JONG bike cornering Q.

[tigerstripe40]

I was up at Sundance on Sunday riding the dirtbag, working on some bike skeelz, etc.

One thing I am trying to learn how to do is to nail corners at high speed without braking. I can do it at slower speeds without touching the brakes, but when I go faster, I lean both me and the bike a little more I get about 2/3 of the way through the turn then I have to just touch the brakes (not lock them up, just a touch the the levers is all) and I finish the turn.

If I don't touch the levers, I feel like I am going to pop out of the turn (or pop over the berm) and crash.

Is this deal psychological, or is there something I am missing?

[BushwackerinPA]

I am not a DH riders at all, but I have some experince with other forms of 'going' fast stuff.

IMO if you hitting the brakes in the middle of the turn trying tapping at the start then letting yourself go untill you finish the turn. As in cars I doubt hitting the brakes mid turn is the fastest way on a bike, and would also suggest starting slow and figuring out much grip your bike has as you work you speed up.

FYI I have found that mentally telling myself not to hit the brakes on the shallower DHs i run into XC riding is enough. All the time the bike just seems to grip and finish the turns.

short form

braking mid turn = bad
braking at the start = better

[Parvo]

there is no better feeling in DH than for your rubber gripping through a turn. keep your fingers off the levers, look through the turn, begin/set up your turn before getting to the berm, pedal out of the turn, and let her rip. The fear is all in your head, good tires will take your through, even at speed.

[davep]

I don't have much advice since I'm probably about the same level as you, working on the same things. But when I get that feeling of "I'm not turning enough!!" in a corner it's often because I haven't leaned my body enough to really commit to the turn. I get so focussed on leaning my bike that I forget I need to lean myself too.

You might already be doing this exercise, but it's helped me a ton and it's fun:
Pick a corner you want to rail
Walk up to some point a bit above it, and coast into the corner with no pedalling and no brakes
If you make it through the corner without braking, walk up and do it again from a bit higher so you'll have more speed. If you touch your brakes, do it again, or start from a bit lower.

Doing the same corner over and over makes it easier to figure out what you're doing wrong.

[Lonnie]

I am not a DH riders at all, but I have some experince with other forms of 'going' fast stuff.

IMO if you hitting the brakes in the middle of the turn trying tapping at the start then letting yourself go untill you finish the turn. As in cars I doubt hitting the brakes mid turn is the fastest way on a bike, and would also suggest starting slow and figuring out much grip your bike has as you work you speed up.

FYI I have found that mentally telling myself not to hit the brakes on the shallower DHs i run into XC riding is enough. All the time the bike just seems to grip and finish the turns.

short form

braking mid turn = bad
braking at the start = better

Bushwacker pretty much nailed it. Tigerstrip, it sounds like your bike is "pushing" or under steering. That happens when you are going to fast for the corner and/or turning the front wheel too much and/or not tipping the bike enough. You might not be able to do all of those at the same time....

Remeber,
Easy in, hard out.
Slow down to go faster,
and
Roll through the center (and off....)

[trainnvain]

A little float is ok (this is the part where you start to counter-pressure)

Best I can think of is:
practice getting the right speed before you enter the turn, brakes will get you upright.
A good finger touch in brakes to correct is ok (adjust your levers in so they are a lot weaker to train this. It's scary at first, but necessary)
Point to the exit with your Belly button with your eyes up (think mogul skiing with the "eyes up" part).

[kidwoo]

You might already be doing this exercise, but it's helped me a ton and it's fun:
Pick a corner you want to rail
Walk up to some point a bit above it, and coast into the corner with no pedalling and no brakes
If you make it through the corner without braking, walk up and do it again from a bit higher so you'll have more speed. If you touch your brakes, do it again, or start from a bit lower.


I can't wait to see you doing that at northstar and run you over. :D

[davep]

I can't wait to see you doing that at northstar and run you over. :D

Dont worry I'm not lame enough to do that when I drove 4 hours to ride chairlifts.

more of a lazy-day-in-santa-cruz kinda thing. and it really does help :redface:

[slave2gravity]

I definitely suffer the mental side of cornering. I come from an exclusive road background (bikes and motorcycles) where the traction and surface conditions are far more consistent. In MTBing, I struggle with learning the limits of my tires for the myriad of variable conditions I could encounter on a single trail from day to day. To that end, DaveP's advice is pretty solid. I'll go out to some of the more technical trails during the day when I'm sure no one will be around to watch me struggle and repeat the same sections over and over as I gain confidence.

Since we're on the topic (sort of) can anyone recommend a good pair of 2.3 tires for dry, deep dust conditions around the Bay Area? My new bike comes with WTB Prowlers and while I know I suck at riding I ordinarily know when I'm pushing past mine or the bike's limit. On these, I'm wiping out well before any indication that I've overstepped the limits. The tread is fairly shallow, widely spaced and four bumps straight across. Currently planning on swapping for a pair of Nevegals but have also heard them described as "slippery".

[trainnvain]

I definitely suffer the mental side of cornering. I come from an exclusive road background (bikes and motorcycles) where the traction and surface conditions are far more consistent. In MTBing, I struggle with learning the limits of my tires for the myriad of variable conditions I could encounter on a single trail from day to day. To that end, DaveP's advice is pretty solid. I'll go out to some of the more technical trails during the day when I'm sure no one will be around to watch me struggle and repeat the same sections over and over as I gain confidence.

Since we're on the topic (sort of) can anyone recommend a good pair of 2.3 tires for dry, deep dust conditions around the Bay Area? My new bike comes with WTB Prowlers and while I know I suck at riding I ordinarily know when I'm pushing past mine or the bike's limit. On these, I'm wiping out well before any indication that I've overstepped the limits. The tread is fairly shallow, widely spaced and four bumps straight across. Currently planning on swapping for a pair of Nevegals but have also heard them described as "slippery".

Paint me spam.

http://www.michelinbicycletire.com/michelinbicycle/index.cfm?event=mountainxtrem.view

BTW: the tread in the pic is not the tire (that's Adam gettin all stylie).
Image above is pattern (which can be cut same way as 24 DHs).

[tigerstripe40]

Thanks for your responses.
I should aslo not, that I am NOT locking the brakes. I rail the corner until it feels sketchy, then I simply tap the brakes and the bike comes around. I am usually standing as well.

and if it matters...

I am running a 2.7" Maxxis High Roller in the front and a 2.35" Maxxis Minion DH-R in the rear with Ghetto Tubeless. (not UST tires though)

[altagirl]

Here's my 2 cents.

What I'm reading that you're trying to do is just rail corners. That's fun, but I feel like there's a set speed that works at. It's like carving RR tracks on skis - it's a blast, but it's not an all purpose skill - it doesn't work everywhere, like on terrain that gets too steep and tight where you need to make short radius turns, etc. You can work on it and work on it, and get really good at looking through the corner, trusting your tires, letting go of the brakes, going in slower coming out faster, bike/body separation where you lean the bike over but keep your upper body perpendicular to the ground, blah blah blah. But it only goes so far.

My point is that the step beyond that is that you need to get more active. This is what Mr.AG has been getting me to work on a bunch recently. You pump into the turn, pushing the front wheel down for traction and pull out of the turn to set up for the next one. It's a high energy move, not just finding your line, leaning the bike and letting it cruise around the berm. It's like you're pumping through the turns, almost manualling out of the corner and pushing right back down into the next one and it lets you accellerate out of the corner and take tighter corners faster.

[Lev]

I think another way to think about what AG is saying here is to think about releasing the energy build up on the bike. Kind of like skiing, when you are setting up for a turn, your ski or bike has a certain amount of energy already pressed into it. Your ski might be flexed, or your bike shocks might be compressed a bit. By unweighting these things a little bit, you release the energy already building, and when it comes time to really make a hard turn, you get back down on it and maneuver your body in a way that you are centered and well balanced, compressing the ski or bike into the turn, maximizing the energy. As Gordy Pfeifer says when skiing, you should be in position to take a hit and not be thrown off. With arms and knees bent, knees a little bit outward, and shoulders ready for anything, you should try to flex into the turn. Whether it's skiing or biking, really try to bend into the turn and put all that energy back into it.

Also stated by AG, try pulling up a little bit coming out of the turn. Racers use this technique a lot and it's a way to actually accelerate out of the turn.

I'm not perfect at anything stated above, but these are things that go through my mind when I'm really trying to drill stuff.

[wanghoeby]

Unless the turns have decreasing radii, you should theoretically make it through without having to tap the brakes. Look up some info about the "traction circle." (http://www.teamassociated.com/racerhub/techhelp/marc/Handling.2.html) Basically the friction between the ground and your tire is fighting against 4 forces: right, left, braking, and accelerating. When coasting though a turn, it's all left or right. Tapping your brakes is adding extra force that could have been used as right or left (cornering) forces. So essentially, because you have the ability to brake in the turn, it means that you could have actually been going faster through the turn. Either that, or you are braking so lightly it's not really doing anything, in which case it is clearly a mental hindrance.

[telebobski]

I think about carving a turn on skis. I keep my butt off the saddle and pressure the outside pedal entering the corner This compresses the shock and rear triangle pretty much equally and keeps the center of gravity low. I can then pressure the bars (and shock) to help modulate the fore/aft traction and use my inside knee to help force more pressure into the corner. If its a set of multiple turns I try to get a few pedal strokes coming out then unweight the bike and use my hips to get the bike in line for the next corner. This works for me in all but the softest and slickest conditions.

Some questions - what generally happens when you crash in a corner? Do you go straight when the trail keeps turning? Are you washing out? Which end washes out first? Is the front wheel jamming? The answers will help you understand what you need to do differently. If the answer is "I haven't crashed much in corners" you can go faster.

[tigerstripe40]

Some questions - what generally happens when you crash in a corner? Do you go straight when the trail keeps turning? Are you washing out? Which end washes out first? Is the front wheel jamming? The answers will help you understand what you need to do differently. If the answer is "I haven't crashed much in corners" you can go faster.

I don't crash much in corners.
But what it feels like is that if I keep the line at the speed I am going, and I don't touch the brake, I am going to go straight at one point and pop out of the corner, going off the trail. ITs the point where I feel like I am going to pop out of the corner where I tap the brakes and I finish the turn. It's hard for me to describe.

I guess in the end what I really need is someone to watch me take a corner at speed and then coach me on how to corner better.

[The Reverend Floater]

This is a great thread and I thank all of you....

My question is this:

Do you recommend an order of things to work on...there is too much to concentrate on in one try.

i.e.

1. look through the turn
2. belly button
3. wait outside pedal
etc. etc. etc.

I've become much better at cornering simply by improving my eyes and chin position but I feel like I could improve a lot more if I could get a grasp on all this jive.

[altagirl]

I think looking through the corner is probably #1.

Weighting the outside pedal is important too, but the thing is you want the outside pedal down in longer corners, pedals level in tight fast corners (not enough time to be switching back and forth in quick zigzags), and the inside pedal forward in tight slow switchbacks.

I'd actually put bike/body separation as #2. (i.e. lean the bike, not your body - unless you're in a big berm, in which case you lean your body equivalent to the grade you're riding on) So basically - this is a skill for flatter turns, not big berms. And it's a lot like angulating vs. banking on skis... And helps with the whole weighting the outside pedal thing. If you're totally leaned over with your bike in a turn, you're pushing the outside pedal out, not down into the ground where you can get traction.

And then pushing the front tire/pumping through turns as #3.

Order probably isn't as important, but you'll just go nuts if you try to focus on all of that at the same time. Pick one, work on it for a while, move on...

[Lonnie]

Unless the turns have decreasing radii, you should theoretically make it through without having to tap the brakes.

That works if the surface is flat. I the surface is on an incline (decline), like most mtb trails, it doesn't work as gravity will accelerate you as you move through the turn. It also doesn't take into account any banking the trail might have (being positive or negatively banked and if that banking changes throughout the turn...)

Shit, this place is starting to sound like epicski....

[marshalolson]

everytime you want to tap your brakes, dip your outside foot instead, and then pull it up and pedal out. this brings more weight to the rear wheel and makes the bike turn a little tighter, as well as excellerate.

[altagirl]

I don't crash much in corners.
But what it feels like is that if I keep the line at the speed I am going, and I don't touch the brake, I am going to go straight at one point and pop out of the corner, going off the trail. ITs the point where I feel like I am going to pop out of the corner where I tap the brakes and I finish the turn. It's hard for me to describe.

I guess in the end what I really need is someone to watch me take a corner at speed and then coach me on how to corner better.

Chances are it's a combination of a bunch of the stuff mentioned here. Your best bet is to just pick one thing to work on at a time and try to ingrain it as a habit. It takes a lot of work and practice to make it happen without thinking about it - I wish you could just know what you're supposed to be doing and do it, but I don't think it works like that for anybody.

[Dromond]

I think looking through the corner is probably #1....

I was going to say the same thing. Just the other day I was having problems understeering on my XC bike. They were rapid fire turns but totally doable. I just couldn't seem to keep the bike on the trail. I ended up riding the same loop a few times and just forcing myself to look as far down the trail as possible at all times. I had a lot of improvement; subconsciously focusing on the turn itself rather than where I want to be going is what was causing the problem in the first place.

I feel that with mountain biking 9 times in 10 the only thing preventing you from doing something is the lack of full commitment. It's so much easier than it should be once you do...

[altagirl]

I was going to say the same thing. Just the other day I was having problems understeering on my XC bike. They were rapid fire turns but totally doable. I just couldn't seem to keep the bike on the trail. I ended up riding the same loop a few times and just forcing myself to look as far down the trail as possible at all times. I had a lot of improvement; subconsciously focusing on the turn itself rather than where I want to be going is what was causing the problem in the first place.

I feel that with mountain biking 9 times in 10 the only thing preventing you from doing something is the lack of full commitment. It's so much easier than it should be once you do...

Yeah - I noticed that last night too. I went to I street and was practicing corners on these big berms down low and noticed I kept slowing down on the last corner. And it occurred to me that the real problem is that after the last big sweeping berm, you just stop (or loop back uphill into the line of people hitting jumps on the other line, which isn't good). That's the end of the "trail", and therefore I didn't have anywhere to look through or focus on going once I got to the middle of that corner and therefore wasn't hitting it as hard as I should have.

[MESKIBUM]

There's a book A Twist fo the Wrist by Keith Code that may help you. It greatly improved my MC handling, and also my MB handling. He talks about traction forces and how to carry speed through a corner. Granted, there's mechanical acceleration, and pavement, but the same physics still apply. There's only so much traction that can be had for cornering. I think that it will help you.

http://www.atwistofthewrist.com/

Going Faster is another book that is used in the Skip Barber school of racing. It was also helpful, but I still think that the first book is more specific and will give you skills for your situation.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006A9I2A?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=sz-video-20&linkCode=asn

Good luck and post up what helps you. A friend with a video camera is one of the best ways to see what you're doing right and wrong. Also watching the pros in Mountain Bike Movies also helps, but the home camera lets you see what you're doing.