?
Personally, I don't blame the Republicans for winning.

I do blame the electorate for having their heads in a cloud of burning credit card smoke.

I do hold Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al responsible for distorting intelligence and manipulating 9/11 emotions into an unworthy war in which my boys died for unclear and suspect reasons.

I blame the current administration for catering to the wealthy at the expense of the middle class. I blame current and previous administrations for deregulation and for not encouraging economic diversity.

One of the consortium bitched about Pelosi's contempt for a voting constituent. She can't begin to hold a warm ash to the contempt that the current administration has for the masses.

[truth]

Personally I like Palin more than McCain. If she is good, she will turn her experience actually running something into a plus. Obama and Biden have never had to be the boss. BTW, Pailin has 5 more years of public office experience than Obama.

Tough guy Biden will have to be careful not to turn off the electorate by looking like a bully. I would love to see her husband beat the crap out of the douchbag.

Wow, Palin got some bad press. If in fact she cleaned up corruption and bucked the system, I am not at all surprised. Have you ever fired someone without giveng the unvarnished reason to the public? Happens everyday.

Pailin

Woman
Union Worker
NRA Member
Son in Army in Iraq
Religious
Small town
Track record of real change not speeches about change
Classy
Down to earth
Hunter

She won't appeal to you hard core libs, but she will appeal to the Reagan Democrats. She has excited the conservative base and will get them out campaigning.

I was not going to vote, now I am.

Obama is done.

You've glossed right over the facts. Do you read the threads you post in or do you just post ignorant drivel as some form of linguistic masturbation?

[telebobski]

Couple of things about Gini coefficient Buster:
It measures only income, not proceeds from wealth (investment returns).

You didn't provide info after 1994. If you did, you would note that the coefficient for the US increased more during Clinton's administration than Nixon's, Reagan's, Bush the Elder's and his idiot son's combined.

What does that tell you?

[telebobski]

I...
It does not matter if your tax rate drops by 5% at the same time inflation grows at 5%.

You are still fucked

Doughboy, you've made a couple of comments like the above about inflation and tax rates. I'm struggling to see your point.

You do realize that tax rates are indexed to inflation, so that the brackets and deduction amounts increase with inflation too?

Yes you could say that inflation on non-deductible expenses eat into your real income. At the same time, you can use debt financing to pay for capital assets (housing) with cheaper dollars too.

Please enlighten

[Rubicon]

On the economy, is there common ground among you bitches that most assets are increasingly being held by fewer people:

Gini Index (0.0 = perfect equality, 1.0 = one person has all the income)

The Gini coefficient is seriously flawed when applied to the country as a whole. It only considers income, not purchasing power. A person living in Manhattan or San Fransisco might have an income twice as large as someone living in SLC or Minneapolis yet their standard of living be very similar. As people increasingly migrate to the cities and the cost of living increases in major population centers the Gini index is going to grow. This says very little about the standard of living people enjoy.


Quality of life is about more than the numbers on the pay stub.

[TruckeeLocal]

Doughboy, you've made a couple of comments like the above about inflation and tax rates. I'm struggling to see your point.

That and suggesting mathematically a 5% tax cut is a wash for 5% inflation is plain wrong.

[str8line]

That's great, another redneck in the White House.

It's interesting that according to Gov. Tim Kaine(D) of Virginia, McCain had never met Palin and spoke to her just once on the phone in February before calling and offering her the VP slot last week. Yet McCain called her his "soulmate" on a Fox interview this morning. As Kaine said it's kind of like George Bush saying that he looked into Vladimir Putin's soul and found a good man.

McCain's policy stances are quite centrist but his choice of Palin is reminiscent of the pandering to "Dumb America" that embodied the Bush campaigns. Based on her ultra-conservative positions and sum worldly experience of Alaska and Idaho and the fact that McCain has already had cancer and is as old as the Parthenon, any personal ambivilence about who is elected in November has just gone out the window.

[doughboyshredder]

That and suggesting mathematically a 5% tax cut is a wash for 5% inflation is plain wrong.

I was speaking in general terms.

My point is that whether candidate A or B says they are going to decrease or increase taxes by x amount it is really irrelevant because of the effects of inflation and the subsequent devaluation of the u.s. dollar.

If the ten dollars an hour you make this year is worth less compared to the ten dollars an hour you made the year before then you are having your money taken from you in the form of a hidden tax called inflation.

If the winning candidate raises your taxes a little but at the same time improves our economy and reverses this frightening trend of rampant inflation and devaluation of the dollar, then the ten dollars an hour you make this year is worth more compared to the ten dollars an hour you made the year before then you're not getting screwed anymore.

I believe that under a McCain / Palin presidency our economy will continue to crumble. Your money will continue to be worth less than it was the previous month. But you wont have to give as much of it to the government.

Funny thing is the super rich will not be affected by this because of their ability to hold investments in other currencies. They actually will profit off of the devaluation of the u.s. dollar.

Inflation is an invisible tax on the poor and the middle class.

[uglymoney]

^^^^ Doesn't matter if people are liberal or conservative till more people think like this we will continue to be screwed. It might be that we have to face the second great depression before we can claw our way out of this. The will doesn't seem to be there right now.

I continue to be stunned by the Palin pick. I hope it clears things up for the Americans who aren't paying close attention. McCain-Palin = 4 more years of Bush Cheney. If the Dems were having are hard time making the argument before, they sure as hell won't know.

Lots of trading on the Intrade markets. I see that things are holding pretty steady with Obama at are 60 and McCain around 40.

We shall see how this shakes out.

[uglymoney]

Funny thing is the super rich will not be affected by this because of their ability to hold investments in other currencies. They actually will profit off of the devaluation of the u.s. dollar.

Assuming that we don't take the rest of the worlds economies down with us. Even the rich are going to be in for a rough ride.

[str8line]

McCain-Palin = 4 more years of Bush Cheney. If the Dems were having are hard time making the argument before, they sure as hell won't know.

We shall see how this shakes out.

Palin is just a tool to get McCain elected. Once in office she will be vanquished to the celebrity tour and I doubt will have any real input. McCain will not be like Bush, he knows how to think for himself. I think McCain will move toward the center once his charade of being a conservative is over.

[uglymoney]

Palin is just a tool to get McCain elected. Once in office she will be vanquished to the celebrity tour and I doubt will have any real input. McCain will not be like Bush, he knows how to think for himself. I think McCain will move toward the center once his charade of being a conservative is over.

You could be right. I'm not so sure where McCain stands though. He tries to play it both ways. I used to think he could think for himself. That has changed over the last several years.

My point was that this makes it easier for the Democrats to make their argument that this will be four more years of the same - true or not ^. McCain could die as well. Palin looks a lot like Bushy with her cronyistic behavior and her religious dogmatism which = the possibility that we may have another extremely sketchy president. The country can't afford that.

[Cono Este]

Palin is just a tool to get McCain elected. Once in office she will be vanquished to the celebrity tour and I doubt will have any real input. McCain will not be like Bush, he knows how to think for himself. I think McCain will move toward the center once his charade of being a conservative is over.

Very true. The dems just cant seem to learn you've got to make compromises to win.

I'd say McCain's choice has also cost him alot of moderate reps. votes though. Obama needs to pick up as many as those as he can, as he pointed out about the midterm elections in his speech. He should have gone that route in his vp pick somehow.

[uglymoney]

Very true. The dems just cant seem to learn you've got to make compromises to win.

Maybe. For instance I don't think it would have made sense for Obama to have picked a Nader to insure himself that the leftists don't stay home on election day. If McCain had nuts and thought for himself like he pretends Palin never would have entered the equation.

edit - 1503 posts? I need to get a life.

[telebobski]

What I can't figure out is why people are undecided/on the fence? The two tickets are pretty far apart on many things (war, economy, health care, taxes, now abortion, etc). One would think people already have made up their mind which way they are going to vote.

I'm a fiscal conservative and long-time republican who is an aetheist, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, anti-Iraq war and thinks we need to look at a nationwide single-payer health care plan.

Obama so far offers me only some vague prospect of "leadership" and "change". This coming from someone who hasn't lead much of anything and lacks much any real record of change.

I like McCain's stance on reducing federal spending for things like farm subsidies and reducing tariffs, but his (and Palin's) pandering to the evangelicals pisses me off.

So, who the hell do I vote for?

[doughboyshredder]

I'm a fiscal conservative and long-time republican who is an aetheist, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, anti-Iraq war and thinks we need to look at a nationwide single-payer health care plan.

Obama so far offers me only some vague prospect of "leadership" and "change". This coming from someone who hasn't lead much of anything and lacks much any real record of change.

I like McCain's stance on reducing federal spending for things like farm subsidies and reducing tariffs, but his (and Palin's) pandering to the evangelicals pisses me off.

So, who the hell do I vote for?

I'm a fiscal conservative and long-time democrat who is an aetheist, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, anti-Iraq war .

Some people decide their wallet is more important than their morals.

All you have to ask yourself is do you consider your money to be more important than your stated beliefs. If you do vote McSame.

I personally care a more about my beliefs than my wallet. I am an aetheist and I believe that maintaining a clear seperation of church and state is more important than my money.

I personally care about the right of women to choose their own destiny, in regards to sexual freedom and reproductive freedom. I believe this is more important than my money.

I personally care about my gay and lesbian friends rights to live their lives in union with the same respects and benefits of straight couples more than I care about my money.

I am strongly opposed to the change in our national defense strategy that occured under Bush. Not being a nation with an offensive national defense strategy is more important to me than my money.

So which is more important to you?

The election is now as clear cut as can be.

I will be voting for OBAMA / BIDEN

[Cono Este]

I'm a fiscal conservative and long-time republican who is an aetheist, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, anti-Iraq war and thinks we need to look at a nationwide single-payer health care plan.

Obama so far offers me only some vague prospect of "leadership" and "change". This coming from someone who hasn't lead much of anything and lacks much any real record of change.

I like McCain's stance on reducing federal spending for things like farm subsidies and reducing tariffs, but his (and Palin's) pandering to the evangelicals pisses me off.

So, who the hell do I vote for?

We are the voters that seem to have been forgoten about. i think it is a big mistake not going after us after we handed so much to the dems in the mid term election. They must like losing or something.

As long as we have people like doughboy lathering us in guilt with their moral superiority instead of swaying us over, they will just find a new way to lose this time.

[truth]

Voting with your wallet is just plain stupid. Taxes are temporary. They change with the wind. Other things are not so forgiving. Foreign policy and the Supreme Court come to mind not to mention an energy plan that might actually be viable for more than 5 years. Don't kid yourself to the danger that is the Pentacostal Dominianist movement. The rapid rise of this sect in the armed forces overseas is something to be very concerned about. Especially if these soldiers come home to a kindred spirit in the VP job. Do your homework. Plain is not what she might seem on some RNC checklist.

I'm done here. Thanks for the debate.

[Cono Este]

Anyone can raise taxes and fix things. How about these politicians stop wasting it all do something about it instead? Thats how every other ceo is judged.

I'll be impressed with a democrat who can do something without charging more for it. Taxes under republicans is even unjust in my mind. Whats the diff between them anyway, a few %?

[Meadow Skipper]

(McCain)'s a maverick because he does the right thing for the public in spite of his party membership, obama isn't a maverick because his party was generally trying to do the right thing for the public all along.
Heh. I'm thinking this Palin deal shows how completely he's lost his maverick cred. A maverick would have selected Lieberman, who McCain really likes and was at the top of his list. But I believe the party puppet-masters let him know that a pro-abortion-rights moderate was out of the question and that he'd better pick someone to appease the evangelical far-right. Then he had one of his famous impulsive moments, and rather than select a proven-quantity like Romney or Pawlenty, he figured to draw some extra attention and bump for his campaign. I wonder if he considered (or even knew) that she's in favor of shooting wolves. Not that it would matter to the constituency he's reaching out to.

McSame's maverick days are long past - his strings are pulled as certainly as GWB's.

[Smokey McPole]

McCain's "maverick" BS is about as believeable as O'Bama's "change" BS. Aside from the garnish they're both the same overcooked steak.

[Cono Este]

Heh. I'm thinking this Palin deal shows how completely he's lost his maverick cred. A maverick would have selected Lieberman, who McCain really likes and was at the top of his list. But I believe the party puppet-masters let him know that a pro-abortion-rights moderate was out of the question and that he'd better pick someone to appease the evangelical far-right. Then he had one of his famous impulsive moments, and rather than select a proven-quantity like Romney or Pawlenty, he figured to draw some extra attention and bump for his campaign. I wonder if he considered (or even knew) that she's in favor of shooting wolves. Not that it would matter to the constituency he's reaching out to.

McSame's maverick days are long past - his strings are pulled as certainly as GWB's.


That, or he is just trying to win. Damn him!

[The Dad]

I'm a fiscal conservative and long-time republican who is an aetheist, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, anti-Iraq war and thinks we need to look at a nationwide single-payer health care plan.

So what are the reasons why you're a long-term Republican?

[flyby]

you know why palin is really scary? move some letters around and you can spell STALIN

and STALIN wasn't such a great leader, now was he.

[TruckeeLocal]

and STALIN wasn't such a great leader, now was he.

Says who ? And anyway are we expecting a VP to be a great leader ? I thought that was the President's job while the VP gets the grunt jobs the POTUS doesn't want to deal with. Oh, and I think you haves some issues with letters while trying to demonize someone you'd never heard 3 days ago.

[telebobski]

I'm a fiscal conservative and long-time democrat who is an aetheist, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, anti-Iraq war .

Some people decide their wallet is more important than their morals.

All you have to ask yourself is do you consider your money to be more important than your stated beliefs. If you do vote McSame.

I personally care a more about my beliefs than my wallet. I am an aetheist and I believe that maintaining a clear seperation of church and state is more important than my money.

I personally care about the right of women to choose their own destiny, in regards to sexual freedom and reproductive freedom. I believe this is more important than my money.

I personally care about my gay and lesbian friends rights to live their lives in union with the same respects and benefits of straight couples more than I care about my money.

I am strongly opposed to the change in our national defense strategy that occured under Bush. Not being a nation with an offensive national defense strategy is more important to me than my money.

So which is more important to you?

The election is now as clear cut as can be.

I will be voting for OBAMA / BIDEN

So you would rather vote for someone with no record of leading or accomplishing anything in government instead of McCain?

I don't see the dichotomy between money and morals that you do. I really don't think that McCain/Palin can do much about separation of church/state.

Chief Justice Roberts (a Bush nominee) has already said that Roe v Wade is Stari Decisis - settled law. Congress has a lot to say about Supreme Court selections, so I'm not to concerned about erosion in abortion rights.

Many states are enacting laws allowing gay marriage, (even one with a Republican Gov!) and I think a lot more will in the next few years. Probably not nationwide, but I'm not sure that citizens of the South/Midwest are ready for that - there's that pesky majority rule thing to consider, even if you don't agree with their beliefs. Even Obama isn't going to make that happen, no matter how much he favors greater GLBT rights

I too am pissed about our current holier-than-thou foreign policy, but in my experience, Presidents with real military experience (which GWB lacks) are less anxious to send our troops into harms way than those who don't.

McCain and Palin both have a real record of cutting waste in government spending. All I've heard from Obama is a bunch of platitudes. Where's the Beef?

And don't forget the intangibles. McCain's wife has big tits and sells beer. Palin is relatively hot (esp. compared to Hillary) who likes outdoor sports.:fmicon:

[Meadow Skipper]

That, or he is just trying to win. Damn him!
Exactly - he certainly doesn't seem to be driven by any principle higher than that.

[Rubicon]

And don't forget the intangibles. McCain's wife has big tits and sells beer. Palin is relatively hot (esp. compared to Hillary) who likes outdoor sports.:fmicon:



^^^The man makes a good point.^^^

[Meadow Skipper]

...I really don't think that McCain/Palin can do much about separation of church/state.

Chief Justice Roberts (a Bush nominee) has already said that Roe v Wade is Stari Decisis - settled law. Congress has a lot to say about Supreme Court selections, so I'm not to concerned about erosion in abortion rights.

Many states are enacting laws allowing gay marriage, (even one with a Republican Gov!) and I think a lot more will in the next few years.
So why would we want an administration that is pledged to address those issues? At best it would be a massive waste of time, money and effort. We got serious problems to solve without getting bogged in those mud-pits.


I too am pissed about our current holier-than-thou foreign policy, but in my experience, Presidents with real military experience (which GWB lacks) are less anxious to send our troops into harms way than those who don't.
You aren't listening to the candidates are you?


McCain and Palin both have a real record of cutting waste in government spending. All I've heard from Obama is a bunch of platitudes. Where's the Beef?
Uh, by far the hudgest sources of waste in government spending are 1) stupid wars predicated on misinformation, and 2) government contracting (especially in support of item 1 above). Who would you expect to be more focused on addressing those sources of waste?


And don't forget the intangibles. McCain's wife has big tits and sells beer. Palin is relatively hot (esp. compared to Hillary) who likes outdoor sports.:fmicon:
I hadn't thought about that. Maybe they'll show pink while in office!

[telebobski]

So what are the reasons why you're a long-term Republican?

In my part of the country (Oregon) there's a long history of accomplishment by Republicans. They pushed through the first bottle recycling law in the country. They made the state's beaches public property. Senator Mark Hatfield led the fight to kill the Vietnam war by blocking appropriations bills. Governor Tom McCall put on a rock concert (Vortex) to avoid conflict during a national convention of the VFW during the Vietnam conflict. Republicans were responsible for laws decriminalizing marijuana possession in this state.

A Republican (Eisenhower) brought us the interstate highway system and was smart enough to put control of nuclear weapons outside of the military's hands.

Not to mention experience with GOP vs Dem president's for the last 50 years. Dem's got us so deeply into Vietnam we couldn't make a graceful exit (yes, Eisenhower sent in advisors, but Kennedy and Johnson did the bulk of the buildup). Reagan's policy toward the Soviet Union enabled a huge reduction in defense spending during the 90s.

OTOH what did Jimmy Carter accomplish? How 'bout Clinton? If someone can point to one of Bill's accomplishments (other than getting a lot of strange), I'd sure like to hear it.

I think Obama would have a greater chance of being hit by a meteorite than being elected president if the Bush regime wasn't the biggest bunch of fuckups in the last 50 years.

That said, I feel lot less connected to the GOP since its hijacking by the evangelicals. Problem is, there is no viable party of the center.

[Tippster]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_SbQqnmutf0g/SFe3AF_VuXI/AAAAAAAAL9I/6WeSBlP8y_c/jesus+raptor.jpg

[David Witherspoon]

Oregon Republicans are what the rest of us call Democrats.
Dubya spent whatever political capital his predecessors accumulated long ago.
Ditch them, maybe they'll get a clue and ditch their loonies.
To everyone's benefit.

[Cliff Huckable]

McCain's "maverick" BS is about as believable as O'Bama's "change" BS. Aside from the garnish they're both the same overcooked steak.

But don't you think that the damage done to America's reputation, prestige, and interatonal credibility has at least a chance at improvement under Obama, and zero chance under McCain?


You could be right. I'm not so sure where McCain stands though. He tries to play it both ways. I used to think he could think for himself. That has changed over the last several years.

My point was that this makes it easier for the Democrats to make their argument that this will be four more years of the same - true or not ^. McCain could die as well. Palin looks a lot like Bushy with her cronyistic behavior and her religious dogmatism which = the possibility that we may have another extremely sketchy president. The country can't afford that.

I used to be a McCain fan - it was so long ago I almost forgot. It was so spirit-crushing to see him turn into a two-face opportunist who'd throw any belief or person under a bus to further his career.
Agree that Pallin is Bush-like in the manner you describe. As much of a cipher, too. The country can't afford a President Pallin.

[Mathematics]

I was suprised that McCan picked Palin...having a woman on the ticket may help a little but once people start digging into her shes fucked.

On the plus side if she does get elected (and Ted Stevens ends up in jail) hopefully she can continue his work in making alaska the number one recipient of federal funds.

[Gnu]

OTOH what did Jimmy Carter accomplish? How 'bout Clinton? If someone can point to one of Bill's accomplishments (other than getting a lot of strange), I'd sure like to hear it.


Balanced the federal budget and actually started to pay down the national debt.

Neither of which ever accomplished by Reagan, Bush 41, or Bush 43.

[JoeStrummer]

1994 Crime Bill - Put more cops on the streets
1997 Balanced Budget Act
Largest 3 year paydown in the national debt in history - $363 billion (before Bush ran it back up)
Government spending as a share of the economy dropped to 18%, the lowest since before LBJ's Great Society
60 million acres of roadless land (before Bush reversed some of it)

These are a few I can think of off the toop of my head.

[13]

I was suprised that McCan picked Palin...having a woman on the ticket may help a little but once people start digging into her shes fucked.

why? what can you (as an Alaskan) tell us about her?

[telebobski]

So why would we want an administration that is pledged to address those issues? At best it would be a massive waste of time, money and effort. We got serious problems to solve without getting bogged in those mud-pits.

Agreed. All this religious right shit from the GOP pisses me off. OTOH, I see little or no risk that the currently Demo Congress (which will likely get more that way this fall) will pass any laws restricting abortion or GLTB issues, or approve any judges with this bent.



You aren't listening to the candidates are you?

Oh, but I am. I hear Barack continually say "Blah, blah, blah CHANGE blah, blah, blah".



Uh, by far the hudgest sources of waste in government spending are 1) stupid wars predicated on misinformation, and 2) government contracting (especially in support of item 1 above). Who would you expect to be more focused on addressing those sources of waste?

Agreed again, at least in the context of the recent past. Both sides want out of Iraq with all deliberate speed. So let's move on to other wastes of taxpayer money. Like maybe farm subsidies? Check out the candidate's positions and voting records on that slab of pork. Then factor in that McCain is willing to piss off his base in the midwest with his opposition.

Again, the GOP's evangelical bent (and all that it entails, like trying to prosecute Oregon Drs for prescribing drugs in compliance with the state's Death with Dignity Act) pisses me off. But, does that mean I'm going to vote for somebody with little experience who is running on a platform of "I will be different than the current regime of douchebags but I'm not ready to provide specifics"?. Highly doubtful.

At this point I'm leaning toward a write-in vote for Brklyn/Sprite, even though they are both east coasters ;)

[Tippster]

I hear Barack continually say "Blah, blah, blah CHANGE blah, blah, blah".
...
But, does that mean I'm going to vote for somebody with little experience who is running on a platform of "I will be different than the current regime of douchebags but I'm not ready to provide specifics"?. Highly doubtful.Ummm... the "blah blah blah"s you heard in the acceptance Speech on Thursday were the specifics you are looking for, you just forgot to take your Ritalin so you could pay attention.

The effort people go through to remain ignorant is breathtaking, sometimes.

[TruckeeLocal]

Ummm... the "blah blah blah"s you heard in the acceptance Speech on Thursday were the specifics you are looking for, you just forgot to take your Ritalin so you could pay attention.

The effort people go through to remain ignorant is breathtaking, sometimes.
I listened to his speach and I found it remarkable about how unspecific his specifics actually were. It was a laundry list of pandering points. But that's what I heard. Others heard what they wanted to hear too :redface:

[Smokey McPole]

Ummm... the "blah blah blah"s you heard in the acceptance Speech on Thursday were the specifics you are looking for, you just forgot to take your Ritalin so you could pay attention.

The effort people go through to remain ignorant is breathtaking, sometimes.

If O'Bama's counting on the majority of voters to pay really close attention to all his speaches (so they can hear what he's really saying) and read his books and spend hours online researching him, then he really is fuct in Nov. Most people aren't going to go through all that trouble. That's just reality.

[powder11]

Ummm... the "blah blah blah"s you heard in the acceptance Speech on Thursday were the specifics you are looking for, you just forgot to take your Ritalin so you could pay attention.

The effort people go through to remain ignorant is breathtaking, sometimes.

I'm no McLame supporter, but what I heard come out of Obama's mouth are the same empty promises and wishful thinking that most politicians spew during an election. The only difference with Obama is he is such a compelling public speaker that people tend to believe his brand of bullshit. Yes, the country needs change, but we are going to get that with either candidate. McLame is not liked by the neo-con Bush family and his policies will be quite different from what we've seen. Bozo the clown could win the next election and we'd still be bettter off, so I don't really care either way and that doesn't make me any more or less ignorant than the stupid people who believe Obama is the second coming of christ.

[telebobski]

Ummm... the "blah blah blah"s you heard in the acceptance Speech on Thursday were the specifics you are looking for, you just forgot to take your Ritalin so you could pay attention.

The effort people go through to remain ignorant is breathtaking, sometimes.

I didn't watch his speech - I was on a mountain bike ride at the time. But because I value your opinion on this board, I took the time to watch it on youtube. The specifics as I heard them - which to me started at minute 20 and ended at about minute 25 of the 45 minute speech:

(1) Eliminate tax breaks for company's that ship jobs overseas. I was confused about what these breaks might be. A google search of "tax breaks for company's that ship jobs overseas" yields this link http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_kind_of_tax_breaks_does_the.html
Summary - there is no incentive in the tax code for shipping jobs overseas. US corporate income taxes are some of the highest in the world, which creates an incentive to offshore jobs.

(2) Make taxes more balanced so the rich pay more and the poor pay less. Eliminate capital gains taxes for small businesses and startups to create high-paying jobs in technology. Also, reduce tax rates for lower-income people (he kind of glossed over whether he would increase rates on the high brackets). I wonder if he realizes who is going to benefit from eliminating cap gains? In the 20-person software company I run, the benefit goes a bunch of already very wealthy people - private equity investors and their limited partners.

(3) End our dependence on mideast oil by 2018. He didn't specify at what point "dependence" ends, but currently about 10-15% of our oil consumption is from middle east imports. It doesn't take much of a switch to Canadian tar sands oil to get the mid-east portion down to 5-8%. Way to create the stretch goal BO!

(4) Drilling is not the answer, but we should tap our domestic natural gas resources. Didn't say how he was going to get them out of the ground.

(5) He will promote clean coal and safe nuclear power sources. Duh.

(6) He will help the auto industry retool. He didn't provide anything more specific. But he doesn't want to provide big corporations any breaks - he said that many times. I'm sure this was not at all intended to win over Michigan and Indiana voters.

(7) He will make cars easier to afford. Didn't say how...

(8) He will invest $15 billion per year in affordable renewable energy sources, including biofuels. Granted, he said 150 billion over 10 years, but I couldn't find anything on his website that was more definitive, so I just applied a simple average. I couldn't find out how much the private sector is already investing in these sectors, but I have to believe its one hellova lot higher than $15 billion per year. I would be interested in seeing the numbers if any of you have them. I have to wonder how he thinks his administration will add value to investing decisions that the private sector isn't already doing. But alas, nothing more specific.

(9) He will hire more teachers at higher pay and make them accountable. Hmmm, I thought local school districts set pay levels and budgets. And I guess his plan to ensure accountablility will be a lot better than No Child Left Behind, if only he would tell us how.

(10) College for everyone who wants to go.

(11) Affordable Health Care, with those not on private plans to get the same deal as the Senate. This one I can get behind. If he wins, I'm gonna be dropping our company's plan (100% employer paid, costs the company about $1000/employee/month) and signing everybody up for the Senate's plan.

That was about the extent of the specifics I heard. Granted, I didn't include stuff like "protect Social Security" and "ensure equal pay for women".

What did I miss?

Now, on to what Barack didn't provide specifics about.

(1) How he will get our sorry ass out of Iraq. The single biggest issue in my mind, and the most I heard was "I won't follow Bush".

(2) Immigration. Maybe he used the word during those 45 minutes, but I sure didn't hear anything specific. So, I looked on his website. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/immigration/. Specifics include:

Create Secure Borders by spending more money

Improve Our Immigration System, including meeting the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill. Hmmm, what about the GWB (a known retard) Guest worker program

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.

Allow undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

Do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration.

Which sounds an awful lot the the plan of John McCain, an obvious tool of the failed Bush regime.

And while I don't think much of McCain, I don't think Obama is the answer either.

I have to agree with you, the effort some people go through to avoid critical thought is stunning sometimes

[cinnepa]

not even looking at the views of the canidates for prez or v.p........i'm thinking to myself, what if the prez rolls a 7, or gets taken out...who's going to run the country now? joe or sarah? seems like a no brainer.

[Tippster]

Oh, so he didn't address the specifics you wanted to her. Blah blah blah indeed. ;)

Look, regarding Iraq what did you expect the guy to say? "I will take out batallion #XX on Jan. 31st and bring them home, then move group Y from Anbar to Kabul, and..." You know that's not going to happen. From day one he has called for establishing timetables for a timely but quick withdrawal, but he cannot talk to the people involved in doing just that (the Joint Chiefs) until he is the Commander in Chief. What specifics has McCain conveyed on this issue? Do you think it's a happy coinky-dink that the lame duck Bush administration is trying to co-opt this platform at the 11th hour?

Bush's guest worker program is mainly opposed by his own party. The man, to what little credit he deserves, was Gov. of a border state after all, and McCain is a Senator from one. Listen to Bill Richardson and he has stated the same for years. These guys get that these jobs are not and never will be wanted by American Citizens, so we do need some kind of guest worker program (used very successfully in Europe) to get the crops picked at the very least. Besides that you we will need to spend more money on securing our borders and likely a shitload more money helping the source countries in Central America give reasons for people to STAY HOME. Once again, what has McCain proposed that is more specific in this area?

I'm not trying to get you to vote as I obviously will, but I just don't get how Obama gets criticized for being unspecific or promising the moon when ALL candidates are like that, at least the ones with a chance to get elected? It is patently impossible, thank the founding fathers, for a President to rule by decree, so his job is to propose initiatives and policy for the Congress to make into law. By definition that means selling the electorate, and by extension their elected representatives on ideas, not specifics. As soon as he would insist on a rigid framework for anything he would run into the reality that is bureaucratic self-interest, and the proposal would never get out of committee.

[David Witherspoon]

Utards will be familiar with the Eagle Forum.

Turns out Alaska has one too. In 2006, they sent out a questionnaire to the gubernatorial candidates - their usual collection of trolls and snares. Of course most of the candidates ignored it.

Sarah Palin, however, got verbose.

There's her well-known position that an undifferentiated blob of cells sired by a father raping his daughter (just to pick a scenario at random) must - by law - be borne to term. Unless it would flat-out kill her, that is - I mean, it's not like she's some kinda wacko 'streemixt. ... ho-hum, nothing controversial there, we can all agree that a girl's body belongs to the church oops gummint ...

But then there's this:
11. Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

Sarah Palin:
Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

Those of you who agree wholeheartedly will want to read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#History) and this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22unde r_God.22).

[Catfish]

Wasn't slavery good enough for the founding fathers as well?

[DharmaBum]

(1) Eliminate tax breaks for company's that ship jobs overseas. I was confused about what these breaks might be. A google search of "tax breaks for company's that ship jobs overseas" yields this link http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_kind_of_tax_breaks_does_the.html
Summary - there is no incentive in the tax code for shipping jobs overseas. US corporate income taxes are some of the highest in the world, which creates an incentive to offshore jobs.


(9) He will hire more teachers at higher pay and make them accountable. Hmmm, I thought local school districts set pay levels and budgets. And I guess his plan to ensure accountablility will be a lot better than No Child Left Behind, if only he would tell us how.




Good on you for taking the time to research it. I cannot speak to many of the points, but a couple of comments here...

1) I think he means eliminating the tax breaks they already receive if they decide to ship jobs overseas. Example: Company X doesn't have to pay property tax and gets a reduced tax rate on their profits. They decide to ship jobs to their new plant in Mexico; now they have to pay proerty tax and the full federal rate.
Just my interpretation.

9) No brainer. Eliminate NCLB and you've improved the education system. Ask a teacher.

[telebobski]

...

9) No brainer. Eliminate NCLB and you've improved the education system. Ask a teacher.

Your prolly right about that. I'm not a fan of teaching kids to take standardized tests.

But somebody please tell me what BO is planning to do differently to improve accountability?

Show me someone who doesn't want Change from the current band of losers. I'm just waiting for a plan of execution from BO that can pass a 5 minute test for internal consistency and bullshit. Something semi-measurable, like maybe an action plan, against which the voters can hold him accountable.

Now, he's got me on his health insurance plan, especially if it's at the same premiums as the Federal employees pay. See http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/08rates/2008non_postal_ffs.pdf

Based on that rate sheet and even without my company's exact health ins premiums in my head, we could cut our health insurance costs by about half if we were to drop our employer-paid plan, and then increase everybody's comp (grossed up for all taxes) so they could pay the federal employee premiums on a pre-tax basis and still be no worse off. And I think there are some things I might be able to do with cafeteria plans to make the deal even better. I could probably go for that.

So, you federal employee mags, how is your health insurance plan?

[timvwcom]

Your prolly right about that. I'm not a fan of teaching kids to take standardized tests.

But somebody please tell me what BO is planning to do differently to improve accountability?

For many reasons you strike me as a concern-troll on all this, sorry.

Sounds like you'd have to have Obama show up at your door step with a white board and spend hours answering your questions to consider him... Yet, you totally give McCain a pass on all this, not even discussing that he hasn't explained a single thing in any way further than Obama???

Yeah, totally a concern-troll. :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:

[Buster Highmen]

Couple of things about Gini coefficient Buster:
It measures only income, not proceeds from wealth (investment returns).

You didn't provide info after 1994. If you did, you would note that the coefficient for the US increased more during Clinton's administration than Nixon's, Reagan's, Bush the Elder's and his idiot son's combined.

What does that tell you?

The first thing this tells me is that somebody glossed over the omission of partisian factors of the Presidency or Congress in the post. Per usual, the gravitation of that ouvre detracts from the point of the post. In addition, I'll nitpick that claim with the following graph:

http://www.newsbatch.com/econ-ginihistus1.gif

Since 1980, the Gigi Index has risen from about .4 to about .46. Billy was President 92-200 during which time this graph indicates an increase from about .435 to just below .46. So I'll give Billy responsibility for a.25 increase. But the remainder of increase dring the presidents cited is more. \

Please do not interpret this as a defense of Clinton since it was under his watch that corporate merges increased and antitrust was lagging. Gates loves Billy. I didn't for this reason as well as a variety of others.

The second thing this tells me is that I may not undertand the Gini Index. My understanding is that it doesn't factor in wealth, but does include income, including dividends from investments.
From wiki: "Gini coefficients do include income gained from wealth; however, the Gini coefficient is used to measure net income more than net worth".

In any case, it is a significant measure.

The third thing it tells me is no one bothered to add or reference the Gini indices from the 1920s:
http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/GiniLong2004.jpg

Oh well.

[Buster Highmen]

The Gini coefficient is seriously flawed when applied to the country as a whole. It only considers income, not purchasing power. A person living in Manhattan or San Fransisco might have an income twice as large as someone living in SLC or Minneapolis yet their standard of living be very similar. As people increasingly migrate to the cities and the cost of living increases in major population centers the Gini index is going to grow. This says very little about the standard of living people enjoy.


Quality of life is about more than the numbers on the pay stub.

So if everyone in Manhattan has 3 times the average U.S. income, that will have no effect on locals or vacationers in Colorado or Utah?

Anyway, the response is expected, as is the disavowal of current economic indicators.

[Buster Highmen]

Is this graph interesting?

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif

[Buster Highmen]

Your prolly right about that. I'm not a fan of teaching kids to take standardized tests.

But somebody please tell me what BO is planning to do differently to improve accountability?

Show me someone who doesn't want Change from the current band of losers. I'm just waiting for a plan of execution from BO that can pass a 5 minute test for internal consistency and bullshit. Something semi-measurable, like maybe an action plan, against which the voters can hold him accountable.

I share these concerns



Now, he's got me on his health insurance plan, especially if it's at the same premiums as the Federal employees pay. See http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/08rates/2008non_postal_ffs.pdf

Based on that rate sheet and even without my company's exact health ins premiums in my head, we could cut our health insurance costs by about half if we were to drop our employer-paid plan, and then increase everybody's comp (grossed up for all taxes) so they could pay the federal employee premiums on a pre-tax basis and still be no worse off. And I think there are some things I might be able to do with cafeteria plans to make the deal even better. I could probably go for that.



I'm on this this too. I have a fucking kickass idea to implement, but I can'ty afford to leave my current employer to do so because of health insurance.

McCain's history with long time Arizona Republicans and Democrats indicates some far less than reputable behavior in my book. Goldwater dissed McCain a number of times after his behavior.

[Helldawg]

One need not be a misogynist to note that

a) She is grossly unqualified.
b) She is probably incapable of becoming qualified, ever.



Hmm, y'mean kinda like Barack Hussein? That fucking fucktard who chokes every time he doesn't have a script?

LOL, Palin was the last nail in the Osama bin Biden coffin. Gives women a rebound opportunity to support a female candidate, and right wingers an acceptable running mate.

This little convention bump (8 points for Osama), will be reversed and then some after Gustav blows thru and the Republican convention continues.

Say hello to 4 more years of the GOP!!

[P_McPoser]

Helldawg, please, you're embarrasing youself. You're making me look like an educated man, instead of a dumb, middle of the road redneck.

[The Dad]

Now, P, don't be so hard on yourself.

No one here thinks of you as "middle of the road."

:fm:

[Tippster]

That would be one fucked up road... ;)

[powder11]

I love it when Buster starts talkin #'s:biggrin:

[rideit]

Haha, Palin's daughter IS preggers, after all!
Fuckin' funny.
Dumb rednecks.

[telebobski]

For many reasons you strike me as a concern-troll on all this, sorry.

Sounds like you'd have to have Obama show up at your door step with a white board and spend hours answering your questions to consider him... Yet, you totally give McCain a pass on all this, not even discussing that he hasn't explained a single thing in any way further than Obama???

Yeah, totally a concern-troll. :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:

Tim, It's really simple. Some guy wants my vote - He is a great orator with a platform of "Leadership" and "Change We Can Believe In". But he's never led much of anything. He has eleven years of combined government experience, of which seven were in a state legislature, and two he's spent campaigning for Prez. He provides little in specifics about the "Changes We Can Believe In". Shit, Paris Hilton provides more specifics about her energy plan than Barack.

I can either:
(1) Mindlessly gargle his cum because I'm so desperate for change, or

(2) Apply some critical thought to the little he provides in specifics and try to make a reasoned decision on that basis. Just as I'm doing with McCain. But when I point out logical inconsistencies, statistical sleight of hand and just plain bullshit in Obama's speech, I'm a concern-troll. Guess that's a code word for "doesn't suck Obama cock".

Tim, go back to my review of his speech. Tell me what SPECIFICS of his Awesome Plan of Change I missed. You too Tippster - please point out the tangible points I didn't want to hear - something a little more specific than "protect social security" and "ensure equal pay for women" please. There's only about five minutes where he provided anything tangible, so it won't take that long to review. Then you can go back to jerking off to barackobama.com.


Edit for ownership of page 8, bitches.

[TruckeeLocal]

Apply some critical thought to the little he provides in specifics and try to make a reasoned decision on that basis.
This thread is morphing into the Science vs Religion thread. You have to have FAITH in Obama. Meanwhile McCain is judged on his actual record ('cause he's got one). Oh, and Palin has experience in the Executive branch so we better apply some scientific concepts to her record. But back to Obama - better check his 'Present' record. Many librodouches don't know what that is. It's the record of when Obama chose NOT to vote. Not to make a decision, or at least to avoid having his name on a decision. Very presidential.

[timvwcom]

Tim, It's really simple. Some guy wants my vote - He is a great orator with a platform of "Leadership" and "Change We Can Believe In". But he's never led much of anything. He has eleven years of combined government experience, of which seven were in a state legislature, and two he's spent campaigning for Prez. He provides little in specifics about the "Changes We Can Believe In". Shit, Paris Hilton provides more specifics about her energy plan than Barack.

First, I'm sure you are a great guy.

But acting like you don't know very much about Obama and want to learn enough to make a decision, followed by hints in your summaries and further critical statements that show you had clearly ALREADY formed an opinion (as proven by yer quote above), makes it look like you were faking your ignorance in the first place = concern troll. :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:

I don't think anyone needs to share my views of anything, but the process you used to introduce your talking points felt less than honest to me IMHO. But I don't know anything, and also... who cares what I think! :)

[whatcomridaz]

Fixed it for you


he's a maverick because he does the right thing for the public in spite of his party membership, obama isn't a maverick because his party was generally trying to do the right thing for the CHINESE all along. To me it seems absurd to criticize obama for that.

[Smokey McPole]

This thread is morphing into the Science vs Religion thread. You have to have FAITH in Obama. Meanwhile McCain is judged on his actual record ('cause he's got one). Oh, and Palin has experience in the Executive branch so we better apply some scientific concepts to her record. But back to Obama - better check his 'Present' record. Many librodouches don't know what that is. It's the record of when Obama chose NOT to vote. Not to make a decision, or at least to avoid having his name on a decision. Very presidential.

Must you resort to childish putdowns like "librodouche"? It really kinda negates the validity of your arguement.:nonono2:

[TruckeeLocal]

Must you resort to childish putdowns like "librodouche"? It really kinda negates the validity of your arguement.:nonono2:

Which song is that from ?

[Smokey McPole]

Which song is that from ?

Butthurt Blues

It's never been released. I'm good friends with Billy.

[truth]

I'm on this this too. I have a fucking kickass idea to implement, but I can'ty afford to leave my current employer to do so because of health insurance.



Maybe you can't afford not to. Maybe you don't have to.

[The Dad]

Tim, go back to my review of his speech. Tell me what SPECIFICS of his Awesome Plan of Change I missed.

I can't do that.

Of course, I can't think of a single nomination acceptance speech, ever, that did.

That's not really the purpose.

[Helldawg]

You're making me look like an educated man, instead of a dumb, middle of the road redneck.

Don't worry, no one will ever mistake you for an educated man. You are safe for now.

[P_McPoser]

Your prolly right about that. I'm not a fan of teaching kids to take standardized tests.

But somebody please tell me what BO is planning to do differently to improve accountability?

Show me someone who doesn't want Change from the current band of losers. I'm just waiting for a plan of execution from BO that can pass a 5 minute test for internal consistency and bullshit. Something semi-measurable, like maybe an action plan, against which the voters can hold him accountable.

Now, he's got me on his health insurance plan, especially if it's at the same premiums as the Federal employees pay. See http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/08rates/2008non_postal_ffs.pdf

Based on that rate sheet and even without my company's exact health ins premiums in my head, we could cut our health insurance costs by about half if we were to drop our employer-paid plan, and then increase everybody's comp (grossed up for all taxes) so they could pay the federal employee premiums on a pre-tax basis and still be no worse off. And I think there are some things I might be able to do with cafeteria plans to make the deal even better. I could probably go for that.

So, you federal employee mags, how is your health insurance plan?

I could get behind this as well. Looking at your links, it would be more expensive than what I pay now as an employee, but it looks like less than what most employers put out.

[P_McPoser]

Don't worry, no one will ever mistake you for an educated man. You are safe for now.

Sweet, just don't tell my employer.

[Powow]

To anyone that makes the argument that obama does not provide enough detail about his promises in his speeches: Show me one McCain speech that does provide the detail you are looking for.

Obama's speeches are no more or less detailed than typical campaign speeches, not only from this election but from the last few.

If you want details, you have to put a little effort into it, for either candidate. Stop being lazy disingenuous shitbags. If you've already made up your mind, fine. But don't pretend its because you can't find details for Obama's plans. Stand behind your opinion.

[liv2ski]

Back on topic, because really Palin?

Come the fuck on.

I hope it turns out that the baby is her grandaughter.

No shit. That would make my day. Can you imagine the look on McInsanes face if that was truth? Fucking classic and the death blow to his candidacy.
Did you guys see Barry with Joe on 60 Minutes last night? I was sold, yet again, after watching that interview.

[TruckeeLocal]

If you want details, you have to put a little effort into it, for either candidate. Stop being lazy disingenuous shitbags. If you've already made up your mind, fine. But don't pretend its because you can't find details for Obama's plans. Stand behind your opinion.
Obama said he was going to give specifics, and then his speach went on without specifics. Perhaps he should do what he says he's going to do ? Otherwise how can we judge him (or is it Him where we're not worthy to judge ?). Or perhaps your argument is that details and specifics are two completely different and unrelated things and that we shouldn't expect details (or specifics).

[doughboyshredder]

Fixed it for you

Huh?

Please explain how the democrats have been trying to help the Chinese?

Please.

[mrw]

Huh?

Please explain how the democrats have been trying to help the Chinese?

Please.

Well for one, Bill Clinton gave them access to a lot of tech in exchange for a lot of "campaign money" Hillary ran afoul of the same thing early in her bid for nomination. God knows what the hell she promised them. China and the Democrats are not that far apart in terms of political thought.

[doughboyshredder]

Well for one, Bill Clinton gave them access to a lot of tech in exchange for a lot of "campaign money" Hillary ran afoul of the same thing early in her bid for nomination. God knows what the hell she promised them. China and the Democrats are not that far apart in terms of political thought.


It's too easy to believe what you want to believe.

One of the travesties of the last 8 years of Republican rule has been the selling out of our country to China.

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/exportingamerica/upload/bushrecord_jobsoverseas.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20797485/chinas_allseeing_eye/print

Suggesting that the Democrats are hand in hand with the Chinese is completely stupid.

[Long duc dong]

Anyone who is enough of an idiot to advocate teaching creationism in schools has no business being in a position of authority.

[Buster Highmen]

Well for one, Bill Clinton gave them access to a lot of tech in exchange for a lot of "campaign money" Hillary ran afoul of the same thing early in her bid for nomination. God knows what the hell she promised them. China and the Democrats are not that far apart in terms of political thought.

Nixon started it.

[Tye 1on]

So is it the PBR or did I hear the vice prez's name pronounced both pahlin AND paylin during the first night of the convention? Sheesh.

[JoeStrummer]

I can't do that.

Of course, I can't think of a single nomination acceptance speech, ever, that did.

That's not really the purpose.

Good point. For laughs I read Reagan's 1980 acceptance speech. It took 46 minutes to deliver and it was essentially the same flavor of happy horseshit we are slagging O'Bama for delivering. . . .

"For those without skills, we'll find a way to help them get skills.
For those without job opportunities, we'll stimulate new opportunities, particularly in the inner cities where they live.
For those who have abandoned hope, we'll restore hope and we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make America great again!"

In fact, here is the only specific policy or proposal item I could find in the entire text . . . .

"I have long advocated a 30 percent reduction in income tax rates over a period of three years. This phased tax reduction would begin with a 10 percent "down payment" tax cut in 1981, which the Republicans and Congress and I have already proposed."

[timvwcom]

September 1st 2008 wasn't a good day for Sarah;


The Palin Meltdown in Slo-Mo (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/the_palin_meltdown_in_slomo.php)

By Greg Sargent - September 1, 2008, 6:20PM

On the same day that the Republicans were forced to dramatically cut back their convention activities, the Palin Meltdown unfolded with extraordinary speed. It's worth pondering the totality of what happened today, in a mere half day...

* The news that Palin once backed the Bridge to Nowhere went national (http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-08-31-palin-bridge_N.htm?csp=34).

* It emerged that Palin has links (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/sarah_palin_and_the_alaska_ind.php) to the bizarro Alaska Independence Party, which harbors the goal of seceding from the union that McCain and Palin seek to lead.

* The news broke (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-earmarks1-2008sep01,0,6108885.story) that as governor, Palin relied on an earmark system she now opposes. Taken along with the Bridge to Nowhere stuff, this threatens to undercut her reformist image, something that was key to her selection as McCain's Veep candidate.

* The news broke (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/mccain_campaign_palins_17yearo.php) that Palin's 17-year-old daughter became pregnant out of wedlock at a time when the conservative base had finally started rallying behind McCain's candidacy.

* Barely moments after McCain advisers put out word that McCain had known of Bristol Palin's pregnancy, the Anchorage Daily News revealed (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/report_palins_spokesperson_did.php) that Palin's own spokesperson hadn't known about it only two days ago.

* A senior McCain adviser at the Republican convention was forced into the rather embarrassing position of arguing (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/report_palins_spokesperson_did.php) that McCain had known about the pregnancy "last week" -- without saying what day last week he knew about it.

* It came out (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/212167.php) that Republican lawyers are up in Alaska vetting Palin -- now, more than 72 hours after it was announced that she'd been picked.

* Palin lawyered up (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/palin_hires_lawyer_for_trooper.php) in relation to the trooper-gate probe in Alaska -- a move that ensures far more serious attention to the story from the major news orgs.

What else will come out today? After all, there are still six hours left until September 2nd...

I also learned...

* Palin was almost recalled as a Mayor (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-schmeltzer/palin-almost-recalled-as_b_122769.html)

* She directed fund raising (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/01/palin_was_a_director_of_embatt.html) for indicted Senator Ted Stevens 527 group

* She called Iraq a war for oil (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/31/palin-iraq-is-a-war-for-oil/)

* The Alaska National Guard admitted Palin plays no role (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/31/alaska-national-guard-gen_n_122860.html) in national defense activities

* She wasn't aware that the "under god" in pledge of allegiance wasn't added until 50 years ago (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/01/palins-weak-grasp-on-history/).

* Doesn't believe (http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/sarah_palin_vp/2008/08/29/126139.html) in any man-made causes for Global Warming.

And I don't know what to make of headlines like; "Top Republican Governor Has Heard No Talk Of Removing Palin From The Ticket (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/01/top-republican-governor-h_n_123057.html)"...



Anyone think McCain could really end up asking for a do-over on this, ala Harriet Miers???

[rideit]

Politics is fun today!

[David Witherspoon]

Anyone think McCain could really end up asking for a do-over on this, ala Harriet Miers???
When I first heard that suggestion, my response was (after "huh?) "No way. McCain has put a gun to his head, but he ain't gonna pull the trigger."

Now ... hell I don't know. The guy's off his rocker.

I don't want him anywhere near that red button (http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=9644).

[kkerley33]

She got 115,000 votes to win the Alaskan Governor gig. There were over 80,000 people at the last night of the DNC. Not really apples to apples there.

Truth, (aka opinions)

Your arguments just doesn't fly here. In all reality, Palin has more credentials to run this country than Obama, Biden or McCain.

Palin has been the Chief Executive for two different constintuencies now. Obama, McCain and Biden have been the Chief Executive for 0. Granted, they may not be large cities or populated states...but she is the Chief Executive of the Largest State and is commander in chief of one of the best trained and most stragically important National Guards.

While Obama, McCain and Biden have been representing their constituencies and trying to bring Money back to their states...Palin has been cutting budgets and signing laws that effect the lives of citizens. While Obama, McCain and Biden can only vote on laws and participate in debates...Palin can and has used executive powers to enforce laws, and make changes.

So yes 2 years as Governor gives more credentials than 4 years as a Junior Senator.

Not to Mention...Clinton's only credentials were that he was governor a state with poor education system and a huge deficit...and he didn't screw this country up to much.

KAK

[Rideski]

Here's the latest gossip... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOxR7rTYuSI&feature=related)

[1080Rider]

Here's the latest gossip... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOxR7rTYuSI&feature=related)

What in the hell was that??? I watched the whole thing thinking something would happen... funny shiz!

[The Dad]

One theory -- plausible, I think -- is that McCain figured he'd throw her out there, and if the vetting means he has to drop her, he gets to ask Lieberman or Ridge, i.e., to do what he wanted to do in the first place.

[Rubicon]

So if everyone in Manhattan has 3 times the average U.S. income, that will have no effect on locals or vacationers in Colorado or Utah?

I'm sure it does have an effect. But I have not seen hard data that indicates that that effect is negative or to what extent that effect is measurable. I think someone would be hard pressed to show that people in Colorado or Utah are harmed by folks in NY having an income 3x the national average. If you have hard data that indicates that I would very much be interested in seeing it.



Anyway, the response is expected, as is the disavowal of current economic indicators.


The only thing I disavow is the implication that the current slowdown in the growth of our economy(and all the things that lead to, and are affected by it) is something that any governing body needs to interfere with. Markets have to breath in order to be healthy. Let the economy breath.

As an aside I have to mention that my standard of living is better than it was ten years ago and ten years ago it was better than it was twenty years ago. This is true for most people I know and I think it is true for most Americans. If my standard of living is 2x better than it was 20 years ago and somebody else's standard of living is 5x better than it was 20 years ago, their success in no way harms me. I am happy for them.

Yes, they have a larger slice of the pie than I do but the pie is growing larger every year. Our economy is not a zero sum game. Other peoples success does not harm me. Wealth is being created as our economy grows. Because of this, class envy is entirely misplaced.

[Powow]

Truth, (aka opinions)

Your arguments just doesn't fly here. In all reality, Palin has more credentials to run this country than Obama, Biden or McCain.

Palin has been the Chief Executive for two different constintuencies now. Obama, McCain and Biden have been the Chief Executive for 0. Granted, they may not be large cities or populated states...but she is the Chief Executive of the Largest State and is commander in chief of one of the best trained and most stragically important National Guards.

While Obama, McCain and Biden have been representing their constituencies and trying to bring Money back to their states...Palin has been cutting budgets and signing laws that effect the lives of citizens. While Obama, McCain and Biden can only vote on laws and participate in debates...Palin can and has used executive powers to enforce laws, and make changes.

So yes 2 years as Governor gives more credentials than 4 years as a Junior Senator.

Not to Mention...Clinton's only credentials were that he was governor a state with poor education system and a huge deficit...and he didn't screw this country up to much.

KAK
Obama has run a near flawless campaign for 18 months with almost nothing to start with (like you say, a junior senator), to do that he had to surround himself with people that are smart and know what they are doing.

The bush administration does NOT do that, and we end up with iraq (rumsfeld), katrina (michael brown), and smaller 'incidents' like problems with the FDA, harriet miers, etc. Virtually every serious disaster we've had in the last 7 years can be traced back to some dipshit crony that doesn't know what they are doing.

McCain choosing palin is another pick in a long line of shitty unqualified people doing jobs they aren't capable of doing. SHE HERSELF even said she doesn't even know what the VP does.

[toast2266]

Truth, (aka opinions)

Your arguments just doesn't fly here. In all reality, Palin has more credentials to run this country than Obama, Biden or McCain.

Palin has been the Chief Executive for two different constintuencies now. Obama, McCain and Biden have been the Chief Executive for 0. Granted, they may not be large cities or populated states...but she is the Chief Executive of the Largest State and is commander in chief of one of the best trained and most stragically important National Guards.

While Obama, McCain and Biden have been representing their constituencies and trying to bring Money back to their states...Palin has been cutting budgets and signing laws that effect the lives of citizens. While Obama, McCain and Biden can only vote on laws and participate in debates...Palin can and has used executive powers to enforce laws, and make changes.

So yes 2 years as Governor gives more credentials than 4 years as a Junior Senator.

Not to Mention...Clinton's only credentials were that he was governor a state with poor education system and a huge deficit...and he didn't screw this country up to much.

KAK

Yeah, I mean really, its like she's almost over qualified for the position.

2 years as governor of Alaska = suck it Obama.













Of all the craptacular arguments supporting this woman, this might be the worst one.

[Buster Highmen]

I'm sure it does have an effect. But I have not seen hard data that indicates that that effect is negative or to what extent that effect is measurable. I think someone would be hard pressed to show that people in Colorado or Utah are harmed by folks in NY having an income 3x the national average. If you have hard data that indicates that I would very much be interested in seeing it.

It's all around you. The gini index for example is hard data that indicates that financial resources are increasingly in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Real estate inflation in resort towns, the cost of living in those places in general. And while it's probably not important to you, the cost of education is skyrocketing.

If you don't want to see it, you're not going to.


The only thing I disavow is the implication that the current slowdown in the growth of our economy(and all the things that lead to, and are affected by it) is something that any governing body needs to interfere with. Markets have to breath in order to be healthy. Let the economy breath.

Government can and does have a place in the regulation of the economy. Previous eras of deregulation such as in the 1920s clearly show what happens.

It exhaled quite well in 1933. As a result antitrust legislation and banking regulations worked well to provide a stable economy.



As an aside I have to mention that my standard of living is better than it was ten years ago and ten years ago it was better than it was twenty years ago. This is true for most people I know and I think it is true for most Americans. If my standard of living is 2x better than it was 20 years ago and somebody else's standard of living is 5x better than it was 20 years ago, their success in no way harms me. I am happy for them.

In some regards that's a moot point. If someone is reasonbly frugal and works, their standard of living will improve. But part of that issue has to do with debt. Has your debt gone down? Most people's hasn't. And while that's largely their responsibility, the government can provide mechanisms and regulations that can and should limit the levels of debt into which dummy can put themselves.


Yes, they have a larger slice of the pie than I do but the pie is growing larger every year. Our economy is not a zero sum game. Other peoples success does not harm me. Wealth is being created as our economy grows. Because of this, class envy is entirely misplaced.

That statement flies completely in the face of the data presented and of economic history. I can't pull your head out if you want to keep it in there.

[timvwcom]

Truth, (aka opinions)

Your arguments just doesn't fly here. In all reality, Palin has more credentials to run this country than Obama, Biden or McCain.

Palin has been the Chief Executive for two different constintuencies now. Obama, McCain and Biden have been the Chief Executive for 0. Granted, they may not be large cities or populated states...but she is the Chief Executive of the Largest State and is commander in chief of one of the best trained and most stragically important National Guards.

While Obama, McCain and Biden have been representing their constituencies and trying to bring Money back to their states...Palin has been cutting budgets and signing laws that effect the lives of citizens. While Obama, McCain and Biden can only vote on laws and participate in debates...Palin can and has used executive powers to enforce laws, and make changes.

So yes 2 years as Governor gives more credentials than 4 years as a Junior Senator.

Not to Mention...Clinton's only credentials were that he was governor a state with poor education system and a huge deficit...and he didn't screw this country up to much.

KAK

oooohhhh. mmmmyyyyy. gggggooooodddd...

So, you seriously are claiming that someone who has no fucking idea how ANY of our Federal Government works (she's admitted basically this more than once), is more qualified to be President than anyone who has been in Congress or the Senate for years or even decades and observed first hand and close up the workings of our governance system? Really???

Using YOUR "rules" here;


-someone who can filet a fish they've caught has more qualifications to do human surgery than an apprentice surgeon who has observed and/or assisted in dozens or hundreds of surgeries but has yet to be in "command" of one by himself?

-if I've designed and built my kids a backyard playhouse, I am more capable of being in charge of the design and building of the worlds tallest building than someone who was first in their class obtaining structural engineering and business management degrees from prestigious universities but perhaps yet to be the lead person in a large commercial build?

-backyard Estes rocketry experience makes one qualified to run fucking NASA???

Dude, it's yer own issue if you've been drinking the Jim Jones kool-aid of the Republican Party... but don't expect to bring that idiotic shit in here and get a pass from thinking people. :rolleyes2 :nonono2:

[gorms]

I served a term as the president of my colleges geology club..........
I believe that executive experience makes me qualified to lead the country.

Vote gorms for a better tomorrow.

[Tuckerman]

So yes 2 years as Governor gives more credentials than 4 years as a Junior Senator.


Thats more like 4 years of campaigning while being payed to be a Junior Senator. I guess that makes him a professional campaigner.

[timvwcom]

Anyone think McCain could really end up asking for a do-over on this, ala Harriet Miers???

Intrade started trading on this today (http://www.intrade.com/jsp/intrade/common/c_cd.jsp?conDetailID=638242&z=1220367319273). :tongue:

Was as high as 18 (18% bet she'll be withdrawn), hovered around 12, now around 10.


"Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee"
http://data.intrade.com/graphing/timeAndSalesChart.gif?contractId=638242&timePeriodType=LastDay&intradeChart=true&transBackground=true

[Adolf Allerbush]

Intrade started trading on this today (http://www.intrade.com/jsp/intrade/common/c_cd.jsp?conDetailID=638242&z=1220367319273). :tongue:

Was as high as 18 (18% bet she'll be withdrawn), hovered around 12, now around 10.


"Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee"
http://data.intrade.com/graphing/timeAndSalesChart.gif?contractId=638242&timePeriodType=LastDay&intradeChart=true&transBackground=true

The more I think about this the more I believe she'll step down instead of McCain actually dumping her....I'm thinking she'll say something about how it's a troubled time for her and her family and she feels it best to just continue being the gov. of AK...blah blah blah. Maybe McCain knew about the prego and thought "well, if shit hits the fan she'll just step down"?

[truth]

Truth, (aka opinions)

Your arguments just doesn't fly here. In all reality, Palin has more credentials to run this country than Obama, Biden or McCain.

Palin has been the Chief Executive for two different constintuencies now. Obama, McCain and Biden have been the Chief Executive for 0. Granted, they may not be large cities or populated states...but she is the Chief Executive of the Largest State and is commander in chief of one of the best trained and most stragically important National Guards.

While Obama, McCain and Biden have been representing their constituencies and trying to bring Money back to their states...Palin has been cutting budgets and signing laws that effect the lives of citizens. While Obama, McCain and Biden can only vote on laws and participate in debates...Palin can and has used executive powers to enforce laws, and make changes.

So yes 2 years as Governor gives more credentials than 4 years as a Junior Senator.

Not to Mention...Clinton's only credentials were that he was governor a state with poor education system and a huge deficit...and he didn't screw this country up to much.

KAK


Thanks for quoting the same crap every talking head on tv has spouted since the horrid selection was made. Anyone with common sense can sort that out. Her time as Mayor of Wasilla is a joke. She might as well have been the president of the student council. Do a little digging and you'll find she left that town worse off then she found it. Governing the 600,000 residents of the Great State of Alaska is a real gig but even there we can find issue with her true leadership role as it would relate to her being one heartbeat away from the Presidency. Until last week she'd only been to 3 states and prior to her term as Governor the only country she'd been to was Canada. Anyone that really believes that the experience she has in her very short time as a Governor holds a candle to representing states in Congress is a fool.

Arguing that Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton) could do it is also not a fair comparison. Clinton attended Greorgetown University, was an intern for Arkansas' Senator Fullbright, was Rhodes Scholar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholarship) and has a JD from Yale Law School. In comparison Palin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin) won the Miss Wasilla contest and was 2nd runner up in the Miss Alaska pageant. She then spent a year at Hawaii Pacific College before transferring to North Idaho College and eventually received a degree in journalism from the University of Idaho. They are not in any way equals.

Her politics which are pretty fuct up IMHO aside, she has no business being 2nd in line for the job of "Leader of the Free World".

Of course everything could change once the world learns that...


Sarah Palin used to wrestle kodiak bears in Alaskan bare knuckles fight clubs.

Sarah Palin once bagged a caribou by staring it down until it died.

Sarah Palin turned down a job as skipper of a Deadliest Catch boat because it wasn't challenging enough

Sarah Palin fishes salmon by convincing them it's in their interest to jump into the boat.

Sarah Palin once guided Santa's sleigh through an Alaskan blizzard with the light from her smile.

Chuck Norris wishes he was Sarah Palin trapped in a man's body.

Sarah Palin paid her way through school by hunting for yeti pelts with a slingshot.

Sarah Palin knows the location of DB Cooper's body because she threw him from the plane.

The Northern Lights are really just the reflection from Sarah Palin's eys.

The raw energy of Sarah Palin melts the Alaskan ice roads every spring.

We don't know who would win in a Chuck Norris - Sarah Palin cage match because they've never inventea cage that can hold Sarah Palin.

Alaska is the 49th state solely because they knew even before she was born that Sarah Palin would never finish last.

Global Warming doesn't kill polar bears. Sarah Palin does - usually with her bare hands.

Three of Sarah Palin's five kids came out sideways - she never flinched.

Sarah Palin's hotness is the largest single contributor to melting polar ice caps.

It's not raining in DC. Those are God's tears of joy that McCain picked Sarah Palin.

We don't know who would win in a Chuck Norris - Sarah Palin cage match bcause they've never invented a cage that can hold Sarah Palin

[Tuckerman]

I don't know but she is pretty fast for a woman of her age.

"Sarah Palin" (41 yr old female)
finished the 2005 Humpy's Classic Marathon in Anchorage, AK in a time of 3:59:36, giving her 15th overall woman.

[ColMan]

One theory -- plausible, I think -- is that McCain figured he'd throw her out there, and if the vetting means he has to drop her, he gets to ask Lieberman or Ridge, i.e., to do what he wanted to do in the first place.

I think it's very plausible. Given that Palin wasn't really vetted (the vetting process now being for them) I'm sure she has additional skeletons in her closet. My $$ is on her dropping out after the RNC, and Lieberman (McCain's first choice and close friend) coming in. This also avoids a very public fight between McCain and the base at the RNC.

[David Witherspoon]

I hope it plays out that way. I think you're giving McCain too much credit, but even if it plays out that way by accident, it'll send a clear message to the wingnut theocrats: drop dead.

They would benefit from forty years in a wilderness.
And I don't mean a wilderness with trees & streams - I mean a biblical wilderness.

[Tippster]

I don't know but she is pretty fast for a woman of her age.

"Sarah Palin" (41 yr old female)
finished the 2005 Humpy's Classic Marathon in Anchorage, AK in a time of 3:59:36, giving her 15th overall woman.

OMG!

Miss Congeniality AND a runner? Let's anoint her Queen of the Universe!

[TeleHoar]

Of course everything could change once the world learns that...


Sarah Palin used to wrestle kodiak bears in Alaskan bare knuckles fight clubs.

Sarah Palin once bagged a caribou by staring it down until it died.

Sarah Palin turned down a job as skipper of a Deadliest Catch boat because it wasn't challenging enough

Sarah Palin fishes salmon by convincing them it's in their interest to jump into the boat.

Sarah Palin once guided Santa's sleigh through an Alaskan blizzard with the light from her smile.

Chuck Norris wishes he was Sarah Palin trapped in a man's body.

Sarah Palin paid her way through school by hunting for yeti pelts with a slingshot.

Sarah Palin knows the location of DB Cooper's body because she threw him from the plane.

The Northern Lights are really just the reflection from Sarah Palin's eys.

The raw energy of Sarah Palin melts the Alaskan ice roads every spring.

We don't know who would win in a Chuck Norris - Sarah Palin cage match because they've never inventea cage that can hold Sarah Palin.

Alaska is the 49th state solely because they knew even before she was born that Sarah Palin would never finish last.

Global Warming doesn't kill polar bears. Sarah Palin does - usually with her bare hands.

Three of Sarah Palin's five kids came out sideways - she never flinched.

Sarah Palin's hotness is the largest single contributor to melting polar ice caps.

It's not raining in DC. Those are God's tears of joy that McCain picked Sarah Palin.

We don't know who would win in a Chuck Norris - Sarah Palin cage match bcause they've never invented a cage that can hold Sarah Palin

That is awesome. ^^^Spreading through the tubes like wildfires.

[This End Up]

Politcis aside, this is some funny chit:


I can either:
(1) Mindlessly gargle his cum because I'm so desperate for change, or

(2) Apply

[Tuckerman]

oooohhhh. mmmmyyyyy. gggggooooodddd...

more qualified to be President than anyone who has been in Congress or the Senate for years???

Using YOUR "rules" here;


Using your logic the share holder who works at 7-11 is more qualified to run the major corporation than the CEO because he votes on stuff every so often.


I guess your right she is not a Washington insider who needs change anyway.

[BSS]

Everyone wants the "new" brand of change in the White House, but it's only credible as change if it's the same old bunch of schmucks selling it to them.

Very interesting.

[The AD]

Given that Palin wasn't really vetted (the vetting process now being for them)

What's the deal lately with this word "vet?" Up until a year ago I thought it was only shorthand for veterinarian. I swear it's one of these terms that just kind of came out of nowhere.

[timvwcom]

Using your logic the share holder who works at 7-11 is more qualified to run the major corporation than the CEO because he votes on stuff every so often.

I guess your right she is not a Washington insider who needs change anyway.

Ummm... you didn't seem to grasp my point, let me try again using part of your example here.

I am arguing that a young bright senior level manager who graduated at the top of their class from acclaimed universities and graduate schools PLUS has the experience of working for 7/11 corporate for years, dealing specifically with the entire management team and the issues that are important to 7/11 as a company nationally and globally (even though he/she many not have specific experience as the top-dog of an entire organization before) >>> might be a better choice for a new CEO of the 7/11 Corporation than say, someone with a journalism degree and who is head manager of a local 7/11 store... from Alaska.

Not my favorite example, but I think it works?

[bklyn]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/08/31/gal_palin-tshirt.jpg
Her economic policy has an optimistic viewpoint.

[From_the_NEK]

What's the deal lately with this word "vet?" Up until a year ago I thought it was only shorthand for veterinarian.

Is also short for veteran (...see John McCain)

[The Dad]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/08/31/gal_palin-tshirt.jpg
Her economic policy has an optimistic viewpoint.

Perky, perhaps?

[jon gaper]

supported by saudi money men for 20+ years...........americas chickens have come home to roost (rev wright)

[Viva]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Soonerpsycho/spfarksandpics/palindrillheredrillnow.jpg

[hutash]

What's the deal lately with this word "vet?" Up until a year ago I thought it was only shorthand for veterinarian. I swear it's one of these terms that just kind of came out of nowhere.

It has been around for a very long time, learn to read, it will help:fm:

I thought McCain's choice was bad from the start, but the only logic I could find in it was that he would dump her (or more likely she would back out), and he would have gain support from the far right, and still get his pick. I hope the republicans are smart enough for this. Yet, if this is true, it shows they are nothing but political operatives like all the rest, and not the true reforms they claim to be. Same old same old.

Either way Palin is a bad choice.

[mrw]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Soonerpsycho/spfarksandpics/palindrillheredrillnow.jpg

Damn, if that was really her bod, I'd vote her ass President

[The AD]

It has been around for a very long time, learn to read, it will help:fm:

I'm sure it's been around, but I contend that very few people used it until just recently. Now everyone's spouting it out like they've been using it for years.

[Adolf Allerbush]

but what if you're a military veteran that is a veteran veterinarian? this is blowing my mind

[Viva]

but what if you're a military veteran that is a veteran veterinarian? this is blowing my mind

Especially one who's been fully vetted.

[rideit]

http://www.ponyinarope.com/images/prince.jpg

[hutash]

I'm sure it's been around, but I contend that very few people used it until just recently. Now everyone's spouting it out like they've been using it for years.

It's like blue volkswagens, you probably don't think there are very common, but now that I mention it, you will see twelve of them the next time you are out. The term has been around for years, and is certainly used a lot every four years, but I haven't noticed a change. But then again, I see a lot of blue VWs.:eek:

[The AD]

The term has been around for years, and is certainly used a lot every four years

So it's sorta like "pundit." You really only hear it when there's an election going on.

[telebobski]

First, I'm sure you are a great guy.

But acting like you don't know very much about Obama and want to learn enough to make a decision, followed by hints in your summaries and further critical statements that show you had clearly ALREADY formed an opinion (as proven by yer quote above), makes it look like you were faking your ignorance in the first place = concern troll. :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:

I don't think anyone needs to share my views of anything, but the process you used to introduce your talking points felt less than honest to me IMHO. But I don't know anything, and also... who cares what I think! :)

And I'm sure you are a nice guy too Tim, although maybe in this case a bit of a condescending douchebag.

For the record, I didn't know much about Obama because at the time I thought he speaks only in broad goals, not execution. I knew about his health care plan from before - not a whole lot different than Kerry's 4 yrs ago, but it's better (IMHO) than McCain's. Then Tippster told me I could find out all the necessary specifics from his acceptance speech. So I watched it - went back in a couple of places too, just to make sure I heard him right. I laid out what I heard back around page 7 and asked a simple question, "what did I miss?" So far, nobody's brought up anything except questions about my motives. So, after watching all 45 minutes AND reviewing his website for about an hour - I am better informed but still think he speaks in broad generalities and lacks any substantial plans to accomplish his objectives. And since he has spent so much of his career campaigning for office instead of being in one, there isn't much of a track record to go on.

Like TruckeeLocal sez, it's a little ironic that we have to accept BO on faith and McCain on observation. But then, I'm not a member of the "I Blindly Spread My Buttcheeks 4 Obama" contingent.

And for the record, I'm not happy with McCain either.

[TruckeeLocal]

Like TruckeeLocal sez, it's a little ironic that we have to accept BO on faith and McCain on observation. But then, I'm not a member of the "I Blindly Spread My Buttcheeks 4 Obama" contingent.

And for the record, I'm not happy with McCain either.
Given that you quoted me I have to say that I think that this time we have a high-quality problem of getting to choose from two interesting candidates (one only has to look back to Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore and compare), but will say that McCain seems to have made a wonky choice for VP. Then again a governer of a US State is a pretty lofty office which folks here are desperately trying to minimize. That the two candidates are judged by incompatible criteria is not terribly relevant. It's the old vote with your head/vote with your heart dichotomy.

[Tippster]

And I'm sure you are a nice guy too Tim, although maybe in this case a bit of a condescending douchebag.

For the record, I didn't know much about Obama because at the time I thought he speaks only in broad goals, not execution. I knew about his health care plan from before - not a whole lot different than Kerry's 4 yrs ago, but it's better (IMHO) than McCain's. Then Tippster told me I could find out all the necessary specifics from his acceptance speech. So I watched it - went back in a couple of places too, just to make sure I heard him right. I laid out what I heard back around page 7 and asked a simple question, "what did I miss?" So far, nobody's brought up anything except questions about my motives. So, after watching all 45 minutes AND reviewing his website for about an hour - I am better informed but still think he speaks in broad generalities and lacks any substantial plans to accomplish his objectives. And since he has spent so much of his career campaigning for office instead of being in one, there isn't much of a track record to go on.

Like TruckeeLocal sez, it's a little ironic that we have to accept BO on faith and McCain on observation. But then, I'm not a member of the "I Blindly Spread My Buttcheeks 4 Obama" contingent.

And for the record, I'm not happy with McCain either.

Seems to me that laid out the main points of his platform pretty clearly. Like I said, what the hell do you want, some kind of itemized list with bullets? For that you need to look beyond the speeches (time limit) and actually log onto his website. They're there for the reading.

You still haven't answered how McCain has been any more forthcoming.

[P_McPoser]

He should have picked Napolitano. I'd have loved that.

[13]

if mccain had said "fuck off" to the religious core of the GOP and gone with lieberman (or ridge), i would have bought into his "maverick" image a little. now? it looks like he caved to pressure from the religious right and picked their new darling palin over pawlenty and romney.

whiskey tango foxtrot!

ya know, that's not exactly the kind of decision making i'd like to see in a president, especially as commander-in-chief of the armed forces among other things.

[The Dad]

FWIW, I spread my cheeks with open eyes, but that could just be me.

Bob, if there's something you want more specific information on, maybe you'll find it in the Issues section of the campaign website (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/).

I don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. But I think he's the best candidate fielded by a major party in a damned long time, partially because he's the best public speaker I've heard in my lifetime. And unlike those who might arguably give him a run for his money -- Reagan, for instance -- he actually writes his own speeches.

Is that a guarantee of authenticity or some such bullshit? Of course not. But it's a sign that there's actually a mind in there. And I, for one, happen to find that refreshing.

What else do we know about him? Well, he wasn't elected president of Harvard Law Review because he was the smartest kid in the room, but because he was the only candidate who could bring together the lefties (Critical Legal Studies adherents, or Crits) and the righties (Federalist Society members) to put out the fucking magazine. He apparently continued to have a strong history of bringing people together to get shit done in the Illinois legislature, and in the Senate as well.

Is that the same as running the federal government? Of course not. But none of these guys have done anything like that in their lives, and frankly neither did their predecessors. Some have done better than others. I think he'd do better than most.

Some of that is based on his policies, some on his temperament, some on his history, some on what we've seen of his decision-making processes (he appears to like to get the people who really are opposing experts on an issue to give him their best shot, and then figures out what's valuable from each), and some on his ability to speak to a crowd about adult subjects without either condescending or pandering. You'll make up your own mind.

But don't claim it's because you can't figure out where he stands on the issues that matter to you, or how he proposes to achieve his goals. This is the internet age. It's not hard to find. You just have to know which pipe to look in.

[Helldawg]

Just curious, is there anyone here who will admit to not planning to vote for O, solely because of skin color?

[timvwcom]

And I'm sure you are a nice guy too Tim, although maybe in this case a bit of a condescending douchebag.

In this case where I did a brazen call out (which isn't my normal MO - ask anybody around here) maybe I WAS a douchebag? :redface:

Though, I do find it interesting that you in essence somewhat confirmed my suspicions in the rest of your post here; You start out claiming "I didn't know much about Obama..." at the beginning then move thru that you "still think he speaks in broad generalities and lacks any substantial plans to accomplish his objectives..." and end with the biting 'I'm not a member of the "I Blindly Spread My Buttcheeks 4 Obama" contingent.' phrase. It was this type of later revelations that tripped my "faux initial inquisitive stance" meter to begin with, and keeps it buzzing still.

Oh, and I still think you are probably a great guy... In fact, based on your civil discourse here, I know it! :yourock:


For the record, I didn't know much about Obama because at the time I thought he speaks only in broad goals, not execution. I knew about his health care plan from before - not a whole lot different than Kerry's 4 yrs ago, but it's better (IMHO) than McCain's. Then Tippster told me I could find out all the necessary specifics from his acceptance speech. So I watched it - went back in a couple of places too, just to make sure I heard him right. I laid out what I heard back around page 7 and asked a simple question, "what did I miss?" So far, nobody's brought up anything except questions about my motives. So, after watching all 45 minutes AND reviewing his website for about an hour - I am better informed but still think he speaks in broad generalities and lacks any substantial plans to accomplish his objectives. And since he has spent so much of his career campaigning for office instead of being in one, there isn't much of a track record to go on.

Like TruckeeLocal sez, it's a little ironic that we have to accept BO on faith and McCain on observation. But then, I'm not a member of the "I Blindly Spread My Buttcheeks 4 Obama" contingent.

And for the record, I'm not happy with McCain either.

[hutash]

Bob, if there's something you want more specific information on, maybe you'll find it in the Issues section of the campaign website (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/).




Thanks for the link, I have been meaning to go there and read it. Here is the equivalent McCain page for the lazy people like me...http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/

[Tuckerman]

Just curious, is there anyone here who will admit to not planning to vote for O, solely because of skin color?

Also is there anyone here who will admit to not planning to vote for M, solely because she is a woman?

[Crud's Uncle]

This is an absurd argument. Lieberman or Ridge would have only appealed to those that are not going to vote for McCain.

McCain knew he had a problem. The grass roots traditional values republicans were not excited. Many were not going to vote for him. Many were only going to vote because the alternative is an ultra-liberal white American hating Marxist. Either way, there was a lack of enthusiasm. Winning campaigns require enthusiastic support. Palin gives him that support.
if mccain had said "fuck off" to the religious core of the GOP and gone with lieberman (or ridge), i would have bought into his "maverick" image a little. now? it looks like he caved to pressure from the religious right and picked their new darling palin over pawlenty and romney.

whiskey tango foxtrot!

ya know, that's not exactly the kind of decision making i'd like to see in a president, especially as commander-in-chief of the armed forces among other things.

[sftc]

So everyone is screaming that people should leave the daughter and her boyfriend alone, but on CNN they just showed Palin's family arriving at the Minneapolis airport and they were letting the media have a big happy family media opportunity. Guess who was right in the middle of the big dysfunctional mess? The pregnant teenage baby momma and her boyfriend.

WTF? So Palin and McCain are saying "leave them alone, but let us parade them around and show them off as poster kids for irresponsible teenage sex"?

[13]

uncle crud -- i was on the fence until mccain picked palin. i know of others that were too.

sftc -- relax, it was just a photo op. no biggie.

[Buster Highmen]

.. the alternative is an ultra-liberal white American hating Marxist.
Snurk...now c'mon, isn't this just a teensy bit of hysterial hyperbole?

[truth]

You NEED to see this:

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and finally, "We will fight for you, we will die for you, we will kill for you"
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