If you were Tiger what graft would you get?

[FredsTrees]

All right kids its time to put your cards on the table. Quit the friggin speculation and tell me today what graft you would get given what we all know with a one sentence explanation.

Our patient is Tiger Woods, this will be his forth Knee surgery. He torques the crap out of his left ACL on his turn. Selecting the wrong graft would doom him all of us from not seeing the Champ come back and Break Jack's record.

He needs an iron clad ACL, No ROM loss and is willing to sit out 10 months or so.

Choices are Patella Opposite or Same
Hamstring
Cadaver
Pig Lig

I"ll Start.

Patella Opposite, do the accellerated rehab, but dont rush back to play. That way he will be ready for the 2009 Masters. (Although i bet he will do Patellla same)

[splat]

I think he should live up to his name and get a lig from a fukkin tiger.

[Woodlandclown]

he needs to go directly to dr. mark of course!

[drmark]

Tiger's doctor is my my friiend Tom Rosenberg from Park City. While I haven't spoke with Tom about it, Tom usually uses the autogenous patella tendon.

[MTslackcountry]

Tiger's doctor is my my friiend Tom Rosenberg from Park City. While I haven't spoke with Tom about it, Tom usually uses the autogenous patella tendon.

You have not answered the question. Care to enlighten us.

[PNWbrit]

Couldn't he just use one of those little electric cart things?

[Jim S]

I think he should live up to his name and get a lig from a fukkin tiger.

I think that's brilliant. And I'm not kidding.


I have a cryofrozen graft from a yellow-bellied sap sucker in case I tear something in the future.

[drmark]

Since I know a little bit about this case, it isn't ethical for me to discuss it.

[Cal_skier]

Without a doubt, he will use auto BTB patellar tendon from the SAME knee, just like most other pro athletes do (if possible).

[Jim S]

I know people who know people who know that while he was out, they harvest Splat's good ACL for Tiger's injured knee.

[Cal_skier]

I know people who know people who know that while he was out, they harvest Splat's good ACL for Tiger's injured knee.

I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to go allograft before deciding to open up his other good knee for a graft. Contrary to popular belief, several pro athletes have gone this route (allograft). Since his left patellar tendon is still pristine, I would guess he decides to have a graft from there.

[Woodlandclown]

I know people who know people who know that while he was out, they harvest Splat's good ACL for Tiger's injured knee.

i think tigers people scoped out the beefy hamstring and purposely made splat fall to begin with. this is obviously a conspiracy.

[skiingsamurai]

hijack/ jong:
do they actually use animal (pig) ligaments?

/jong hijack

[FredsTrees]

hijack/ jong:
do they actually use animal (pig) ligaments?

/jong hijack

The pig lig is in trials, I defer to Dr. Mark obviously, but the stone clinic is doing trials in SF, CA....dont know much about it....

I aslo read that tiger had cysts removed in 2 previous surgeries in his knees? What is that all about........

[splat]

You guys are killin it. And me. As always... heh.

Gotta wonder what he'd pay for a good tiger lig, though, seein as how he's one rich mofo.
Don't tell anyone in India....

[FredsTrees]

You guys are killin it. And me. As always... heh.

Gotta wonder what he'd pay for a good tiger lig, though, seein as how he's one rich mofo.
Don't tell anyone in India....

Tig Lig, option 5.

[Jim S]

hijack/ jong:
do they actually use animal (pig) ligaments?

/jong hijack

Absolutely and with great success. My ACL autograft used a pig ligament and it's held up wonderfully.



Knock on wood





.

[splat]

yur on a roll, sapsucker.

[FredsTrees]

Pig Lig Interview with Dr. Stone, May 2001, from knee.com...
How is the pig tissue graft harvested?


After the pig is used for meat, the heart valve is sent off the folks who use pig heart vales. We then obtain the knees, and harvest the patellar tendon with bone just as we would from human. We take that out and use enzymatic techniques to remove the antigens. Then, we sterilize the tissue. The pig bone-patellar tendon-bone is the graft that would be used to rebuild someone’s ACL. The beauty of it is that the tissue is as strong as that of an eighteen year old. So even if you are forty or fifty and you have ruptured your cruciate ligament, rather than using your own tissue, you would be able to get strong young healthy and sterile tissue. Additionally, if we were to hand this graft to an orthopedic surgeon and not tell him if it was a human’s tissue or a pig’s tissue he wouldn’t be able to tell the difference—the tissue is very similar.


Is it the same length as a human ACL?


Yes, we can vary the length, depending on the size of the pig.


How have the advances in technology helped your research and you practice?


For us, advances in technology have been helpful both on the tissue treatment side and the implantation side. We’ve been able to harness some of these biochemical treatments in treating pig tissues, in order to make them transplantable, in order to make better scaffolds, which is what we used when we designed the meniscus scaffold. We’ve also used advances in instrumentation in order to make the surgery that we use for people’s knees less painful, through smaller holes, and done virtually completely as an outpatient.

[drmark]

a very wise professor at my medical school always told me to be two fads behind to avoid complications that have never been seen before. Who knows what diseases one can get from a pig ligament?
I know that I dont

[FredsTrees]

All right ACL fans, Tiger had his press conference yesterday.

He announced he had a contra-lateral hamstring graft. Basically he chose a hamstring graft ligament from the opposite leg.

I had a opposite leg patella graft on 2/25/08 (Dr. Mark), never heard of it being done with a hamstring, perhaps dr. rosenberg is more comfortable with this given his experience. The only other Dr' s i know of doing opposite leg grafts are Dr. Mark and Dr. Shelbourne, course they do it with the patella graft. If your nice enough i am sure dr mark might comment.

Splat, if you could hold the F bombs off perhaps dr mark will say what he knows about the procedure...

[Cal_skier]

All right ACL fans, Tiger had his press conference yesterday.

He announced he had a contra-lateral hamstring graft. Basically he chose a hamstring graft ligament from the opposite leg.

I had a opposite leg patella graft on 2/25/08 (Dr. Mark), never heard of it being done with a hamstring, perhaps dr. rosenberg is more comfortable with this given his experience. The only other Dr' s i know of doing opposite leg grafts are Dr. Mark and Dr. Shelbourne, course they do it with the patella graft. If your nice enough i am sure dr mark might comment.

Splat, if you could hold the F bombs off perhaps dr mark will say what he knows about the procedure...

Dr Mark has stated many times that the hamstring grafts are the worse auto-grafts due to the high failure rates. He doesn't like nor recommend them. Well, that's what Tiger got. In addition, Tiger is on crutches AND a brace for 3 weeks to keep weight off that left leg. Oddly enough, that also goes against Dr Mark's choice of rehab. He recommends immediate weight bearing, AND he also hates braces. Tiger will also be out for about 8 months minimum, not the 4 months that Dr Mark would allow. All in all, it looks like Tiger got EVERYTHING that Dr Mark doesn't like. It would be really interesting to hear his opinions on Tiger's choice for ACL reconstruction.

[Woodlandclown]

It would be really interesting to hear his opinions on Tiger's choice for ACL reconstruction.

meh - i think we have all heard his opinions.

[FredsTrees]

meh - i think we have all heard his opinions.

I realize you all are on the sour about Dr. Mark, but the reason i posted about the contra lateral hamstring graft is mostly because it has never been mentioned before by ANYONE anywhere that i know of, since i have become a graft geek it might be cool to hear what he thinks. i think he is done, no more free advice. Now you can all go back to cursing at one another.

the double bundle hamstring graft technique was pitched to me by both a US Ski Team Doctor and a top local surgeon here in Philly, so this is not new, however they wanted to do it on the same leg. Tiger had cartilage issues, so there is no doubt that this contributed to the issue of crutches.

There is a lot of logic to grafting from the opposite leg. You rehab both legs at once. If there is problems with the donor site from the same knee you can go opposite as well.

Any vulgarities to add?

[Cal_skier]

meh - i think we have all heard his opinions.

I was curious to see if he was going to bash Tiger and Dr Rosenberg in public.

[Woodlandclown]

I realize you all are on the sour about Dr. Mark, but the reason i posted about the contra lateral hamstring graft is mostly because it has never been mentioned before by ANYONE anywhere that i know of, since i have become a graft geek it might be cool to hear what he thinks. i think he is done, no more free advice. Now you can all go back to cursing at one another.

the double bundle hamstring graft technique was pitched to me by both a US Ski Team Doctor and a top local surgeon here in Philly, so this is not new, however they wanted to do it on the same leg. Tiger had cartilage issues, so there is no doubt that this contributed to the issue of crutches.

There is a lot of logic to grafting from the opposite leg. You rehab both legs at once. If there is problems with the donor site from the same knee you can go opposite as well.

Any vulgarities to add?

yes - if you are so curious about his opinions, PM the fucker, you graft geek!

[TahoeAk1]

Not to get into a disrotation with you Fred, but I beg to differ on your US ski team guy.

The head US Alpine ski team doctor is here in Tahoe and could only roll his eyes on the concept when asked about it.

The double bundle is not tried and trued and has to many bolts and screws to go with it. It actually is very new in the last 2 years or so and is still an experiment. Aside from the guy in Pittsburg whom you live next to, the Stone clinic in San Fran is also experimenting with it to any of those whom wish to be a gini pig.

Tiger received the basic Hammstring graph...Not the double bundle BS graph with nuts and bolts....and as you read further about his graph, that was decided due to his own swing and did not want to go near his own pattella in the event he ever had to do this again later on in life. The Hamstring in golf does not play into much of anything except walking from one hole to another....Check out usga.com for that one...

For Tiger being a golfer and NOT a skier, however he does ski, his own hammy is a great choice for him. Im sure he did not want to risk rejection with the ALLO graph like many of us have, myself included, however low the risk may be. Thats a topic that has already been hashed over to much.

You are one of the few here that had Drmark and I am starting to think by all of your posts your guys are in cahoots with one another.

Sorry man, thats just how I feel.

I concur with most of us here and started the most recent thread about Drmark and his time....whatever.... He and his strong BS opinions are out..thankfully...at least I hope so....I personally dont think he much good to say about anything, free advice or not....

Lets all avoid the vulgarites...it really is BS from all of us...

As mentioned in my prior posts ( I just cant help it here) Why are they your trees fred? There are not many of them in Philly to claim all of them.....

[splat]

Yeah, I was talking with Isaiah and Dr. Orr today about Tiger's double bundle. Isaiah referred to it as a translateral, I believe, due to the hammy coming off the other leg. The Doc was curious about the screw arrangement. Dr. Orr doesn't say much, he just kicks ass in the operating room. This is the guy skiers like McConkey and Rahlves go to. He's the real thang. I feel honored to have him work on my knee.

[FredsTrees]

Not to get into a disrotation with you Fred, but I beg to differ on your US ski team guy.

The head US Alpine ski team doctor is here in Tahoe and could only roll his eyes on the concept when asked about it.

The double bundle is not tried and trued and has to many bolts and screws to go with it. It actually is very new in the last 2 years or so and is still an experiment. Aside from the guy in Pittsburg whom you live next to, the Stone clinic in San Fran is also experimenting with it to any of those whom wish to be a gini pig.

Tiger received the basic Hammstring graph...Not the double bundle BS graph with nuts and bolts....and as you read further about his graph, that was decided due to his own swing and did not want to go near his own pattella in the event he ever had to do this again later on in life. The Hamstring in golf does not play into much of anything except walking from one hole to another....Check out usga.com for that one...

For Tiger being a golfer and NOT a skier, however he does ski, his own hammy is a great choice for him. Im sure he did not want to risk rejection with the ALLO graph like many of us have, myself included, however low the risk may be. Thats a topic that has already been hashed over to much.

You are one of the few here that had Drmark and I am starting to think by all of your posts your guys are in cahoots with one another.

Sorry man, thats just how I feel.

I concur with most of us here and started the most recent thread about Drmark and his time....whatever.... He and his strong BS opinions are out..thankfully...at least I hope so....I personally dont think he much good to say about anything, free advice or not....

Lets all avoid the vulgarites...it really is BS from all of us...

As mentioned in my prior posts ( I just cant help it here) Why are they your trees fred? There are not many of them in Philly to claim all of them.....

I will reveal my special spot. Freds Trees are in Alta, Utah. If you get off the top of Germania and go thru the short mogul field at the top of the high traverse, bear left and face down the fall line thru the trees. It is a short shot, but steep. In thigh high or deeper it is my place of tree Nirvana. I beieve it is named after a long time patrol-er, not sure, but it is unmarked and not named on the map.

I washed dishes at Watsons shelter mid mountain for a season, this was one of my favorite spots.

[FredsTrees]

Not to get into a disrotation with you Fred, but I beg to differ on your US ski team guy.

The head US Alpine ski team doctor is here in Tahoe and could only roll his eyes on the concept when asked about it.

The double bundle is not tried and trued and has to many bolts and screws to go with it. It actually is very new in the last 2 years or so and is still an experiment. Aside from the guy in Pittsburg whom you live next to, the Stone clinic in San Fran is also experimenting with it to any of those whom wish to be a gini pig.

Tiger received the basic Hammstring graph...Not the double bundle BS graph with nuts and bolts....and as you read further about his graph, that was decided due to his own swing and did not want to go near his own pattella in the event he ever had to do this again later on in life. The Hamstring in golf does not play into much of anything except walking from one hole to another....Check out usga.com for that one...

For Tiger being a golfer and NOT a skier, however he does ski, his own hammy is a great choice for him. Im sure he did not want to risk rejection with the ALLO graph like many of us have, myself included, however low the risk may be. Thats a topic that has already been hashed over to much.

You are one of the few here that had Drmark and I am starting to think by all of your posts your guys are in cahoots with one another.

Sorry man, thats just how I feel.

I concur with most of us here and started the most recent thread about Drmark and his time....whatever.... He and his strong BS opinions are out..thankfully...at least I hope so....I personally dont think he much good to say about anything, free advice or not....

Lets all avoid the vulgarites...it really is BS from all of us...

As mentioned in my prior posts ( I just cant help it here) Why are they your trees fred? There are not many of them in Philly to claim all of them.....


I am probably wrong about about the double bundle.....And Dr. Mark is my doctor. I would let him cut open my knee and take 15k from my insurance company. Thats about it.

I think we all get vested in our choices of doctors, look at Splat feeling honored.

At the time I called Dr. Mark and he called me back right away and let me know what he thought. I had several sailing events i wanted to do this summer, i figured all tings being equal i wanted to go very aggressive and try to nail a home run with the rehab. I did.

Last weekend my team locked up the North American Circuit Championship. I was sailing 9 weeks after surgery. There is no way to have done this on a hamstring graft, it just wouldn't work. Dr. Mark and his trainer Ed were so confident if there work they told me the ONLY way to blow out my ACL again was to go to the top of my roof and jump. Get one of your doctors to tell you that with a straight face.

There is no secret that doc is answering questions and is offering his services. after all he does this for a living.

Tiger had a great doctor; results actually are more statistically linked to the quality and experience of your doctor than the graft choice. Mine happens to be the one you all ran off.

Whatever, can we move on already?

[FredsTrees]

Lets try something constructive.

Anyone want to pitch in their ACL graft choice?

Doctor, Location, TGR Member, Graft Preference

Dr. Orr, Lake Tahoe, CA, Splat, Hamstring.
Dr. Stone, San Francisco, CA, ???, Pig Lig, Hamstring, Double Bundle....
Dr. Andrews, Birmingham, AL, FredTrees (shoulder), Same Side, Patella
Dr. Sanders, Houston, TX, FredsTrees, Opposite Knee Patella
Dr. Rosenberg, Park city, Utah, Tiger Woods, Contra lateral Hammie

[GoNads]

Not going to lie, I don't know a single ski racer who went for a patellar tendon, let alone opposing knee patellar tendon. Almost all racers I know went for hamstring, or cadaver if they blew that too. (IE Christina lustenburger, Hudec, etc). But everyone else on the Canadian/BC team has gone for Hammy as far as I know.

[SkiBrain]

I went same knee patellar with my doc Kirk Lewis who works on many of the UC Davis athletes and Sacramento Monarchs women's basketball players. It seemed the best for me for various reasons and after consultation with others, but I'm too tired after a long frustrating day to explain why right now. As far as I know he doesn't have a favorite procedure, but provides pros and cons of each one and discusses with the patient what might be best for them based on their lifestyle, health, sports of choice, level of performance, timeline etc... One of my students who's on the lacrosse team had hers done by the same doctor using hamstring autograft. He has done thousands of all 3 of the main ones and told me he'd feel comfortable going with any one of those procedures. I brought up the same knee patellar option and he thought it wouldn't be a good idea. I'm only 2 weeks post-op so it's too early to know how things are going to progress, although so far I think they're going fine. Time will tell. I hope we made the right decision.

GoNads, how are you doing post-surgery by the way? (sorry for the thread hijack)

[GoNads]

Doing alright, 24hours post op. Not allowed to bend for 2 weeks to keep the site and clot intact and I'm crutch bound for 6 weeks, then cane for 2. Should be back to normalcy come sept/oct though, especially since I skied on it all winter, it can only get better. Just doing lots of upper and core to keep sane. Still trying to figure out how to walk the dog though...

[Craven Morehead]

I think he needs a white skin graft.
A man that dark should not be allowed to be this great at golf......a bastion of white supremacy.
IT'S PURE HOGWASH and God messed up.

[splat]

Does them black peoples scare you, Craven?

[Craven Morehead]

Does them black peoples scare you, Craven?

No, but theys put the fear in the hearts of my lovely blue-eyed blonde daughters. Specially when they starts thinkin' about their huge tallywhackers.



BTW:
Some facts came out about the Kobe case.......the girl finally admitted the first six inches WAS consensual.

[0BernhardFranz]

carcass pig might be very fine that is new synth also nice maybe best autohomologeously grown acl from his own stem cells if anyone got one ready bf

[0BernhardFranz]

Not to get into a disrotation with you Fred, but I beg to differ on your US ski team guy.

The head US Alpine ski team doctor is here in Tahoe and could only roll his eyes on the concept when asked about it.

The double bundle is not tried and trued and has to many bolts and screws to go with it. It actually is very new in the last 2 years or so and is still an experiment. Aside from the guy in Pittsburg whom you live next to, the Stone clinic in San Fran is also experimenting with it to any of those whom wish to be a gini pig.

Tiger received the basic Hammstring graph...Not the double bundle BS graph with nuts and bolts....and as you read further about his graph, that was decided due to his own swing and did not want to go near his own pattella in the event he ever had to do this again later on in life. The Hamstring in golf does not play into much of anything except walking from one hole to another....Check out usga.com for that one...

For Tiger being a golfer and NOT a skier, however he does ski, his own hammy is a great choice for him. Im sure he did not want to risk rejection with the ALLO graph like many of us have, myself included, however low the risk may be. Thats a topic that has already been hashed over to much.

You are one of the few here that had Drmark and I am starting to think by all of your posts your guys are in cahoots with one another.

Sorry man, thats just how I feel.

I concur with most of us here and started the most recent thread about Drmark and his time....whatever.... He and his strong BS opinions are out..thankfully...at least I hope so....I personally dont think he much good to say about anything, free advice or not....

Lets all avoid the vulgarites...it really is BS from all of us...

As mentioned in my prior posts ( I just cant help it here) Why are they your trees fred? There are not many of them in Philly to claim all of them.....

double keep you out of trouble !!!

[0BernhardFranz]

Dr Mark has stated many times that the hamstring grafts are the worse auto-grafts due to the high failure rates. He doesn't like nor recommend them. Well, that's what Tiger got. In addition, Tiger is on crutches AND a brace for 3 weeks to keep weight off that left leg. Oddly enough, that also goes against Dr Mark's choice of rehab. He recommends immediate weight bearing, AND he also hates braces. Tiger will also be out for about 8 months minimum, not the 4 months that Dr Mark would allow. All in all, it looks like Tiger got EVERYTHING that Dr Mark doesn't like. It would be really interesting to hear his opinions on Tiger's choice for ACL reconstruction.

weight bearing is good maybe as pressure on such cartilage tissue causes it to regrow spc if you add this memory killing supplement to it
the loops are better than screws i think if you take loops maybe go artificial all the way pig is strong very strong cadaver i think best call it allograft so it does not sond like in a zombie movie allo or auto it becomes your tissue the allo is transformed to your own tissue in no time tiger got ham as he uses so much force on it prob. but i hate any graft takers as you dont understand what the problem is you can´t just take a ligament or part of out without loosing its function plus another op pig might have been good as it is very strong

[0BernhardFranz]

Not going to lie, I don't know a single ski racer who went for a patellar tendon, let alone opposing knee patellar tendon. Almost all racers I know went for hamstring, or cadaver if they blew that too. (IE Christina lustenburger, Hudec, etc). But everyone else on the Canadian/BC team has gone for Hammy as far as I know.
has gone hammy is a strong trivialisation for loosing your legs function !!!
cadavers are FINE ! just more expensive so they are "out"